| Tricky Micky |
...looks good value...think I'll be ordering one of these in the next few weeks...
www.diyparadise.com/charlize.html
Includes Elna Cerafine input caps and Rubycon "Super Low ESR" power supply caps...all for $80...built...!!! |
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| Nuuk |
| Interesting! They're springing up llke daisies all ove rthe place! :D |
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| JWFokker |
| Nice. The use of Cerafine caps and low ESR power caps looks good. I think I might pick one up, considering I was just going to load the Amp6 up with Cerafines once it became available. |
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| kanaddict |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Interesting! They're springing up llke daisies all ove rthe place! :D |
Yes,
It's a good thing, but at the same time it just give me some hard time. I was already strugling with myself when trying to make a decision between 41hz kit and autoconstruire kit, now there is a tird possibility ........ :rolleyes: |
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| sx881663 |
Daniel,
This new kit looks good except for the output inductor. I am still suspicious of kits using through hole parts. The added inductance can be a real problem. I have a good friend doing one of the 41Hz kits with this chip. I did most all the surface mount stuff for him as he did not have the proper soldering equipment. Watching me then using my tools he had no trouble doing a few of them himself. If he can do it most anyone could as well. The main trick is to only anchor one end of the component till you have it aligned to the pads.
Don’t let the surface mount stuff scare you off from a very good kit.
Roger |
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| kanaddict |
| quote: | Originally posted by sx881663
Daniel,
This new kit looks good except for the output inductor. I am still suspicious of kits using through hole parts. The added inductance can be a real problem. I have a good friend doing one of the 41Hz kits with this chip. I did most all the surface mount stuff for him as he did not have the proper soldering equipment. Watching me then using my tools he had no trouble doing a few of them himself. If he can do it most anyone could as well. The main trick is to only anchor one end of the component till you have it aligned to the pads.
Don’t let the surface mount stuff scare you off from a very good kit.
Roger |
Roger,
thanks for sharing your experience. Your comment about the new kit inductors is very interesting. This is the kind of thing I'm not able to see by myself.
Yes, surface mount is part of the problem, but it's not only because I'm scared by how little are the parts. It's also because I don't have a proper soldering Iron (25W).
Your not the first to mention that it's better to use surfacemount parts. But, we got a few positive review of the autoconstruire kit and 41Hz will soon offer a kit using through hole parts. I would love that someone make a comparative listening of all these kit !
You have a good knowledge of this kind of amp, I would like to know if there is possible problem related to the use of a quality switched power supply ? Any possible dommage to the amp ?
I don't know much about this kind of Power supply and I bought one on ebay yesterday.
Thanks ! |
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| Nuuk |
Daniel,
I am about a quarter of the the way through building an AMP-3 kit and I have to say it is not something that I ever want to repeat. It's just too fiddly and time consuming!
OK, I accept that shortest signal paths mean SMD but there is SMD and SMD and if something is sold as a kit to be soldered up at home, it is a bit daft using the very smallest SMD components. I guess 41Hz have realised this and that's why they are now offering the non-SMD versions.
I hope it is worth all the effort because the Autostriure amp is VERY good, despite not using SMD parts.
I have also used an SMPS with both the Autostriure amp and SI T-AMP without any ill-effects. In fact, I think it is the best PSU that I have used with both the class D amps and the Gainclones. ;) |
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| sx881663 |
Daniel,
I will try to address all your questions. Comparing amps won’t mean much if they don’t have basically the same parts. I feel the air core inductors and better output filter caps give the autoconstruire an unfair advantage. If the 41Hz had the same parts I think it would show its advantages of surface mount parts and short signal paths very well.
If you are into the DIY thing and plan on doing much building you need to buy a decent soldering station. A used Metcal station from eBay would be less than the new price of others and would be better. The tip is much closer to the handle and gives you better control. Also the lower heat is less likely to damage anything. This is possible because the heating element is right on the tip and don’t waste much power back into the handle. Also the temperature is very closely controlled and more power is supplied as needed to maintain the temperature. Once you have used one you won’t go back!
Ah, switch mode supplies, a favorite subject of mine. Most of the ones I have checked out are adjustable or can made so easily. I feel they are considerably superior to all but the best linear supplies. The reasons are many but the main one is lack of noise in the audio band. This means deeper sound stages and things within it are more in focus. The excellent regulation most have means solid and tuneful bass. The only thing about then is that they don’t have much energy storage at the output. What I do and recommend is a large buffer cap on the output between it and the amp. I have used 10,000-33,000uf @ 16v to good effect. I don’t know how much is needed for good bass as I use a sub in my system.
Roger |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | The reasons are many but the main one is lack of noise in the audio band. This means deeper sound stages and things within it are more in focus. The excellent regulation most have means solid and tuneful bass. The only thing about then is that they don’t have much energy storage at the output. What I do and recommend is a large buffer cap on the output between it and the amp. I have used 10,000-33,000uf @ 16v to good effect. |
I'll second all that Roger. I'm using the Class D amps in my second system sans subwoofer and I can tell you that with a 10K cap on the output of the SMPS, there is plenty of bass! :) |
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| jkeny |
I have acouple of ERO caps 10,000uF I pulled out of a facit electronic typewriter. Only probelem (and advantage) is they are four ole ould body help describing how one could be connected at output of SMPS feeding t-amp?
John |
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| sx881663 |
| quote: | Originally posted by jkeny
I have acouple of ERO caps 10,000uF I pulled out of a facit electronic typewriter. Only probelem (and advantage) is they are four ole ould body help describing how one could be connected at output of SMPS feeding t-amp?
John |
John,
See attached drawing.
Roger |
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| sx881663 |
John,
I have seen those ads too. It would be a cheap way out if they have enough power. Try it and let us know.
Roger |
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| kanaddict |
| quote: | Originally posted by sx881663
Daniel,
I will try to address all your questions. Comparing amps won’t mean much if they don’t have basically the same parts. I feel the air core inductors and better output filter caps give the autoconstruire an unfair advantage. If the 41Hz had the same parts I think it would show its advantages of surface mount parts and short signal paths very well. |
I understand your point. If someone want to upgrade the kit, then the 41Hz is the way to go (according to what youmentionned). If someone just want ot buy a kit and us it as it is, then the autoconstruire kit make sence.
| quote: | Originally posted by sx881663
If you are into the DIY thing and plan on doing much building you need to buy a decent soldering station. |
Well, I'm into DIY thing but my passion is more speakers oriented. I like woodworking and building speakers is something I have fun to do. I have built a microphone pream (Walling) and BrianGT NIGC, but that's it. I have tryed to change the input cap of a SI T-amp, but I "fry" the chip (one channel). So, my electronic experiences are limited and I don't have a good record with SM parts :D
| quote: | Originally posted by sx881663
Ah, switch mode supplies, a favorite subject of mine. Most of the ones I have checked out are adjustable or can made so easily. I feel they are considerably superior to all but the best linear supplies. The reasons are many but the main one is lack of noise in the audio band. This means deeper sound stages and things within it are more in focus. The excellent regulation most have means solid and tuneful bass. |
Great to read that ! I decided to buy a second one for a second amp to be build. I have bought 2 power supply but no kit yet ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by sx881663
The only thing about then is that they don’t have much energy storage at the output. What I do and recommend is a large buffer cap on the output between it and the amp. I have used 10,000-33,000uf @ 16v to good effect. I don’t know how much is needed for good bass as I use a sub in my system.
Roger |
I'll start to look for good 10,000 uf cap. If I find some but with more the 16v rating, is it ok to buy them ? I would think that this is not much of a problem as from my experience with x-over cap, a bigger v rating = better sound.
Thanks a lot, your comments are very helpfull ! |
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| kanaddict |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Daniel,
I am about a quarter of the the way through building an AMP-3 kit and I have to say it is not something that I ever want to repeat. It's just too fiddly and time consuming! |
You realy don't make me feel ready for this kit :D
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
OK, I accept that shortest signal paths mean SMD but there is SMD and SMD and if something is sold as a kit to be soldered up at home, it is a bit daft using the very smallest SMD components. I guess 41Hz have realised this and that's why they are now offering the non-SMD versions.
I hope it is worth all the effort because the Autostriure amp is VERY good, despite not using SMD parts. |
I look forward, hopping that you'll make a big report of what you will hear. Do you upgrade the 41Hz kit or do you build it as it is ?
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
I have also used an SMPS with both the Autostriure amp and SI T-AMP without any ill-effects. In fact, I think it is the best PSU that I have used with both the class D amps and the Gainclones. ;) |
You just confirmed what Roger said. I'm anxioux to get the 2 power supply I ordered and see how well built they are. when the amp will be built, I'll compare these power supply to a $10 1.5 amp power supply I have. I want to hear the difference ;)
Thanks ! |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | I look forward, hopping that you'll make a big report of what you will hear. Do you upgrade the 41Hz kit or do you build it as it is ? |
To begin with, I will be reviewing it as it comes.
| quote: | | I'll compare these power supply to a $10 1.5 amp power supply I have. I want to hear the difference |
This is the only real way to find out about these issues! ;) I have compared a cheapish plug-in supply, my LM338 regulated supply, a small SLA battery and the SMPS. That doesn't make me an expert but it does tell me which works best for me in my system. :att'n: |
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| KT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
...I have also used an SMPS with both the Autostriure amp and SI T-AMP without any ill-effects. In fact, I think it is the best PSU that I have used with both the class D amps and the Gainclones. ;) |
Nuuk,
I'm very interested in your switching supply findings.
What switching mode supply are you using?
Have you found any major differences is SMPSs? What to look for when trying to choose one over the other, and what makes for good sonics in these?
Thanks,
KT |
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| DirkD |
Hi there
I really don't know what the fuss is about SMD components. It is not that hard to solder SMD components, and the 0805 parts supplied by 41HZ is more than big enough to solder well without any problems. Yes, you need a temp controlled soldering iron with fine tip, but if you are into DIY audio you should have one in any case. Try the Quick soldering stations if available in your country. It is an exact copy of the Hako for VERY little money. They are about $50 in South Africa. They have very fine tips and very efficient temp control.
Maybe I will do a Wiki on SMD soldering if there is enough interest.
Regards
Dirk |
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| Nuuk |
KT - I am no expert on SMPS and have only tried one, and that only because it was offered to me to try (I was a sceptic and wouldn't have bought one).
You can read about that one here . ;) |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | I really don't know what the fuss is about SMD components. |
Each to his own opinion and we all have skills that others may not have. Personally, spending five minutes just to get a single component out of its packaging is enough to put me off even before the damn thing decides to go any place except over those tiny pads!
All I am saying is that for a majority of diyers, ie those who don't work in electronics, I would not recommend that they try making something so intricate. As I said before, I think Jan at 41Hz has come to the same conclusion, hence his new kits! ;) |
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| Tricky Micky |
I was originally considering purchasing the Autocostruire kit but have been put off by the use of through hole components for 'all' the parts...I feel (with my admittedly limited knowledge) that the 'house keeping' elements of the design in a switching amplifier are far more suited to SMD components...surely (on through hole components) the size of the parts and leads coming from them must be susceptible to noise pick up...?
But the thought of soldering all these SMD parts (as per 41Hz) isn’t to appealing either…!
Another part of the Autocostruire kit which concerns me is the air core inductors...surely (and again my limited knowledge comes into play) a 10µH air cored inductor should look more like a doughnut...? The ones being offered by Autocostruire are barley any bigger than the standard ‘cored’ ones on the Sonic Impact…or am I getting my m’s and µ’s mixed up again…?
I think the ideal is a partially built kit with all the SMD components being pre-assembled...and the item (directly) in the signal path being left as through hole, allowing people to 'tune' the sound using their favourite boutique components.
I'm sure it won’t be long until this daisy pops up...but who can wait...the DIY Paradise kit appears the closest to my ideal at the present time…and with a little work (winding some better inductors etc) will be as close as I can expect for £50.00. |
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| t. |
I'm currently using one of NUUKs SMPS to power my Amp3.
I've also used 12v 7ah/20k caps and a LM338 regulated supply.
For me NUUKs SMPS was the best, its also very compact
The hardest thing for me regarding the Amp3 kit was soldering the actual Tripath chip, one of those special smd I/C bits for the iron would have helped.
The only other thing is if you want to upgrade the components, I don't think something like Caddocks for the fb resistors would be possible:D
It is a good sounding Amp though especially for the price |
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| vt4c |
| Check with Yeo at DIY Paradise on the air-core inductor. He might be able to offer you as an upgrade. |
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| theAnonymous1 |
| quote: | | The hardest thing for me regarding the Amp3 kit was soldering the actual Tripath chip |
The way I have always soldered IC's like the Tripath chip is to first, make sure the pins are lined up with the pads, then completely cover all the pins with solder.
After they are covered it should look like two long solder strips, one on each side.
Now take some solder wick and pick up all the extra solder on top of the pins. If done correclty the IC will be left with just the right amount of solder under each pin. ;) |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | If done correclty the IC will be left with just the right amount of solder under each pin. |
That worked well for me on one side of the chip but not on the other, I can't get the solder out from between the pins no matter how hard I try!
Don't call on me if you need brain surgery! :D |
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| theAnonymous1 |
| quote: | | That worked well for me on one side of the chip but not on the other, I can't get the solder out from between the pins no matter how hard I try! |
WTFLUX!!!! You need more flux! |
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| t. |
| Yes, I also managed to solder two pins together, adding a bit of flux paste to the desolder braid soon got rid of it:D |
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| Nuuk |
| I'll try the flux then! :smash: |
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| kanaddict |
| quote: | Originally posted by vt4c
Check with Yeo at DIY Paradise on the air-core inductor. He might be able to offer you as an upgrade. |
Hi,
any good words about DIY Paradise ?
I just looked at some images of the setup he used to listen to the amp1. It's hard to think that a amp can be tested with speakers located on some PVC chairs. :eek:
A descent installation is something needed. Am I the only one concern about this :rolleyes:
Maybe it's just a temporary setup and he have a good one for the real thing :confused:
Regards,
Daniel |
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| t. |
| quote: | Originally posted by kanaddict
Hi,
any good words about DIY Paradise ?
I just looked at some images of the setup he used to listen to the amp1. It's hard to think that a amp can be tested with speakers located on some PVC chairs. :eek:
A descent installation is something needed. Am I the only one concern about this :rolleyes:
Maybe it's just a temporary setup and he have a good one for the real thing :confused:
Regards,
Daniel |
Well it looks like somebody shops at Tesco's:D
Its nice to see that not all amps have to be used in the optimal set-up/enviroment to get good results |
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| Panelhead |
| quote: | Originally posted by kanaddict
Hi,
any good words about DIY Paradise ?
I just looked at some images of the setup he used to listen to the amp1. It's hard to think that a amp can be tested with speakers located on some PVC chairs. :eek:
A descent installation is something needed. Am I the only one concern about this :rolleyes:
Maybe it's just a temporary setup and he have a good one for the real thing :confused:
Regards,
I have purchased from Yeo, a Monica II. It worked perfectly, and was a great value. He is very honest, and can be trusted.
As far as his set-up, looks nicer than mine. Love the speaker stands. His speaker wires are better than mine too.
George
Daniel |
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| JWFokker |
| Anyone know what kind of drivers those are? They look like Corals, but I can't tell with that low resolution picture. At any rate, aside from all the **** piled behind his audio hardware, they do look pretty good. |
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| kanaddict |
| quote: | Originally posted by JWFokker
Anyone know what kind of drivers those are? They look like Corals, but I can't tell with that low resolution picture. At any rate, aside from all the **** piled behind his audio hardware, they do look pretty good. |
My concern was more about the "speaker stands" as I don't juge any audio component only at the way they look. I'm into DIY and know that the important thing is how it sound ! It's just that PVC chair don't make stable stands and this can affect the sound. |
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| Panelhead |
| quote: | Originally posted by kanaddict
My concern was more about the "speaker stands" as I don't juge any audio component only at the way they look. I'm into DIY and know that the important thing is how it sound ! It's just that PVC chair don't make stable stands and this can affect the sound. |
Those are Coral 6's in a BR box. Look on his website to see a pair of 8's.
George |
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| Nuuk |
Daniel, I don't think that you should read anything into that picture, other than that like most of us, when you can't wait to try out something new, that sort of set-up is often the first step!
I'm quite happy to see that sort of picture as it says to me that he has nothing to hide! ;) |
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| kanaddict |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Daniel, I don't think that you should read anything into that picture, other than that like most of us, when you can't wait to try out something new, that sort of set-up is often the first step!
I'm quite happy to see that sort of picture as it says to me that he has nothing to hide! ;) |
Thanks Nuuk,
you are right about our urgent need to listen to what we build. Last april I went to a friend house to compare my GC to his Arcam and the GC case was not finish. No face plate with the Pot temporary fixed to one size....nothing very appealing...but the GC sounded better ;) |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | you are right about our urgent need to listen to what we build. Last april I went to a friend house to compare my GC to his Arcam and the GC case was not finish. No face plate with the Pot temporary fixed to one size....nothing very appealing...but the GC sounded better |
Well then you should understand that 'honest' picture at DiyParadise. As I said before when people have nothing to hide I tend to trust them rather than get suspicious! ;) |
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| kanaddict |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Well then you should understand that 'honest' picture at DiyParadise. As I said before when people have nothing to hide I tend to trust them rather than get suspicious! ;) |
I'll try to remember that next time :angel:
:) |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | I'll try to remember that next time |
Good man but don't get too trusting, there are some sharks out there! :eek:
It's just better to judge them by their products than their photos! ;) Of course, I would have preferred to have seen those speakers on a nice pair of Windsor chairs! :rolleyes: |
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| sx881663 |
Guys,
None of the cosmetics matter! As long as he has high enough resolution to actually reproduce differences and uses good scientific procedures in his testing he can reach some accurate conclusions. The only proviso being colorations as these could really mess things up and give confusing results. I have seen this time and time again. This could be having a real tizzy sounding CD player and compensating for it with cables that roll off the high end. A whole system tuned this way can sound ok but will not be right. Any substitutions into this system will kill the original sonic balance no matter how good the component being put in is. There are no easy solutions for this. The only accurate reference we can compare to is live acoustic music and this is a little hard to do in ones home. I once had a violin played in my music room and was astounded at what it told me! Obviously we can’t all do this but there are other possibilities, a small cymbal or drum should work. Have someone else between your speakers make the sounds and you sit in your normal position. A real eye opener!
Let’s not loose track of the goal here, great, moving and inspiring music complete with goose bumps! If you can’t read the emotion in it, it isn’t good enough! Even some boom boxes can do this, shouldn’t we strive for more?
Roger |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | If you can’t read the emotion in it, it isn’t good enough! |
Roger, I am shortly to have something published so I wanted to say that I submitted it before reading that statement (as it is a rather similar sentiment!). ;) |
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| sx881663 |
Nuuk,
I am happy to see I am not alone in this! My feelings are if it doesn’t move you what is the point?
As to the other problem of system tuning, if you can think of a good answer I would certainly appreciate hearing it.
Where will you be published? I would like to read it when it is done. In fact I will even proof it for you if you like, had some experience there.
Roger |
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| mb |
Having built a number of Amp3 kits, I'd like to offer some comments:
- the fiddly nature and small size of SMT devices is a fact of life, and I expect more kits will have them in future
- my first amp worked, even though my soldering skills are low, and I'm not great at following instructions. If I had read 41hz instructions more carefully, I'd have done a better job. The pcb was eventually damaged by my stupidity, but the build quality of the pcb was such that I was able to salvage it with minor repair
- after the 1st kit, the subequent kits are almost easy to build. They require concentration, but in some ways doing SMT forces you to be clean and careful
What's most important for me is that Jan has quietly demonstrated that he has put in careful engineering thought into the kits. The rationale behind his decisions on parts and layout seems based on experience, feedback from users and most importantly, in consultation with Tripath's technical staff. That's important for me. It's one thing that I don't have the gear to measure distortion, etc, etc, but it's critical for me that the kit designer understands class-D and has the benefit of working with the vendor's technical resources.
I'm in no position to comment on the other offerings, but my $0.02 worth is that designing a class-D kit requires a lot more understanding and care than, say, a chipamp kit. |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | Where will you be published? I would like to read it when it is done. In fact I will even proof it for you if you like, had some experience there. |
Hi Roger, the article will be for TNT (there, now I have 'come out' :D ). And thanks for the proof-reading offer that I will be pleased to take-up! ;) |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | - the fiddly nature and small size of SMT devices is a fact of life, and I expect more kits will have them in future |
I agree, and it's all the more frustrating that I cocked up the AMP-3! If I can find the time, I will have to try and find a way to practise my SMD soldering!
| quote: | | What's most important for me is that Jan has quietly demonstrated that he has put in careful engineering thought into the kits. |
Yes, reading the site, he seems to be more than qualified/informed to make a good class-T amp! And the boards are of good quality. Haiving messed around with my Philips CD723, the 41Hz boards are almost indestructible in comparison!
| quote: | | I'm in no position to comment on the other offerings, but my $0.02 worth is that designing a class-D kit requires a lot more understanding and care than, say, a chipamp kit. |
Are you talking other commercial class-T amps here, or 'home-brew'? I know of at least one other very good (commercial) class-T amp! And time moves on and in a few years we may well find a lot of 'home-brew' class-T amp designs on the forums (from people a lot cleverer than me, I may add). ;) |
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| KT |
| quote: | Originally posted by t.
I'm currently using one of NUUKs SMPS to power my Amp3.
I've also used 12v 7ah/20k caps and a LM338 regulated supply.
For me NUUKs SMPS was the best, its also very compact... |
Nuuk and t.
Thanks for the information on the SMPS. I've been using a 12v 12AH SLA to power my Nixon DacKit and it sounds really good to my ears. I find it interesting that you find the SMPS superior to the SLA.
I've put in an order for the Monica II DAC and the Charlize T-amp from Yeo. I'll try them with the SLAs I have, first, and then try them out with the SMPS you guys mentioned.
I got the Charlize amp from Yeo because I thought it would be an easier way to get into one of the quality class-T amp kits. I also seriously considered the AMP3, but was slightly put off by soldering the SMDs. Not that I mind working with small parts, but knowing me it would be a while before I get enough of an itch to sit down and tackle it. I figure it would take me a not insignificant chunk of time to do it right.
That said, I will probably get one or two AMP3s at some point. Given that you can get 3 kits for less than the price of one Charlize I was torn, especially since no one knows, yet, how each sounds compared to the other. The price difference was kind of big for me - $55 difference between an assembled Charlize board and an unassembled AMP3, but I went for the assembled one.
Just out of curiousity, how long did it take you guys to finish the AMP3?
I have lots of conventional soldering experience, but next to no SMD soldering experience, so I'd be most interested in hearing from those with a similar background (as well as from everyone else :) ).
BTW- even with the time and difficulty issues with soldering, I'd be more inclined to get the AMP3 with all the SMDs rather than a similar kit from 41Hz that used through hole parts. With all the talk of inductance, etc., to me it just seems more "right" for this type thing, though who knows how it affects sonics?
OK, thanks!
KT |
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| kanaddict |
| quote: | Originally posted by KT
BTW- even with the time and difficulty issues with soldering, I'd be more inclined to get the AMP3 with all the SMDs rather than a similar kit from 41Hz that used through hole parts. With all the talk of inductance, etc., to me it just seems more "right" for this type thing, though who knows how it affects sonics?
OK, thanks!
KT |
KT,
this is exaclty the question I have in mind "how it affects sonics?".
The Autoconstruire kit dont use SMD parts and it get very good review. When reading comments like this :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...2978#post682978
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...3417#post683417
I ask myself if SMD worth the extra pain. I have no problem thinking that a well built amp3 with autoconstruire inductors would sound better then the Autoconstruire kit, but how much better :confused:
We'll have to wait Nuuk review to have an answer to our question.
Regards, |
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| Joseph K |
| quote: | | Just out of curiousity, how long did it take you guys to finish the AMP3? |
Ehm, it took me one [short] evening to assemble the AMP1. It took another [loong] evening to simultaneously assemble two AMP3 kits. And I have cursed even the grand grand father of the founder of tripath.. and Jan, as well.. after having wound 8 [EIGHT] small size toroids... and I had our workshop tools, Metcal solder station with smd tweezers, all sort of soldersuckers, and magnifying glass with light.
So, my feeling is, that the AMP3 kit is not for the lighthearted. But it's a beautiful little kit, technically speaking. And works well.
On the contrary, I don't see why the AMP1 should pose any serious problems in assembling. It's easy and fast, less toroids, no stinking dead beetle to solder. And it's a more serious looking amp. How it compares, it's too soon for me to speak up.
Ciao, George |
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| Nuuk |
But George, did you have access to the wonderful Decibel Dungeon SMD construction jig? (Note the high-tech pre-heating):D 
I did but I still failed to complete the AMP-3 kit :bawling:
I am now consoling myself by winding the inductors! :dead: |
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| Joseph K |
Nuuk, it's genial! Me, being less able, turned to the Metcal station instead...
But I think, You .. YOU Deviated from the assembly instructions!!!
You started with the chip...:smash:
He he.. imagine that, positioning that chip with all the other caps sticking around..
Wait, maybe I understood one thing: it's Really Hard to manage these tiny bits while wearing glowes made of asbestos...:bawling: :bawling:
Ciao, George |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | You started with the chip... |
No George, I did all the small SMD parts first and then the chip. I had no problem getting the chip secured in place and got one side soldered nicely. But the other side....... :bigeyes: :hot: :bawling:
| quote: | | Wait, maybe I understood one thing: it's Really Hard to manage these tiny bits while wearing glowes made of asbestos... |
You mean that you don't wear them? :eek: No wonder that you make these kits so quickly! ;) |
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| Joseph K |
I did not wear them, but only because I am a law-obedient type..
So, burnt fingers but no asbestos!!
Ciao, George |
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| BWRX |
| quote: | Originally posted by KT
Just out of curiousity, how long did it take you guys to finish the AMP3?
I have lots of conventional soldering experience, but next to no SMD soldering experience, so I'd be most interested in hearing from those with a similar background (as well as from everyone else :) ). |
I had the exact same experience as you before I worked on my first AMP3. In all honesty, the first try at it was fairly long and painful (took me approximately 5 hours with a large tip iron and no magnifying glass to get all parts soldered) and resulted in the death of a TA2024 chip :xeye: but it also helped me to figure out a much better technique to solder the little parts and the chip - that and i got a finer chisel tip and conical tip for my iron :). My second kit was assembled much more quickly in about 3 hours and the only things I didn't get to were winding and soldering the toroids to the board. It also had much better looking solder joints all around. I find the best way to solder SMD is to position the part on the pads, hold the part using a tweezer with your left hand, get a small dab of solder on the tip of your iron, and "tack" one side of the part to one pad. Then you can just apply enough heat to the joint on the other side, get a little solder in there to make a nice clean joint, and go back and do the other side. For the chip I went down and heated each pad and pin and applied a little solder not worrying if it flowed onto other pins. When both sides were finished like that go back and cut a section of solder braid the length of one side of the chip, hold it on the pins with tweezers, apply heat with your iron and suck all the excess solder onto the braid. You can also go back and heat each pad/pin with the iron to make sure it made a good joint. Check with a magnifying glass to make sure there aren't any solder bridges between pins... that's what caused the chip in my first amp to let out the magic smoke.
My overall advice would be to give it a try. You'd have to try pretty hard to mess up the AMP3 pcb and Jan is gracious enough to let you order replacement parts if they somehow become inoperable for whatever reason ;)
Brian |
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| DonJuan |
hi guys
this is yeo from diyparadise.com posting under the moniker "donjuan". you can guess where i was heading, until i was turned on by tube curves. :D
letting the cat out of the bag, we just tested charlize with aircore inductors and result is promising. however, how you wind them is critical! since we don't know much, we decide to leave winding inductors to a much more qualified vendor.
once he figures out how much to skin the hide off our back :rolleyes:, we'll do the accounting and add to the sales price of charlize. most probably we'll just offer an upgrade.
as for my unsightly speaker stand, do understand that i was in the process of moving house and had to clear one room (my store room) for another housemate. please don't tell my wife about this as she's been constantly nagging me about my place and you guys are going to make it worse for me!
once i move into my new home (estimate this weekend), i'll settle down everything and put up a much much better setup, with much prettier speaker stands. dont' worry about the testing part as i don't test anything at home right now. it's all tested at my business partners' place.
(btw, i like stuffs that sound great on those cheapo speaker stands. if it requires stands that cost 2 arms, 2 legs and a torso, that's murder!)
the drivers are corals. imho a much much better driver than it has been given credit for. i just attended a hifi show over the weekend and i feel that the humble flat 6 (among other coral drivers) can **** the pants off so many of those commercial
offerings. and these were built more than 20 years ago! so much for progress...
ta da!
donjuan |
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| rjb |
I have nearly completed my fourth Amp3 kit. It gets easier each time. I used a thirty watt iron, and the special holding down tool shown above, but no below board heater. Jan has good instructions for soldering on his website, and I can confirm its not difficult with care;-
1) use very fine tipped iron, (I had to sharpen mine from the original pencil point to make it small enough), and use the absolute minimum amount of solder each time. Clean iron after every joint. Use magnifier glasses and bright light, or magnifing lamp, at least 3x power. (I used the latter). Don't drink coffee or coke beforehand as these tend to make your hands shake.
2) Install all small components first, then chip, then tubular Caps and inductors
3) For SMDs. preflux both pads, if necessary heating each pad with dry iron to spread flux. (I used conventional grease type flux in a can, because I had it. Use only a very little. Flux pens may be better). Put very small drop of solder on one pad (use the thinest fluxed solder wire available. Remove excess with solder wick if necessary). Position SMD, but just not touching this pad. Heat pad to melt solder, slide smd into position, using slightly downward pressure, far enough so a good portion of second pad is showing. I use a wooden toothpick on top of component to push smd around. Molten solder will tend to pull smd to position by surface tension, and also tend to tilt it if not held down. I found using tweezers good for initial positioning, but too shaky for this final stage.
Heat second pad, (not SMD) and apply small amount of solder.
4) Chip is best done with solder paste and hot air, but conventional soldering OK, using minimum solder. Again preflux pads, and prepare two diagonally oposite corners with very small solder mounds. Preflux these mounds again. Position chip, and use a dry iron to solder each of these corners with the solder you placed on the pad, pressing down on chip. Check position of chip very carefully as after this it is not removable. (I mucked up my first kit at this point, tried to reposition it after soldering more than two legs, and pulled a pad off with solderwick because of too cool an iron). Solder each leg with minimum solder. Check carefully with strong magnifying glass to ensure no bridging.
5) the inductors are best done by threading the wire through to mid way, and winding half at a time.
It sounds difficult, but in fact it is not, and the results are well worth it. SMDs are now very common, so its useful to learn how to handle these, and the kit is cheap enough after all. |
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| MrDodo |
I am a complete newbie in DIY and AMP3 was the first attempt at assembling a kit. Not the easiest way for a start I guess.
The hardest part was of course soldering the chip
What I do to keep the Tripath chip on the board is using Blue Tack. |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | I am a complete newbie in DIY and AMP3 was the first attempt at assembling a kit. |
Respect! ;) |
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| MrDodo |
Here is a pic of my assembled amp3 in an acrylic/Ebony casing.
Forgive the mess with the wires and of course the pot is dirty cheap.
I wanted to use a good pot/stepped attenuator but there's none here and unfortunately I can't use paypal, so I haven't been able to get someone sell me one with alternative payment method.
Ikobo, credit card...
If someone wants to sell me a good pot like Noble, Alps Blue or even better Stepped Att. kit like the one on ebay by kuo kyc, that would be nice. |
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| MrDodo |
Here's also a pic of my expander that allows me to connect three source to the amp3.
Again made with acrylic, easy to work with and Ebony.
Please forgive the verrrry low resolution, pic taken by phone camera.
I originally wanted to put a pot in it, that would have made it a passive pre-amp, but again no good pot... |
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| Andypairo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Respect! ;) |
I can't but agree.
I always smiled when reading people's complaints about those SMD parts being so tiny... until I got my 41Hz Amp3 kits.
Now I'm a bit scared :smash:
Will let you know how things go.
Cheers
Andrea |
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| Nuuk |
Hi MrDodo,
The cost of real ebony over here would be more than the cost of the amp! ;) But it looks very good.
How about making a stepped attenuator. If you made that AMP-3 kit, making an attenuator will seem easy in comparison! You can read how to make one here . ;) |
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| soongsc |
| quote: | Originally posted by Andypairo
I can't but agree.
I always smiled when reading people's complaints about those SMD parts being so tiny... until I got my 41Hz Amp3 kits.
Now I'm a bit scared :smash:
Will let you know how things go.
Cheers
Andrea |
My AMP2 should be comming in soon, I wonder how much work can be done in the oven. |
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| MrDodo |
SMD are small but, are really workable.
If I have been able to do it, complete newbe, anyone can do it!
I even used a basic gun type 30W soldering iron, but very fine tip,
no soldering station or anything fancy.
Another tool needed is just a tweezer, without which no amp3.
By the way Nuuk, thanks for the link for stepped attenuator.
The only thing is to find metal resistors. Remember I'm in mauritius.
:cannotbe: |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | By the way Nuuk, thanks for the link for stepped attenuator.
The only thing is to find metal resistors. Remember I'm in mauritius. |
No problem, just use the coconut type! :rolleyes: Seriously, you can use carbon film type and you may even like the sound better than metal films! The only proviso is that you will need to buy plenty and match them as closely as possible. :att'n: |
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| soongsc |
Hi Nuuk,
I read your page on SMPS and was thinking about getting two 48V SMPS to power my AMP2 that's supposed to come in soon. Is it possible put SMPS in series using devices other than the Skynet 8080? |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | I read your page on SMPS and was thinking about getting two 48V SMPS to power my AMP2 that's supposed to come in soon. Is it possible put SMPS in series using devices other than the Skynet 8080? |
I'm certainly no expert in these matters so wouldn't like to say. As you read on my page, I did use four of the 8080's to get 24 volt rails for the GC.
Could you get a 48v SMPS? I'm sure they must make them. ;) |
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| soongsc |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
I'm certainly no expert in these matters so wouldn't like to say. As you read on my page, I did use four of the 8080's to get 24 volt rails for the GC.
Could you get a 48v SMPS? I'm sure they must make them. ;) |
I already have a few 48V SMPS, I just don't know whether a different one would also work like that or not. Seems like I need to pull PS out of my old computers and just try them out. |
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| theAnonymous1 |
I've put many different SMPS's in series, most of which came from old PC's. The most important thing to to remember is you MUST disconnect the AC ground from the ground of the supply or things will quickly turn nasty. Also, if theres a pot to adjust the voltage, try and get the supplies as closely matched as possible before putting them in series.
I think using two 48v SMPS's to make a 48-0-48 supply is an awsome idea for the AMP2. |
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| soongsc |
| quote: | Originally posted by theAnonymous1
I've put many different SMPS's in series, most of which came from old PC's. The most important thing to to remember is you MUST disconnect the AC ground from the ground of the supply or things will quickly turn nasty. Also, if theres a pot to adjust the voltage, try and get the supplies as closely matched as possible before putting them in series.
I think using two 48v SMPS's to make a 48-0-48 supply is an awsome idea for the AMP2. |
Thanks for sharing this experience. :) How about chassis ground? Do I disconnect the DC ground from SMPS internal chassis ground and do the grounding after connected in series? |
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| Andypairo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Andypairo
I can't but agree.
I always smiled when reading people's complaints about those SMD parts being so tiny... until I got my 41Hz Amp3 kits.
Now I'm a bit scared :smash:
Will let you know how things go.
Cheers
Andrea |
After a afternoon dedicated to smd soldering (with some difficulties on the Tripath chip because of the too big iron tip) my 1st AMP3 is now playing some music.
Will soon make a shootout with my regulated, OPA627 buffered GC and with my just completed Mauro Penasa "ref" amp.
Cheers
Andrea |
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| DirkD |
Just finished my Amp 1B kit and wanted to rave about the sound a bit. I am blown away. Dynamic, open, transparent and excellent soundstaging are some words that come to mind.
As far as the kits are concerned: I was very impressed by the speed with which I received my kit. I am also impressed by the very professional way that the kit was packaged and the components were marked. Anyone with a moderate amount of soldering experience would be able to build this kit without to much difficulty.
Regards
Dirk |
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| KT |
I started modding one of the Sonic Impacts I have lying around for use as a kick-around integrated amp.
As I was replacing the SMD feedback resistors, I kept on having a problem with the solder flowing too thickly and balling up at the ends of the resistors and even dragging the resistors off kilter when the iron was removed. This was with the ultra-thin rosin core Radio Shack silver bearing solder and an ultra-fine Hakko tip.
I had this problem with another SI (my first experience soldering SMD), and I was afraid I'd end up struggling, again, and spending a lot of time fiddling about just to get a questionable joint.
Then I recalled a suggestion on the board that suggested that flux was required, even with flux core solder.
I pulled out my tube of paste flux and dabbed a tiny bit on the SMD resistor contacts. The solder flowed much easier and soldering was actually pretty easy!
Well, I never had this problem with through-hole sized components, as the solder surface tension was low enough for this, so these trials with soldering SMDs are like baby steps for me.
Thanks to all who posted suggestions. I now feel much more confident that I could build the AMP3 without too many disasters.
Best,
KT |
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| filholder |
I have just finished an Amp 3 over the weekend, before that i did a fair bit of modding a SI. The Amp3 is easilt worth thr effort, in my opinion it is cleary in it unbroken in state better than my modded Sonic Impact. I can also say that while no where near as easy as saying building a BrianGT chipamp kit it is doable. I have only really been into the whole diy audio scene for abotu 5 months and of course this was the biggest challege i have coem across so far. Go the whole thing together in a maybe 4-5 hrs. One thing to say is absolutely do no try and solder the indivdual lead on the chip. This is close to impossible. The trick is to use plenty of flux, i use a pen, solder to opposing cornersto align the chip. Then just solder all the legs on one side in one go. then using so braid which you have coated in flux remove almost all the solder.
Another thign i found was to use plenty of heat, if not with all those pins and pads and solder you will be on the pads too long and heat up the chip. Try to get the iron hot, i used my 50wat iron on the max setting, and did the desoldering in stages letting the chip cool down between it. Eventually you end up with what look like really clean solder joint, now is the time to get out a magnifiying glass a terbble check all the legs before giveing the thing any juice.
On my first attempt i had one pins non connected, it was the 5v lead out so the amps was dead, thought i had killed it with too much heat, 20 mins later and much prodding with a multimeter and i found the duff lead.
Anyway sorry gone on a bit, the amp3 is greta in stock form and i will have to do a few mods on the capacitors.
Do it!! |
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| Nuuk |
Well done Phil - that's one up on me! ;)
I needed some help on the AMP-3 but the results are worth it so far. Like you. I have only listened to the AMP-3 for a few hours so will reserve final judgement until a bit later! |
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| filholder |
Hi Nuuk,
How goes, yeah i have the amp3 running in my main setup at the moment using your buffer/PSU design in my preamp. Sounds really good and its only got some cheap maplin caps in for the 20,000uf (recommend somwhere) caps. Since i couldnt get any good one in the centre of london and was in a hurry i tired using 18*1000uf slashed together using some mains cable. It works fine but I am thinking about getting somthing better in there, they are just maplin stndard caps which are BC 037 series.
What have you used, and what do you think might be a good choice for some premium(ish) caps, to me in england unless you are willing to pay about £30 on starget from farnell or even more for black gates from hifi collective or audio com there seems little choice. The only really cheapish options seems and array of Panasonic FC since they are so cheap and everyone seems to thinking they are pretty good. Any other ideas?
What voltage are you using your at, my SMPS it set at 12.1v but i can see a trim pot near where the wire come out so i might try adgusting up to around 14v
Take care anyway and hope you are enjoying the amp3 as much as i am, thinking with a little tweaking it could be the amp i settle on.
Oh my ofset was nearly identical to yours, 115mv one side and 20ish the other, any ideas if this might be a problem long term?
Phil |
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| Nuuk |
Phil, you may not want to hear this, but after all your hard work on the pre-amp, I think that the class-T amps sound better with just a volume control! :bigeyes:
I'm using mine with a single SMPS with (snubbered) 10K cap across the output. One of the guys that bought the same SMPS from me says he finds the sound better with no cap on the output!
So your question on caps may be irrelevant. But FWIW, I don't think Starget are anything to write home about, BG's (for me) don't justifiy the expence, FC's are good for the money and if I was going for top PSU caps, I would use DNM Slitfoils. In fact, I'm that busy at present that I hadn't even thought to try one of my Slitfoils on the SMPS! :xeye:
Interesting that you had the same offset figures as I did. I am also wondering about using an amp with so much offset long-term so perhaps one of the 'experts' can advise us on that point!
I'm nearly ready to make comparisons between all the class-T amps that I have here but after my initial reservations, I think that one of them will take over duties from the GC! :o |
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| filholder |
Interesting,
Yeah i was starting to suspect the same myself, i had been testing my various T-amps with just some coda 7 and either a old cd67 or a ipod in my spare room, before finally sticking them into the main system and something did sound quite as good sound stage wise with my larger floor standers. The sound stage seems a little smaller using the preamp compared to without. Your right though my preamp took me longer than any of the other amps to build and tweak so yeah a bit gutting, and to build another without, well my heart just sinks at the prospect. At least the PSU can be used for a phone amp at some point!!
Ok i will go with some FC's then i think, for starter, i am not using full range speakers so i have a feeling the extra capacitance might help.
What value of snubber are you using after your 10.000uf cap?
Be very interested to read your final assement of the kits available, might leave of my modding and pre-amps type stuff till after since i will inevitable end up trying what you suggest.
Take care
phil |
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| Nuuk |
I've got the 1R/0.1 uF snubber on the 10K cap.
Don't get carried away with capacitance, it may be better with less! :att'n:
I hope to complete my review in a few weeks time but it is an article for TNT so you will have to wait until it is published! ;) |
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| filholder |
DD and TnT get together, sounds good. Tnt is on summer break now anyway isnt it.
Did the snubber make much difference?
Anyway good luck on your building and tweaking and I look forward to the results when they come out.
Phil |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | DD and TnT get together, sounds good. |
Not good for me! :bawling:
| quote: | | Tnt is on summer break now anyway isnt it. |
Well one reviewer isn't! :xeye:
| quote: | | Did the snubber make much difference? |
I don't know Phil. It was on the 10K cap and I couldn't be bothered to take it off and try without! :att'n: |
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| filholder |
Cheers Nuuk,
I don't know if it helps but your hard work will be very much apreciated . Lets be honest it is a cool article to write as well since you are dealing with perhaps the most important new amplification technology since the transitor.
Not like do a cd player or cable review!!
Good luck anyway, and thanks in advance.
Phil |
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| soongsc |
Hi,
I just got my AMP2, and it's more intimidating than I thought.:bigeyes:
Now I need to figure out where those little "seeds" go.:xeye: |
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| t. |
Hi Guys,
I did compare the cap with and without snubber on the Amp3, it does make a difference so give it a try and see which you prefer.
I can't make my mind up if I like it better with or without
The snubber seems to alter the tone:confused:
All the guys who prefer a pre-amp with the T-amps all seem to be using a tube based one, I guess an active pre helps if you have a slightly bright cdp, I've not tried it yet so can't comment
The best set-up I've had with the Amp3 so far is
NUUKs smps
10k Siemans sikoral cap (didn't like 20k)
Snubber (not sure yet)
2 x 680uf BG NX for the vd decoupling on the pcb
1uf Multicap RTX input coupling caps
Panasonic for audio pot |
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