| 47 Labs OTA, a cheap alternative? - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| homer09 |
I hear the OTA cables designed by 47 labs are somehow the better choice for interconnects and even speaker cables, especially for gainclones (hence why this thread is in this forum)
From the official site, and some digging on the web and this forum, ive only found the following specs about the cable:
- 0.4 mm thick (26 AWG)
- solid conductor
- OFC copper
- jacket material???
oh and its ridiculous price tag of course :bigeyes:
I would like to know if anyone has found a reasonably priced alternative cable that is basically the same thing as the OTA.
Is construction really just a double length of the wire side by side? is there any way to join them for neatness, since i hear you shouldnt twist them.
Anyone have pictures of interconnects (i have no idea how to terminate with rca)? |
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| homer09 |
Is cat5e cable a good aproximation? I would take one pair of conductors and use that for one speaker wire. (ex. belden 1585A).
Would i have to separate the two leads? still unclear how to run these from my amp or how to use them as interconnects... |
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| Stabist |
| Not quite sure what makes you problems - but for IC - if you take 2 wires - one is signal and one is gnd - so 1 wire is for signal and other for gnd - simple as that ... |
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| homer09 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stabist
Not quite sure what makes you problems - but for IC - if you take 2 wires - one is signal and one is gnd - so 1 wire is for signal and other for gnd - simple as that ... |
Ok maybe i made my self sound a lil more dumb than i am. I know where the connections go, just was wondering how people are constructing them. The RCA's i have are designed to accept thicker wire, the hot being soldered to the middle prong, and the cold is the shield which is crimped down on by a screw. SO with such thin wire, do i need a dif type of RCA?
Also shouldnt IC's be shielded? |
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| Asen |
| I had bad results with CAT5. It's a waste of time but try it for yourself. Anyway it's cheap enough and it won't hurt. |
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| homer09 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Asen
I had bad results with CAT5. It's a waste of time but try it for yourself. Anyway it's cheap enough and it won't hurt. |
What did you use them as, speaker cable or IC? What do you recommend instead? |
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| Stabist |
| quote: | Originally posted by homer09
Ok maybe i made my self sound a lil more dumb than i am. I know where the connections go, just was wondering how people are constructing them. The RCA's i have are designed to accept thicker wire, the hot being soldered to the middle prong, and the cold is the shield which is crimped down on by a screw. SO with such thin wire, do i need a dif type of RCA?
Also shouldnt IC's be shielded? |
It's not neccesary to have shield - just look at Kimber cables, etc ...
All my cables are diy - and except in one case I never used a shield - I just soldered gnd cable somewhere on the connector ... And I use standard RCAs ... But you're right - most of the RCAs are "stupid" - Eichman RCAs are a good example of what a call smart engineering!!
Another interesting aproach is the way Naim does ... |
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| etexte |
| quote: | Originally posted by Asen
I had bad results with CAT5. It's a waste of time but try it for yourself. Anyway it's cheap enough and it won't hurt. |
I use it, so do others, with very good results.
I'd say people reading your statement waste their time since you generalize on this when it's not the case. Say you wasted your time, don't say it's a waste of time. Unless you try it, you never know, not all systems are the same |
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| planet10 |
I use CAT 5 strands with good results. Use the solid core stuff. Plenum grade (teflon insulation) is best but not nearly as obtainable as the cheaper stuff with PVC insulation.
It is best -- but a lot of work -- to untwist the strands and run them some distance from each other. I'm usually lazy and just run a single twisted pair. At some point i'll get industrious enuff to build a multiple pararlell strand cable where the wires are layed flat inside a sandwich of packing tape.
dave |
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| homer09 |
if i like the results, im think i will probably run two conductors around a hose or some other flexbile separator and heat shrink the whole thing.
If i have very unequal distances to my speakers (i need a min of ~12' to reach one and ~3' to reach the other from the amp) should i use unequal cable lengths or make them both long and coil one up? |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by homer09
if i like the results, im think i will probably run two conductors around a hose or some other flexbile separator and heat shrink the whole thing. |
My buddy used aquarium hose for some recent interconnects
| quote: | | If i have very unequal distances to my speakers (i need a min of ~12' to reach one and ~3' to reach the other from the amp) should i use unequal cable lengths or make them both long and coil one up? |
same length ideally (i know it's a pain, but....)
dave |
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| homer09 |
| thanks for the help dave, hopefully i could source what i need around town. |
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| Asen |
etexte,
I know what I am saying because I have made a lot of experiments with different CAT5 cables, trying them both as interconects and loudspeaker cables, and in different systems. I have tried CAT5 with horns and loudspeakers with Seas Excel drivers, which are very sensitive to what's in front of them. I tried to achieve good results but it never worked.
Lets don't forget that the 47 Labs cable costs 8$ per meter and the CAT5 half a dollar for 4 pairs. So speaking about good results, there is one advantage - it is cheap.
If you have bad cables and try CAT5 maybe you may like the result. But I still prefer my vdHul cables. Good luck, anyway.
Si, etexte, nu te supara. Am voie sa spun care e parerea mea. Pa. |
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| Gaucho |
CAT6 really sounds much better then CAT5e. Of all the brands I tried the sound of the Avaya was best.
IMO CAT6 is still waste of time. If you want to fool around with networking cable try to find some of the old 22 gauge 4 conductor IBM spec cable. Each conductor has a foam like insulating jacket and its own foil shielding. It beats the heck out of CAT anything. :smash: |
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| neutron7 |
| where would we be if computer networking had not been invented :) |
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| shusha |
I have used some CAT5 cables (not teflon insulation!) as interconnects. I braided them as 3 separate wires first and then another made one with 4 separate wires.
What is this cable capable for? It surelly opens "closed" sistems. If you have some cheap IC's you might be surprised with the amount of details which will be brought to your ear just by using CAT5 cable. But after a while you will surely notice an amount of sharpness in mids and certainely in highs.
I still have a pair between my VCR and amp. For this purpose I am pretty satisfied with CAT5. As main IC's I am using Audioquests Diamondback and G-snake.
Haven't used them for speaker cable yet, but surelly will try some day. Actually in Croatia where I lives I haven't found CAT5 with teflon insulation and I think that the most good what comes from CAT5 comes from teflon and certainely from solid OFC copper.
Tomislav. |
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| maxw |
| quote: | Originally posted by Gaucho
CIf you want to fool around with networking cable try to find some of the old 22 gauge 4 conductor IBM spec cable. Each conductor has a foam like insulating jacket and its own foil shielding. It beats the heck out of CAT anything. :smash: |
OR just any cat5/6 STP (shielded twiseted pair) has shielding, its still pretty cheap and available almost anywhere.
(Napoleon Dynamite, on Gaucho's avatar, is just too coool :D)
I always wonder, do you ground IC shielding? to signal GND or just the case? |
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| Gaucho |
| quote: | | (Napoleon Dynamite, on Gaucho's avatar, is just too coool ) |
I'm glad someone else thinks so too! Gotta love his mad skills.:D |
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| Gaucho |
| quote: | | OR just any cat5/6 STP (shielded twiseted pair) has shielding, its still pretty cheap and available almost anywhere. |
I don' t think the shieling is critical when used as speaker cable, I don't recall being able to hear the difference when tieing it to ground at the amp. In my previous post I was just describing the construction of the IBM cable so people know it when they see it. I did not mean to imply that the better performance of the IBM calbe was due to its shielding.
BTW the IBM cable makes for a poor IC. Didn't like it as a power cord either. :smash: |
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| homer09 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Gaucho
I don' t think the shieling is critical when used as speaker cable, I don't recall being able to hear the difference when tieing it to ground at the amp. In my previous post I was just describing the construction of the IBM cable so people know it when they see it. I did not mean to imply that the better performance of the IBM calbe was due to its shielding.
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i dont think shielding is critical on speaker wire because current and voltage is high. there would have to be lots of nearby interference for a difference to be noticeable. as long as you dont run your speaker cable along AC wire or near a computer, there shouldnt be a difference. for ICs i believe in shielding since the signal is quite weak and a small interference will be amplified. |
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| Gaucho |
| quote: | | i dont think shielding is critical on speaker wire because current and voltage is high. there would have to be lots of nearby interference for a difference to be noticeable. as long as you dont run your speaker cable along AC wire or near a computer, there shouldnt be a difference. for ICs i believe in shielding since the signal is quite weak and a small interference will be amplified. |
I agree whole heartedly with first sentence; sheilding on speaker cable makes little difference.
I have heard claims that shielded interconnects sound 'boxed in' compared to unshielded. It would be interesting to try to perceive this effect on a balanced interconnect where noise is more or less eliminated as a contributing factor. |
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| Hugh M |
2 cents worth
I'm using the braided cat5 speaker cables found here and when my friend and I built(wove) them they were much better sounding than the Kimber 4tc that we were using at the time.
Amp then was audio alchemist and speakers still are Lascalas.
I also tried the cat5 as ic and was not impressed. I didn't however try the cat wire spireled on a tube former.
Hugh |
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| homer09 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hugh M
2 cents worth
I'm using the braided cat5 speaker cables found here and when my friend and I built(wove) them they were much better sounding than the Kimber 4tc that we were using at the time.
Amp then was audio alchemist and speakers still are Lascalas.
I also tried the cat5 as ic and was not impressed. I didn't however try the cat wire spireled on a tube former.
Hugh |
Did you try those cables on a gainclone? they are very high capacitance... i think most gainclones would oscilate driving them without a zobel.
i was thinking more along the lines of only using one pair inside a cat5. |
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| edjosh23 |
I used cat5 for speaker cable and am not that impressed. The highs seem a little better, but not much. I read something the other day about RCA cables and using 3 cables per rca.
2 cables would be the ground and on of the 2 would just end right before the other side of the RCA. So on one side you would have 3 cables total, the other just 2 cables. I don't understand the reasoning behind this. Has anybody tried this? Anybody know why this might help? I also saw a high end IC site that sold some rcas for about $500 for 1m with the 3 conductor concept. I'll do some searching and try and find these sites. |
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| homer09 |
For you canadians out there, i found a good source for a great cat5 cable.
http://www.takefiveaudio.com/belden_cat5_plenum.htm
they have a cyro treated version of it and it could be sourced by the foot. i guess if there is an ideal cat5 for speaker cable, it would be this. cant wait to try it out.
at 0.69 CAN/foot, thats a pretty great deal for speaker cable, just hope it sounds good. Has anyone tried this cable or something similar in a single pair configuration with a gainclone? |
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| Joe Rasmussen |
| quote: | Originally posted by edjosh23
2 cables would be the ground and on of the 2 would just end right before the other side of the RCA. So on one side you would have 3 cables total, the other just 2 cables. I don't understand the reasoning behind this. Has anybody tried this? |
The three wires MUST then be braided. Been doing it for nearly 20 years. The idea is that it creates a pseudo shield, yet it has no shield, is ultra-low capacitance etc. Right now use it in my system from the turntable/cartridge, low output MC to Phono Stage and I'm getting NO hum. You don't need a shield to get hum rejection. There is some common-mode that suppresses the hum (you don't need balanced to get CMR, but likely you don't get as much). For extra RF rejection, add a 100R resistor at the end of the un-terminated wire and therminate through the resistor.
But for critical application, as in the application just explained, use small diameter than Cat5, i.e. thin single core braided tightly. Try different wires, even silver solid core if that takes your fancy.
Take a look at this is photo of the prototype JLTi Phono Stage and look closely at the wire/interconnects:
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~joer...html#Announcing
Look kinda thin, don't they?
Joe R. |
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| homer09 |
Joe,
For speaker cable, i should leave the cat5 in twisted pair? 47 labs sells their thin speaker cable and warn users not to twist it... i was planning on running it a couple of cms apart to reduce capacitance. |
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| Hugh M |
| quote: | Originally posted by homer09
Did you try those cables on a gainclone? they are very high capacitance... i think most gainclones would oscilate driving them without a zobel.
i was thinking more along the lines of only using one pair inside a cat5. |
As a matter of fact(aamaf?), I finished my first GC yesterday(perf board experimental) and have been playing it today and everything seems fine.
Given that all the parts are junk box and I've one 36v ct xformer and single bridge for both channels it sounds very good.
I did use the zobel network on the output.
I like using stranded wire for internal runs. just a personal prefferance.
Hugh |
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| homer09 |
| Has anyone explored the possibility of using just the core of a coax cable? There must also be coax cables in the AWG 26 range with solid cores and teflon insulation. This may be closer to the OTA cable since i hear it has a thick jacket (about like the inside jacket of a coax). |
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| edjosh23 |
| Are there any sonic difference between listening to 75ohm coaxial vs almost no impedience i.e. cat5? |
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| Hugh M |
For the most part especially for our uses cable impedance at audio frequencies is irrelevant. Try whatever you have around.
I would think that a good quality rg-58 with stranded core should sound ok. The capacitance might muffle the top end a bit tho.
Try stripping the shield and using 2 center pieces as sig and return like homer09 suggests.
Is there a reason why you think the wire should be 26 ga?
For ICs I have tried Co-ax(mah!:o ), braided cat 5(:dead: ), mic cable(should be availlable at local supplier at a good enough price to experiment)(was OK), Ultralink (the blue stuff that RS used to sell off the roll) (decent), Ultralink Platinum premade (Ihave 2 pairs and they are quite good), and generic 1 and 2 pair foil shield, grey jacket(better than the stock rca cables that come with most consumer stuff.
Beldon used to make a single conductor mic/guitar cable that was very flexable with a neoprene center insulation. I have some old ics made from that and it meets or beats any of the cheaper ics I've bought over the years.
Part of the fun is trying these things to see for yourself what the differances, if any, may be.
Buy a bunch of RCA cons and----
Try it!!
Hugh;) |
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| edjosh23 |
I made my first pair of RCAs today :) . The righ channel is the inside of 2 coaxial cables and the left is the 3 conductor cat5 cablewith the "psuedo shield" (braided). I'm using RadioShack connections because I haven't had time to price hunt and order a nice set of RCAs.
Comparing the two is a little difficult, after listening to the first cd you can tell that the coaxial internal RCAs are more detailed, Imaging wize, I can't really tell a difference. At first I thought that the coaxial had a little less bass, but that was just the song and position of the bass guitar. The trebble seems to be better in the coaxial, but I must say the cat5 is quite good. The coaxial and the cat5 are pretty close on the bass, and I think if anything the cat5 has more predominant bass. The cat5 is the silver coated copper. I also have the copper cat5 and it might have been a better comparison, but I didn't think of that. These are just first impressions really so nothing is definate, but after more listening I can give you more info. Also the coaxial was what I had laying around the house, as was the cat5.
My listening position is not perfectly in the center. I'm using my wr125s for speakers. I'm sure the connections are taking the SQ down a little bit. Compared to the Monster cable RCAs, I'd say I prefer my new ones. If I change out some wiring I'll hook up my pair of B&W 602 S3s and I might be able to make a better comparison.
edit: my version of bass in these speakers is pretty high, they don't go down very low.
Thanks,
Josh |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by edjosh23
I'm using RadioShack connections because I haven't had time to price hunt and order a nice set of RCAs. |
The cheapest ones with the plastic covers will actually embarass some much more expensive ones.
dave |
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| Gaucho |
| quote: | | The cheapest ones with the plastic covers will actually embarass some much more expensive ones. |
That's good to know, because RS's mid priced gold plated RCA cons are pretty terrible and the more expensive Monster look-a-likes are even worse. From now on I will use the the cheapies for experimenting! :cool: |
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| edjosh23 |
I have a friend that works at radioshack and he gave them to me , they are the cheapest ones, definately not gold plated.
I'm sure with better connectors and a better coaxial the RCAs can sound much better.
Josh |
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| Hugh M |
Hi Guys
I just finished my VSPS(hard wired on perf board) and my first connections were some old twisted pair shielded grey cable I had laying around. I have since made ICs from a piece of cat 6 my friend gave me. They are done like Kimbers as I saw in one of Carlosfms posts. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...6928&highlight=
Much better than what I had. Good detail. Have to listen for a while tho. Seems a little weak on the bottom end but more accurate?
Going to listen for a while. definitly worth doing to compare.
When I did cat 5 ICs before I used the twisted pairs in braided form and I think they had way to much capacitance and acted as high filter.
:)
Hugh |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hugh M
Much better than what I had. Good detail. Have to listen for a while tho. Seems a little weak on the bottom end but more accurate? |
Hugh, how were you using cat5 before?
Using the complete cable for an interconnect (selecting the whites for ground) results in complete disaster...
That's because the crossing is different on each pair, AND the cable has high capacitance.
The resulting sound is a prominent bass, wich is also delaied from the rest of the spectum.:bawling:
Strip them and make'em "a la Kimber", with 4 wires (two wires for ground): very good results.:cool: |
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| homer09 |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
Strip them and make'em "a la Kimber", with 4 wires (two wires for ground): very good results.:cool: |
carlos, any more details on this "a la Kimber"? (braiding, shielding, crossconnecting?) |
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| Hugh M |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
Hugh, how were you using cat5 before?
Using the complete cable for an interconnect (selecting the whites for ground) results in complete disaster...
That's because the crossing is different on each pair, AND the cable has high capacitance.
The resulting sound is a prominent bass, wich is also delaied from the rest of the spectum.
Strip them and make'em "a la Kimber", with 4 wires (two wires for ground): very good results.:cool: |
Thats exactly what I did this time Carlos. When I tried it four or five years ago I had braided 3 twisted pairs together and it sounded exactly like you said.
Thanks for the idea.
While I'm on the subject, I'd like to thank you and every one else on the forum for the inspiration and information to get me going on building a better sounding system.
I have tried out my VSPS and find it quite pleasing but look forward to getting better caps for it. And I have plans to build a pre-amp based on your 627/134 combo. Also I would like to bi-amp my Lascala's with IBGC with the active crossover in the buffer of each amp.
By the way Carlos, very nice work on the preamp boards. I like to build on perf board too.
Thank You
Hugh |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by homer09
carlos, any more details on this "a la Kimber"? (braiding, shielding, crossconnecting?) |
Strip the cat5 cable, uncross 2 pairs (4 wires), put them all straight.
Solder on the first RCA plug cross a few centimeters, put some shrinking tube, cramp the cable to the plug.
Hold the plug to something or ask for help:D.
With the RCA plug well secured, holding one pair in each hand, cross them tight.
Solder the other plug, some shrinking tube, hold it, done.:cool:
Let the cable :hot:-in for some days, it doesn't sound so good at first.
This is not a shielded cable, but for most line-level applications it's fine and it sounds very good indeed. |
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| lohk |
Well, why stripping and unbraiding CAT5 cable just to get some lenghth of thin solid core cable? I cannot get that.
Is it not better just to buy properly solid core cable (maybe silver plated and ptfd insulated) and twist it?
All the cheap CAT5 cables I tried did not sound very good - not matter how I used them. Even a simple pair of twisted wires sounded better.
Klaus |
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| Hugh M |
Well Klaus, it's fun to experiment, and this ic sounds pretty good made like the kimber, and it was free. I made my speaker cables from the stuff and really like the sound. I definatly woudn't spend enough on cables to get somthing that sounded better. Cost me some time but that is part of the hobby.
So You know. What the heck. :)
Hugh |
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| lohk |
Hugh,
you are right, of course. But in the same way I discovered - by trying several different wires etc. - that there are a lot more ways to get "new cables". |
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| homer09 |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
Strip the cat5 cable, uncross 2 pairs (4 wires), put them all straight.
Solder on the first RCA plug cross a few centimeters, put some shrinking tube, cramp the cable to the plug.
Hold the plug to something or ask for help:D.
With the RCA plug well secured, holding one pair in each hand, cross them tight.
Solder the other plug, some shrinking tube, hold it, done.:cool:
Let the cable :hot:-in for some days, it doesn't sound so good at first.
This is not a shielded cable, but for most line-level applications it's fine and it sounds very good indeed. |
Thanks carlos, i will put this on the list for a future project. Just one thing i'm unclear on:
4 conductors, 2 for signal and 2 for ground right?
My question is, when you say "holding one pair in each hand, cross them tight" what do you mean by pair? is it a pair of hot and a pair of cold, or a pair is one cold and one hot?
if you also have a link to a website with pics, would be greatly appreciated. |
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| analog_sa |
| quote: | | All the cheap CAT5 cables I tried did not sound very good - not matter how I used them. Even a simple pair of twisted wires sounded better |
Cannot agree more. Never tried any complex geometries as the basic sound character put me off too much. As my CAT5 was not even teflon insulated i tried cotton insulation in place of the PVC - better but just not good enough. |
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| edjosh23 |
Using my Denon amp I usually listen using a digital coaxial. Would the RCA that I made with the coaxial cores be useful for a digital coaxial? Would it be 75ohm?
Thanks,
Josh |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by homer09
4 conductors, 2 for signal and 2 for ground right? |
Right.
| quote: | Originally posted by homer09
what do you mean by pair? is it a pair of hot and a pair of cold |
Yes, that's it.
Hold the two ground wires on one hand and the two signal wires on the other hand and cross them tight.
It's not exactly "a la Kimber" like you saw on that pic, but the results are good and the cable looks better. The wires are too thin to be used "a la Kimber".
Beware, this is a good sounding cable, although of course there is better and you can diy better (at a price).
But as it is, even with the PVC insulation and made this way, it beats most 150~200 Euros commercial interconnect cables.
So now you see how most audiophiles are assaulted.:hot: |
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| Hugh M |
| quote: | Originally posted by lohk
Hugh,
you are right, of course. But in the same way I discovered - by trying several different wires etc. - that there are a lot more ways to get "new cables". |
Hey Klaus
One of the nicer cables I accuired(read free) was a length of Beldon 9778 which i think is no longer available. It is coaxial mic cable with a neoprene center insulation. My friend and I compared it with Ultralink Discovery and it was a little beter than that. This from memory of course. I have 2 sets of UltraLink Ultima ic's( they were a gift) and they are a nice sounding cable but retail for 150 cdn. I have compared them to the Kimber Silver Streak and I prefered the Ultima. Thats just personal taste tho. Rat Shack used to sell the Discovery cable for 99c /ft and I still have a couple of 6 or 8 ft lengths around around. I use it for the HT setup. I think also at some time I tried RG 58 stranded core but didn't like it much and used the rca's for something else. Might try two centre conductors sometime.
If you've got any ideas you'd like to share I'd be interested.
Hugh |
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| edjosh23 |
I put the core coaxial RCA in as my digital coaxial and it works great. Much better than my monster video cable although it is a $35 RCA. The highs are much much much better, I feel like I've been missing some music until I put this RCA in. I wanted to thank you all for telling me to try making an RCA because this free project turned out much better than expected. I also wanted to mention when used as a digital coaxial the bass seems to kick in much more :D
Thanks,
Josh |
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| tom1356 |
You could always make your own. The wood ones I make use 32 awg silver wire and sound amazing. The picture also shows a teflon panel mount jack. I now make them out of wood and the two conectors together are indistinguishable from a hard soldered connection with the convience of being able to take the components apart.
good luck! |
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| PauSim |
| quote: | Originally posted by homer09
Has anyone explored the possibility of using just the core of a coax cable? There must also be coax cables in the AWG 26 range with solid cores and teflon insulation. This may be closer to the OTA cable since i hear it has a thick jacket (about like the inside jacket of a coax). |
YES
I was reading the 6moons review when I realized the OTA kit looked like stripped cores of coax. I always thought it was just bare wire that would have to be carefully pulled inside a plastic jacket, from some other reviewer´s words, but finally the 6moons pictures showed what it´s all about IMHO. After that, searching through diyAudio I came across your post and looks like you were there first so kudos to you :drink:
I bought 10 meters of RG59 for € 4 (that´s right: 4 euros total) at a local supplier and made myself a pair of interconnect and speaker cables in about two hours.
Here are they in action: |
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| homer09 |
| and how do they sound? |
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| karma |
| nice have a closer pic? |
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| PauSim |
| quote: | Originally posted by homer09
and how do they sound? |
They sound just like a straight wire that connects A to B ;)
Well, I like the ICs so much I´m gonna ebay a lot of other DIY cables LOL.
Both (spkr & IC) sound more or less the same.
I think the first thing one notices is the total lack of colouration except for bass response on the spkr cables. They do not lose in any of the frequency extremes, but the speaker cables sound a litlle shy in the bass, in terms of amplitude. This is certainly due to the 26awg, and I believe the OTA sounds the same. Doubling and even quadrupling the runs will help, but that will mean serious mess of cables around...
One thing about these ICs compared to single untwisted runs of Cat5 is that not only they do not sound as brighty or lean, sometimes certain instruments sound shall we say "palpable".The thicker insulation must be playing some role here, protecting the thin wire from outside vibration (i.e. sound waves). Either that or I´m nuts.
Details are all there too, down to spitting lips and breaths. On the Norah Jones CD you see in the picture, in the opening bars of Sunrise we can hear her taking a deep breath before she starts to sing. This must have passed unnoticed to the mixing engineer´s ears :) I´m not saying other cables won´t let you hear it, but with these ICs I noticed clearly for the first time.
A funny thing I missed was some euphonic signature other types of cables may have, even simple twisted pairs. There´s nothing you can say such as " ahh, just listen to that balance. Oh, and those crystaline highs" or whatever. If one wants to turn on the system just to listen to this new creation one may as well get bored and go find another DIY recipe in search of the musical Nirvana when at least these cables what they´re doing is getting you closer to the music as it was recorded.
:drink: |
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| homer09 |
thanks for your observations. i wanted to try out my idea of using just the inside of a coax cable, but i had a hard time confirming if the insulation is teflon or not.
is the white insulation found in generic coax teflon? or did u find a special coax cable? |
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| PauSim |
| Homer, this is just ordinary RG59. My guess the insulation is polythilene, as it melts pretty quickly. Except for dampening properties, I´m not sure if Teflon would sound better as the wires are meant to be widely spread apart and so, capacitance is not an issue. If some Belden 1695a is used, any improvement in sonics must be due to better wire quality, if there´s any. |
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| PauSim |
As you can see I used some cheap plugs, for one of the OTA cable claims is the less metal in the connections the better. I applied some heatshrink for strainrelief and to protect the joints as I couldn´t find the plastic barrels :xeye:
If I knew the ICs sounded this good I would have discarded the Bullet Plugs from my previous "reference" silver / cotton ICs. Now they´re off to Ebay.
Tomorrow I´ll get some rubber O-rings to make the proper termination. |
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| homer09 |
i already have a spool of belden's best teflon cat5 cable, cyro treated.
i guess i will use this, although your aproach, paulo, seems better... |
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| PauSim |
| That´s 1585a isn´t it? Are you going to use it for interconnection? |
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| PauSim |
| Here´s a better pic of the speaker cables: easy fit in the binding posts. |
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| pjpoes |
I am curious to know how these interconnects reject noise such as EMI and RFI, or if they dont. If they are supposed to be evenly spaced, how do they do that, just placement? Interconnects made in the Mapleshade way are kept spaced apart by the film they are suspended in. The Long run speaker wires he offers are to be manually spaced apart over the ling run, and he uses a double helix, so he says, for those speaker wires.
I have designed one interconnect, not using wire like this, I will have to try some as it sounds cheap, using FIM's new cable, in 20 guage. I spaced them apart using wooden blocks of equal size. This I figure should keep them a somewhat equal length apart. Problem I have is that they are now kinda heavy, the blocks are not big, but with this many, they got kinda heavy. Second problem is that I dont think they sound all that good thus far. They may need some run in, I litterally finished them last night at midnight, so we shall see. I may switch to something like Balsa wood for the seperators. |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by PauSim
Homer, this is just ordinary RG59. My guess the insulation is polythilene, as it melts pretty quickly. Except for dampening properties, I´m not sure if Teflon would sound better as the wires are meant to be widely spread apart and so, capacitance is not an issue. If some Belden 1695a is used, any improvement in sonics must be due to better wire quality, if there´s any. |
50 ohm 10Base-T coax network cable (RG58, if I remember) may be a better choice.
The insulation is very strong and holds some heat, because you could crimp or solder a BNC plug.
On some cables it may be teflon. |
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| PauSim |
Thanks for your reply| quote: | Originally posted by pjpoes
I am curious to know how these interconnects reject noise such as EMI and RFI, or if they dont. |
They don´t.
| quote: | | If they are supposed to be evenly spaced, how do they do that, just placement? Interconnects made in the Mapleshade way are kept spaced apart by the film they are suspended in. The Long run speaker wires he offers are to be manually spaced apart over the ling run, and he uses a double helix, so he says, for those speaker wires. |
Yes, it´s just placement. Capacitance is so negligible I just plug the cables and leave them as they are without worrying. The Mapleshade method allows the conductors to be evenly spaced apart, which will provide some consistency, but at those distances, with so much air in the midlle,I wouldn´t worry much. Their double helix are a different type of cables. It´s four twisted conductors arranjed in star-quad and so it should sound good.
| quote: | | I have designed one interconnect, not using wire like this, I will have to try some as it sounds cheap, using FIM's new cable, in 20 guage. I spaced them apart using wooden blocks of equal size. This I figure should keep them a somewhat equal length apart. Problem I have is that they are now kinda heavy, the blocks are not big, but with this many, they got kinda heavy. Second problem is that I dont think they sound all that good thus far. They may need some run in, I litterally finished them last night at midnight, so we shall see. I may switch to something like Balsa wood for the seperators. |
This wire may be cheap but sounds like a million dollars and I bet the 47 Labs OTA real price must not be that far. Anyway, any RG59 costs very litlle unless it´s made of special materials like Teflon insulators, which I don´t think are essential to the OTA design. What counts here is the single strand inside a thick jacket.
Isn´t 20 gauge too much for a single IC conductor? That may be the reason why they don´t sound all that good. I would try a smaller gauge, from 24 upwards, before replacing the wood... |
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| PauSim |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
50 ohm 10Base-T coax network cable (RG58, if I remember) may be a better choice.
The insulation is very strong and holds some heat, because you could crimp or solder a BNC plug.
On some cables it may be teflon. |
Yes, the 50 Ohm coax is the RG58. I chose the 75 Ohm RG59 because it´s what I know after making some digital cables for my DAC. RG59 is also meant for BNC plugs, either crimped or soldered, but the 50 Ohm coax may have a thicker insulation... |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by PauSim
RG59 is also meant for BNC plugs, either crimped or soldered, but the 50 Ohm coax may have a thicker insulation... |
No, the insulation is thinner.
The central wire is thicker. |
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| pjpoes |
Thanks for the comments on my own experience. The 20guage I used because it is the smallest of this new FIM wire, and what they seem to feel is good for an IC connection. It looks like very high quality wire, and I have been wanting to use some monocrystal wire, but was unable to find any hookup wire like that at a reasonable price, other than Vampire, which I am yet to try.
What is it about the thick unsulation that you think makes this a good IC and Speaker wire. The dampening? If so, would further dampening, such as from a block of graphite, carbfiber, or wood be beneficial? That was sorta my idea with the wood blocks, I made the holes smooth and tight fitting, so they might dampen the wire, if it could make a difference. OH, and before I get any comments about how there is no way that a conductive cuircit or wire or whatever could possibly be affected by vibrations, Phonostages, which commonly amplify a signal 100's of times its unput level are natorious for being suseptable to vibrations being heard through the board. I have one that when tapped can be heard through its ouput, and can be even shown on an oscilliscope. Though I have not yet tried the same test with wire, I would not be suprised that, if carrying a low level signal, they too could be affected by a vibration, if only slightly. |
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| Hugh M |
PauSim
Have you thought of trying a pair of ics made from the centers of RG 58 stranded core. I would be curios to see if you hear much differance.
I'd try it myself but we moved awhile ago and I haven't got the work shop set up yet as I'm still doing some reno's and such.
Good to see people experimenting. The system here sounds real good in the new basement.:D
Regards
Hugh |
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| PauSim |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
No, the insulation is thinner.
The central wire is thicker. |
Oops, now I know. Looks like the 75 Ohm is the better choice for interconnects and the 50 Ohm for speaker cables... |
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| PauSim |
| quote: | Originally posted by pjpoes
[B]
What is it about the thick unsulation that you think makes this a good IC and Speaker wire. The dampening? |
Yes, I think good dampening is the reason why such a thick insulation was chosen by Kimura-san.
But judging from the wires inside the Gaincard, also maybe because he liked the colour :D
What you describe exists and is known as microphony.
Cheers |
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| PauSim |
Hugh,
The OTA clones are still under "listening tests" (how pompous these words sound).
AFAIK one of the primary aspects of Junji´s design was that with such a minimal geommetry, the wires should be single-stranded and thin enough to avoid negative skin-effects. At the shop I was offered some multi-stranded RG59 that I quickly ditched in favour of single-stranded. Not to say that multi-strands sound terrible, I got a few DIY here that sound very good...
Congrats on your new listening room.
My ladyfriend was here for the vacations and she convinced me to move all the furniture. Now the living room sounds like a chapel... |
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| homer09 |
| quote: | Originally posted by PauSim
That´s 1585a isn´t it? Are you going to use it for interconnection? |
yes thats the one i have (link ) i initally bought it to make speaker wire (a single twisted pair per channel) but will consider making ICs with it also. |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by PauSim
My ladyfriend was here for the vacations and she convinced me to move all the furniture. Now the living room sounds like a chapel... |
:D |
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| Bgt |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
Right.
Yes, that's it.
Hold the two ground wires on one hand and the two signal wires on the other hand and cross them tight.
It's not exactly "a la Kimber" like you saw on that pic, but the results are good and the cable looks better. The wires are too thin to be used "a la Kimber".
Beware, this is a good sounding cable, although of course there is better and you can diy better (at a price).
But as it is, even with the PVC insulation and made this way, it beats most 150~200 Euros commercial interconnect cables.
So now you see how most audiophiles are assaulted.:hot: |
An UTP kabel has 4 pairs of wires so you use 2 pairs for ground and the other 2 for the hot line. I have no id how a kimber cable looks like? Any pic? The UTP is not shielded, it is very transparant for EMI then? |
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| pjpoes |
I have made "a la Kimber" cables with 28 guage wire before, its just a lose braid really, I dont thickness has anything to do with what makes the kimber or IXOS cables design, other than they tend to use fairly thick wire.
This design I would suspect would be very suseptable to EMI and RFI interference compared with some sort of sheilded design. The Idea behind a tristed pair or Braid is that the conductors will cross each other and that crossing allows them to cancel out interference. I dont know that the design was ever as effective as an actual shield, but people tend to feel it sounds more transparent. If I have gotten any of the facts here mixed up, I appolagize, I am a psychologist not an engineer, this is just what I believe I have read before. |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by pjpoes
This design I would suspect would be very suseptable to EMI and RFI interference compared with some sort of sheilded design. |
It provides some small rejection, but nothing to compare with a shielded cable.
Even so, for line-level applications most of the times that's not a problem.
I just can't use these cables between my turntable and the phono pre. As expected.
But for every other sources, and for 'normal' lengths (0.5~1m) it's fine.
Btw, DNM Reson is solid core, not shielded, flat parallel cable.
It's even worse at rejecting noise, but it's a good cable.
As long as you don't live next to a radar. :D |
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| PauSim |
Well, the OTA clone as speaker cable has been superseeded by another extremely cheap design: the HD10! A certain reviewer from TAS raved about some orange 14 awg power cable from Home Depot that "killed" a number of expensive high-enders in a group test and subsequently made some "noise" in the magazine´s reader´s section, the CableAsylum and AudiogoN. Some say wonders about the cable, some say it´s pure joke.
So, while searching for some rubber O-rings at a hardware store I saw some orange power cable sold by the meter (for about € 1). It was 1,5 mm2 diameter, which corresponds roughly to 14 awg. However, I wasn´t sure about it and the 2,5 mm2 white version ( at € 1,99 per meter) seemed a better choice. When I got home I discovered I chose the HD10! And what a fine-sounding speaker cable it turned out to be.
So, what´s it all about? It consists of three multi-stranded copper conductors, in PVC insulation, barely twisted inside a PVC jacket. Yes, no OFC AFAIK, no Teflon, no cotton filler and no shielding. You can´t get more cheaper than this and nevertheless it´s amazingly good for audio. Just try it!
The TAS team used only one conductor per pole, and left say the earth wire, and it looks like this third floating wire is the cause for such a great sound.
I believe the reviewers didn´t have a clue about it. They just went to the nearest hardware store and took a good sized "lampcord" to make a supposedly unfair comparision that allowed the boutique cables to show-off and justify the high-price, in "see? I told you so" kind of manner...
Now, when the third wire is left unconnected it is in fact separating the other two, making for a very low capacitance. More or less like what Ixos do with their Gamma Geommetry design only this time instead of pure dielectric we have insulated metal...
Jon Risch says this creates an artificial ambience to the sound thus it is not transmitting a true signal from the amp and if we ground the third wire we should be hearing the nefast effects of PVC insulation (which I know sounds :dead: ).
So, I tried all possible connections: earth wire to the amp side or to the speaker side either to ground or to signal makes it sound brighter. Connecting to both sides (a la Kimber PBJ) either the ground or the signal binding posts sounded fine, but no thanks...
So I left it unconnected. Sounds better balanced.
The result: 222 pF capacitance for two meters! This is average 1m interconnect territory.
You may be thinking I´m reinventing the wheel, rediscovering the fact that what counts in speaker cable is gauge and nothing but gauge, but let me tell you this one sounds much better than plain shot-gun cable. Since it costs next to nothing I urge you to try it. Ten minutes of work and a wire cutter is all you need.
That is, if you´re not like me. I like my cables to look good and took more time to finish them as you´ll see...
;) |
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| PauSim |
| So, this is the wire... |
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| PauSim |
| ... that now looks much better, don´t you think? :D |
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| PauSim |
| For measuring capacitance I always suspend the cables above the floor. Otherwise capacitance increases. This may be the cable elevators raison-d´etre... |
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| PauSim |
| So here it is: 222 pF for 2 meters of PVC twisted 10 awg loudspeaker cable. |
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| PauSim |
I have to state that when this cable was measured on the floor the capacitance rised only a dozen picofarads.
It seems inconsequent to performance, at "loudspeaker level", if the values remain constant. However, it´s while the music is playing that the capacitance needs to be measured. I don´t know how to do it this way, but one thing is for sure: if a rythmic pressure is done to the cable, capacitance arises and decreases accordingly as the PVC jacket is very soft and the wires are pressed against each other. Given that the ever-changing values in capacitance interfere with high frequencies, if we could isolate the cable from the pressure of sound waves we would achieve a much steadier image, I think.
Even if the variations occur at higher than 20 KHz I know from my experiences with analogue synthesizers that certain sine-waves ( single harmonics) interactions at any range produce results a few octaves down.
So, all this to conclude that the cable could be bettered if it went through another jacket before the fancy Techflex. A split wire loom, which is robust and flexible at the same time springed to mind. I tried a Legrand polypropilene here that would be perfect if it hadn´t a bigger internal diameter.
Hoping I´m not hijacking this thread as this is still a cheap alternative to the OTA cable... |
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| PauSim |
Here´s the on-line version of the cable survey where you´ll find the HD-14.
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/new...le_survey2.html
Home Depot HD-14G
est. $30 per 50-foot pair with terminations
Okay, the model designation is my own invention, standing for H (Home) D (Depot) 14G(auge) outdoor extension cord. Otherwise, this entry is no joke. Like several other cables, it comes in a decorative jacket, here of striking orange and black, evocative of Halloween; unlike the others, you must snip off its AC connectors and attach terminations of choice (I used Pomona bananas). The HD-14G rendered Murray Perahia’s piano in a big bold manner, lacking just a little in finesse and ultimate transparency. It threw an image on Jacintha’s “Something’s Gotta Give” with the best—one note reads, “some of the best depth of any cable”—with tuneful bass, notably good height, and a quite lifelike projection. On the Rachmaninoff, it didn’t sound as “fast,” transparent, controlled, or defined in the bass as the better cables, but it wasn’t far behind them either, and it was always highly listenable and involving, with a big-boned, robust presentation that flattered the Appalachian Spring sonics. As for detail, well, it allowed me to hear every piano chord that bleeds through Jacintha’s headphones at the beginning of “Danny Boy” (Autumn Leaves); more detail than that you don’t need.
I’ll leave the last observation to the most technically knowledgeable, musically literate, and experienced of my listening group: “You know what’s really good about this cable? It sounds totally unscrewed around with.” If its half-inch thickness isn’t macho enough, Home Depot also sells a 12-gauge for half again that sum, and a 10-gauge for about twice the price, both in less attractive yellow-and-black jackets. If you still think I’m kidding, know that Tony Faulkner—engineer of about a third of the best-sounding orchestral recordings of the last twenty years—used the Black-and-Decker equivalent to hook up his Quad 989s at the recent Heathrow Show in England—“They are made from good, thick copper wire, look nice and sound good to me”—and that the designer of what is by provable standards one of the half dozen or so most accurate loudspeakers ever made uses and recommends it all the time.
(Taken from link above) |
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