| 6h5c |
After modding a Marantz CD63 and a CD67OSE I decided to make a list of all the various mod's I found here and elsewhere on the internet.
I'd like to donate my files to this forum, for all to enjoy! :D
Of course I do not pretend this list to be complete. :whazzat:
This is all I've done to the players so far and more good tips are welcome!
Greetings,
Ray. |
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| navin |
| quote: | Originally posted by 6h5c
After modding a Marantz CD63 and a CD67OSE I decided to make a list of all the various mod's I found here and elsewhere on the internet.. |
will these work on a CD63 KI? |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by navin
will these work on a CD63 KI? |
Hello Navin,
The differences between the CD63 and the -KI are mainly mechanical, and the KI has a toroidal transformer.
The CD63KI uses the same PCB as far as I know, so the tweaks apply to the KI also. It's possible that a few components (like caps) have a bigger value already, but you can replace them with better low-ESR types.
Regards,
Ray. |
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| rowemeister |
I have done similar mods, more in some areas but I have not touched the HF amp caps or the HDAM.
Q: What benefit have you gained from this?
Q: What difference do you hear bypassing the HDAM?
I do recommend you fit a clock. This player loves a good clock.
Also Supply the DAC and Decoder with a dedicated REG so that they are seperate from the rest of the noisey circuit, you will be suprised how well this works.
I have changed all the resistors around the op amp to 0.1% tol type + silver mica caps.
I will have to post my 63KI mods too! |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by 6h5c
I'd like to donate my files to this forum, for all to enjoy! :D
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Thank you very much for sharing this fantastic list of modifications. :nod:
I too have a CD63ki and I have used an Audiocom clock with a dedicated external supply, I installed new op-amps (OPA627bp), and have changed or removed dozens of other components (eg. removed muting transistors and dc blocking caps). The sound is very good.
I have yet to play with the regulators, but this is something I'll look at soon. Also, I have not touched the HDAM, yet.
From your PDF:
"the HDAM-circuit looks nice, but when moving up to better opamps and interconnects this circuit starts to
interfere and degrades sound quality. To disable HDAM: remove R651...654 (+/- 12V), R617/618 and
RH23/24. Insert wire jumper at R619/620."
I have good op-amps and interconnects etc., so it is time to try this mod. Without having the service manual in front of me, I cannot picture how your changes bypass the HDAM - does the wire jumper from R619/20 bypass the whole circuit, if so where does it connect, at the phono sockets?
I second Brent's question about how it affects sound quality.
Thanks and regards |
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| rowemeister |
SIMON.
The four resistors R651 - 654 supply the two HDAM circuits with +/- 12V.
R617 and 618 are the audio input resistors, these need removing to stop audio entering the HDAM.
RH23 and 24 are the output resistors from the HDAM, removing these prevents audio going backwards into the HDAM.
Resistors R619/620 bypass the whole HDAM (like in the CD43/53)
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
The four resistors R651 - 654 supply the two HDAM circuits with +/- 12V.
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Ok, nice. Better lift those then.
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
R617 and 618 are the audio input resistors, these need removing to stop audio entering the HDAM.
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Fantastic, yoink they'll go!
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
RH23 and 24 are the output resistors from the HDAM, removing these prevents audio going backwards into the HDAM.
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Splendid, a similar fate awaits said carbon devices.
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
Resistors R619/620 bypass the whole HDAM (like in the CD43/53)
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This was the part I understood less well - how can there exist resistors that bypass it when it's not meant to be bypassed in this player? Are these just not connected normally then? Just unused spaces?
I may even pop the hood this evening and have a tinker. I'll probably break it :cool:
Cheers for explaining what the bits do. :yes: |
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| rowemeister |
The bypass resistors are not fitted on the CD63/SE/KI.
They are fitted to the CD43/53 ;) |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
The bypass resistors are not fitted on the CD63/SE/KI.
They are fitted to the CD43/53 ;) |
Right then, so it finally makes sense to my tiny mind, cheers ;) |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
SIMON.
The four resistors R651 - 654 supply the two HDAM circuits with +/- 12V.
R617 and 618 are the audio input resistors, these need removing to stop audio entering the HDAM.
RH23 and 24 are the output resistors from the HDAM, removing these prevents audio going backwards into the HDAM.
Resistors R619/620 bypass the whole HDAM (like in the CD43/53)
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
The bypass resistors are not fitted on the CD63/SE/KI.
They are fitted to the CD43/53 ;) |
Hi guys!
Thanks rowemeister, I have nothing to add to the above!
You will find the sound without HDAM more open and transparent.
It's one of the well-known veils that will be removed ;-)
A dedicated clock with proper PSU indeed works very well (another veil) ;-)
Regards,
Ray. |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by 6h5c
You will find the sound without HDAM more open and transparent.
It's one of the well-known veils that will be removed ;-)
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Well, now you've got my hopes up ;)
Thanks for your quick reply and comment.
Could this effect be likened to comparing an active pre-amp with a passive one? I hope not, as this would mean a loss of bass and dynamics (but the benefits above). You may consider this question as rhetorical, as I fully intend to perform the surgery on my player and report sonic changes, if any.
Regards |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by 6h5c
A dedicated clock with proper PSU indeed works very well (another veil) ;-) |
Ahha, nice pic, and yes I entirely agree - a clock (only with fresh psu tho) transforms the player.
Might I humbly suggest you try OPA627bp on daughter-boards, as it looks like you're using OPA2132/4 or something (can't quite make it out). And 627 pees all over them.
Thanks. |
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| rowemeister |
Ha very good. Nice pic.
I advise changing the regulators for an even better sound. Check Audiocom out on ebay.
Ill post some pics soon. Its under going more mods and may as well do the HDAM one too. |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
Ahha, nice pic, and yes I entirely agree - a clock (only with fresh psu tho) transforms the player.
Might I humbly suggest you try OPA627bp on daughter-boards, as it looks like you're using OPA2132/4 or something (can't quite make it out). And 627 pees all over them.
Thanks. |
Hm, sharp vision you have... Don't worry, the 2134's are temporary, since this picture is made when the player was still on the workbench...
Regards,
Ray. |
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| rowemeister |
whooo
Where did you get those?
I want some, please tell me....now!!!!
:bigeyes: |
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| 6h5c |
Here's a list of some opamps and their data. I tried most of them in my CD67. The ones with some form of comment in the Pref. column are favorites. The data helps me to establish a relation between the numbers and the fact that a certain type sounds good.
Regards,
Ray. |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
whooo
Where did you get those?
I want some, please tell me....now!!!!
:bigeyes: |
You are not familiar with the BrownDog adapters yet???
http://www.cimarrontechnology.com/index.asp
This enables me to use dedicated single opamps after the DAC and in the analog filter.
Ray. |
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| rowemeister |
cheers for that.
I currently use OPA2134 and I am very happy with them but I would'nt mind getting a pair of those Browndog pcbs with OPA627 fitted. |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by 6h5c
Here's a list of some opamps and their data. I tried most of them in my CD67. The ones with some form of comment in the Pref. column are favorites. The data helps me to establish a relation between the numbers and the fact that a certain type sounds good.
Regards,
Ray. |
Interesting, thanks for sharing. I see the 627bp is there ;-)
But not LM6172, Thorstoen's favourite when he modded this player. I bought this one to try but since 627bp was so mindblowingly good I didn't bother trying. I actually use LM6172 in my preamp, which gives a detailed heavyweight solid sound. |
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| navin |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
I will have to post my 63KI mods too! |
Great. I await this. |
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| float |
Its good to see this topic again:)
I've been meaning to bypass the HDAMs for ages; it seems a totally unnecessary waste of parts when the opamps will drive headphones!
It may be worth adding an 18 volt supply just for the opamps at the samr time - apparently they like the higher voltage and it would increase their output capability:confused:
I'll also confirm (IMO) the 627s easily better the 2132/2134s. |
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| float |
Another thought; has anyone done a reality check; modded cd63 against a modern decent player?
I haven't and it does nag at me that I might be wasting my time..:xeye: |
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| DJNUBZ |
| Would these mods work the same on the cd-53? |
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| float |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJNUBZ
Would these mods work the same on the cd-53? |
AS far as I know, the cd53 doesn't have HDAMs, so you're off to a flying start:cool:
I'd guess this makes the opamps even more important, so get some good ones in pronto!
i'd say all the usual mods should work just the same. |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJNUBZ
Would these mods work the same on the cd-53? |
| quote: | Originally posted by float
AS far as I know, the cd53 doesn't have HDAMs, so you're off to a flying start:cool:
I'd guess this makes the opamps even more important, so get some good ones in pronto!
i'd say all the usual mods should work just the same. |
Yep, I can second that. The CD53 and 63 as well as the CD57 and 67 have the same PCB. All four use the same DAC, analog filter and HDAM, and parts of the circuit are very much alike, exept for little differences. But a CD57/67 is preferred for better PSU, and the layout is definately improved.
I buy cheap broken CD57's for a scratch, and then mod them for about 150-200 euro's. They blow away a lot of expensive players. Always like the looks on peoples faces when I press play on 'an old CD57'.... |
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| navin |
| quote: | Originally posted by float
Another thought; has anyone done a reality check; modded cd63 against a modern decent player?
I haven't and it does nag at me that I might be wasting my time..:xeye: |
Me too! esp since my 63Ki is about 10 years old. |
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| rowemeister |
Yes CD53 is easily modded, the only difference between it and the 63 is the HDAM and a few features.
The only problem with the 53/63 is when you dont want to heavily mod the player....what I mean is the 63SE has alot of uprated components so is already 'modded' by marantz and will benefit a few good choice mods like the op amps , some bypassing and a few caps like Blackgates.
If you are going to eventually change most caps and resistors to higher spec items then you may as well start off with the 53/63.
Best to practice on your player and if the time arrives buy a KI off ebay and do a component swap to it. The KI benefits from the SE caps etc + copper chassis and a toroidal transormer. |
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| Luke |
I have the schematics of this player and it seems that the hdam is a discreet shielded buffer using highly desirable jfets!
Ive read diyers on these threads talk about adding discrete buffers to increase performance and now that a manufacturer has gone to the trouble of giving us one it sounds better without:confused:
Could it be that it sounds different and to some tastes its better?
regards arthur |
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| rowemeister |
I have not bypassed mine yet, but I will be to see the differences.
The other thing to do is possibly upgrade the components in the HDAM. |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by float
Another thought; has anyone done a reality check; modded cd63 against a modern decent player?
I haven't and it does nag at me that I might be wasting my time..:xeye: |
| quote: | Originally posted by navin
Me too! esp since my 63Ki is about 10 years old. |
Hi Navin, Float,
The sound of a standard CD63 out-of-the-box is nothing compared to that of a well modded one, it's unbelievable what these players (CD53/63/57/67/OSE/KI) are capable of. If one of these players is well modded, it's definately a high-end player.
But the rest of your audio setup has to be on a VERY decent level to enjoy this. Next thing you know you'll be out for new (expensive) interlinks because they hold the player back. And you will dislike 70% of your CD collection, because now you finally hear how bad the recordings actually are.
A lot of modern players are blown away by such an old modded Marantz. Maybe it's because most modern DACs have part of the analog output stage integrated. Here's a nice article by Thorsten Loesh that covers some thoughts on DACs: http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendel...fda/vasfda.html
It seems that the SM5872 is not such a bad one....
Regards,
Ray. |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by Luke
I have the schematics of this player and it seems that the hdam is a discreet shielded buffer using highly desirable jfets!
Ive read diyers on these threads talk about adding discrete buffers to increase performance and now that a manufacturer has gone to the trouble of giving us one it sounds better without:confused:
Could it be that it sounds different and to some tastes its better?
regards arthur |
Hi Arthur,
If you take a crappy opamp, like the 2114, and put a HDAM circuit behind it, it may sound better. But if you find an opamp that performs well in this circuit, why would you need to buffer it? Then you'll find that with the HDAM circuit it will sound worse.
I try to follow the 'less is better' principle. Don't put all this extra electronics in your signal path, it will not add to your music, only more noise and distortion. It makes a nice marketing point though, and I also love the shine of those copper shield cans....
Regards,
Ray. |
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| 6h5c |
Yep,
I recently upgraded to Nordost Solar Wind, but i'm afraid it's not enough.
Ray. |
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| rowemeister |
Yeah less is more.
I will be keeping the cans ;) |
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| rowemeister |
I am currently using the Cable Talk Reference 3.
0.5M interconnect. And I liked the improvement it made.
Do you get Northern lights above your cd player with all that solar wind!!!
:D |
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| kptseng |
Hi All,
I've heard of some mod that bypass or replace the HDAM circuit with Op-amp.
I'm using CD6000 and hope I can get some insight to this mod.
Thanks.
King |
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| Luke |
| quote: | | If you take a crappy opamp, like the 2114, and put a HDAM circuit behind it, it may sound better. But if you find an opamp that performs well in this circuit, why would you need to buffer it? Then you'll find that with the HDAM circuit it will sound worse. |
Hi Ray,
so what your saying is that if you use a crap opamp, the hdam will improve the sound. If you use a good opamp the hdam will improve the sound?
Seems to me KI would be well aware of this wouldnt he? Surely a decent opamp is not as expensive as the sexy copper cans alone:)
But you got me curious and I would like to try this although its not minor and I blew my last player up:(
cheers Arthur |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
Yeah less is more.
I will be keeping the cans ;) |
I kept them too, coudn't resist. There's a straight wire running under it :D
Ray. |
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| rowemeister |
Sweet!
I will be bypassing mine with a little bit of silver wire :) |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by kptseng
Hi All,
I've heard of some mod that bypass or replace the HDAM circuit with Op-amp.
I'm using CD6000 and hope I can get some insight to this mod.
Thanks.
King |
Hi King,
The CD6000 is a different story. It uses two SM5872 DACs (lucky you...). The 'normal' CD6000 then uses one 2114 dual opamp per channel in the filter and a HDAM circuit as buffer, the OSE uses dual HDAM in the filter, on a separate PCB, and a HDAM as buffer.
I think it would make more sense to try and replace these two 2114 opamps with decent ones.
The HDAM buffer part uses differential inputs because of the dual DACs. It's difficult to bypass this because it also does some kind of differential-to-single-ended conversion.
Ray. |
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| rowemeister |
| yeah ditch those 2114 before anything else :) |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by Luke
Hi Ray,
so what your saying is that if you use a crap opamp, the hdam will improve the sound. If you use a good opamp the hdam will improve the sound?
Seems to me KI would be well aware of this wouldnt he? Surely a decent opamp is not as expensive as the sexy copper cans alone:)
But you got me curious and I would like to try this although its not minor and I blew my last player up:(
cheers Arthur |
Hi Arthur,
Well, allmost. With a crappy opamp the extra HDAM circuit MAY improve the sound. With a good opamp already in place, chances are great that the extra circuitry will degrade the sound.
As I said, the shiny cans and the HDAM circuit are a great selling point, you don't get it in a CD57. Also they don't want the player to sound TOO good for it's money. The CD57/67/67OSE/67KI all use the same PCB, DAC, decoder and so on. They just change a few parts in production to make different sounding players. But this 2114 opamp is even used in more expensive players, like the CD17!
Ray. |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
Sweet!
I will be bypassing mine with a little bit of silver wire :) |
You have sharp vision, this is silver too :D
Ray. |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by Luke
so what your saying is that if you use a crap opamp, the hdam will improve the sound. If you use a good opamp the hdam will improve the sound?
Seems to me KI would be well aware of this wouldnt he? Surely a decent opamp is not as expensive as the sexy copper cans alone:)
|
I understand fully your point of view, but I feel that this sort of hi-fi product is not designed to be as high fidelity as possible. It is designed, I feel, to give an impressive sound. I'd describe the unmodded 63ki as giving a 'thrilling wallop'. But it doesn't deliver the musical goods. We mod to give great sound in every way, but players are manufactured with costs in mind, and things like good psu bypassing of op-amps is perhaps not so easy to do for them. We don't need to compromise. And don't forget the little HDAM badge on the front. And the sort of sonic change this brings is perhaps the sort that will impress in a very quick listen. |
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| rowemeister |
Well there is only one way to find out!!!!
But has I said before less is more. We remove output caps, muting transistor etc to minimise the component count that can and will effect the audio. So bypassing the HDAM must be better.
On a lighter note here is a little pic of a section of my KI.
A few more very good mods on the way too.
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| rowemeister |
And another of the 12V regs
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
Well there is only one way to find out!!!!
But has I said before less is more. We remove output caps, muting transistor etc to minimise the component count that can and will effect the audio. So bypassing the HDAM must be better.
On a lighter note here is a little pic of a section of my KI.
A few more very good mods on the way too.
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Hi rowemeister,
Nice pics!
I see you have C901/902 still in there, that lead to the headphone part. These traces run alongside the DAC and will take some noise with them, right into the analog part. If you take them out you can prevent that. While you are at it, take out U139/140 to disable the +/- 12V.
Here's my latest mods list that I made while modding a CD57. It has more detailed info than the previous lists.
Ray. |
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| SimontY |
Mmm, Audiocom regs :drool:
I will be getting some soon, as soon as I have money! :smash: |
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| rowemeister |
I will look into that.
I have on order some black gates caps 16V 470uF for the opamps (C611-614)
Replacing schottky diodes with HexFRED ones.
Building seperate regulation for clock (12v) and DAC/DEC (5V) using audio com regs and black gate caps with inductors. The 5V reg for the DAC will be a INVUSUS one :D
I am waiting for some Browndog pcbs to arrive so I can replace the OPA2134 with OPA627 :rolleyes:
Does anyone know the cheapest place to get these OPA627 from? |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by 6h5c
I see you have C901/902 still in there, that lead to the headphone part. These traces run alongside the DAC and will take some noise with them, right into the analog part. If you take them out you can prevent that. While you are at it, take out U139/140 to disable the +/- 12V.
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Looks like a nice little mod. I simply unplugged my headphone socket, but I will go further and do as you suggest here. I would actually use the socket with my Sennheiser HD600s, but it sounds bloody awful!!! The cans are restricted to compuer use :xeye: |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
Does anyone know the cheapest place to get these OPA627 from? |
I got my OPA627BP for free using the BB sample program.
They must have ran out, because they don't offer it anymore :D
Ray. |
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| rowemeister |
That makes me feel better :( cheers :bawling:
I can get them through work for £25 each (OPA627 S08) and I need 4 :cannotbe: |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
That makes me feel better :( cheers :bawling:
I can get them through work for £25 each (OPA627 S08) and I need 4 :cannotbe: |
Sorry, couldn't resist....
www.farnell.com is a little cheaper, especially if you are satisfied with the A grade. But why do you want to use four of them? You can use a cheaper one in the filter, it's less critical. And it will make your player sound less ''Brown'', if you know what I mean.
If you look in my opamp list you'll see OPA124 has good spec's also.
You can also sign up with Analog's sample program and get some AD8610, for free ;)
Ray. |
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| float |
Wow. Turn your back for a minute and there's a million posts!:D
I got my opa627's from usacaps on ebay. Cost about $20 for 5.
Dip rather than so8 though.
Regarding the audiocom regs, I remember some grumbling on the forums that these were not that great....I'm no expert here, but it might be worth some investigation before spending your money.
I notice tentlabs have just released some similar devices, and then there's the ALW jung superregs...
Just to complicate things.:bawling: |
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| rowemeister |
OPA124.. mmmmm
So what you are saying is that 4X opa627 is not very good?
If I buy 2 opa124 does this solder to the bottom of the browndog pcb or the top?
I like the audiocom regs, they are worth the ebay prices! |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
OPA124.. mmmmm
So what you are saying is that 4X opa627 is not very good?
If I buy 2 opa124 does this solder to the bottom of the browndog pcb or the top? |
It is good, but there are even better and cheaper alternatives, even for free if you use the sample programs. I didn't pay for all of these :D
The OPA124 or AD8610 can be used instead of OPA627 after the DAC, and then goes on top of the adapter, that's IC1. In the filter I use OPA132, AD8510 or also AD8610, this goes on the bottom.
If you look in the opamp table you can pick one that has nice specs. For the DAC low input offset voltage and low input bias current seems to work well. The more yellow the better.
Ray. |
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| rowemeister |
LOL nice stock. It looks a like my stock of eproms I program for car ecu's.
I have purchased 2X OPA627AU and 2X OPA124UA from Farnell.
They came to £42 ish. I thought this was ok.
So with these chips I put OPA124 ontop (ic1) and the OPA627 on the bottom (ic2)
I have just ordered some gold plated sockets for the pcb to fit into also :D |
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| SimontY |
| Nice ordering work there Brent.... and the final step will be psu bypass on the 'dogs. |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
LOL nice stock. It looks a like my stock of eproms I program for car ecu's.
I have purchased 2X OPA627AU and 2X OPA124UA from Farnell.
They came to £42 ish. I thought this was ok.
So with these chips I put OPA124 ontop (ic1) and the OPA627 on the bottom (ic2)
I have just ordered some gold plated sockets for the pcb to fit into also :D |
Hi,
No, i'm afraid you didn't read everything and ordered too fast. :whazzat:
The OPA124 or AD8610 can be used INSTEAD of OPA627 after the DAC, and then goes on top of the adapter, that's IC1. In the filter I use OPA132, AD8510 or also AD8610, this goes on the bottom, so that would be IC2 on the adapter.
Ray. |
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| rowemeister |
Why thank you Simon ;)
I think these should be called Dogs bollocks. hehe
Yep I will bypass them with 10uF blackgates and 0.1uF polypropylene.
I now have 4 top mods pending... can't wait. Hopefully early next week all the bits will be here :devilr: |
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| rowemeister |
OK they were cheap anyway lol
Would you not recommend something better than the OPA132, it is very cheap to buy and dont mind spending more.
I will be using OPA627 for ic1 |
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| rowemeister |
| My brain hurts lol |
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| ozone_stink |
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
Thank you very much for sharing this fantastic list of modifications. :nod:
I too have a CD63ki and I have used an Audiocom clock with a dedicated external supply, I installed new op-amps (OPA627bp), and have changed or removed dozens of other components (eg. removed muting transistors and dc blocking caps). The sound is very good.
I have yet to play with the regulators, but this is something I'll look at soon. Also, I have not touched the HDAM, yet.
From your PDF:
"the HDAM-circuit looks nice, but when moving up to better opamps and interconnects this circuit starts to
interfere and degrades sound quality. To disable HDAM: remove R651...654 (+/- 12V), R617/618 and
RH23/24. Insert wire jumper at R619/620."
I have good op-amps and interconnects etc., so it is time to try this mod. Without having the service manual in front of me, I cannot picture how your changes bypass the HDAM - does the wire jumper from R619/20 bypass the whole circuit, if so where does it connect, at the phono sockets?
I second Brent's question about how it affects sound quality.
Thanks and regards |
I have the .pdf of the service manual for the CD43_53_63 on hand if anybody wants it.
BTW, everybody raves about the OPA627s even thought the AD8610s look better on paper. Has anybody compared the two back to back? -I'm using the AD8620 (dual 8610) from Brown Dog in my Rotel RCD 02 and I'm quite happy with them.
mattgwood(at)yahoo(d0t)ca |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
OK they were cheap anyway lol
Would you not recommend something better than the OPA132, it is very cheap to buy and dont mind spending more.
I will be using OPA627 for ic1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
My brain hurts lol |
I can imagine why. My brain would also hurt if I had spent so much $$$ on that Audiocom stuff. You could have had a decent new player by now.
Why is the OPA132 not good enough, is it because it's not expensive enough?? Have you ever considered listening to it first? :confused:
Ray. |
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| rowemeister |
| I have the sevice manual but wouldnt mind it in pdf format ;) |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by 6h5c
I can imagine why. My brain would also hurt if I had spent so much $$$ on that Audiocom stuff. You could have had a decent new player by now.
Why is the OPA132 not good enough, is it because it's not expensive enough?? Have you ever considered listening to it first? :confused:
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The Audiocom stuff might be great - have you tried it?
He is using 2134, so yes, it has been done.
I have used 2132 for a while and assessed it over many months. Then I moved to 627bp, and it is another league entirely. If you cannot hear this clearly you may need to upgrade speakers, amps, cabling, room, supports, mains etc.
edit: I misread OPA132 as OPA2132, so I'll go back to sleep now :-/
For sure, several combinations should be tried, unless they're insanely expensive. |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by ozone_stink
BTW, everybody raves about the OPA627s even thought the AD8610s look better on paper. Has anybody compared the two back to back? -I'm using the AD8620 (dual 8610) from Brown Dog in my Rotel RCD 02 and I'm quite happy with them.
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Hi Matt,
I agree. I think it's because the OPA627 has an 'audiophile' status of some kind. I compared it with AD8610, OPA124, OPA227.... see list.
And the winner was not the OPA627. It sounds not as clear and detailed as others.
Regards,
Ray. |
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| rowemeister |
6h5c..
I was only enquiring if there was better for more money incase you thought I did'nt want to spend much :cool:
The super regs you see on my picture were only £16 each off ebay and they were the perfect size to fit between the big caps.
My brain hurts knowing which op amps to settle on. I know all of them are going to be good, and the Browndog pcb with 627 on will be better than my opa2134.
Anyway I have bought some opa132. You seem to like them so ill give it a go ;)
Thanks |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by rowemeister
6h5c..
I was only enquiring if there was better for more money incase you thought I did'nt want to spend much :cool:
The super regs you see on my picture were only £16 each off ebay and they were the perfect size to fit between the big caps.
My brain hurts knowing which op amps to settle on. I know all of them are going to be good, and the Browndog pcb with 627 on will be better than my opa2134.
Anyway I have bought some opa132. You seem to like them so ill give it a go ;)
Thanks |
Hi rowemeister,
No offense meant. Should have posted an extra ;)
But i'm a bit sceptic towards Audiocom stuff.
Regards,
Ray. |
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| SimontY |
On a different note, has anyone tried removing the transformer and housing it in a separate box, for purposes of isolation?
My clock psu is external, so I thought I could combine them in one box and have no transformers in the player, just a DIN connector or molex style or similar.
6h5c, if you don't mind me asking, what would your preferred voltage regulator setup be?
thanks |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
He is using 2134, so yes, it has been done.
I have used 2132 for a while and assessed it over many months. Then I moved to 627bp, and it is another league entirely. If you cannot hear this clearly you may need to upgrade speakers, amps, cabling, room, supports, mains etc.
For sure, several combinations should be tried, unless they're insanely expensive. |
Hi Simon,
I was referring to an OPA132 in the filter part, that works o.k. I find it comes short after the DAC. An OPA627 will indeed do better there.
Finding the right combination for DAC and filter takes a lot of listening and experimenting.
Ray. |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by 6h5c
I was referring to an OPA132 in the filter part, that works o.k. I find it comes short after the DAC. An OPA627 will indeed do better there.
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Ok, thanks. I am reluctant to take apart my 627 boards, but for greater knowledge I will need to hear more combinations, and I am willing to believe it could be even better (than 2 x 627bp). But when I put these in I was so impressed compared to the previous dual op-amps I tried: JRC2114, OPA2604, OPA2132 - all of these sound very flawed in one way or another by comparison. But I have not tried 627 in combination with something else. I will need to get more adapters and try this in the future :xeye: |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
6h5c, if you don't mind me asking, what would your preferred voltage regulator setup be?
thanks |
Hi Simon,
My favorite setup would be an active regulator with passive filtering, maybe some small chokes. But that doesn't fit in the cabinet :D
Ray. |
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| DJNUBZ |
| Well I would like to mod my cd53 but I have never moded a player electricly before. I do know how to use a soldering iron though. I know I could go through and do every mod listed but I think for my first try I want to go small. If you had to decide on the three mods that make the largest improvement what would they be? I have a feeling that changing the opamps is going to be in the list but I am not sure. |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJNUBZ
Well I would like to mod my cd53 but I have never moded a player electricly before. I do know how to use a soldering iron though. I know I could go through and do every mod listed but I think for my first try I want to go small. If you had to decide on the three mods that make the largest improvement what would they be? I have a feeling that changing the opamps is going to be in the list but I am not sure. |
Hello!
1 - remove dc blocking caps and short the spaces with a piece of wire
2 - add an after market clock
3 - power the clock with dedicated power
4 - change the op-amps
Damn, four!! But that's the four that are needed IMO, other than the obvious mechanical changes! |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
Ok, thanks. I am reluctant to take apart my 627 boards, but for greater knowledge I will need to hear more combinations, and I am willing to believe it could be even better (than 2 x 627bp). But when I put these in I was so impressed compared to the previous dual op-amps I tried: JRC2114, OPA2604, OPA2132 - all of these sound very flawed in one way or another by comparison. But I have not tried 627 in combination with something else. I will need to get more adapters and try this in the future :xeye: |
Hi,
I use mainly single opamps, with the SMD's mounted on some extra DIL adapters. I compared a lot of combinations with a single to dual DIL adapter. There lot's of good opamps only available in SO-8 these days.
Ray. |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJNUBZ
Well I would like to mod my cd53 but I have never moded a player electricly before. I do know how to use a soldering iron though. I know I could go through and do every mod listed but I think for my first try I want to go small. If you had to decide on the three mods that make the largest improvement what would they be? I have a feeling that changing the opamps is going to be in the list but I am not sure. |
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
Hello!
1 - remove dc blocking caps and short the spaces with a piece of wire
2 - add an after market clock
3 - power the clock with dedicated power
4 - change the op-amps
Damn, four!! But that's the four that are needed IMO, other than the obvious mechanical changes! |
Don't forget to remove the muting transistors!
Ray. |
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| davidsrsb |
Both the CD63 and CD6000 families are let down by the single tracking layer plus ground plane aproach. Most of the chips and decoupling have very indirect 0V connections. A few well placed chip ceramics might have far more effect than all of these audiophile exotica being suggested.
I have a CD63SE (died from the servo chip warm up problem) and a Marantz 6000 OSE (with servo chip warm up problem), the latter actually looks like a cost down with the extra DAC and HDAMs thrown in for marketing excitement.
Looking at the supplies around the smd chips, even their 0V connections are noisy and the +5V is worse. The master clock is obviously jittery and the 470R series termination resistors in the clock outputs to the DACs and servo is too large, turning the secondary clocks into 3V pk-pk triangle waves. A suitable ferrite bead could give a much cleaner clock. |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by 6h5c
Hi,
I use mainly single opamps, with the SMD's mounted on some extra DIL adapters. I compared a lot of combinations with a single to dual DIL adapter. There lot's of good opamps only available in SO-8 these days.
Ray. |
Interesting. The pic, which is good, makes me wonder about all the extra trace and pin path for the signal. Does this not make it of paramount importance to place psu caps on each op-amp?
cheers |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by 6h5c
Don't forget to remove the muting transistors!
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I didn't really hear any improvement taking these out, and he did ask for the top 3! Taking those caps out tho - wow! The bass! |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
Interesting. The pic, which is good, makes me wonder about all the extra trace and pin path for the signal. Does this not make it of paramount importance to place psu caps on each op-amp?
cheers |
I managed to get two decoupling caps under the IC sockets. I use this setup only for testing. After I find a good SMD opamp combo I solder them on a single-to-dual SO8 adapter that goes into the player.
Ray. |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by davidsrsb
Both the CD63 and CD6000 families are let down by the single tracking layer plus ground plane aproach. Most of the chips and decoupling have very indirect 0V connections. A few well placed chip ceramics might have far more effect than all of these audiophile exotica being suggested.
Looking at the supplies around the smd chips, even their 0V connections are noisy and the +5V is worse. The master clock is obviously jittery and the 470R series termination resistors in the clock outputs to the DACs and servo is too large, turning the secondary clocks into 3V pk-pk triangle waves. A suitable ferrite bead could give a much cleaner clock. |
I agree, the PCB is not optimum. The CD57/67 layout is better though. But the local decoupling is also very important, a few small caps make a big difference!
I use a lot of 100n PPS capacitors on the bottom of the PCB, to replace the original 47n ceramics, and to put in parallel with the swapped el-caps.
Ray. |
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| SimontY |
| I wish I could solder like that! :att'n: |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
I wish I could solder like that! :att'n: |
It's not too difficult. Use an iron with a fine tip that's not too hot, and thin solder wire with low-flux core. Place the el-cap in the PCB and bend the wires. Place the PPS cap on the bottom and solder it, that's all!
Ray. |
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| SimontY |
| Ahha, I see the 'trick' to it now, very sharp pic, thanks. I've never even attempted to solder SMD, but as I get better I may try some caps. My DIL op-amp sockets are just looked after by 47uF Pany FC under the pcb. |
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| DJNUBZ |
1 - remove dc blocking caps and short the spaces with a piece of wire
2 - add an after market clock
3 - power the clock with dedicated power
4 - change the op-amps
Well technicaly that could be three
1 - remove dc blocking caps and short the spaces with a piece of wire
2 - add an after market clock and power the clock with dedicated power
3 - change the op-amps
I got the player for about $30 and it does skip a bit sometimes so I don't want to put a large amount of cash into it. The price of most clocks are more then I am willing to spend. Is there an affordable alternative? How about the kwak clock?
Could you tell me what opamp to get and how many I will need? I know that people here have different opinions on them but I couldn't tell a good one from a bad by specs. |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJNUBZ
Well technicaly that could be three
1 - remove dc blocking caps and short the spaces with a piece of wire
2 - add an after market clock and power the clock with dedicated power
3 - change the op-amps
I got the player for about $30 and it does skip a bit sometimes so I don't want to put a large amount of cash into it. The price of most clocks are more then I am willing to spend. Is there an affordable alternative? How about the kwak clock?
Could you tell me what opamp to get and how many I will need? I know that people here have different opinions on them but I couldn't tell a good one from a bad by specs. |
Hi,
As an alternative the Kwak-clock is very easy to build. You can also use the single-supply version. Or you can use a Tent labs XO oscillator module, also works very well, with even less parts count. In the picture you see a small PCB I made, with a Kwak-clock oscillator and buffer, and a two-stage PSU. But you can also use vero-board.
As for the opamps, if you go for dual ones I can recommend the AD8620, you will need one for each channel. That will give you a lot of improvement compared to the original JRC2114.
To cure the skipping problem you can try cleaning the pickup lens, with a bit of isopropanol and a cotton-tip. If the lens is clean or it doesn't help, you can try and increase the laser-current a bit. There's a small adjustable trimmer on the flexfoil of the laser-unit. If you carefully turn it a few degrees clockwise that may help.
Regards,
Ray. |
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| guido |
More caps exposed..
Next to the dac is a tent clock, right on the pcb. PS comes from an alw reg which also feeds the +5 clock ps on the dac.
Second alw reg for the +5 analog ps on the dac. Both have are fed by a 317 ps with own transformer.
Rest of the mods is like mentioned here (opamps/mute/headphone/etc).
it's a 63ki |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
Ahha, I see the 'trick' to it now, very sharp pic, thanks. I've never even attempted to solder SMD, but as I get better I may try some caps. My DIL op-amp sockets are just looked after by 47uF Pany FC under the pcb. |
Here's the decoder part. I also use SMD resistors in the analog filter. They are small 0,1% MELF type. They fit exactly between two pads and are far less expensive.
Regards,
Ray. |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by guido
More caps exposed..
Next to the dac is a tent clock, right on the pcb. PS comes from an alw reg which also feeds the +5 clock ps on the dac.
Second alw reg for the +5 analog ps on the dac. Both have are fed by a 317 ps with own transformer.
Rest of the mods is like mentioned here (opamps/mute/headphone/etc).
it's a 63ki |
Hey, nice job Guido! Should do that too actually. More caps closer to the chip. What case size did you use? If it gets any smaller we'll need microscopes!
Ray. |
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| guido |
| quote: | Originally posted by 6h5c
Hey, nice job Guido! Should do that too actually. More caps closer to the chip. What case size did you use? If it gets any smaller we'll need microscopes!
Ray. |
Umm, small :D
Cant remember, but if you look at the pic and the distances between the legs of the dac, you should be able to determine the size.
Did not do that much on the decoupling of the decoder/cpu etc. Just replaced the elco's with FC's and some smd caps iirc and swapped the ps diodes. Also those series restistors in the powerlines are replaced by inductors.
We should bring the the players to diy2006, can do a shoot-out ;)
opamps are 6172 |
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| 6h5c |
| quote: | Originally posted by guido
We should bring the the players to diy2006, can do a shoot-out ;)
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Yeah, I want to go there this year. When is it held?
Ray. |
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| rowemeister |
mmmmm food for thought.
I hope my seperate 5V and 12V psu pcb matches up to those babies once its done (next week) :apathic: |
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| DJNUBZ |
The Tent labs XO oscillator module looks like the right option for me because it is the simplest. Do I just replace the crystal with the piece or is there more I have to do? Would this be a simple job to do to upgrade most cd players? Would it work on a DVD player (ie. pioneer dv-578a)?
If putting the tent labs xo is as easy as it sounds I am going to do that, pull the DC blocking caps and upgrade the opamps. I havn't opened my player, are the opamps SMD? Is it just an R and R or is there more to putting them in? |
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| rowemeister |
What you are saying is somewhat of an open book!!
BUT the Tent labs XO oscillator module is a complete clock so you need to remove the two ceramic caps that are attached to the crystal and the 1 meg ohm res that decouples them.
I assume the Tents lab instructions tell you to do this!!!
Yes remove the 4 DC blocking caps and bridge out
Yes the op amp are a major uprade in most cd/dvd players so do it.....(you need to let us know what is inside your dvd first though for proper advise on any thing other than cd 63/67 etc and open a different thred)
;)
sorry if I dont sound helpful but im ****ed on good red wine and port lol |
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| DJNUBZ |
| I just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing. Rather then building or buying a whole clock unit I can buy the € 29 oscilator and just plug it in place of the crystal? |
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| guido |
| quote: | Originally posted by 6h5c
Yeah, I want to go there this year. When is it held?
Ray. |
www.dutchdiyaudio.nl 12 maart.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJNUBZ
I just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing. Rather then building or buying a whole clock unit I can buy the € 29 oscilator and just plug it in place of the crystal? |
Yes that is basically it (you have to remove the caps and resistor too). HOWEVER it only improves things if you also use a very good powersupply to feed it. In my case an ALW reg with preregulation. Or indeed buy/build a clock with powersupply included, many flavours to choose from.
Browsing through the digital section (search) should give you plenty to read.
Opamps are DIP package ( and they are dual opamps) replacement is rather simple, but if you put in a fast opamp (like that 6172), the decoupling needs to be improved. Otherwise it might behave badly |
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| Franz G |
My CD63 is now strictly modded by the Gerald Gessner style. This includes improving the power supplies for the DAC chip, changing ground layout and completely redesign of the output stage (just one OPA(2)134, passive filtering, no output caps).
One very interesting detail, I was not aware before: I inserted a Kwak Clock with the original quartz.
But the original Quartz is not precisely enough! It is a 16.935Mhz and not 16.9344! I does absolutely make no sense, to insert the original quartz into a Kwak, for this player!
Another very important hint you can find here:
http://www.acoustica.org.uk/t/63/63hacks.html
Franz
P.S.
Interesting detail: C522 and C523 are obsolete in any case, they don't exist in any service manual and should not be there! :D |
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