| blu_line |
Gents (ladies)
Hereby the announcement of the second Dutch DIY event.
Please see
http://home.versatel.nl/ddiy_2005/
for more details.
Site is in dutch language , sorry :D
grtz
Simon |
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| LaMa |
| I'll check it out :) |
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| blu_line |
kick-up.
grtz
Simon |
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| blu_line |
kick up again !
grtz
Simon |
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| janneman |
Count me in!
Jan Didden |
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| blu_line |
and to the top again :D
grtz
Simon |
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| saffier |
| Shall I take this one to the Dutch DIY meeting? |
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| blu_line |
you are most welcome ! :D
grtz
Simon |
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| Bas Horneman |
| I'll be there...yeah yeah....I'll be theeeheeere...just call my naaaiiijjiaaaame..and IIiiiii'll be there. |
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| blu_line |
The ddiy audio 2005 page has been updated.
There is an announcement on www.hear.nl and circuitsonline.net.
And most probably in the dutch version of elektor and Homestudio !
grtz
Simon |
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| blu_line |
still 7 weeks to register !
grtz
Simon |
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| blu_line |
Still about 5 weeks to register !
I updated the site.
My apologies for those who send mails and do not get replies.
It has been a mad house for all kind of reasons.
grtz
Simon |
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| EDUM |
| And... Do not forget to bring your "verlengsnoeren". :) |
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| Bas Horneman |
| and "stekkerdozen" |
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| blu_line |
still 3 weeks to register !
"Elektuur" has been so kind to sponsor us with nice goodies !
And there are several sponsors sohowing their products.
See website.
grtz
Simon |
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| blu_line |
I think this is the most suitable time to kick the thread up again.
3 weeks to go !
grtz
Simon |
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| blu_line |
just a reminder ...............
grtz
Simon |
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| SSassen |
I'm still doubting whether I should, as I've been to a few audio meetings before. In my case there's always the risk of getting into a few discussions with audiophiles that have no engineering background. That's not only prone to give me a headache from having to explain over and over again the simple basics of cables, capacitors, tube and transistor amplifiers etc. but will likely not make me any new 'audiofriends' if I debunk their latest purchases. So I'm undecided still...
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com |
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| Leeuwarden |
| Just sign up and if you decide not to go you have at least a good feeling about having sponsored the DDDIY 2005 :D |
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| Guido Tent |
| quote: | Originally posted by SSassen
I'm still doubting whether I should, as I've been to a few audio meetings before. In my case there's always the risk of getting into a few discussions with audiophiles that have no engineering background. That's not only prone to give me a headache from having to explain over and over again the simple basics of cables, capacitors, tube and transistor amplifiers etc. but will likely not make me any new 'audiofriends' if I debunk their latest purchases. So I'm undecided still...
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com |
Hi Sander
There will be engineers too
cheers (and see you there ?) |
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| Guido Tent |
Hi
Just checked your article on cable myths: Your assumptions are too limitted.
If you come to DDIY2005 we'll discuss at least 2 more parameters affecting sonical aspects of cables.
cheers |
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| SSassen |
Guido?
In the frequency spectrum speaker and interlink cables are used, which typically is 10Hz...40KHz, the only parameters that are in effect are R, C and L per meter/foot, or whatever unit of length you want to use. All other parameters do not have a measurable effect on the signal distributed through the cable and certainly are not audible. But feel free to PM me with some counter arguments, I'm up for a bit of discussion.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com |
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| Guido Tent |
| quote: | Originally posted by SSassen
Guido?
In the frequency spectrum speaker and interlink cables are used, which typically is 10Hz...40KHz, the only parameters that are in effect are R, C and L per meter/foot, or whatever unit of length you want to use. All other parameters do not have a measurable effect on the signal distributed through the cable and certainly are not audible. But feel free to PM me with some counter arguments, I'm up for a bit of discussion.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com |
I have a colleague who has a note in his office
"assumption is the mother of all ***** ups"
meet you in Zutphen for discussion
cheers |
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| SSassen |
Guido,
The only properties of loudspeaker cables that are important to their performance in the audio frequency range include:
1. Their series resistance (R), dictated by the crosssection of the cable, the purity of the copper used and the length of the cable.
2. Their characteristic impedance (Z), dictated by the series inductance and parallel capacitance per unit length.
3. Their loss resistance (Rl), dictated by skin-effect losses versus frequency, and dielectric losses versus frequency.
4. Their capacitance (C), dictated by the distance between two cable conductors carrying an opposite charge and their respective surface areas and the dielectric constant of the insulation used.
5. Their inductance (L), dictated by the series inductance per unit length.
All of which are neglectable if you use proper speaker cables, and hardly measurable to have an effect, but certainly not audible.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com |
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| blu_line |
| quote: | | I'm still doubting whether I should, as I've been to a few audio meetings before. In my case there's always the risk of getting into a few discussions with audiophiles that have no engineering background. That's not only prone to give me a headache from having to explain over and over again the simple basics of cables, capacitors, tube and transistor amplifiers etc. but will likely not make me any new 'audiofriends' if I debunk their latest purchases. So I'm undecided still... |
I am an digital/dsp engineer my self and studied analog electronics. So i think you're in the midst of engineers like your self.
grtz
Simon |
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| Guido Tent |
| quote: | Originally posted by SSassen
Guido,
The only properties of loudspeaker cables that are important to their performance in the audio frequency range include:
1. Their series resistance (R), dictated by the crosssection of the cable, the purity of the copper used and the length of the cable.
2. Their characteristic impedance (Z), dictated by the series inductance and parallel capacitance per unit length.
3. Their loss resistance (Rl), dictated by skin-effect losses versus frequency, and dielectric losses versus frequency.
4. Their capacitance (C), dictated by the distance between two cable conductors carrying an opposite charge and their respective surface areas and the dielectric constant of the insulation used.
5. Their inductance (L), dictated by the series inductance per unit length.
All of which are neglectable if you use proper speaker cables, and hardly measurable to have an effect, but certainly not audible.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com |
dear Sander,
I am well aware of conductor properties
best regards, |
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| earsandeyes |
As far as I am concerned being an engineer (or having an engineering background) means that you apply knowledge to improve the world we are living in. It is not about exposing what we do know or not know, but how to use the knowledge we have (or there is) to make steps ahead, sometimes quantumleaps.
I will make an effort to be there, to listen, to learn, to improve and it and it is always nice to have a discussion or an argument as long as it is not about being right or wrong.
E&E |
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| Bas Horneman |
| quote: | | As far as I am concerned being an engineer (or having an engineering background) means that you apply knowledge to improve the world we are living in. It is not about exposing what we do know or not know, but how to use the knowledge we have (or there is) to make steps ahead, sometimes quantumleaps. |
Bravo!
I've had too many discussions with engineers were I had to explain that sinus wave in versus exact sinus wave (amplified) out does not mean you have built a good sounding amp. Or tell them that a digital interconnect CAN make a difference. I just get a blank look and I see them thinking..this guy is a moron.
Engineering means to me that these guys can build the same thing I can build economically. For instance...I can build a bridge...a very strong bridge...but I won't know beforehand how much weight the bridge can handle. An engineer should be able to build that bridge cheaper and faster and will know beforehand exactly how much weight it can handle. |
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| SSassen |
Bas,
You're approaching this from the wrong angle, cables and electronics are governed by the laws of physics, how else would we be able to calculate their behavior? Hence there's nothing mythical or magical about them.
You being able to put something together that works, or even works very well is probably due to the fact you're knowledgable about what you do, either by experience, or extensive trail and error. An engineer usually doesn't want to over-engineer something hence he calculates beforehand what will happen so as to not waste any time or budget.
Cable behavior and the electronics used in audio-video products has been precisely mathematically modelled for the past 50-years, and there's no way around the math or physics, unless you'd like to state that 1 + 1 = 3, which you'll agree it isn't.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com |
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| Guido Tent |
| quote: | Originally posted by SSassen
cables and electronics are governed by the laws of physics, how else would we be able to calculate their behavior? Hence there's nothing mythical or magical about them.
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com [/B] |
Sander,
This is true, though he correlation between these physics and what we hear is not (fully) known.
cheers |
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| Bas Horneman |
| quote: | | You're approaching this from the wrong angle, cables and electronics are governed by the laws of physics, how else would we be able to calculate their behavior? Hence there's nothing mythical or magical about them. |
Hi Sander,
I'm not arguing with your theory on cables. The only thing I would like to say is that I THINK cables make a difference. My speaker cables are woven CAT5..I THINK they sound a lot better than the cheap monster cable I had before. Maybe you think I am delusional, that is fine with me...
What I did want to say is that there are more ways to skin a cat...
Cheers,
Bas |
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| SSassen |
Bas,
True, but I'm not saying you should hook your speakers up with telephone cord, good quality (hence not overpriced) speaker cable is all you need. Whether that's generic 2x2.5mm^2 lamp cord or 2x2.5mm^2 pure OFC silver stranded cable brand X is up to you, I'm just saying that in a double blind test, and by measuring them, these cables will be identical. So why pay absurd prices if there's no measurable or audible difference?
Ps. I told you I always get into these kind of discussions, and look where we're at now.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com |
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| Bas Horneman |
| quote: | | So why pay absurd prices if there's no measurable or audible difference? |
I agree completely :angel: |
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| blu_line |
| quote: | | Ps. I told you I always get into these kind of discussions, and look where we're at now. |
I still would like to invite you and see if there are equal spirits !
grtz
Simon |
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| SSassen |
Guido et al,
Ik heb besloten om ook maar een buizen eind versterker mee te nemen naar de DDIY dag. Het is een stereo single-ended EL84 met een volledig electronisch geregelde voeding en zobel netwerk op de uitgangstrafo's. Uiteraard speelt deze versterker niet erg hard, slechts 2x 3-watt maximaal, maar ik denk dat je verrast zal zijn door de eenvoud van de opbouw van het versterker gedeelte. De voeding is echter wel aardig complex, met buizengelijkrichter, veel onstoring, etc.
Deze versterker is gebouwd in 1993, ik was toen nog student op het Gymnasium en toen al bezig met hifi. Ik heb later nog veel meer versterkers gebouwd, maar deze zijn helaas allemaal weer verkocht. Al mijn courante ontwerpen, oa. een tweetal subwoofers, zijn dusdanig zwaar, of ingebouwd dat ik deze helaas niet mee kan nemen.
Met vriendelijke groet,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com |
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| peranders |
Good luck with your meeting and I want to push for our meeting tomorrow!, see link in my sig.
I read also the Tent and LC Audio products will be written about in the next issue of High-Fidelity (danish/swedish). |
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| Bas Horneman |
| quote: | | Ik heb besloten om ook maar een buizen eind versterker mee te nemen naar de DDIY dag |
Leuk! Ik ben benieuwd..
| quote: | | I want to push for our meeting tomorrow!, |
Good luck with your meeting Per! |
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| SSassen |
Guido et al,
I mention tube amps and within 10-mins there's half a dozen PMs whether I could post a picture of the interior. So here goes, take notice that this predates my education, this is all done back in '93 when I was doing this as a hobby. I would change a few things about the design if I had to do it again, but it is a nice amp nonetheless, with some solid research and principles behind it.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com |
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| earsandeyes |
Most of the "laws" of physic that I am aware of describe phenomena. They are models of what we "see", and they do help us to predict behaviour in the terms that we are able to "measure".
There is still development in these laws. It is a pitty that not all (engineering) studies not only learn you the "laws" but also their limitations and developments.
Looking at all the proza written on the virtue of cables we have not been able to either measure the quality of sound or to predict this quality.
As for cables, I do perceive differences, independent of their economics. The same applies for my wine, unfortunately the tastier ones are more expensive and cannot be replaced by CAT based grapes.
E&E |
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| blu_line |
Coming sunday (the 10th of april) i will close registration.
So if you still wish to be there .....................
grtz
Simon |
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| Leeuwarden |
Today is THE day!
:D |
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| pinkmouse |
| And what happened? :) |
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| Mark25 |
It was a very good day! Well done blu_line.
Mark |
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| Mark25 |
| I guess blu_line will host them somewhere, he did for 2004, it may be better to wait for that rather than filling this thread up. |
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| Bas Horneman |
That's all I took this year |
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| peterr |
It was a great day again this year!
Interresting talks and lots to see.
Bas, too bad I couldn't hear your Bastani's, perhaps next year :rolleyes:
If only a fishingline was found ;) |
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| Bas Horneman |
| quote: | | Bas, too bad I couldn't hear your Bastani's, perhaps next year |
Definitely!!!| quote: | | If only a fishingline was found |
Aaaargh...;) |
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| blu_line |
Check the website !
More pictures are available.
Short reaction : GREAT :D
grtz
Simon |
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| Leeuwarden |
| The electrostatic loudspeaker on the picture from Bas sounded AMAZING! |
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| SSassen |
Simon,
Not a single picture of the Class-D amp, and I even painted it toxic green to make it stand out more! But a good job nonetheless and a sunday well spent I must say.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com |
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| Bas Horneman |
| quote: | | The electrostatic loudspeaker on the picture from Bas sounded AMAZING! |
I thought it sounded pretty good as well. Others thought it sucked. Just goes to show how diverse peoples tastes are.
Simon T...thanks for a great day.
http://home.versatel.nl/ddiy_2005/
Great people as well...an example...I forgot my digital camera in one of the rooms...!!!! Only to find it again!... an hour later..
That's my lardass and me amps (trying to make the floss work as string for my BIX)
The outer speakers are my rendition of the Bastanis Dragonfly...look ok on the pictures...but I have to rebuild them..made some errors
Louis Armstrong record I had planned on playing..bought it the day before for 1 euro..and boy was I suprised with the sound Q.
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bas Horneman
That's my lardass |
Well, you've got more hair than i do :)
Thanx for the pictures
dave |
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| Mark25 |
| The official photos are hosted here. |
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| Guido Tent |
Hi Sander,
For some reason I missed you (over 140 people were there in Zutphen). As I promissed to add other aspects that count for cables, I'll post them here:
- EMC properties (CM to DM conversion)
- Microphony
cheers |
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