| Graham Maynard |
Hi All,
Like so many other enthusiasts I build my own circuits and link them together, but they do not end up being particularly user friendly and respectable looking.
I have decided this time around to buy a reasonable and current integrated stereo amplifier and then modify it to my own requirements.
As I still have over 2000 7" vinyl singles from my 60's and 70's disco days and many of them have still not appeared on CD, I wish to digitally archive them.
Therefore it is essential that any amplifier I buy will have a standard phono input plus separate bass/treble controls or equaliser circuitry. A pre-amp output would also be useful, but this can obviously be retro fitted.
The amplifier would not need to be powerful because I already have other power amplification, but I would like it to be clean sounding, decently serviceable within its own right, and also have a remote control.
I quite like the look of the Musical Fidelity X-150, but as with anything else of decent quality or pedigree it does not these days have any tone controls.
So far I like the looks of the Rotel RA-02, and I note that there is an Arcam A65, but searching for such an 'old fashioned' specification is not easy in today's market place, and thus I am asking if any members would have other recommendations for an amplifier I could work upon.
Cheers ............ Graham. |
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| Netlist |
Hi Graham,
Not wanting to influence your decision to use an integrated amp to do your recordings but why not use a good phono preamp connected to a good soundcard in a computer. Cooledit (now Adobe Audition) is worth every penny.
/Hugo :) |
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| savenger |
| I agree with Hugo. Done some vinyl and tape archiving like that. You can "master" it then with software, remove clicks and do many other things afterwards. Quite time consuming job you got ahead :D (if you gonna do all your records, i would suggest much coffee and even some beer). |
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| Graham Maynard |
Hi Hugo,
That was indeed my first thought, but I cannot find a phono pre-amp with tone controls that will make best sound from 30 year old pop singles.
I want to hear and adjust before I record, rather than try to modify the files later, so I am now considering driving a soundcard from 'pre-amp out' sockets that are normally used for driving slave amplifiers.
Indeed I intend to also cut out the 47k/250pF nominal phono input components and fit a dual gang potentiometer plus dual gang RF tuning capacitor to further optimise initial transduction.
Yes it will be some job Savenger, but maybe more than the vinyl would be spinning if I sipped the beer.
I now see that there is a Marantz PM7200 that offers plenty of input adjustment and interconnection. Also a KI version.
While on this topic; I have two older P3/500MHz computers and my son has a fully AV-3.2GHz-RaidXP. One of mine is W-98, one W-Me. Neither see all of a 'C' drive bigger than 30GB. Would XP on one of the old computers see the full contents of a bigger drive, say using stacked external drives via USB2 cards already fitted, or would BIOS still get in the way. ?
Cheers ............ Graham. |
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| destroyer X |
Hello Graham, this is very interesting...but....my God!, will be a hard work.
I have a suggestion, not top performing, but some idea, not tested already.
Make a low noise flat amp, with those burr brown chips... stereo unit and connect it to an equalizer..... the equalizer output to your PC, can be the ME that likes those things.
Have some program alike Easy Hi Q, from Roemer Software, the one i used to record conversations with my family in the south of this country, (i use 16K sampling and 3 minutes around 480K....but only good to voice)
This program have a freeware that you can download, the limit is 3 minutes, maybe you can make some fade in and fade out, and also you can select 4 musics each Vinil Record.
The program can use your computer audio mixer, if you need to enter the music title with voice, and can be switched to line in, or microphone and mixer output, of course.
Adjustments can be mono or stereo, and goes from 8K to 320K...where you have a fair rate of 96K....CD compatible recordings are around 200K...you can have more than CD...and much less to...output is MP3, if you can tollerate that codification
Of course the 3 minutes limit imposed can be changed buying the program.....or.......rack?...brack?....you know!
So, 4 musics each Vinil, 2000 units, you have 8000 musics that you can multiply by 3 minutes (more or less)....24000 minutes recording and not counting the time deciding adjustments and making test recordings and making short playbacks (when reproducing, the Windows Media Player can equalize your reproduction, and also you can make the recording in 320K, equalize the MP3 recording playback and send it again to new recording in lower sampling rate...results may be reasonable as i am making this here.
Well, finishing, your 24000 minutes will be multiplied by 700K each minute (96K, a fair adjustment), this will produce 16.8 Gigabytes that will be reasonable to complete a 20 Gigabytes HD.
Six monthes recording, working 4 hours each day, and spending 3 minutes recording and 3 minutes with adjustments and beer.
40 mililiters of beer each 3 minutes working, will result in 320 litters of good beer, around 1.6 liters each day.
Hepatic Cirrosis guaranteed, and will died before listen all your recordings...better to exclude the beer!
Well, Graham, if you decided to go ahead with beer, please, ask my adress and they can sent me the HD when you find God!.
If you go to Coffee...will turn brown colored and may have some heart attack.
Better wait a little bit more, as those recordings may appear someday.
To masterize, in a decent way.....lets see....hummmmm, you may be younger than 23 years old..... because, life will be not enougth long to finish.
regards...hehe.
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
But you can make millions of 3 minutes recordings!
The whole program is 7.3 Megabytes to download.
Adjustment image, this is 1 from 3. |
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| destroyer X |
| Other adjustment example: |
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| destroyer X |
Singing that music that tell:
- I will survive!
hehe....good!
Carlos |
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| jacco vermeulen |
Graham,
25 years ago i built my first loudspeakers because i ended up in the shops with solid brand speakers way over my budget.
First i planned to buy a decent integrated amplifier once my loudspeakers were finished.
The beginning of the story of how i got deeper and deeper in DIY insanity.
I desired putting my record collection on CD from the day a Philips employee constructed the first converter and software to turn analog recordings from a record on a CD through a personal computer.
A large portion has been put on CD, maybe one day i will even buy the program :clown:
My question:
why a current model if you intent to fondle its insides?
I turned to building it myself, as most integrated had a tadd over a few faulty details.
From your posting i read that you intend to use the amplifier between your record player and PC.
In my view, to acquire a proper digital recording, you need a quality amplifier from the input, phono stage, volume controll, line amplifier and the outputs.
Just a suggestion, why not look for a quality chassis with a decent powersupply model, preferably non-contemporary, clean it out and put quality circuits in them with at least an Alps volume attenuator?
Then tweak the recordings digitally, the stuff i collected sounds horrible on the original record.
Magix has a professional product. |
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| jaycee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Graham Maynard
While on this topic; I have two older P3/500MHz computers and my son has a fully AV-3.2GHz-RaidXP. One of mine is W-98, one W-Me. Neither see all of a 'C' drive bigger than 30GB. Would XP on one of the old computers see the full contents of a bigger drive, say using stacked external drives via USB2 cards already fitted, or would BIOS still get in the way. ?
Cheers ............ Graham. |
XP doesn't care what the BIOS reports as it is NT based and gets this information from the disk controller, unlike 95/98/ME which has to be compatible with MS-DOS and therefore uses the BIOS.
However, I'm not sure what the size limit on a FAT32 file system is, but you can easily convert to NTFS after installing XP where the limit is something insane like in the Terabyte range.
Also get a decent sound card, an external one would be best. The internal Soundblasters don't come into this category as they are consumer cards and full of s**t for audiophile quality sound. The Extigy isn't bad for the price as far as I know but there is better - Look for stuff by M-Audio. |
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| Graham Maynard |
Hi Carlos,
Many thanks for your thoughts. As you say, beer or coffee would probably kill me before the task is complete.
'I will survive' Definitely; and got it too, Gloria Gaynor, Polydor, 1979. Some singles were maybe just over 2 minutes but many were much longer than 3, so think I'll go for an 'over the counter' route.
Thanks for the links too, the Harman one said I was not authorised to enter.
Hi jacco,
Yup there is a kind of DIY audio insanity, though it is more like a compulsive obsessive disorder which you eventually grow out of once you buy or try a few 'ultimate' designs that really disappoint.
Besides, Carlos keeps our heads out of the clouds !
I could do what I want with audio, but I can't make it look good and satisfy 'her indoors'.
Wifey doesn't like the Marantz 7200 which would give me plenty of concealed space for tweaking, not even the champagne coloured KI version, but she likes the neatness of the Rotel RA02, and with its phono stage plus post pre-amp/tone control output that I can use to drive homemade monoblocks with, this will be the one for me to 'improve'.
I would prefer to optimise the audio before recording, and then make any subsequently necessary digital re-adjustment.
You cannot improve what is already missing, as is the case with many CDs.
I also found a good list of review links in case anyone else is wanting to choose;-
<http://www.ecoustics.com/Editorial/...ecent_Date/All/>
Hi jaycee,
So I *CAN* go to XP and NTFS ( after SP2 that means - Never The F@£$*~% Same! ) and use bigger USB2 connected drives. Brilliant. Thanks for your suggestions too, I will indeed be going for external converters.
I'll have plenty of room for 'Juke Box' hardware once the discs are away, and it would so be nice to have a flat screen where the old Thorens has sat for 30yrs.
Cheers ............ Graham. |
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| jacco vermeulen |
A Marantz is what i was about to suggest.
Some still look smashing, built for eternity.
Many have solid powersupplies, and these models can be had for scratch.
I have old wifey audio related stories, but that is considered nagging.
My Misses now has virtually no limits concerning my insanity, as long as i remain in the real world.
jacco. |
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| GEirin |
Hi Graham.
Recently I have build a RIIA preamplifier.
The preamplifier has:
- RIIA equalization
- subsonic filter
- tilt tone control
For me, tilt tone control is important. Is very beneficial for correcting tonal. Iam very content.
Guillermo Eirín |
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| Graham Maynard |
Hi Guillermo,
Don't forget that I can still do all of these things in or around an integrated amplifier.
I can even construct beneath the turntable deck, whilst post pre-amp in/out sockets can be used for buffered outboard tone tilting, which I would like.
Is your pre-amp circuit freely available, or is it copyright ?
Cheers ........... Graham. |
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| lumanauw |
Hi, GM,
Here (I dont know in your place), I can go to local electronic market, and find many-many finished plate casing, for amps, preamps, eq, etc. They are good looking too, and quite cheap. Just need to buy (or built) for what will be put inside them. |
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| Graham Maynard |
Hi lumanauw,
Yes, but with me being the experimenter that I am, you can't beat having a remote control so that you can move about a room listening to and for different amplifier-loudspeaker induced effects.
Cheers .......... Graham. |
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| Bill Fitzpatrick |
| quote: | Originally posted by Graham Maynard
move about a room listening to and for different amplifier-loudspeaker induced effects. |
Amplifier induced effects that change with listener position within a room. That's a good one. |
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| destroyer X |
Some protude object, that you forgot under the motorcicle seat cushion can also make a big different in confort Bill.
How is your heath my dear...hehe....confortable?
saudações sujeito danadinho. regards you clever guy!
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
This language will create problems to me.... all things the same....aaagh... chip, cheap....my god!
Carlos |
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| Graham Maynard |
Hi Bill,
Come on now!
I work with loudspeakers too, and you need a remote to check things out that you cannot hear if you have to keep running back to the amplifier.
Its objective and subjective comment we seek here, not those that are personally directed. Carlos is more dedicated than you give him credit for !
Cheers ......... Graham. |
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| Bill Fitzpatrick |
| quote: | Originally posted by Graham Maynard
Its objective and subjective comment we seek here, not those that are personally directed. Carlos is more dedicated than you give him credit for ! |
As far as I can tell, a certain degree of personal banter is acceptable on this forum. I give Carlos plenty of credit for his dedication. |
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| sam9 |
Getting back to original topic, the suggestion of going turntable-to-RIAA-preamp-to-soundcard was rejected due to lack of tone controls. I have faced this issue myself (though not with the intent of undertaking such a major effort) and concluded that tone controls or any other external processing are best dispensed with. The tone control function can be accomplished with CoolEdit or similar software - I use GoldWave.
These are much more satisfactory because if you don't get it right the first time, you can try again without the need to play the LP again. You can unabiguosly note the exact settings in order to make the results reproduceable. It is possible to work in 24/96 resolution even with a budget souncared such as the SantaCruz, The SC by the way will give a THD+N floor of .006% or better (my personal measurement), M-Audio is lower still and if you are filthy rich Lynx soundcards are absurdluy "clean".
A good, yet cheap and simple RIAA preamp is the Bugle from www.hagtech.com which can opperate off a pair of 9V batteries (no ripple or other PS concerns to contend with).
One trap to avoid for anyone transfering LP to digital: You might think "let's just skip the RIAA preamp and to that digitally as well". Not good, the RIAA EQ that was applied in the recording process results in phase changes inherent in any filter circuit. The reverse EQ done by the analog preamp resorse the original phase relationship. Digital proccess often don't alter phase so the phase relationships will not be restored. |
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| jacco vermeulen |
| quote: | Originally posted by destroyer X
How is your heath my dear...hehe....confortable? |
Carlos, you are a nut, but a very nice one. :clown: |
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| destroyer X |
Always i met bill i do with him those things, he was one the first to receive me in this forum, 9 monthes ago... and he received me with that.
"I heard a chicken Squizze"...and i turn very nervous with him, asked him to put a protude thing under the motorcicle seat cushion to see if he turns more kind.
His anwer was so funny that i cannot forget, the noises he made... alike Yessss, wow...goood!, and i perceive that he is not a bad guy, the opposite, he has a very ligthed sense of humor, a clever and always finding someway to kick our a-- when we made some mistake.... alike a hawk making turns in the skies, waiting the moment to descend and attack.
I must say that i like him very much, really i like him...but, the first impression was awfull.
Sorry to interrupt, go ahead with the topic.
Thank you Graham
Carlos |
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| Graham Maynard |
Hi Sam,
Many thanks for your suggestions. You raise the phase aspect, and this is precisely why I want a phono/pre-amp before the converter.
I want to make the best I can before any digital processing because there is an observed variety between various disc recording characteristics, not all of them acheived overall RIAA. That is why I want to vary the R and C of the pickup loading too, because different cutter heads had different high frequency characteristics, and in the 'pop' world some pressings were not so good or even properly central.
This might all sound over the top, but I've already built a phono stage with this variability, including RIAA characteristic roll-off at 25Hz instead of 50Hz, and the options can make so much difference to listening pleasure.
Sure there are even CD productions that clearly do not play back with flat phase either, and these may be improved upon by the 'tone'/tilt or equaliser controls that can be missing from audiophile systems.
Cheers ........... Graham. |
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| GEirin |
Hi Graham.
The pre - amp circuit is free. My inspiration result the differents articles:
- Page Elliott Sound Products, Projet 25.
- www.headwize.com. Projet: Designing a pocket equalizer for headphone listening.
Other recomendation for stereo amplifier:
My amplifier integrate has a psicho-acoustics tone control. This is a circuit original. Is very, very good.
Guillermo Eirín |
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