| Class D is nonaudiophile, not hi fi system, they are saying that! - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| destroyer X |
I was searching forums, and surfing the WEB and could see people that wrote that class D is not a serious audiophile system.
My God!
What happened with those guys when they born?... do you think they hit the head on floor or something alike?
Some loss of Oxigen when borning.
Some crazy nurse tried to kill them closing nose and mouth!
Or they had some enormous problem, as some nuclear bomb exploding near them?
Are those guys rigth?
See my genuine, real and full of hi fidelity expression when i read those things.
regards,
Carlos |
|
|
| destroyer X |
I turn more shocked!
Carlos |
|
|
| destroyer X |
They accepted that as a true!
My God!
Carlos |
|
|
| MikeB |
But it was true !
Early ClassD were only suitable for subwoofers, with this
handicap they were born, now they have to fight to be accepted,
now that they can be audiophile !
Mike |
|
|
| speaker |
| quote: | Originally posted by destroyer X
I was searching forums, and surfing the WEB and could see people that wrote that class D is not a serious audiophile system.
|
The class-D & hybrid movement overall seems to be growing at an exponential rate and I believe that as it continues to gain momentum, it will pick up adherents quite fast.
One year ago, I would not have said that. Today is a different story. Some very serious players on the chip & hardware side are involved with this technology and the latest generation of products are startling in how good they perform.
I believe we are seeing a dramatic reset on what it costs to build a high quality amplifier. To the hobbyist, that is a great thing. Never forget, "audiophile" is in the eyes of the beholder and it takes time for people to embrace new ideas and abandon the old.
speaker |
|
|
| destroyer X |
The world lost the track!....may be the end of the world.
This man is one of the best German computer Programmers, not a common man!
This is serious!
Carlos |
|
|
| destroyer X |
My God!....non audiophile, non serious listener.....my God!
Carlos |
|
|
| speaker |
| quote: | Originally posted by MikeB
But it was true !
Early ClassD were only suitable for subwoofers,
Mike |
Just a short decade ago, now they gain acceptance as fullrange. In 3 years, there will be no question at all.
speaker |
|
|
| speaker |
| quote: | Originally posted by destroyer X
My God!....non audiophile, non serious listener.....my God!
Carlos |
There is a place for them too. The uneducated can become the passionate user when shown the way & the path.
This debate is healthy & challenges your assumptions. Tubes vs. transistors will continue to rage & perhaps evolve to tubes vs. hybrids. Not a bad thing, everyone wins. A decade ago, who would have thought you could buy new, mesh plate 300B's as you can today. Everything good springs from spirited debate.
speaker |
|
|
| destroyer X |
hehe.... i do not care related what they said.... i am not satisfied because they did not even heard to evaluate and go talking alike parrots.
Carlos |
|
|
| Pierre |
| pretty faces! :D :D :D |
|
|
| dmason |
Just over two years ago people thought I and a couple others were nuts for saying that "digital" ie Tripath amps sounded pretty good. It started a war on several forums. Now people are thinking differently. Well, not all. It demonstrated just how rigid many minds actually are!
I currently run one of VinnieR's battery powered Tripath ClariT amps and it is just outstanding. Tubey mids, clear highs and the battery PSU lends astonishing bass control and transient impact.
It is my current standard, and contains the same 2024 chipset as the redoubtable Sonic Impact, but completely optimized. Have a look at the future....[redwineaudio.com] |
|
|
| jmateus |
That's understandable, it's human nature to resist to any change
to the "status quo"....... |
|
|
| destroyer X |
With a pen camera in front of the mirror and distorted colours and dimensions...also put a carbon paint on my face.
Made on purpose, to have fun with those guys that talk bad words against JLH designs and class D.
I happy you appreciate.
Je suis le pére de la beauté.... la plus grand representacion de la magnificence de lès audiophile de le monde.
hehe
Carlos |
|
|
| destroyer X |
The Wrigth brothers ... those time, those man was trying and hitting nose against beach sand.
And Santos Dumont, Bresilienne, made this fly..... start with engine, get speed and go to the Paris Skies making several turns around the pretty tower...and landed without hit his body.
But, beeing a gay..... was erased from History.
But we have proofs.
Carlos |
|
|
| destroyer X |
The thing was not deep enougth....i think they are confused, they are talking about movie films, camera adjustment alike focus and deepth focusing field.
Carlos |
|
|
| classd4sure |
Hi,
Detail and "focus" are something that seems to come rather easy even to crappy class D's, it's almost hard to miss.
Some people still seem to think semiconductors can't make for a good amplifier regardless of class, these types aren't the ones you'll ever convince otherwise. They've latched onto a particular audio myth and will die with it. I don't think it makes them smart, but rather ignorant.
The guy may be bright in his field of programming but it doesn't mean he's got any clue whatsoever.
Speaker said there is a place for these people too, I agree, someone has to buy the lesser amplifiers :)
Of course in this case serious quality class d's haven't actually been around very long and not everyone is so diligent in their research. Some will come up to speed and others will stay ignorant, so be it.
Cheers |
|
|
| destroyer X |
As i know this guy, and he is intelligent and not ignorant of the matter....he is resistant.... very strong resistance he make...but i will work hard to call him to our side, as he is a competent designer too....class AB very good designer and good ears he have...this chucrute is a very good sample of German guys.
Well, people makes noise but the carriage goes passing...that's it.
Regards,
Carlos |
|
|
| jmateus |
ClassD4sure
I'm sorry man, I don't think is a matter of being ignorant...
I think is more a fact of being resistant to the coming events...and
as a matter of fact class D is not yet so divulged as to have everybody
aware of that fact.
I think ignorance is terrible when people DON'T WANT to see or hear,
ignorance per se could be a matter of not knowing for the lack of
information but not being open minded enough is even worse...
Carlos was using his gun on himself, but I think he should use it on
somebody who DON'T WANT to hear and much less open his mind.... |
|
|
| dmason |
Ignorance = Bliss, ...so dont pity him.
One of the outstanding characteristics of Class D is its ability to control speaker drivers. It means drivers can perform far better than when used with any other amp topology. It seems to me that one can wring outstanding sonics from lesser speakers and drivers. This is not mentioned often. It means that when used with outstanding speakers, the overall system quality is ramped up way beyond what one gets with "great" SS and tube amps.
I for one, recently realized I had lost my taste for thermionic distortion. An interesting anecdote from a reformed Pentodist Preacher. |
|
|
| DeonC |
A friend of mine that loves triodes, and ownes a pair of 300B SE mono-blocks, bought a Tact digital amp. :bigeyes: This is the same guy who descibes almost all SS amps that he has heard as high-priced angle-grinders. He hates the sound, and his whole system is basically tube with Tannoy Autograph corner horns and ribbon tweeters on the end. When Chris (his name) said that he has bought a tube amp, I knew that digital has finally become a real and viable alternative. :)
Enjoy,
Deon |
|
|
| MikeB |
| quote: | Originally posted by jmateus
Carlos was using his gun on himself, but I think he should use it on
somebody who DON'T WANT to hear and much less open his mind.... |
I think Carlos shot his gun empty, but today he changed to a
very big gatling, setting to rapidfire with 240shots per minute... :D
Mike |
|
|
| phase_accurate |
One cause might be that class-d amps are often erroneously called digital.
Then there are the two camps 1.) the ones that think everything "digital" is cool and 2.) those who think that everything digital sucks.
Regards
Charles |
|
|
| dmason |
Then there is the other camp, the ones who follow their ears; the ones who decide based on what they hear. The ones who know what Real Music sounds like.
Class D amplification IMHO simply serves the music better, and is a better compromise overall. Crystalline highs, warm mids, jackhammer bass control, rise time of lightning thru battery power. Transient impact at lower listening levels. |
|
|
| classd4sure |
Hi,
Yes, some are resistant, some are cautious, others are ignorant. Two of which you can have hope for. My remarks would have been geared towards those who latch onto the myths without even trusting their own ears or for that matter admitting to them. Those who would be aware of the current happenings yet deny the facts, simply to deny them based on false beliefs... yeah, ignorant.
The others will follow, by will or by force:
Ten years from they'll be teaching class d in schools and it will go something like:
"Why "D" instead of "A" or "B" or.."
"Because it's digital"
Don't go ranting on me now, I know that's not the reason for the "D", but I'm saying in a period of time "D" will take over as the every day amp and the others will largely be forgotten.. except for the tube guys, they'll still be around :)
| quote: | | I for one, recently realized I had lost my taste for thermionic distortion. An interesting anecdote from a reformed Pentodist Preacher. |
Cool, a convert! What was it that pushed you over, did it start with a U and end with a D? Usee?..D! :clown: |
|
|
| phase_accurate |
| quote: | | jackhammer bass control |
Effortless bass is indeed one of the major advantages of class-d. A PA guy that I know was always complaining about "weak bass from digital amps" (I can't stand this naming BTW) and I assume that's where the bad reputation of class-d comes from:
If a topology sounds bad where it should actually excel then this points to a bad and/or cheap implementation (in this case a weak PSU).
Regards
Charles |
|
|
| classd4sure |
Hi,
It seems to be more than just the bass that it has incredible control over, perhaps that too is left over from the days of old?
I don't know, but the high's are incredible, maybe it's only because I've never heard a decent class b.
Was his weak PSU one of those deficient SMPS'?
Regards,
Chris |
|
|
| dmason |
In a word, "more." More of everything.
Especially the you-are-there factor. When it starts putting you in the venue and allowing you to hear backplane reflections behind and above the recording stage, etc., when you turn off the lights and your walls melt away, when your jaw drops every night, then its done. In the service of The Music, then there is no question, only arguments and preferences. As to the argument, I could care less. It is all about the music, whose cause seemingly gets lost, often. As to preferences, I prefer MORE.
The more you know the real acoustic overtones and complex harmonics of actual acoustic instruments, the more likely you will be to be a convert. That is what I have seen over and over and...
when you start using outstanding speakers, when you get rid of the crossovers, when you get off the National Electrical Grid, it starts to get scary good. Waaaaaay More. |
|
|
| MikeB |
| quote: | Originally posted by phase_accurate
Then there are the two camps 1.) the ones that think everything "digital" is cool and 2.) those who think that everything digital sucks.
|
And Camp Nr 1 really believes that "digital zoom" in their digicam
is something wonderful. It must be wonderful, because it's "digital"...
Mike |
|
|
| destroyer X |
As you are turning very bad with my Philips, you told he may be crab (hehe...the other word is erased automatically in our forum)
No hungry man?....well, think another use or put aside to use latter.
regards,
Carlos |
|
|
| destroyer X |
So.... they must know what they are saying, their image can be damaged if not a true.
Carlos |
|
|
| MikeB |
| quote: | Originally posted by destroyer X
As you are turning very bad with my Philips, you told he may be crab (hehe...the other word is erased automatically in our forum)
No hungry man?....well, think another use or put aside to use latter.
regards,
Carlos |
Njam, njam, njam...
Can't remember having called your Philips "crab"... ???
Mike |
|
|
| destroyer X |
hehe....i am becoming very bad chucrute!
But i like those German sausages too..... not good is some other hidden intentions related those protuberant objects....hehe
regards,
Carlos |
|
|
| destroyer X |
They may like that, anyway.
Carlos |
|
|
| speaker |
| quote: | Originally posted by dmason
Then there is the other camp, the ones who follow their ears; the ones who decide based on what they hear. The ones who know what Real Music sounds like. |
I'd like to think that describes me but I do listen to MP3's and internet streams most of the day now.......
Oddly though, I've bought more CDs over the last year since I started doing that than anytime prior! My previous concern was whether or not track #5 on the "Uraguan Highland Birdcalls Unplugged" had enough palpable presence with the latest series of amplifier mods I'd effected. I don't think I or my friends actually listened to much of anything back then other than 10 second A-B sections.
That being said, I am very excited by the degree of freedom class-D offers. With well sorted reference designs coming right from the chip manufacturers, it is putting great sounding products within reach of nearly anyone. Really, that is supposed to be how it works. I wonder though if the audio community at large will embrace these newcomers or consider them the barbarian horde at the gates of the sonic citadel?
:dead:
speakers |
|
|
| ghemink |
| quote: | Originally posted by classd4sure
Hi,
Detail and "focus" are something that seems to come rather easy even to crappy class D's, it's almost hard to miss.
Some people still seem to think semiconductors can't make for a good amplifier regardless of class, these types aren't the ones you'll ever convince otherwise. They've latched onto a particular audio myth and will die with it. I don't think it makes them smart, but rather ignorant.
The guy may be bright in his field of programming but it doesn't mean he's got any clue whatsoever.
Speaker said there is a place for these people too, I agree, someone has to buy the lesser amplifiers :)
Of course in this case serious quality class d's haven't actually been around very long and not everyone is so diligent in their research. Some will come up to speed and others will stay ignorant, so be it.
Cheers |
Yes, how do they do that. As you say, this is my experience as well, even cheap class D has better detail, focus, imaging than conventional AB. Well, in my case, the cheapest (finished product)class D was my 4-channel tripath based marantz for about 1000$. Of course UcD can be even cheaper and sounds much better than that Marantz. What is it that does this? I`m an electrical engineer, my standpiont is that if you can hear it, you must be able to measure it, you just have to find the right measurement method.
Any ideas?
Gertjan |
|
|
| speaker |
| quote: | Originally posted by ghemink
I`m an electrical engineer, my standpiont is that if you can hear it, you must be able to measure it, you just have to find the right measurement method.
|
Related, from 50 years ago & attributed to Daniel Recklinghausen -
"Measures bad, sounds good, you are measuring the wrong thing."
speaker |
|
|
| dmason |
| Forgive my non-engineering ignorance question, but, if it sounds good, who gives a **** about measurement? |
|
|
| speaker |
| quote: | Originally posted by dmason
Forgive my non-engineering ignorance question, but, if it sounds good, who gives a **** about measurement? |
Fine, if you are only making one.
speaker |
|
|
| subwo1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by ghemink
Yes, how do they do that. As you say, this is my experience as well, even cheap class D has better detail, focus, imaging than conventional AB. Well, in my case, the cheapest (finished product)class D was my 4-channel tripath based marantz for about 1000$. Of course UcD can be even cheaper and sounds much better than that Marantz. What is it that does this? I`m an electrical engineer, my standpiont is that if you can hear it, you must be able to measure it, you just have to find the right measurement method.
Any ideas?
Gertjan |
It could have something with the open loop frequency response. It needs to be flat in the audio band, to my knowledge. Some amps drop off as soon as 100hz. |
|
|
| phase_accurate |
One definitely positive attribute is their capability for driving almost any load with ease. There is still a slight shortfall (compared to good class A and AB) regarding the load dependancy of the frequency response but this has been improved greatly. There are many topologies around for achieving this, some even unpatented.
Another point of criticism might be the need for an output lowpass which keeps one from achieving really high cutoff frequencies. But this could be overcome by hybrid constructions, i.e. something like a fast A- or AB- amp supported by a switching current-dumper in parallel. Below you will find the simulation result of such a hypothetical topology when fed with the sum of a 1kHz sinusoidal and a 10 kHz rectangular. The main disadvantage is the increased complexity. The green track BTW is the residual current that has to be fed by the linear amp (into 6 Ohms).
Regards
Charles |
|
|
| tvicol |
destroyer X,
this is a class T amplifier. Truly digital.
Class D have nothing in common with digital and - in my opinion -with audiophile.
"Tripath Technology has developed a category of digital audio power amplifiers using a unique technology. Tripath amplifiers use a completely new proprietary method of Digital Power Processing™ that provides superior performance to conventional methods of amplification. For the first time, both high signal fidelity AND high power efficiency can be
achieved with the same technology. Tripath refers to this DPP™ based amplifier as a Class-T design. The underlying technology of Class-T does not use PWM and is not a pure analog approach (Classes -A and -AB). It combines the benefits of both with a completely
new approach." |
|
|
| phase_accurate |
I didn't expect that people from Eastern Europe were that gullible regarding American sales BS !!!!!
Ther ARE no digital amplifiers and there will NEVER BE ANY. Amplifiaction per se is an analog process, be it within a linear amplifier or within a switching amp.
The Tripath amps are either a self-oscillating hysteresis-controlled class-d or sigma-delta topology.
And they don't even take NFB at the output !!!!!!
I don't know where the rumour comes from that class-d per se was bad. A good PWM modulator is much more linear than a classical VAS without NFB. There are of course problems that have to be sorted out, but I think class-d is approaching a quality area only slightly below the better linear amps around. As already mentioned: The only disadvantage is the quite low upper cutoff frequency.
Regards
Charles |
|
|
| IVX |
| quote: | | It could have something with the open loop frequency response. |
And please note that e.g. UcD have an open loop gain around 30db, not 40-60 like AB one. IMHO, amazing transparency in the high's comes from it. |
|
|
| phase_accurate |
Yes, indeed another advantage of many class-d topologies (that I almost forgot about :o ) is the fact that one can define the open-loop BW almost freely.
Regards
Charles |
|
|
| destroyer X |
Yes, i put them all inside same bag, as half digital because of digital pulses, the on and off and half analogic as main pre amplifiers is analogic and speaker also.
But as i used to say, and many times i said that in our solid state forum.
"When we feel deep love we can hear music in our brain, and music not playing.... the noises, the party or street noises are cancelled and you enter another perception dimension, when you see the moving lips in a slow motion form, her voice is music"
Well, many of you lived that strong passion experience, if not...sorry for you guys, it is something for whole life...when i hear her, or watch her, or listen her name....i go into a deep delirium again...and i do not use any time of drugs, even not coffee because dislike it....not alcohol too.
If we can "create music"...if we can cancell noises of the environment...it is clear to me that brain can make "the difference" related to sound sources.
We know that exist some amplifiers that turn us tired when hearing long time..... you have enormous pleasure to shut them off!.....this do not happens with my Philips class D, half discrete system...have a lot of chips to amplification and to triangle wave creation to comparator and many microprocessor functions related commands.
We, as many friends bougth the same model, can hear without turn tired..... i am thinking, that the "difference" can be something easy to be "reconstructed" by brain, to be "processed" by brain and things hard to be "reconstructed".... to be "repaired"...or adjusted by brain..... class D seem to be easy to brain, as we do not feel tired, distort less than A and AB, and the sound is more clear...but really, lost that "spatial positioning" that i could perceive in good AB amplifiers as JLH and AKSA as examples, many others can be good too.
This construct inside me more "acceptance" to the ones imagine us as Barbarians (very good that!)..but i feel good to see the resistance movement.
That kind of amplifier, the class D is very old... and people "erasing it" ouf of the reasonable sound map!...this circuit was arrested by pre- conceptions along more than 25 years...i have some 1987 design, almost the same as my Philips....and was not accepted by the community.... a lot of people even do not hear and start to send bombs and making noise against it...this is non sense...not hearing, and judging.
I think may be some psychologic problem related that.
" All my life i worked, assembled, i sold, i suggest, i made and i heard class AB and others classes, except D.
Now it is clear that class D can beat all i heard, all i done, all i sold, all i suggest...and can do it easy...even at maximum volume!
This technology are killing what i made, what i heard, what i done and what i suggest..... are killing myself as a result!
Accept that, is to recognize i heard crab all my life (cannot use the correct word to crab)...this way...i suggest crab, i constructed crab, i made crab and i sold crab.....i may be a crab too.
Not to be a crabm, i have to dennie...to resist...to oppose...to shut their mouthes...i will say that output filter is crab...i will say that have intermodulation intersinc sensational counter galactid modulation defects!
If i do not do that!.... i will be recognize to wide world that i am a crab...i may enter depression...so....cannot do this way.
Self defense mechanism will find defects even in the blue colour os the sky, if you pass all life seeing colors wrong, and realise the correct color is the one you see as green.....so...green is blue to you....and this is disgusting."
Well, i do not speak english, you can see because of my errors when typing things...not a native English language.... i am doing strong efforts to say to you what i think, and i fell happy when people say that could understood me, when agree and when disagree...the second, saying why!
regards,
Carlos |
|
|
| speaker |
| quote: | [i]
I don't know where the rumour comes from that class-d per se was bad. [/B] |
Most likely from manufacturers of Class-A & AB amplifiers.
:smash:
speaker |
|
|
| MikeB |
| quote: | Originally posted by phase_accurate
Yes, indeed another advantage of many class-d topologies (that I almost forgot about :o ) is the fact that one can define the open-loop BW almost freely.
Regards
Charles |
From my understanding, you can say that ClassD has openloopbandwidth
flat up to it's carrierfrequency. Also you can say that a ClassD has
a max openloop - delay/phaseshift of 0.5uS (For 200khz carrier),
abolutely fixed. ClassD is not handicapped by feedbackcaps needed
for stabilizing.
This is nearly impossible for ClassAB, but i will try...
My fastest stable circuit reached down to 5us openloop.
It think that this is the reason why ClassD shows so dramatic
transientresponse, dynamics / details / soundstage.
In my own ClassD first steps, it's the deadtime that shows up
as the biggest problems with this technique.
Mike |
|
|
| phase_accurate |
| quote: | | From my understanding, you can say that ClassD has openloopbandwidth flat to ...... |
IF you want to use NFB then you will for sure have to make a trade-off. You can't get flat open-loop FR up to the carrier frequency AND apply NFB at once. So you may most probably use a topology with a flat open loop gain up to 10 or 20 kHz (which alone beats many class-AB amps !!!). The loop itself is much easier to calculate than with an ordinary class AB. And if you still want more NFB then you can use a multiloop topology.
I remember how we listened to a classs-d amp we once developed (in 1991) that had THD as high as 0.44 % but an open-loop BW of 15 kHz and it did not sound harsh in any way - the contrary was true in fact . And this amp was not even intended as audio amp at all but as a lab power source.
Regards
Charles |
|
|
| MikeB |
Okay, i was speaking about selfoscillating topology, already having
NFB inside, with full openloop-FR. The nice thing with selfoscillating is,
as it is intended to oscillate, no stabilizing in any form is necessary...
Mike |
|
|
| maxlorenz |
IMHO, one of the beauties of UCD amps (I've not heard other classD amps) is that, being able to drive and make sound very good even non HiEnd speakers, and making good partnership with transformer based volume controls, one really can focus (money an effort) on the source!
Enjoy your music now...
Mauricio |
|
|
| R Dijk |
I see no reason to amplify "everything"
___:smash:_
 |
|
|
| destroyer X |
Thank's man!
I am hearing, rigth now...Scotish pipe music with drums....yeah!...very good when amplified with class D
regards,
Carlos |
|
|
| jmateus |
Scotish bag pipes are wonderful, they make music right to be
amplified by Class D, class T amplifiers, like the modules of 41Hz.com.
Is this a pretext to speak about these modules? I have to resist to
the impulse of speaking about these modules, they look gorgeous,
I'm about to finish one but I didn't as of yet.
May be later...
But Carlos, how about a military march from Germany? |
|
|
| destroyer X |
This subject..... i do not know his reason, but must exist a good reason to avoid.... some cloudy days to Germany i suppose.
But i visited Heindrich Grune in Petropolis, they buried a lot of old Nazi enormous phonograph discs.... i was there to recover that historic material..... and i made recordings.... and have a lot of conversations on it.....i do not understand 90 percent of the words.
Those voices, hard to understand, because of old recording quality, despite re-adjusted, are noise and unclear, but in my class D, the reproduction is more clear....the unit that can let me understand some words.
Where's the pictures?..... what about the popping, jumping SMDs?
You can put some rubber point when fixing it to solder, to avoid send them to "space"....hehe...they like to fly away, and no one can find them in our "damned trashed dirty laboratories!"
Carlos |
|
|
| dmason |
Question
Can any of the current or future UcD chips allow for battery power? |
|
|
| IVX |
| If you'll see the power comparator for around 9V operation, hence UcD will, because the UcD=comparator+feedback network(fully passive components). |
|
|
|
|
