| gema |
Which one to build?
Any suggestions?
Thanks and regards. |
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| Nelson Pass |
I suppose you could build both. They use the same size
supply, dissipate the same wattage, and most of the parts
are the same. |
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| gema |
Techicaly yes. But my qustion was more in direction of sonics. Witch one will probably be my ears more happy with?
Best Regards |
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| Nelson Pass |
Don't ask me, I am heavily biased.
:crazy: |
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| vpharris |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nelson Pass
I am heavily biased.
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Is that like, over 3A?;) |
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| skaara |
| Liquid nitrogen cooled? |
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| vinay |
Which way are you biased?
Specifically, between the sound of your commercial designs and your DIY designs. (ignoring costs, output, sophistication, etc)
Thanks.
Vinay |
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| Nelson Pass |
The viewpoint of the designer is never that of the
consumer. I may have reasons to love/hate a
product of mine which everybody else hates/loves
for their own reasons.
Not only that, but everyone approaches these projects
with different needs, abilities, and tastes. There is no
absolute best, only differences.
Like good wine.
:cool: |
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| PMA |
| Which one to build? From my point of view the input stage of Aleph is better than that one of ZEN4, so I would build Aleph. |
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| jh6you |
Hi PMA
What is the reason for the better input stage...?
Is it related to the sound quality...?
JH |
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| rothko |
I think one important difference between Zen-4 and Aleph is in output stage. Zen-4 requires output capacitor, but I cannot find output capacitor in Aleph schematic.
I think output capacitor affects the sound quality of power amp.
Am I right? |
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| fcel |
| This is what I read about output capacitors. Those capacitors helps to block out DC which is good but at the same time it induces noises to the signal path and thus is no good. |
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| PMA |
| Aleph30 has a true differential input stage, that is superior to ZEN4 input stage. Input stage of ZEN4 is a compromise and a try to get better input impedance compared to original ZEN. True differential input stage of Aleph30 also ensures better DC stability of the whole circuit, that's why there is no need for an output capacitor. |
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| dieringe |
i switched from zen V3 to aleph30.
it's much better. i have rather small 4ohm 2way speakers (jbl ti1000). the aleph has more control, power, and precision. it need slightly bigger heatsinks and i used bigger transformers as well.
you could think the zen sounded somewhat smoother
but it didn't deliver the power and the bass was too dull. maybe it was the transformer also... |
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| Koy |
| At first I made Aleph 30. And than I rebuild ( only change of some resistors) it to A3 which seems to me to be superior to A30 (with 4ohm speakers). |
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| PMA |
Dieringe,
the reason of dull bass with ZEN is most probably ZEN's low damping factor.
Pavel |
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| dieringe |
| quote: | Originally posted by Koy
At first I made Aleph 30. And than I rebuild ( only change of some resistors) it to A3 which seems to me to be superior to A30 (with 4ohm speakers). |
really?
do you have to change the input stage for this?
- 10K -> 1K (R2 etc. -> R101 etc.)
- 100K -> 10K (R7 -> R104)
- no neg. input
what makes the difference in connection of the 220uF capacitor C102 (a3) vs. C9 (a30)?
probably the only resistor necessary to change is R16 (392R) -> R110 (100R)?
(apart from taking out 1 pair of FETs and 2 output resistors) |
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| jh6you |
Interesting.
I remember. Mr Nelson Pass said in another thread: "Zen V4 would be up to the task equivalent to Aleph 3."
So, I have thought there could be a bit different colors and tastes between ZV4 and Aleph 3.
But, the bass is dull...? Where is the DF 40...? :(
JH |
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| Koy |
Of course my A3 is mixture of A30 and A3. 3 pair of output MOSFEts, bias cca 0.8A each.
Changing the input and feedback resistors I got different ( for me and my speakers) better sound. Notice the capacitance of Q102 + zeners x 100k resistor, etc.
C102xC9 - it is the same. |
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| jh6you |
Interesting, interesting…
As far as I know, Zen V2, Zen V4 and Aleph 3 and 30 have the same active current source, which works for the most part of the energy of the bass. Honestly, I feel difficult to understand the above bass sound comparison between Zen V2/V4 and Aleph 30.
I feel like that you are saying there is in general much difference in sounds among them. Is it…? Could I hear more detailed description…?
JH |
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| dieringe |
I didn't try zen 4, but the zen 1/2/3 didnt really give as much "power" (sonically) as the aleph.
I repeat that this is probably due to my 4ohm speakers. I didn't try them on 8ohm.
Also I probably had too small transformers. but somehow i think it is inherent to the design...
As The One and Only said, you can build both to try it out. You can reuse most of the parts if you do it right (not like me) |
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| jh6you |
Well noted. Thanks.
JH |
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| Bela |
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Koy
Changing the input and feedback resistors I got different ( for me and my speakers) better sound.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Koy, which resistors did you change, and what is the new value?
B.:confused: |
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| Koy |
| I used values from Aleph3. Added current mirror and now I am thinking about some changes in RC for current modulation ( now I can see Mr. Pass smiling...). |
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| PMA |
| I am pretty sure that there is a space for improving of the Aleph3 simple topology :-) |
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| Coulomb |
Mr. Pass I think a full bodied Chardonay with a good nose should have a peppery feeling in the back of the throat, you should taste oak on the edges of your tounge and the fruit of the Chardonay grape in the centre, a slightly tart taste.
I find most Beaujelais (screwed that up) just overwhelm my senses with bitterness.
But what I really love is a nice Reisling, a medium dry white with a Pasta arribriata bolognese is to die for.
So get off the fence and tell us which AMP you would listen to if you could only have one. sheesh. :)
Anthony |
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| Nelson Pass |
I like my Beaujelais rushed straight from the airport
in the original cask. Any older than that......
The very idea that there could be one best amplifier
is ludicrous. What would you do with the rest of your
life? Or do I want to know? |
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| stefanobilliani |
| J'adore Venice. |
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| jag |
While I understand and even agree with Nelson's point of view, I think I also see where Coulomb is coming from. Maybe we are not asking the right question here. Let me try:
So Mr. Pass, what is the amplifier you listen to most often while relaxing at home (probably accompanied with some nice wine) :D
Thanks! |
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| jh6you |
I guess balanced monos of Zenlite,
with lot of nice red wines under the light.
Sounds pretty romantic.
;) |
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| Nelson Pass |
The glow is quite relaxing; you can better appreciate the
appeal of tubes.
However, I really can't help you here. There simply is no
correct answer.
:angel: |
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| Coulomb |
| quote: | | There simply is no correct answer |
Do you ever think of entering polotics Mr. Pass? :)
This year was one of the best for new Beaujelais as the 2001 crops were the best in years. If you can get them where you are Mr. Pass I encourage you to try some Ontario Niagra wines from Canada. We have had some very good award winning wineries producing top quality products.
I find myself caught between another wine fridge or another peice of audio equipment.
hummmm...
Anthony |
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| GRollins |
Part of the problem is that you are seeking absolute answers to relative questions.
Another part of the problem is that Nelson--like the rest of us who are bi/tri/quad/quint-amped--doesn't listen to <i>one</i> amplifier at a time; he listens to five. And those five change according to the needs of the moment.
Trying to pin down one amp is like the bet they made as to whether a horse at a full run ever had all four hooves off the ground at the same time. It took high speed photography and a whole lot of patience to answer the question (yes, they do...). A high-speed camera would only demonstrate that Nelson uses amps...but it would still not give you a definitive answer as to which amp he prefers.
Perfers for what?
Subs? Woofers? Mid-bass? Mid-range? Tweeters?
And how about the new idea that lead to a new circuit to be evaluated?
It's a moving target.
Grey |
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| Nelson Pass |
Actually it is a problem, and we address it by keeping
several speakers around with passive crossovers:
Hales, Altec, Tannoy, Apogee, Klipsch, and some home brew.
Otherwise, we'd be totally confused. |
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| Coulomb |
| quote: | | Actually it is a problem |
Mr. Pass you must have the patience of Job. Not only do you have to suffer endless questions about minutia, but to have to keep improving on what always seems like perfection to the rest of us in your designs.
Cudo's
Anthony |
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| GRollins |
Any wine that pours will eventually win awards. I was in Virginia in early September, and every winery I visited boasted "award winning wines." Most of them were mediocre, at best. Some were so bad I read the fine print more closely; turned out the awards were from the Bumpkin County State Fair, or some such.
Not to say that I didn't eventually find a few to my liking...
The other side of the amplifier coin is that if you find an amplifier that has, say, great bass but is less than stellar in the midrange and absolutely horrid on top, you can safely insert it into your system knowing that you'll be getting the best out of that particular topology.
I like to mix and match topologies--even gain devices (meaning some tubes and some solid state)--using each amp where it's happiest. My old Thresholds are best in the bass, so they're on the woofer panels and subs. At the moment, I'm running one Aleph 2 on the mids and another on the tweeters. I'm about to go back to tubes on the midrange, I think, but with a bit of redesigning of my amps. The Aleph was crowding my tubes a bit for sound quality, plus I've had time to meditate on my design for a while and I've got a few things I want to change.
Of course, I could always return my tube amp to class A. Tried that for a while, but wasn't willing to take the drop in power (from 130W or so down to roughly 40W). That was tasty while it lasted, though.
Decisions, decisions...
Grey |
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| Coulomb |
| quote: | | Decisions, decisions... |
Yes, certainly seems like a grey area, or is that gray area... hummmm
Anthony |
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