| dw8083 |
Hi,
While looking at the inside of the Pass X series commercial amp, I noticed the primary amp board is connected to the output device boards through a ribbon cable.
I never would have imagined that standard computer ribbon cable would suffice for high-end amp signal wire!!
http://welch.com/pass%20X-Amp.jpg
Somehow I envisioned nothing but 5-9 copper wire with silver coating or something.
Is this correct?
Thank you,
-David |
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| kilowattski |
| To be honest, thats what I am going to use in my Aleph -X except I am going to use 14 awg ribbon. The 14 awg ribbon is used for the wiring of trailer lights and can be found in an auto supply store. So I guess I am not surprised. It makes a much neater wiring job. I am also not so sure that using this type of cable is bad and causes any ill effects at all. I guess the proof is in the pudding. Nelson's x amps sound pretty good to me. |
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| cowanrg |
| there is a big difference between a commercial product and a one-off piece you build in your garage. sometimes you have to make small sacrifices to make a unit practical. |
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| analog_sa |
| quote: | | I noticed the primary amp board is connected to the output device boards through a ribbon cable. |
It's amazing what 'high end' manufacturers get away with. Dirt cheap caps, bad connectors, cheap wire. But very, very expensive casing. Not because of extra attention to vibration control and eddy currents. Just because they know that looks and magazine reviews sell; how many customers can actually hear anyway? |
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| Dr. ODD |
| A computer ribbon cable is a few solid core wires in paralell. Thats definitly not the worst you can do.:cool: |
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| analog_sa |
| quote: | | A computer ribbon cable is a few solid core wires in paralell |
Not IME. Multistrand. |
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| kilowattski |
analog,
Could it be that we all have subscribed to the fallacy the we need to use the most expensive components we can get our hands on, when if we really understood the physics of what we are doing, we would realize that the mundane would suffice. |
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| AuroraB |
I really don't want to carry more wood to the wellknown fire of cable mystery and mumbo jumbo.....
I just want some of you to make the little following experiment:
Get your ruler, tape measure or whatever you use. Then try to measure and add up the total length of component leads, PCB tracks, hook-up wires etc.etc. that form the signal path in your amps...What extra-terrestrial super-exotic metal might these be made of ??
Answer..?? 50 cm? 1m for a big amp ?? Maybe even more for a lot of THE big amps.....and all plain production copper......
I have no problems to accept the wish of minimum length signal path, -in fact that is something I struggle with also professionally.
But please, folks..- get real! A ribbon cable is nothing more than some lengths of hook-up wire "bonded" together.
But of course,- we can start another hilarious discussion wether the hook-up wires should be run in parallell or criss-crossed......
or maybe they should be 1AWG solid 99.99999999999999 silver? |
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| Joules |
| It's not so much that one type of wire sounds better or not, it's that we FEEL better Knowing we have done all we can do. |
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| Nelson Pass |
| quote: | Originally posted by analog_sa
It's amazing what 'high end' manufacturers get away with. Dirt cheap caps, bad connectors, cheap wire. But very, very expensive casing. Not because of extra attention to vibration control and eddy currents. Just because they know that looks and magazine reviews sell; how many customers can actually hear anyway? |
Well there's a ringing endorsement. Did you count how many
strands of ribbon cable were being used in parallel? (768)
correction: 640 |
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| cowanrg |
| im holding my credit card just waiting to see what commercial line of amplifiers analog_sa comes out with. with his vision, they must be AMAZING. and ill bet he charges competitive prices as well... |
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| jam |
analog_sa,
..................to add to Mr.Pass's comments there is built in redudancy hence making it a more reliable product, a hallmark of Pass Labs designs. ;) |
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| Nelson Pass |
To give credit to analog_sa, he makes a perfectly good point,
I just don't think it happens to apply to moi..... :cool: |
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| dw8083 |
Nelson's commercial amps and GENEROUSLY shared designs speak for themselves on their brilliance and quality!
If I recall correctly, time and again Nelson has suggested the judicial use of high dollar components where it really matters.
It seems one of the hallmark's of a good engineer is to understand the practical balance between sonic gains with diminishing returns and commercial practicality.
Surprising how many of us DIYer's over build in some areas and cobble together in others.
Still never would have considered computer ribbon cable as decent enough for great sound quality. It definately keeps the build looking clean and organized.
-David |
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| tiroth |
I don't see where the beef is.
Pass Labs products have always been well engineered, which is about picking the correct part, not necessarily the most expensive one. |
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| grataku |
Ribbon cable can very effectively handle many 10's of MHz bandwidhts in your ordinary computer box so they can probably carry a little audio just peachy.
If you want more refinement you can always go for Nelson's kitchen table creations. ;-) |
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| uli |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nelson Pass
Well there's a ringing endorsement. Did you count how many
strands of ribbon cable were being used in parallel? (768)
correction: 640 |
*ROFLMAO*
Uli
:nod: :nod: :nod: |
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| dw8083 |
I remember a while back that Nelson had posted internal pictures of the commercial X-Amps. I was not able to find them through searching and clicking.
Does anyone else remember that thread?
Thank you!
-David |
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| GRollins |
Does it help if you compare it to flat cables, such as Nordost?
Grey |
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| dw8083 |
Thanks Jam for the link!
Grey, I would have assumed that computer ribbon cable would have somehow colored the sound characteristics either brighter or more sterile.
Kilowattski had an interesting idea of using trailer light ribbon cable to think about.
-David |
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| Nelson Pass |
With ribbon cable you can control the inductance/capacitance
as you please, using any combination of parallel outgoing
and return wiring spacing. In the X amps it has the particular
virtue of allowing good matching of the symmetric parts of the
circuit wiring so that they follow consistent matched paths. As
each of these wires is good for a continuous amp and you get
tons of redundancy, it works out extremely well. 640 wires
allows a continuous bias current of about 200 amps in an
XA200, which of course it does not use.
And contrary to the assumptions of the thread starter, it is much
more expensive than even heavy "audiophile" wire. |
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| janneman |
| quote: | Originally posted by kilowattski
analog,
Could it be that we all have subscribed to the fallacy the we need to use the most expensive components we can get our hands on, when if we really understood the physics of what we are doing, we would realize that the mundane would suffice. |
Yes, once in a while somebody sees the connections (pun intended). Wholeheartedly agree!
Jan Didden |
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| dw8083 |
Great! Thanks Nelson for the helpful overview.
-David
P.S. This is David ---> :cubehead: This is Nelson ---> :wiz: |
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