| Bricolo |
Hi,
I was wondering, on this (and other) forums, when a member writes about a DIY amp, preamp, IV or anything else, he always says that he is very satisfied with it. This is true from the simpliest to the most complex topology.
I don't remember the last time I read something bad about DIY equipment, (except for the gainclone :D)
Why?
-your subconscious is telling you that it sounds good because you did it yourself
-commercial designers don't know theyr job?
-because most of the time DIY stuff don't have unnecessary functions like tone control, balance, equalizing... and this would screw up the sound?
I really don't know |
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| zobsky |
| not a lot of DIY'rs go about forums posting about their failed attempts :D |
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| Byrd |
All but the most expensive of commercial designs have priorities other than Sound Quality in mind eg Profits, safety, aesthetics, market demand.
DIY designs are usually built with Sound Quality as the main priority with comments such as
"Hmmm - I didn't consider the fact that this pair of speakers thing won't fit through the door to my house"
or
"I'll probably only be able to afford to run this class A 2 Hours a month" or
"Damn - I wish I had put some sort of covering over that amp. My Dog - "Old Sparky" might not have lived up to his namesake"
arriving later
There are, however , some designs out there that will not be suitable for you. Eg Rod Elliot's Project 3a did not sound very good to me at all. It was quite muddy compared to the Leach Low TIM that I built. But that is of course only my opinion and the same may not hold true for you. |
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| demogorgon |
Ok, my first diy atempt was a lm358 based headphone booster\amp i made at school a practical op-amp asignment.
made it with +-5v rails, to litle capasitans and way much gain.
-well, it sucked. really sucked.
but that really the only diy thing i'm not pleased with.
and the reason for me being pleased with a diy product:
It's simply not finnished until i'm pleased with it. simple as that. my buffed, inverted, snubbed GC is currently undergoing it's 3 or 4'th mod, so still a work in progress, even though i'v had tunes flowing through it for 4months.. |
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| Frank Berry |
To DIY is to learn.
We've all had DIY design failures. Some of mine have been pretty spectacular ... smoke, exploding electrolytics and fuses that flash as soon as the power is applied.
We try to learn from our mistakes.
Oh yes ... I also had some spectacular success. |
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| Magura |
I guess it's true that most people don't post about their faillures, hence the impression that all DIY projects are turning out well.
I think that anybody whom have been into DIY for a number of years have made something that didn't work, I for one have made a couple of such projects in the past, but all turned out to be of great value in respect of learning.
Magura :) |
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| demogorgon |
| quote: | Originally posted by Frank Berry
To DIY is to learn.
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True, so true.
| quote: | Originally posted by Frank Berry
Oh yes ... I also had some spectacular success.
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And that makes it all worthwhile.
BTW, zobsky: Is that Hårek (harek) in your avatar? |
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| zobsky |
| quote: | Originally posted by demogorgon
BTW, zobsky: Is that Hårek (harek) in your avatar? |
Hagar the Horrible, cartoon character, morphed with the Mona Lisa, in this instance
Back to the discussion, .. many DIY away projects can blow away commercial equipment many times their cost. |
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| demogorgon |
| quote: | Originally posted by zobsky
Hagar the Horrible, cartoon character, morphed with the Mona Lisa, in this instance |
Ah, He's the same guy.
gotta like him. |
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| AudioFreak |
| I remember one of the first things I every built, it was quite a complex design considering that I'd had very little experience at the time. Anyway, I built it from a schematic I'd copied from a magazine so I figured that it shouldn't be too hard to do and all should go smoothly. All did indeed go smoothly except I wired a pot incorrectly. Powered on and everything seemed fine, adjusted pot by turning it full travel one way. Smoke and $15 worth of components down the drain. It turned on ok because the pot was centered, but because I had wired the pot incorrectly, when I turned it full travel one way, I had shorted the +ve rail to ground. |
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| Bricolo |
| Thank you for your feedback, guys. But the topic isn't about unsuccessfull amps, but rather about successfull ones with occured to sound worse than expected |
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| analog_sa |
A great thread. Thanks for starting it Bricolo.
Over the years i must have completed more than a hundred different projects. Some cloned out of commercial equipment i had in my posession or based on manufacturers' service manuals; others built out of Elector, Audio Amateur, ETI, etc articles and more lately - projects off the net.
All the clones worked consistently better than the commercial originals. As there were no tight constraints relating to cost of parts, size or weight my clones could afford to sound better.
The projects that came out of magazines (in the eighties) were consistently disappointing. Although a few notable exceptions sounded very nice, the trend was obvious - those who know manufacture, those who don't write magazine articles.
In more recent times Sound Practices and some other publications offered a variety of great sounding projects.
Compared to commercially published designs the Net seems to offer a lot of good choices. Caution and selectivity are of course essential.
Probably 90% of commercially manufactured audio equipment is quite disappointing. I see no reason DIY made stuff would score better. Still, achieving 10% success rate is quite rewarding although not cheap :)
If you strive for 100% success, the best recipe seems to be cloning of commercial stuff after an extensive audition. |
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| argo |
Few of the DIY amps I have built and which sound disappointed me (not in particular order)
Ciuffoli's PowerFollower 99
Mini Aleph
Plantefčve's Amperotron
My DIY version of Hawk Audio’s A-18 - with BUZ900/905 outputs
GainClone - inverted LM3875 with big 10000uF power supply caps (was ok with small 1000uF ones)
A lot of my own efforts (mostly with mosfets) |
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| GRollins |
There are a number of ways to approach this:
--I have frequently quoted "Grey's Corollary to Beranek's Law," to wit: If you chose the design, selected the components, wrote the check, and assembled the parts, then to you it's the best sounding amplifier in the world.
--An interest in stereo does not, in and of itself, endow the builder with a good sense of hearing. Or, to put it another way, so-called golden ears don't grow on trees. Some people are born with them. Some have to develop them. Some should simply give up and be happy with mid-fi. Someone with lead ears is happy with truly horrible stuff.
--Many people enter the hobby simply to save money. If they turn it on and music comes out, they're ecstatic.
--In many peoples' minds enough feedback will make anything sound good. Even Radio Shack stuff.
--Some people just want it really, really loud. If it's louder than what they had before, they'll have an orgasm on the spot. Guaranteed.
--Some people want deep bass, even though they wouldn't know a 20Hz tone if it walked up and shook their hand. Give 'em 60-80Hz loud enough and they'll tell you it's the deepest bass on the planet.
--Too many people think that lowest common denominator equipment is the benchmark. Their reaction to anything better is likely to be out of proportion.
--Too many people never hear real music played without amplification. If your standard is a 50,000W PA system, then even the most primitive circuit is likely to sound better, just not as loud.
--Having a really extreme system is an ego thing to some people, just like owning a BMW, Rolex, or a fancy house. If they don't have the means to buy what they want, they may decide to build it.
--It works, but they're afraid to admit that it sounds like excrement. They laud it to the skies so as not to have to admit that they screwed up. (And for god's sake, don't ever...ever admit to dissatisfaction in front of the wife. She's already peeved enough about the money spent, the mess made, the ugly result...)
Okay, so far, so good. Where's that leave everybody else?
Valid reasons for doing DIY:
--If you think it's fun.
--If you want to learn.
--If you want a decent system and can't afford the really good stuff.
--If you simply like to be around people who are doing cool technical things that involve knobs and dials and buttons and lotsa lights; just try to be honest about being a groupie. It's okay...really. Honest.
--You're a venture capitalist looking for the next big thing and are tired of losing your *** on sundry health care start-ups. You can start your own stereo company for a mere pittance compared to what it takes to bankroll the next Amgen. Again, be honest. We're suckers for flattery and would love nothing better than to quit our day jobs and play with little brightly colored pieces of plastic and metal all day.
Grey |
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| Illusus |
| So far the only things that disappointed me were my own brew phono-pre..ick! and the GC...it just didn't sound involving to me. Other than that I've loved everything else I've built, even the stuff that sounded terrible was a ton of fun to create... my first guitar amp sounded sooo damn bad, but it was loud and brash and my friends punk band still uses it for vocals. |
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| jmateus |
GRollins, I loved your considerations, very true and pertinent. IT
summs up everything I think about diy equipment.
Be honest, is the key word, just because was built by yourself it
doesn´t classify it as excelent, it means only your were successfuly
in having it working. Quality is another story...
This reminds me an amplifier that I built not too long ago by a design
from Silicon Chip (australian magazine) and turned out to be a very
mediocre amplifier that I put aside as being one of my rejects. In
the meantime I embarqued in another project...
However, after a couple of months I wasn´t content neither with
this last amplfier (being to harsh to my taste) and came back to the previsous one that gave me a bitter taste by being so...so so.
And miracle of the miracles, after a couple of modifications including
the replacement of the output transistors and other passive compo-
nents, this amplifier came alive with a lot of carisma and sweetness,
a real winner, so much so that I still play it in my system...
Well, I have too many amplifiers, that´s my problem.
But to end my rumblings, sometimes is like you say, think about it,
document yourself the best you can and then, don´t write a check,
just use what you have in your junk box and judge it, if it promises
just a little bit, then and only then write a check...a small one until
you´re convinced.....
Bad projects are everywhere... |
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| I_Forgot |
Of course everyone's DIY sounds better than commercial stuff.
And everyone here has better than average aural acuity. And everyone here has higher that average IQ. And no one here is susecptable to common psychological effects that affect the rest of the human population.
We are ALL exceptional!
I_F |
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| Illusus |
| I_F, heh, nice one... I think about how I think...only by analyzing my follies in behaviour and thought I develop. Quite often, I'm guilty of overestimating my intelect and individuality, that's when I realize just how unexeptional and inconsequential my existance is. |
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| GRollins |
In the overall scheme of things, none of this matters a whit. If DIY stereo components ceased to exist, the world would still turn on its axis, babies would be born, fish would swim, and wine would taste (nearly) as good.
There are folks (I could name a few) who are so filled with self-importance that they are unable to remember that this is just a hobby...nothing more.
Passion is good, but it easily becomes arrogance in some people. If it quits being fun, take a break. If, after a month off, you still can't separate what matters from what doesn't, get out entirely. This is supposed to be fun. If it isn't, you're in the wrong hobby. Search for a new one.
Grey |
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| dqswim |
An interesting question to ask. How do you seperate what you made that works vs. what you made that sounds good?
I have had some projects that were 'maybe succesfull' but sounded like s.... I tried and tried to make good sounding electrostatic speakers. They worked and made sound but the sensitivity and peak spl weren't great. I still have all the electronics and such but the idea of even fighting against all the associated problems sends shivers down my spine.
Some of my open baffle speaker designs sounded poor, tinny and without bass.
On the amplifier end of things I have come to prefer the passlab designed amps more than the yamaha and nad amps that have lived with me since pre diy time and thats what counts. They may or may/not comare with 'high end' gear but it sounds better than what I had.
On a similar note once when I built a new DIY speaker pair I was testing them out and loving the sound. The sound was pure bliss knowing that I designed and made something that sounded so good. So I had some friends come listen to my speaker creation and someone had the nerve to point out that I had only hooked up one speaker. Who would have guessed that I could have saved myself alot of money and effort and just made one. :smash: kidding..
so it goes.. |
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| jackinnj |
| in the very early 1980's I attempted to make a crossover with torroids -- this was a very bad idea. |
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| jmateus |
Interesting, to say the least...
So you also did the dance of the ESL´s? I´m asking because I dealt
with all the frustations associated with electrostatics for almost 3
months. This was three years ago.
And for the next 2 and half years I had the best sounding speakers
on this planet(?). But it cost me a lot of time, effort, desperation and
money, of course.
But look on the positive side as I did, I learnt a lot, I learnt so much
that I´m going to build another pair this summer.
Believe me, it was a nightmare because I didn´t know diddly about
making electrostatics from scratch and I struggled with my ignorance
for quite some time. And then, little by little, a window started opening
and things came into place and when I finished them and put them
in my system it was like some sense of acomplishment and pleasure
because the speakers sounded really good.
SPL? Yes, the ESL are not known for a great sound pressure, mine
give me enough for the room where they are, but on the other hand
I don´t need more (I don´t listen to rock), and sometimes I even
have to decrease the level.
So, believe me you´re not alone, just apply yourself a little more
and You´ll be rewarded, I´m sure.
But remember to make two of them, one is not enough.... |
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| ScottRHinson |
Two things:
1. I think most people want to brag about their success and are less likely to post about failures.
2. A failure is something that isn't right when you quit working on it. Around here, someone can post with a question and have literally hundreds of eyes looking over it. So, you've got a much better chance of getting it working!
My biggest failure was my first set of speakers, a pair of floor standing 3-ways, 27TFFC, Audax HM170Z0 mid, and CSX10" bass drivers...circa 1997. Only done through simulation, no measurements.
Ouch.
Bright would not begin to describe it.
Scott |
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| mastertech |
"Just remember: in theory there's no difference between theory and practice.
But in practice it usually is quite a bit difference..."
good point
"from schematic to actual circuit"
it gets better with experience
cheers |
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| Vix |
Hi
Everyone had failed attempts and bad sounding amps. The worst sounding amp I built was based on TDA 7294. Totally lifeless. I gave it to a friend who is using it for some small subs.
We build things to learn and save money. In fact, if we consider the time we spend for research, building, testing, then the monetary difference is not that huge. As Grey pointed out, this is supposed to be fun. But there are certain moments when we may find ourselves spending more time tweaking an amp (or building a new one) than actually enjoying the music. This happened to me. It is important to know when to stop. If we don’t allow ourselves to relax and enjoy our “product”, why bother building it? In DIY we strive for the perfect sound. But, as one of my university professors said “The perfect is the enemy of the good”.
I consider the pass ZEN amp to be good. In my opinion, Aleph 2 is perfect. But, I’d rather listen to ZEN and have a drink with friends, than spend months building an Aleph.
Maybe sometime in a future. In the meantime, have fun.
Regards,
Vix |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vix
Everyone had failed attempts and bad sounding amps. The worst sounding amp I built was based on TDA 7294. Totally lifeless. I gave it to a friend who is using it for some small subs.
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:bawling:
My gainclone is based on a TDA7294, because I couldn't find the LM chips here. But I like it, even if I didn't have the occation to compare to many other amps |
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| promitheus |
One of my first Projects was an intergrated Amplifier.
Preamplifier stage with an IC LM from national, I cant remember the number. :xeye:
It was one of those ICs that had Bass, Treble, Balanced and Volume with DC Control using 4 10KOhm pots. :whazzat:
The amp modules where a KIT from a local store 30-60 Watts I think.
That was over 20 years ago.
That thing sounded so bad. The Power Supplies were minimal and the dynamics were not there. :dead:
The speakers where 3 ways with all the parts stuck in a ready box not even calculated for them etc.
But I learned a lot from that set up. |
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| Jennice |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vix
...I consider the pass ZEN amp to be good. In my opinion, Aleph 2 is perfect. But, I’d rather listen to ZEN and have a drink with friends, than spend months building an Aleph.... |
Isn't that what it's all about? Having time to enjoy your work?
Even if it's not perfect, a project can still be good (...enough for you). Isn't that the primary criteria for calling a DIY project a success?
Nothing is perfect, everything is a compromise. But if you like your choice of compromises, enjoy the result. Commercial products make different compromises than a DIY'er. Thus the result is different. Not that DIY'ing is always cheaper, but doesn't the indiviual choice of compromises and gained knowlede have a value?
I've built some amps, most of which I like. As I've run out of things to power with my amps, I've started to read about, ask about, and eventually start building speakers.
I don't expect to make the perfect speaker, but even though I would be happy to end up with something nice sounding, my main criteria for success here is learning.
If I learned from a project it's a success (even if learning means to find out why the project doesn't work). If my ears like the result too, it's an added bonus.
Jennice |
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