| Andypairo |
This auction is really odd....
Aleph-X boards at 49€
I have no words....
Cheers
Andrea:whazzat: :whazzat: |
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| sek |
| Why? Someone is selling his Aleph-X boards. Perhaps no time to build them, or no use for them anymore... |
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| tschrama |
This worries me too, this is not not a good development at all :whazzat: .. I'm not so good with words but I hope that somebody who is might convince the seller cancel such auctions..
:xeye:
Thijs |
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| Magura |
I have sent the following message to the seller through Ebay:
Are you aware of the fact that you are selling patented boards, that have generously been allowed to be produced for non profit purposes by Nelson Pass??
If this auction have not been removed within 24 hours, you will be reported for this to both the owner of the patent (nelson Pass) and Ebay.
Best regards
Morten
Lets see what happens.
Magura:) |
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| sek |
I'm confused by the guy, too!
But you folks don't seem to be familiar with german law (it's on ebay germany).
If he owns it, he may sell it. Even if it's patented, he may sell it as long as he doesn't violate german patent laws.
In case he's doing it as a business, that's another story.
Sebastian. |
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| dieringe |
| But he is silly enough to sell it in "Tube Amplifiers". And who knows what an Aleph X or Aleph ONO is? I think he won't get any bids :D |
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| Andypairo |
| quote: | Originally posted by sek
Why? Someone is selling his Aleph-X boards. Perhaps no time to build them, or no use for them anymore... |
What's wrong is that such boards clearly come from the group buy and that were proced about $5 each... selling 2 for 50 € seems a 5x overprice to me....
cheers
Andrea |
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| sek |
I know it's wrong, Andy.
My point is just: it's not illegal.
Another question that arises: Which rules might he actually violate? PassDIY, DIYAudio or ebay?
Regarding the group buy: May he have been a participant? I don't think so, as he wouldn't offer the set as a tube amp ;). He could just have bought them overpriced and someone else is to blame... I can't tell. Just wanted you to know that what he does is (still) legal.
The guy looks like a beginner ("audiosix52 (2)"), but behaves experienced.
As soon as I see him offering an item twice, I'll instantly agree with you! ;)
Sebastian.
PS: Did he reply? |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by sek
PS: Did he reply? |
Yes, he did. He don't care about the fact that the boards are for non profit only, and in general he couldn't care less if his actions causes problems to the DIY community or others in general.
As far as I'm concerned, at least he is not allowed to sell them as aleph x boards, as aleph x is a trademark of NP???
Magura:) |
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| SY |
| quote: | | Which rules might he actually violate? PassDIY, DIYAudio or ebay? |
Only the rules of morality.
Certainly not diyAudio.com's rules- his ads have been removed from this site. |
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| Nelson Pass |
Being in Germany, he would be violating trademark conventions,
I believe. |
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| till |
In case one does posses one set of boards privately, and want to sell it, he could do to any price he wants.
Another point is, in case one had ordered exactly 2 of those groupbuy PCBs + shipping those 2 germany + ebay fee, he would not make much money selling those 2 for 50€.
In case one orderd 100 and does sell them now for making money it may be different. |
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| cocolino |
| quote: | Regarding the group buy: May he have been a participant? I don't think so, as he wouldn't offer the set as a tube amp . He could just have bought them overpriced and someone else is to blame... I can't tell. Just wanted you to know that what he does is (still) legal.
The guy looks like a beginner ("audiosix52 (2)"), but behaves experienced.
As soon as I see him offering an item twice, I'll instantly agree with you!
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I was the coordinator of the German X-Aleph group buy. I just checked the old email orders. I shipped 10 boards to a guy in Lemgo.............
| quote: | In case one does posses one set of boards privately, and want to sell it, he could do to any price he wants.
Another point is, in case one had ordered exactly 2 of those groupbuy PCBs + shipping those 2 germany + ebay fee, he would not make much money selling those 2 for 50€.
In case one orderd 100 and does sell them now for making money it may be different.
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One board of the German group buy including everything (insured shipping to Germany, tax, customs, PayPal fees, customs broker fees) came out to be excactly Euro 6......
In case he can indeed sell two boards for Euro 50, do the math. and You`ll see that this is not bad profit (especially when he sell several boards) for the effort writing an order email.
I don`t know if this guy is breaking any laws with this sale actually.
Anyway, as he is offering other PCB`s also, as for example X-Ono boards, apparently from a DIY-Audio.com group buy as well and various other clone-PCB`s (check his recent sales) this smells strongly of making profit from DIY group efforts and from generous people like Mr. Pass who allows this sales (and the attitude this seller shows in reply to Magura`s email do emphasize this even more) :down: :down: :down: |
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| Magura |
This is exactly what many of us feared would happen, when making pcb group buys of something that isn't meant for commercial sale.
Considering how many AX boards that were made, and how many AX amp's that have actually seen the light of day made by a forum member, this situation was to expect sooner or later. I am confident that we can't do much about it now, but what could we do different next time such a group buy comes up, to avoid ending up in this situation again?
A first step would be to limit the number of boards to 1 pair per member, that would limit the problem a bit.
This situation is the No. 1 reason why so many people keep their designs and ideas to themselves, it couldn't possibly do more damage to the DIY community.
Magura:) |
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| twitchie |
| It may be the popularity of DIY that has made this both possible and at the same time makes his ebay post potentially very futile, as anyone who would know what to do with those boards would almost certainly also know where they came from and what they were originally priced at. |
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| promitheus |
I agree with that 100%
Who would buy the boards at that price anyway? |
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| GRollins |
The answer to that question will be revealed at the end of the auction.
The buyer will need at least a parts list, if not a schematic. Is that included in the auction?
Grey |
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| Panelhead |
Looking at the complexity of the x and the XONO, I cannot imagine an uninformed person buying these.
KK offers these with a manual and parts list and seems to have sold less than 10 pairs. There does not seem to be a very large world wide market for the diy equipment.
But I want to build a mini X as the next amplifier project. Bet it will sing with PM2A drivers.
George |
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| sek |
Perhaps a future solution to the problem could be to include an agreement not to sell them. Buying something from a group buy is actually already like contracting to a (non-profit) seller. I see no reason why such a statement couldn't be included in a future group buy.
Another idea would be an imprint "Not for sale, in case someone offers you this board, please contact ...". You get the picture. ;)
I'm just thinking about the guy. Isn't selling stuff from a group buy like reselling samples? It's clear that this is forbidden, but can we make that clear to ebay?
Cocolino, you can safely identify the boards and every buyer, do you want to contact ebay on this?
Magura, could you post your conversation with him (I don't think we have to care for his "copyright" on it too much...)?
Sebastian. |
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| Michi124 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nelson Pass
Being in Germany, he would be violating trademark conventions,
I believe. |
Absolutely right. Since Nelson is the owner of the trademarks "Aleph" and "X-ONO", he can object against their use directly at ebay Germany:
- visit ebay's VeRi-program (verified right-owners) here:
http://pages.ebay.de/help/confidence/programs-vero.html
- fill out the pdf and fax it to ebay (sorry, it's german).
In further cases a simple email will be sufficient.
Being rather slow normally, ebay ends those auctions VERY fast... |
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| Michi124 |
UPDATE:
This morning, the seller himself ended both auctions:
"Items are not for sale anymore" :D :D :D |
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| sek |
| quote: | | "Items are not for sale anymore" |
Interesting ;)
BTW, he could of course have found this thread...
Anyway, are my above suggestion worth any further thought?
I'm thinking of doing such ugly things to my own boards, but I've never liked seing 'branded' board layouts published for DIY use on the net (except when there are patents involved or the IP holder states it shortly, maybe).
Sebastian. |
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| ljozsef |
The world is divided to lucky and unlucky people - .
Lucky ones have ordered a lot of boards for safety, development or business. Unluckies missed the group action and were trying to get after hours. Most unluckies live in Hungary: they did finally found a very honest reseller (25 EUR for 4 boards including all costs), money sent, boards never arrived (at least since middle of June). It wasn't registered, end of the story. (Was my first temptation to test the Hungarian Post, being happy newbies in the European Union; until then, all my eBay parcels were directed to my brother in Germany with no losses).
What is the DIYer doing? - first point-to-point, too complicated, white smoke etc. Second chance: printing the thread pictures of the board, holes in PCBs through them, a "nice" hand-drawing and with the Dremel and the finest router bit trying by hand something very enjoying... not recommended.
Now it sings marvellous though I could hear each only mono yet (mechanical finishing in process). However, I will never post its pictures because of the exagerated DIY-aspect of the boards.
Because of this story made me a bit sad reading this thread (well ended, fortunately). And maybe I was a bit off-thread, too. I am sorry...
Laci |
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| Nelson Pass |
Just for the record, I am not aware that anyone
took any action in this regard. |
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| Michi124 |
| I did. Other members may have done the same. |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by Michi124
I did. Other members may have done the same. |
I did as well, as I see no reason to let 1 person pollute the othervise relatively well working DIY community we have here.
Magura:) |
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| cocolino |
| quote: | originally posted by promitheus
Who would buy the boards at that price anyway? |
Somebody who came late on the group buy and want to have boards by all means.
| quote: | originally posted by GRollins
The buyer will need at least a parts list, if not a schematic. Is that included in the auction? |
The text in the auction say a "partslist-schematic" is included....
| quote: | originally posted by sek
Perhaps a future solution to the problem could be to include an agreement not to sell them. Buying something from a group buy is actually already like contracting to a (non-profit) seller. I see no reason why such a statement couldn't be included in a future group buy. |
I believe everybody who have ordered boards from the group buy must have known already under which conditions (for DIYers only and not for sale on a profit basis) those boards were being sold.
I don`t think somebody with the intention of making profit do care much about such an agreement (as this guy also demonstrated in reply to Magura).
IMO unfortunately it can not be done much about those kind of things - sadly they just happen sometimes. Taken into account the huge amounts of X-Aleph boards which have been sold through DIY-Audio.com, I have to say it does make me indeed wonder that this do not happen more often. To me it seems that DIYers are quite disciplined overall!
| quote: | originally posted by sek
Cocolino, you can safely identify the boards and every buyer, do you want to contact ebay on this? |
I can not identify THIS boards. All I can say is that I have shipped 10 of this kind of boards to a guy in Lemgo. It is very, very likely that this person is also the ebay seller of this boards but I have no 100% prove of this. As Magura has a reply from him I`ll forward the name to him and we`ll see if there is a correlation
which does not leave any doubt.
Of course I wouldn`t mind contacting ebay though - but I`m glad the seller ended his DIY-Audio.com PCB auctions already (for whatever reason). |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by cocolino
As Magura has a reply from him I`ll forward the name to him and we`ll see if there is a correlation
which does not leave any doubt.
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Feel free to send me a mail, but you gotta include either something interesting or a good joke, as the name of your guy will not make any difference to me. ;) The guy signed his replies with his ebay username.
Magura:) |
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| promitheus |
why are you guys making this a big deal?
If somebody came late to group buy, he could ask in the forum if somebody had any spare ones. A lot of people have. |
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| cocolino |
| quote: | | Feel free to send me a mail, but you gotta include either something interesting or a good joke, as the name of your guy will not make any difference to me. The guy signed his replies with his ebay username. |
How I love this people which don`t sign with their real name - not only that`s very bad style IMO, it also gives the impression that there is to hide something...... :rolleyes:
Well, than it does not make sense. Although it would have been interesting, finally it doesn`t make a big difference either.
| quote: | why are you guys making this a big deal?
If somebody came late to group buy, he could ask in the forum if somebody had any spare ones. A lot of people have.
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It`s redundant to speculate wether the seller would have been able to sell the boards actually and possibly who could have bought them. The fact alone that he have offered them (for this starting price, obviously for making profit) did no good. |
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| stefanobilliani |
| quote: | Originally posted by ljozsef
Now it sings marvellous though I could hear each only mono yet (mechanical finishing in process). However, I will never post its pictures because of the exagerated DIY-aspect of the boards.
Laci |
I am interested to see your work anyway
:) |
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| ljozsef |
As you had helped me in the past in a long correspondence with your tested solutions regarding the 930's Sony mods, I cannot say other than Of Coarse.
However, the amp is just being assembled (serious work to move it regularely from my cellar shop to the 1st floor and back), will last a few days to reach the first switch on - and, finally, to watch it stereo! And at its final parameters, as testings were made at about +/- 12 V rails and some 0,9 A through the four 640s (because of the low transformer voltage; the final version is eight FETs/channel, 15 V rails by voltage doubling - thank you, "byteboy"!!! - 0.95 A / FET, totally 264 mF/channel - 70 mF now). It shall sing at least a bit better; and stereo.
Sorry, but your solution will only follow the power amp (and if necessary, the BOSOZ). Was pointless to mod the player until no balanced line yet. BTW, did you read the thread explaining another mod, bypassing the second V/I IC and using directly the balanced voltage signal which exists in the Sony? It would need only buffering (ideally the BOSOZ), and we are at the AX-inputs.
Laci |
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| stefanobilliani |
Hello Laci,
That's fine, I hope you will enjoy your amp :drink:
I learned that a voltage signal is avaiable in the Sony already at the digital filter stage (VC PLUS) . This allows the bypassing of one DAC and an I/V stage . More - allright - that output is balanced.
I didn't read the thread , however.
:smash: |
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| Pan2 |
stefano,
I use the "VC" output to a Zapfilter2 in my SCD-XB940 sounds extremly good. Perfect with SACD and very good with redbook only there is some audible noise.
Sorry for interupting the thread by going off topic. :)
/Peter |
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| byteboy |
Hi Laci,
Nice to hear you succeeded in using the somewhat too low transformer voltages with the voltage doubling method!
I agree with the others that we have to see your work (Maybe in another thread), irrespective of the "exagerated DIY-aspect" of it - Just exactly because of this we should see it!!! :) :) :)
I think finnishing a project like this without having easy access to sources for parts like others may have is an ever bigger achievement! |
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| ljozsef |
Hi, all,
After two weeks of hospital I managed to make important steps in prefinishing the AX-project.
The most important thing, read and heard many times everywhere but now tested and defitively authenticated: It is a crime using an amp with balanced imputs unbalanced. Half an hour that I switched on - the amp already warm! - the modified Sony CDP-XB930QS (mille grazie, Stefano!!) soldering 4 wires only after the I/V balanced outputs and w/o caps laid directly to the AX, and Norah Jones sings such silky, sentimental and touchable, the instruments with such a deepness, freedom, punch and naturalness as I never heard yet. All that with some old and small Infinities, in my bedroom, at the -20dB/min position of the player. I am not able yet to transport the monstrum downstairs yet to connect the 100kg/each boxes, inspired by Watt/Puppy and Andromeda (Tony Gee - best regards!).
The 12,5V rails seem to be more than enough. Unfortunately, the very nice idea of byteboy to use a voltage doubler PSU was not used (yet...) because of the safe dissipation limits of my IRF640s (the resulting rail voltage is very dependent on the extracted current, and with 8 MOSFETs/ch only would give an optimal working point of very high dissipation).
During writing I started Norah again and am simply fascinated. The miracle of balanced driving is the same as the first sonic impression of the AX compared to the McGee VMOS amp (why VMOS? - it is full of lateral Hitachies...). Biggest thanks to Nelson and Grey!
(The DC offset made by direct coupling does not disturb me at all. Fortunately, the diff one rises at some 10s of mV only. No way to use caps!)
Laci |
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| stefanobilliani |
Prego, Laci.
Isn't a good thing the balanced source?I like it so much,and everytime it's possible I drive my Pass amps balanced.
The Sony XB930QS is a nice machine , very well constructed and if you will upgrade with the Tent clock, it will be a good player.
Nice to ear you like it too. :)
I finished the second MLTL speaker , a design by M.J. King , with the Fostex FE206E. The drivers have arrived a week ago and the stuffing is in progress . I haven't been able to find the Dacron fiber 'til now and a substitute material taked its place.
My DIY F1 (...) works Very Well with this speakers- biased at more than 5A/channel it deliver the necessary , effortless power.
The system can play LOUD and musical results fascinated me completely.
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:) :) :) :) :) |
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