| bcherry |
OK, Dice45 recommended making this an open discussion. I agree; here it is;
Fertin 20cm field coils installed in open baffles 120cm x 60cm x 5cm thick.
Voices are sublime, never heard anything like it. Midbass to treble has cracking dynamics. Very smooth response with none of the peakiness I've experienced with Lxxxxxxr.
But no bass below ~150hz. Any suggestions on open baffle placement/management/size? I'd be happy with 60-70hz with sound this clean.
BTW, speakers haven't been run in more than 2 hrs.
Cheers to all,
Brian |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| How did you get them?;) |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
How did you get them?;) |
TO, my old hometown! Any snow flying yet?
Got them from Fertin. Is that what you wanted to know?
Shipped by Airborne Express in a nice plywood box.
Brian |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
No snow yet and that what I wanted to know. I am seriously thinking about getting them too. How much were they?
And what exactly do you want to know?;) |
|
|
| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by bcherry
Midbass to treble has cracking dynamics. |
Usually when I think of things cracking, it's not good. But it seems you're using "cracking" in a positive sense. Am I correct?
I've been eyeballing the Fertins for a while now but there's such scant discussion about them so I want to make sure that what little I'm reading I'm interpreting correctly. :)
| quote: | | But no bass below ~150hz. Any suggestions on open baffle placement/management/size? I'd be happy with 60-70hz with sound this clean. |
Your baffle seems a bit small to expect much in the way of bass. Also, how much current are you running through the field coil? That directly effects the driver's Q and would also have rammifications as far as bass response goes.
se |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| The dimension is 17'x18'x10'. Woofer is Focal Audiom 15'. I'm using electronic crossover at 100Hz. In room freq.response is -3dB at 25 Hz. However, I'm also using another 12' woofer on top with slightly smaller enclosure. My point is that the size of a baffle doesn't really have to be big. No frequency correction was required. |
|
|
| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
The dimension is 17'x18'x10'. Woofer is Focal Audiom 15'. I'm using electronic crossover at 100Hz. In room freq.response is -3dB at 25 Hz. However, I'm also using another 12' woofer on top with slightly smaller enclosure. My point is that the size of a baffle doesn't really have to be big. No frequency correction was required. |
The effective baffle size is larger than your dimensions would suggest seeing as it's a folded baffle. It's effective size is more akin to a flat baffle measuring 37" x 38". Hell, slap one more side on it and it's infinitely large. :)
se |
|
|
| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by bcherry
baffles 120cm x 60cm
....But no bass below ~150hz. Any suggestions on open baffle placement/management/size? I'd be happy with 60-70hz with sound this clean. |
Actually i'm surprised you are getting that low with such a small baffle. If you are getting 150 Hz, doubling the dimensions of the baffle should give you 75 Hz. Keep in mind that the narrow dimensions is the dominant one in determining how low you go.
dave |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Usually when I think of things cracking, it's not good. But it seems you're using "cracking" in a positive sense. Am I correct?
Your baffle seems a bit small to expect much in the way of bass. Also, how much current are you running through the field coil? That directly effects the driver's Q and would also have rammifications as far as bass response goes.
se |
'cracking', just like Wallace and Grommit. Yes, good, very good.
My mistake on baffle size: 80cm x 200cm
10V shows about 1.2A. Higher or lower doesn't make a whole lot of difference at this point.
Played another 4 hrs and the sound is getting even better.
Brian |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
Actually i'm surprised you are getting that low with such a small baffle. If you are getting 150 Hz, doubling the dimensions of the baffle should give you 75 Hz. Keep in mind that the narrow dimensions is the dominant one in determining how low you go.
dave |
Sorry, 'tis 80cm x 200cm
My mistake.
Brian |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
The effective baffle size is larger than your dimensions would suggest seeing as it's a folded baffle. It's effective size is more akin to a flat baffle measuring 37" x 38". Hell, slap one more side on it and it's infinitely large. :)
se |
OK, so extrapolating here: If I extend the top/bottom/sides 30cm 90deg towards the back wall, then I could expect a little more bass heft with no downside? Given the 60 x 200cm baffle, how much would I have to extend from the edges to get down to a clean 70hz?
How about placement for open baffles? They image like crazy no matter where I stand off axis. So far placement seems to have more affect on R-L channel balance. The golden ratio system doesn't seem to work.
Brian |
|
|
| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by bcherry
OK, so extrapolating here: If I extend the top/bottom/sides 30cm 90deg towards the back wall, then I could expect a little more bass heft with no downside? |
The downside is that the cavity caused by the sides causes a tincan resonance. Unequal length sides helps.
dave |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
It all depends on aesthetics. I wanted my open baffle speakers to look nice and not too big (or rathe wide;) ), that's why folded enclosure for woofer. The baffles are sloped so less resonances I hope. I also think that sloped pedestal has something to do with the bass response (took it from Wilson WAMMs), because although I'm not using any low frequency correction circuits, the response is down to 25Hz without a problem. Open baffle produces the best bass you can get.
A friend of mine wa so impressed with the look of mine design, that he took out the drivers of his cheap 3 way system and built enclosure similar to mine, placing his drivers there. He said that they sounded way better.;) |
|
|
| roddyama |
Peter,
“My point is that the size of a baffle doesn't really have to be big. No frequency correction was required.”
I sure you’re getting the bass you say you’re getting, I just don’t see how you’re avoiding the cancellation below 100Hz.
One of the problems in trying to analyze a speaker’s bass output is that the wavelengths are so long that you can’t ignore the room interaction. In the final analysis, the placement of the woofer in relation to room boundaries will always have to be considered. This is even more true with an open back system.
Rodd Yamas***a |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
And this is what matters. The speakers would probably not produce much below 100Hz in different invironment, but I design them for my room and I'm quite happy with their response there. Should I ask for more, or complicate things when it's not needed?;)
I also have to point out than since their creation in 1996 I used them in 3 different rooms and results (or measurements) were always similar. |
|
|
| dice45 |
All,
before i started my open baffle thing (i also have a pair of Fertin FLB20EX) i tried out several speakers in open baffle mode and alway got results much more pleasant and open and detailed to my ears compared to enclosure operation. I also got way more bass than i expected. Subjectively. This is self-delusion. The brain reconstructs the base wave from the harmonics.
I talked to several acquaintants who had tried out open baffle, all seconded this opinion. Measured: there is not much below 100Hz for an open baffle of, say, 160cm wide, 200 cm high.
Subjective perception is quite another matter. One of my buddies finally built an open baffle woofer, EQed and going down to 25Hz. Now this is bass, he reported, before this was a fake.
And this is what i do with my Fertins: i have them in a folded open baffle of 100cm width (effective width is more) and 175cm height. Part of this baffle is an open-baffle subwoofer having two Beyma 18"ers mounted; this subwoofer is the pedestal on which the Fertin's open baffle is mounted. The subwoofer pedestal has a baffle inside which is 25° tilted against level and carrying the 2 woofers. The two woofers are fed by a 100W AKSA amp having the necessary EQ at the input.
The Fertin is fed by a tiny PP tube amp.
One warning: the Fertin has to be mounted by it's magnet, oops, fieldcoil motor. The basket it too weak to carry the huge motor.
Fertin sonics:
Break-in time is considerable. But already from the start the Fertin was by far the best FR driver i ever heard. They are simply seductive.
Highly Recommmended. Who trusts me on the MKVs should trust me on the Fertins. I rate the Fertins as i rate my Koetsu Urushi phono cartridge:
:cloud9: .. i must be starving before i sell it. :nod: |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
The downside is that the cavity caused by the sides causes a tincan resonance. Unequal length sides helps.
dave |
So what if I tilt the baffles back 5 degrees but mount the drivers so they are canted 5 degrees so they're still firing straight into the room?
Brian |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by dice45
All,
One warning: the Fertin has to be mounted by it's magnet, oops, fieldcoil motor. The basket it too weak to carry the huge motor.
:cloud9: .. i must be starving before i sell it. :nod: |
Really? Thanks for the tip, but the basket segments are thick steel and the whole unit is 8 kg. The basket doesn't seem overstressed. Is that based on the German dealer's experiences? Do you have a picture of the mounting you used?
Brian |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by bcherry
Do you have a picture of the mounting you used?
|
You'll find a good example of it here: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/m_panel.htm
Linkwitz is one of the recent pioneers of open baffle speakers. |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by bcherry
So what if I tilt the baffles back 5 degrees but mount the drivers so they are canted 5 degrees so they're still firing straight into the room?
|
Are you talking about woofers here? (and not Fertins) |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Are you talking about woofers here? (and not Fertins) |
Just Fertins. Firing straight at the listener, but mounted so the baffle can be tilted back 5 degrees, creating a little time 'misalignment' havoc at the back. Would it kill the 'tin-can' effect?
Brian |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
I had the impression, that you wanted to use Fertins with woofers. In that case you use Fertins in a flat open baffle board (or with a little curve like I did) and then you don't have to worry about tincan resonances.
Sloped bafffle can be used for woofers, because here you want to fold it to extend its size, but I don't think that you have to be worried about 5 deg. angle. Grand Utopia has both woofers' baffles at the angle for a reason.
Check Linkwitz site http://www.linkwitzlab.com for great info on open baffles projects, as well crossovers and woofers response correction circuits. Although for my taste, they are too much complicated. |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
I had the impression, that you wanted to use Fertins with woofers. In that case you use Fertins in a flat open baffle board (or with a little curve like I did) and then you don't have to worry about tincan resonances.
|
Thanks for the link.
I hope to avoid the headaches of trying to integrate the Fertin with another driver. Always found it can never be seamless and throws away the strengths of a FR driver.
What about treatment of the wall behind the Baffle? Egg crates, acoustic foam etc?
Brian |
|
|
| dice45 |
Brian,
| quote: | Originally posted by bcherry
Really? Thanks for the tip, but the basket segments are thick steel and the whole unit is 8 kg. The basket doesn't seem overstressed. Is that based on the German dealer's experiences? Do you have a picture of the mounting you used?
|
no, i have no pic and if i had, i would not post it. at the moment my Fertins are strapped on a move box made from corrugated cardboard and filled with my vinyl back copies. On top of the move box is a piece of plywood.
The speaker is carrying the baffle by its basket. The baffle also is corrugated cardboard and weighs less than 0.5kg.
This setup was meant to test the speaker and to have it collect burn-in time. When i did it, i knew i would not have my wooden baffle ready soon. Now it sounds so terrific! Outperforming any speaker i had before. Okok, low end is really slender if present. I feel not urged to change this setup for the moment; as soon as i can i will build the wooden thing.
I have CAD pixes of the wooden thing attached.
To the motor mount:
yes, my experiences are partially based
on the German dealer's findings. But also on my engineering judgement: my speakers have a basket consisting of a turned rim to which spokes made from bent sheetmetal are glued. The other ends of the basket spokes are screwed to the motor's pole plate, this joint i feel fine with. But the 6 glued joints between spokes and rim are under permanent static stress by the motor weight and dynamic stress by the vibrations of the baffle. The stress inserted into the glueing joints is peeling stress and dynamic; both concerns me.
Therefore i decided to mount the driver y the motor and mount the basket stress-free and only airtight into the baffle. See pix. |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by dice45
Brian,
I have CAD pixes of the wooden thing attached.
To the motor mount:
yes, my experiences are partially based
on the German dealer's findings. But also on my engineering judgement: my speakers have a basket consisting of a turned rim to which spokes made from bent sheetmetal are glued. The other ends of the basket spokes are screwed to the motor's pole plate, this joint i feel fine with. But the 6 glued joints between spokes and rim are under permanent static stress by the motor weight and dynamic stress by the vibrations of the baffle. The stress inserted into the glueing joints is peeling stress and dynamic; both concerns me.
Therefore i decided to mount the driver y the motor and mount the basket stress-free and only airtight into the baffle. See pix. |
Nice pictures! Looks like you'll get stompin' bass with that setup.
With the threaded hole in the back of the drivers for a mounting bolt, it won't be that difficult to support the drivers from the back.
Today I taped some 20cm wings to one side of the the baffle and got more low-end. A bit more and I think I can live with it. Never had speakers that image like this; I can walk the distance from one speaker to the other and still get imaging outside the speakers. I found that tilting them back projects a much taller image. They play so clean so effortlessly in their range that I found myself turning the volume too loud. Was getting a little clipping from my 45 pp on peaks so I measured with the SPL and found it shooting over 100db. I normally listen in the mid 90's.
I'll be increasing the size of the baffle to 220cm tall x 80cm wide with 20cm wings on both sides.
If that doesn't do it, then I'll put them in a TP1! What do you think of that? I'll have to choose between Xover complexities or box colourations. I'm leaning toward a box, if necessary.
Brian |
|
|
| dice45 |
Brian,
caveat:
the Fertins are not meant and not suitable to work in a backloaded horn (if you mean the Lowther TP1). The driver is not completely airtight from diaphragm frontside to backside (which is a must for a horndriver). It will whistle thru the air gap!
Then:
from my listening experiences with the Fertins, i definitely would prefer XO complexities to boxy colorations. They eat up transparence and detail and that fancy tone colour distincability.
My hint: biamp and have filters inside the amps. As-if-active :)
Another thing,
The Fertin has a comparatively high Q_ts unlike the Lowthers. Perfectly suited for vented and closed enclosure, for open baffle, for TL. But not for horns, they like low Q_ts. BTW, do you really like the low end delay a backloaded horn produces? PRaT is gone to the dogs, compared with open baffle.
To your baffle size:
i was informed that not the rope polygon counts but that the real width and height of the baffle also is the effective one. I do not have the formula at hand but if you find it on the web, use the real width of the baffle to calculate f_-3dB.
To acoustic damping of the rear wall:
I always had diffusors (bookselves not filled completely make great diffusors) and absorbers behind my listening chair and on one side wall only. I never treated the walls behind and around the speakers. Always preferred it that way. |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by dice45
caveat:
the Fertins are not meant and not suitable to work in a backloaded horn (if you mean the Lowther TP1). The driver is not completely airtight from diaphragm frontside to backside (which is a must for a horndriver). It will whistle thru the air gap!
[/B] |
Too bad! :bawling: I had read about someone putting them in BD horns with good results but I guess no back pressure with such a high cutoff.
| quote: |
Then:
from my listening experiences with the Fertins, i definitely would prefer XO complexities to boxy colorations. They eat up transparence and detail and that fancy tone colour distincability.
My hint: biamp and have filters inside the amps. As-if-active :)
[/B] |
Well, no experience with the Fertins but years ago I tried in vain to blend fast panel speakers and Strathearn ribbons with woofers and always spoiled the sound. Tried both active/passive but could always hear the crossover point and what's below.
| quote: |
The Fertin has a comparatively high Q_ts unlike the Lowthers. Perfectly suited for vented and closed enclosure, for open baffle, for TL. But not for horns, they like low Q_ts. BTW, do you really like the low end delay a backloaded horn produces? PRaT is gone to the dogs, compared with open baffle.
[/B] |
Well of the horn enclosures (with Lowther) I like TP1 best; most dynamic. But it's making tradeoffs for sure. Panel/open baffle are in a different class and are so seamless, I'm loathe to interrupt that with more drivers. I'll wait to hear your reports when your finished (ha!).
| quote: |
To acoustic damping of the rear wall:
I always had diffusors (bookselves not filled completely make great diffusors) and absorbers behind my listening chair and on one side wall only. I never treated the walls behind and around the speakers. Always preferred it that way. [/B] |
:
With dipoles, I'm just thinking of trapping that back wave.
Thanks for all the good input.
Brian |
|
|
| bbaker6212 |
Please, please, please, keep the Fertin comments comming. There are way too few opinions/comments to be found about them. And they're too darn expensive to buy without a high degree of faith that they will sound as good some are reporting.
Some comparisons to how various (hopefully well known) songs sound vs. other high quality speakers would help.
ie, what speakers did you used to have, and how do the Fertins better them? |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by bbaker6212
Please, please, please, keep the Fertin comments comming. There are way too few opinions/comments to be found about them. And they're too darn expensive to buy without a high degree of faith that they will sound as good some are reporting.
|
Well, I can update you with this after 50 hrs of playing: This is the most seamless coherent sound I've heard. Also, they are starting to bloom in the bass. The 'voice in the room' spooky presence is starting to spread to other areas higher and lower than the human voice. Just starting to hear some impact in the bass. Got to get one of those frequency test CD's to find out where we are. Going through some past emails from the manufacturer it was recommended to set the PS to 10V for open baffle to give a better balance, and 12V when used in a box to pitch up the highs a bit. At 10V I don't notice that much difference in efficiency (getting about 4w from PP 45's) but the balance is better. I was playing a Kodo drum record to give the driver a workout and noticed a lot more bass detail (skin notes, trills) that I never heard before.
Next week new baffles coming with larger area.
Could this kind of speaker be made in 12"? :bigeyes:
Brian |
|
|
| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by bcherry
Got to get one of those frequency test CD's to find out where we are. |
This one i have found useful.
dave |
|
|
| dice45 |
| quote: | Originally posted by bbaker6212
Please, please, please, keep the Fertin comments comming. .... ie, what speakers did you used to have, and how do the Fertins better them? |
Brad,
this weekend i will make a listening comparison between the reference speakers i use for reality checks and my preliminary Fertin setup. I come back as soon as i have results.
Brian,
i use a similar amp, a #46 PP, even weaker than your #45 PP. I have my Fertins running at 12.9 Volts as the German dealer does. I found no reason to toy around with FC voltage yet, bass is lush and colourful and uncoloured as the midrange and treble. I agree, seamless and coherent is the right term to describe it.
Fertin makes 12" and 15" and even 18" fieldcoils. If i am as satisfied with the Beyma OB subwoofers, i may feel tempted to order 4 of those 18", the drivers are a bit more expensive than the 8". |
|
|
| bbaker6212 |
| Dice, what are you using for the FC power supply? |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| You should better ask him what he's using for reference reality check speakers.;) |
|
|
| Brett |
Bernhard,
Which model Beyma 18ërs are you using?
This is an interesting thread, and I'm getting lots of ideas from it. Whist I'm not really interested in buying the Fertins myself, not that I can afford them, I have some Goodmans 201s that will work in an OB arrangement. The Peerless 830500's that Linkwitz uses have similar-ish specs to my LABhorn drivers so might make an intersting experiment later.
Cheers all
Brett |
|
|
| dice45 |
Brett,
the Beymas are model 18" GT-200.
Er, recently i talked to someone having Goodmans. I described how my Fertins sound in detail, he asked, how much yield Goodmans on ebay? I am sure, he will crowd me soon to isten to me Fertins.
Peter,
when i post my Fertin/Gessner mini comparison, i will describe them a bit, this part of the post has already been prepared. I just did not find the time to do the listening.
Brad,
I am using an LT1085 series regulator with some stunts to get the ripple down before the reg. I mused about a shunt reg but such stuff is a serius challenge for inductive loads and i wanbted some swift result. Moreover, at 12.9V the poleplate is saturated already; hence it does not matter that much if the current thru the field coil is rock-solid constant. At 10V or 7V this may be another matter. To enforce constant current without using a shunt reg, i will try out a huge choke in series with the field coil. |
|
|
| dice45 |
All,
the promised listening comparison has to wait. Today i tried out how the Fertin FC and my trusty old TT cooperate with shellac records.
:cloud9:, read my rave in the analogue board.
Stay tuned |
|
|
| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by dice45
Brett,
the Beymas are model 18" GT-200.
Er, recently i talked to someone having Goodmans. I described how my Fertins sound in detail, he asked, how much yield Goodmans on ebay? I am sure, he will crowd me soon to isten to me Fertins. |
Bernhard,
Thanks for the Beyma model.
My 201's would fetch $US250 - 300 at best on eBay, less fees and Paypal, and a pair of Fertins are, what, $US1200+ / pair? Add duties, shipping etc and they are definitely <i>not</i> in my future. For me this idea was to see if anything could rival my horns.
Please let us know what the Goodman's owner thinks of your Fertins in relation to his Goodies.
Cheers
Brett |
|
|
| reverendclark |
Bernhard,
I think I've got to do this. I've requested pricing from Fertin's agent. Is this the best way to go? Who is Black Forest and what do they have to offer?
Additionally, my best amps are probably 45 P-Ps, maybe the 45 Loftin-Whites, both at 2 watts. Is there any hope of being able to get good bass response without using a woofer? My experience is that there are such integration problems with offsets, etc. that it's not worth the trouble. I use 15" co-axials now, and I'd really hate to give up the bass response they give. I suppose open baffle is the way to do this, a la Linkwitz?
Peter C |
|
|
| dice45 |
Peter,
wow, took a long time to follow my invitation. Welcome! :)
The man behind BlackForest Audio is Volker Kühn, former head of audioplan. He is the distributor for Germany and i bought my Fertins from him.
woofer open baffle: please look at the pixes i posted. Yes, open baffle similar to Linkwitz. After having heard preliminary open baffle woofers, i would not dream ofcombining anything else with the Fertin open baffle.
:idea: Heck, Linkwitz, any idea how to manoever him to joining our forum?
Amp: i predict the 45 PP makes it. The Fertin loves a good PP in open baffle mode, i prefer it to SET amps. I have Manfred Huber's 46 PP driving the Fertins. |
|
|
| reverendclark |
Bernhard,
I actually signed up in February, but was busy getting a review turntable out the door, etc., etc., and one thing leads to another. Now I'm looking to find new ways to spend money on audio, other than just making 'tables.
Do I understand that you are bi-amping the speakers? In your estimation, can my puny 2 watts carry the freight if I do a passive series cross between the woofer(s) and the Fertins? at about 100Hz? I don't have a problem with 2 watts and the 16" Fane/TADs crossed at 1k8, BTW.
Is there any reason to be talking to BlackForest rather than Fertin?
Peter C |
|
|
| bbaker6212 |
| quote: | Originally posted by dice45
Peter,
Amp: i predict the 45 PP makes it. The Fertin loves a good PP in open baffle mode, i prefer it to SET amps. I have Manfred Huber's 46 PP driving the Fertins. |
Why do you prefer PP to SET with the Fertins?
What is better about the sound in your opinion?
The extra power/headroom for better bass?
If so, can't a 300B SET give you similarly enough power?
Also, (appoligize if I already asked this) - have you heard
the Phy-HP KM30 and how would you compare the sound
to your Fertins?
thanks, -Brad- |
|
|
| reverendclark |
My experience is that the 45 P-Ps have more meat in the lower registers, presence if you will, than either a capacitor coupled or direct coupled 45 SET. This might be a plus with an "FR" speaker, with or without a woofer.
Not everyone agrees about the differences between my amps, though. Many have expressed a preference (that I don't necessarily share) for the direct coupled Loftin-Whites on the the same set up. The Loftin-Whites have a certain finesse that can't be ignored, though, and I do run them with Cunningham globes rather than the Silvertone 45 STs that the P-Ps seem to prefer.
YMMV.
Peter C |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by reverendclark
My experience is that the 45 P-Ps have more meat in the lower registers, presence if you will, than either a capacitor coupled or direct coupled 45 SET. This might be a plus with an "FR" speaker, with or without a woofer.
Peter C |
Thanks for that insight because now that you mention it, there does seem to be something synergistic with flea power pp and open baffle. Maybe the midrange is so palpable and the bass on the light side that open baffle doesn't need the midrange thickness of SET and does need the extra tautness of pp for the bass?
Brian |
|
|
| bbaker6212 |
What about this open baffle woofer setup for the low end? Maybe you could just put the Fertin in the center where the 4 mids + tweet is. Maybe just two sub drivers per cabinet instead of 4 too.
thoughts? |
|
|
| reverendclark |
I'm a huge believer in Keeping It Simple, Stupid. My "A" speaks right now are big co-axials with series crossovers. The Fertins won't replace them, they'll go in another room, but I don't want complex. They're too damn hard to tune.
I'm far more likely to do Bernhard's suggestion in his drawings from a few days ago, referring to the Great Linkwitz for Guidance. Best of all worlds, I'd like to not use a woofer at all, but that's not likely to provide the best performance. The 16" Fanes I'm using now have meaningful output at 20 Hz, reflex loaded into 7.5 cuft. I'd sure hate to give that up. Sounds like the plan would be to use Bernhard's setup with a pair of 4 ohm 100dB woofers in series to get them to match dBs and do a series crossover.
Peter C |
|
|
| mgreene |
I, no doubt like many others, have been lurking on this thread for a while.
Does it sound like a good idea to try to set up a Fertin 8" group buy, hopefully for a reasonable discount?
Mike |
|
|
| reverendclark |
Works for me. Let's have a show of hands. I'm in for two 20EXs, and ASAP. Maybe Bernhard could set something up through BlackForest, or go direct.
Peter C |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| I might be interested too. |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
Bernhard,
In your drawing the Fertin's baffle stands directly on the subs' enclosure. Two 18' woofers generate a lot of vibrations which certainly affect the mid/highs driver.. Aren't you concerned about it? |
|
|
| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
In your drawing the Fertin's baffle stands directly on the subs' enclosure. Two 18' woofers generate a lot of vibrations which certainly affect the mid/highs driver.. Aren't you concerned about it? |
One thing Bernhard could do to (dramatically IMO) improve the bottom is to load the 2 woofers push-push which eliminates the majority of the vibration from the physical movement of the drivers.
dave |
|
|
| dice45 |
Catch-all since my last post here:
Peter C,
Point is: noone managed to contact Michel Fertin directly. One has to get in contact to Michel Prin or BlackForest.
I admit i did not try it so far. Black Forest does so few to promote them that i considered to visit the Fertin factory personally as soon as i know where to seek them. I pondered to ask Fertin if he wants a new distributor and suggest myself for that.
But before i do that my speaker has to work, i have to have a list of possible customers and so on. And before i have to get a hand on a health problem i have. Before any entrepreneurial activities.
Brad,
Peter C hit it: the open baffle sounds best if the midrange is not too fat and there is some control in the bass. Which are PP strengthes.
I know the link you posted. Too complex for my taste.
Brad & Peter Daniel,
I intentionally avoid to have the FR and the woofers on the same baffle; i am convinced the woofers will misuse the FR diaphragm as baffle. I wanted to have as much baffle as possible between woofer and FR and to be able to add holes to the lower edge of the FR baffle in case the woofers disturb the FR alltoomuch.
I chose my baffle for space reasons: I wanted to stay within a given width and foot print; moreover i wanted to have both woofer's diaphragm area working. So a compound pushpush orientation was not desirable. I have observed that vibrations are not that dramatic in an open baffle (there is no pressure building up). I have used the Beymas playing ear-deafening level and they did not wander around by vibration; in fact the basket had almost no vibrations.
What was important to me: to mount one magnet up and one diaphragm up. BTW, otherwise i would not have kept my foot print spec. The thind is space-optimized to the max.
No, i am not concerned about vibrations. There is hardly any free baffle for the woofers, there is a central bracing incredibly stiffening the woofer socket .
Let's face it folks: an ultimate setup would need 4 baffles, not two. I do not have space for that. Besides that, this baby eventualy could become a product, a 4 baffle setup? C'mon! I haven't got Yamamura reputation.
Groups purchase: well, i am getting used to it. But if i do it, there must be some benefit in for me. Means: i do it contacting Fertin directly and have got the chance to eventually establish a business relation.
Ok, count me in for coming crimes.
Anyone speaking French fluently among those who are interested? No? :sigh: then i have to de-rust my French |
|
|
| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by dice45
moreover i wanted to have both woofer's diaphragm area working. So a compound pushpush orientation was not desirable |
You are thinking isobarik when i say push-push. A push-push uses all the driver area and cancels the drivers newtonian motion (like a PP cancels even order harmonics).
Perhaps the pictures of this push-push concept will help.
dave |
|
|
| bcherry |
All the action here seems to happen while I'm sleeping!
About 100 hrs now and I notice that as they run in, the motor assembly is building up a residual magnetism which is improving things much. Now even before I switch on the power supply, the speakers pay music at reduced level. With the power on, my 45 pp amp is sounding much more powerful than at the beginning, soundstage is getting to be gigantic. BAss is creeping downward and midrange dynamics becoming more explosive.
These drivers are so resolving, every change of supporting gear can be clearly heard. Setting VTA in my Thorens 125 has become a snap. They are proving to be an excellent tool as well as transducer of music. With tt I had expected the groove noise to become prominent because of the high levels of mid and treble energy, but it wasn't so. Stylus glides just as quietly as in my other system. Weird, this hifi.
Brian Cherry |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
I must have to get these drivers.;)
OTOH it seems weird that a single blue LED generates more interest in one day, than world class drivers in two weeks.;) |
|
|
| bbaker6212 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
blue LED |
I'm afraid to ask :xeye: |
|
|
| reverendclark |
Bernhard,
Hope you feel better, I spent most of last winter with the flu and never felt lousier.
I don't know how many participants could be gotten together for any kind of group buy, assuming that there was one to be had. As I said I've already tried contacting Fertin's agent. If and when he ever gets back to me, I can ask him myself about quantity discounts. The Fertins do seem to be the best choice of the three FC drivers of which I am aware (PHY and Supravox.)
As an aside, I am less concerned about vibration from the woofers. I've never done anything quite like what you sketched, but it's generally large expanses of cabinet panels that are hard to tame, not smaller ones. I certainly am not trying to make my ears bleed with this set up. I like to rock and roll as well as the next guy, but I'd sure miss any hearing I'd ruin this late in life. A properly constucted cabinet of that size shouldn't have resonance difficulties at any sane listening level.
Do I assume correctly the the wings on your implentation are fixed? maybe using piano hinges to give a good, consitent attachment for the whole length, and maybe some added portability? I would actually be far more concerned about what stray resonances the baffle panels would pick up from the woofers, directly or indirectly, than from the woofer cabinets themselves. Maybe some judiciously applied battens on the back side?
Peter C |
|
|
| bcherry |
In situ and with best placement close to the wall (so far) 80 x 200cm baffle isn't that intrusive.
Brian |
|
|
| john |
Hi Guys,
Open baffles solved a lot of acoustics problems to my system. I presently owned an Altech 604-hpln, A duplex speaker. They sounded great on an open baffles and with my set amp 300b triode. But they are very wall friendly. They have to be closed to the walls and have to toed in to accurately produced a laid back image.
I have designed a Dough Sax crossover for my Altech 604, The sounds seems not coming from the speakers... Try It! BUT USE SET TUBE AMPS !
Blue LED's really works. I am doing it on my friends old cd players.
Try the green flourescent night bulbs, They also works on any cd players.
Happy tweaking Guys,
John |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
Brian,
Did you try it on your CD-94? yet?;) I also have this player.
Players come and go but this one stays with me since 1989. I was curious, did you do any mods on it? |
|
|
| planet10 |
Brian,
Is the other one tucked in the corner as well? You could build a trapezoidal shape that more closly fits the shape defined by the corner with not much more intrusion and with a less regular baffle shape.
dave |
|
|
| Brett |
Brian,
Is your baffle really 800x2000? Looks like about 800x1200 to me. Unless your camera is an Escher?
Baffle fans,
This thread having got me intrigued with the idea of trying some baffles (Fertins @$US1500 are out unfortunately) also has me wondering how to place them in a room. Do you set them up like planars, or will they work closer to the front wall? My room has few ways to set them up symmetrically, being wide and open plan. Any tips and suggestions gratefully received.
TIA
Brett |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by john
Hi Guys,
Open baffles solved a lot of acoustics problems to my system.
I have designed a Dough Sax crossover for my Altech 604, The sounds seems not coming from the speakers... Try It! BUT USE SET TUBE AMPS !
Blue LED's really works. I am doing it on my friends old cd players.
Try the green flourescent night bulbs, They also works on any cd players.
John |
I do have a pr of 300B SET which will go in to this as some point. Got kind of entranced by the 45 pp - my first time hearing the 45.
Do you have details of the Sax crossover?
Brian |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Brian,
Did you try it on your CD-94? yet?;) I also have this player.
Players come and go but this one stays with me since 1989. I was curious, did you do any mods on it? |
Hi Peter,
I use it daily. When I first got it from a friend in Vancouver, he said it was soft and veiled so he never used it much. One thing is it was bought from Japan and uses 100V. So I put it on a 100V supply. Also changed the clock, and all the ecaps to Silmics. The Opamps were swapped for 627's. It's not soft and veiled anymore. It's amazing the quality put into this old machines. Just need a little TLC to bloom.
Brian |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
Brian,
Is the other one tucked in the corner as well? You could build a trapezoidal shape that more closly fits the shape defined by the corner with not much more intrusion and with a less regular baffle shape.
dave |
Dave,
This is the long wall of my office. There are shelves that you see and then continues open to the windows about 8'. On the other side a similar 'corner is formed by a pr of Tannoy GRF-R.
How would you suggest building that trapezoidal shape. Dimensions?
Great stuff!
Brian |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by Brett
Brian,
Is your baffle really 800x2000? Looks like about 800x1200 to me. Unless your camera is an Escher?
Do you set them up like planars, or will they work closer to the front wall? My room has few ways to set them up symmetrically, being wide and open plan. Any tips and suggestions gratefully received.
TIA
Brett |
I see your point! I'll have to measure again.
When I put them out into the room, I find they sound good but midbass and lower dynamics are lost. Voice and sax still jump out dynamically but not the lower registers. So far I found the best position tilted back, toed in and close to the wall.
Brian |
|
|
| bbaker6212 |
So that's the Fertin? I've never seen a pic of the front of it.
Is that a whizzer cone? Any close up shots?
I would be up for getting into the group buy if, and that's *IF*, I can sell one of the three pairs of speakers I currently have (Lynn Olson Ariels in cherry veneer and a matching TL subwoofer). |
|
|
| reverendclark |
Another brave soul.
Alas, we're not going to impress Fertin with our buying power if there are only four of us. Do we want to keep this project among ourselves or expand it to the Joe List and Speaker Asylum as well, just to get more warm bodies?
Peter C |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by Brett
Brian,
Is your baffle really 800x2000? Looks like about 800x1200 to me. |
You are right! 80cm x 120cm
Brian:xeye: |
|
|
| mgreene |
Brian,
Can you compare the Fertin, as it is, to the Hammer S12? (Understanding, of course, that the Fertin does not have comparable bass extension.)
When I was tweaking the Hammer's zobel and x-over, I had them running as semi-open baffle and I thought they sounded great this way, too.
After much tweaking, the Hammers are sounding very good - timbre is becoming more realistic and they also throw a huge soundstage.
Mike |
|
|
| bbaker6212 |
Any of you guys heard the AER drivers?
Care to comment on their comparison to the sound
of the Fertins and/or Lowthers? |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by mgreene
Brian,
Can you compare the Fertin, as it is, to the Hammer S12? (Understanding, of course, that the Fertin does not have comparable bass extension.)
When I was tweaking the Hammer's zobel and x-over, I had them running as semi-open baffle and I thought they sounded great this way, too.
After much tweaking, the Hammers are sounding very good - timbre is becoming more realistic and they also throw a huge soundstage.
Mike |
Yes, heard about the Hammer on open baffle and it got me wondering too. I have the Hammer's on the opposite wall to the Fertin's. They sound good as you describe above. The Fertin/open baffle though is just at a different level of performance. I haven't heard the Fertin's in a box, nor the Hammers in an open baffle so I don't know how much to attribute to the driver and how much to the open baffle. The Hammer is respectable next to any box speaker I've heard, but the Fertin's are just spooky the way they capture presence. Ben Webster's sax is so 'there' in the room, it slices the air with it's presence. And in that range, dynamics are at live or near-live levels, more than the Hammer is capable of by a long-shot. Subtle cues are so audible, they're almost visible; I can see the sax swaying and tilting. Voices without boxes are just something else again.
However until I can get the bass dynamics to match, the Hammers are my choice for large scale symphonic music. Everything else goes to the Fertins (I don't listen to rock BTW)
Hope that gives you a picture.
Brian |
|
|
| mgreene |
Thanks Brian,
That is an excellent review / assessment!
Mike |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by bbaker6212
Any of you guys heard the AER drivers?
Care to comment on their comparison to the sound
of the Fertins and/or Lowthers? |
Hi Brad,
I've heard Lowthers in Acousta, Fidelio, Hedlunds and TP1; AER in all but the Acousta. These drivers each sound different according to the enclosure (I like the TP1 best) and I haven't heard the Fertin's in a box. It's hard to separate the sound of the enclosure from the sound of the driver. The Fertin's have much higher moving mass than the other 2 yet, in an open baffle, you'd never guess it. I'll have to try the Fertin's in a box, when opportunity allows, to get a handle on this. But Bernard mentions that the TP1 won't be suitable since the Fertin isn't airtight. Does anyone else have an opinion on this? The distributor suggested that it should work fine.
Brian |
|
|
| bbaker6212 |
| quote: | Originally posted by bcherry
the Fertin isn't airtight |
Huh? What's that you say? |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by dice45
caveat:
the Fertins are not meant and not suitable to work in a backloaded horn (if you mean the Lowther TP1). The driver is not completely airtight from diaphragm frontside to backside (which is a must for a horndriver). It will whistle thru the air gap!
[/B] |
Brad,
Refers to this. There seems to be some differences of opinion over the suitability of the Fertin for a back-loaded horn. anyone know more about this?
Brian |
|
|
| bbaker6212 |
| What air gap? Where's the air gap referred to? Are there holes in the cone, perhaps near the VC? This sounds strange to me. |
|
|
| dice45 |
Brian and Brad,
:whazzat:
any voice coil needs an air gap to be able to move.
As the Fertin has a phase plug where some other speakers have a dustcap with is air-proof. The Lowther too has a phase plug but
1st
it has a way smaqller airgap than the Fertin
2nd
the innner suspension, the centering spider of the lowther is air-proof
The Fertin is not air-proof diaphragm-front-to-back with the basket sealed into the baffle. So on bigger excursions, it whistles thru the VC airgap.
Warning by the German dealer. |
|
|
| bbaker6212 |
| I could see this being a potential problem with sealed or bass reflex cabs. Seems like a TL cab, in addition to the open baffle, would not have much of a problem with this. |
|
|
| bbaker6212 |
Btw, how's the imaging/soundstage with the Fertin given it's integrated whizzer cone?
Any forwardness/brightness like some report about the Lowthers and others with whizzers? |
|
|
| bcherry |
| quote: | Originally posted by bbaker6212
Btw, how's the imaging/soundstage with the Fertin given it's integrated whizzer cone?
Any forwardness/brightness like some report about the Lowthers and others with whizzers? |
No 'shout'.
Just smooth seamless sound. Loads of detail/imaging from any position without aggressiveness.
Brian |
|
|
| mgreene |
In regard to the potentially obtrusive baffle size that seems most appropriate for the Fertins, it occurred to me that (taking Bernhard's design and vibration notes as a starting point) the main baffle could be made to be removable when not listening to music. If wings are hinged they and the baffles could be folded flat and stacked against the wall when not in use.
I had in mind that with the driver supported from the magnet and with a small portion of the front baffle permanently attached, the larger portion of the baffle, supported by rubber bumpers could then be removable.
Finally, if it is acoustically desirable to turn Bernhard's bass box 45 degrees one could have a more reasonable in-room footprint for various occasions. For instance, in my room the TV can't be seen from all locations because of the hughe speaker boxes. |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by reverendclark
Another brave soul.
Alas, we're not going to impress Fertin with our buying power if there are only four of us. Do we want to keep this project among ourselves or expand it to the Joe List and Speaker Asylum as well, just to get more warm bodies?
Peter C |
Any more interest with Fertin group purchase? |
|
|
| reverendclark |
Well, I *still* am, but this thread seems to be fizzling a little, what with folk now going on about issues peripheral to that particular subject. I want to do this anyway. I can't seem to get Fertin's agent to respond but BlackForest Audio has responded, so I'll go ahead with them at some point, even if it's solo. We've got a pretty good 12v power supply setup that I'm dying to try, and this will save me from the Sierra Brooks/TAD 4002 thing on my next speaks.
But I'd be happy to go in with "enough" others to make it happen. A buck's a buck.
Peter C |
|
|
| mgreene |
I'm still interested - but as the discussion has gone forward, I'm now interested in seeing how successful the current owners are in mating woofers to the Fertin.
I've finally (this week) got my sub to integrate w/ the Hammer S12 and it wasn't easy. In any case, the quality of the bass isn't as fast and present as the Cabasse 21NDC in my other speakers.
Mike |
|
|
| Brett |
it is a field coil, so I thought you guys might like to see it. Perchance has anyone heard anything of, or even heard this beast?
From <a href="http://www.shindo-laboratory.co.jp/English/speaker.html">Shindo Labs</a>, the Lafitte.
<img src=http://www.shindo-laboratory.co.jp/info/MODEL%20S-20F.jpg>
TTFN |
|
|
| dice45 |
Brett and all,
last two days i was attending AAA anlogue audio show in Frankfurt, Germany, and i met an elder person i told baout FR speekers and he said he just bought a RFR speasker from K.Aschenbrenner who is the German Shindo distributor. From the description he gave me, it must be that speaker on the pix. I just remember his radiant face whne soke enthusingly about this speaker and as he snorted at the same speakers i did not like and preferred the same pro TT audio and studio speakers i liked best at the show, i dare to guess it must be an extremely musical and pleasantly sounding speaker.
BTW,
no speaker came close to the Fertin above 80Hz on this show and there were some very expensive ones.
The thing i liked best at this show was an Eastern Germany company making monitor speakers for studio use; there the comparison between the original master tape and the record made from this tape was demoed on EMT studio TTs (i clearly preferred the tape, but the mastering job of this record was obvioulsy flawed).
The speakers of this manufacturer were 2way coaxials with paper cones. I would send any person seeking small size speakers to that manufacturer.
But i am happy with my Fertins. |
|
|
| reverendclark |
I'm pretty sold on the Fertins. The PHY and the Supravox specs don't seem to fill the bill. I know that some European manufacturers can fudge their numbers, but I see that as their problem, not mine. Unless a better deal surfaces, I'll get mine from BlackForest.
Peter C |
|
|
| dice45 |
Peter,
the Supravox is a risky experiment anyway, their QC seems to be non-existent. Jean-Michel LeCleac'h reported magnets falling off the basket at HiFi show demo speakers and fromother corners of Europe i hear similar things.
The PHY is superbly made but needs a tweeter according to anyonewho heard it. And is coloured to the extent of being loathsome if i believe my friend. Luigi Reto Andreoli uses the PHY for his wonderful open baffle speaker but also uses a tweeter.
I don't, with my Fertins. No tweeter needed. The only tweeter visible has basket diameter of 8" :cheeky:
Heck,
if this nasty title under my moniker lets me, i may post the promised listening comparison between Fertin OB and my reality-check 2ways one day. No time so far, i apologize. |
|
|
| reverendclark |
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll be very interested in any and all results.
At the risk of seeming heretical, has anyone ever reflex loaded one of these things? If they'll generate down to 50Hz, my guess is that they can do the next octave down without a lot of semi-exotic help, just a big box.
Peter C |
|
|
| Variac |
| An open baffle can be built to look like a cabinet, with "doors" that hinge open to each side when in use. When closed they protect the driver from your cats.:o |
|
|
| reverendclark |
I understand.
I do have certain space considerations, but I'm also dealing with 44" x 22" x 19" reflex boxes for my co-axes now. I just saw the ~50l. VAS and said, "hmmmm."
Also, I know how to do reflex loading. I'm really trying to avoid having to do any crossover at all, which also avoids the woofer integration bugaboos, as well. But I'm not doctrinaire about this. If open baffles are the way to do it, at least it's cheap to prototype and demonstrate the effect one way or another.
Peter C |
|
|
| dice45 |
All,
could you do me the favour to wait some days until you approach Black Forest?
I intend to find out Fertin location and write them a friendly letter in French. Maybe we can get in business with them directly. Michel Prin in out of Q as a filter in between and also Black Forest is very lazy in promoting this wonderful speaker. Maybe i can tell them things they want to hear.
Did i get that right? interest for 4 pairs of FLB20EX? |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| There is interest from me in one pair (maybe even 2). |
|
|
|
