| Affordable, good and *available* full range drivers? - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| falcott |
Once upon a time in DIY land, there was available from Radio Shack a US$12 full range driver that would give the legendary Lowther, worth more than 100 times that figure, a run for its money. Meanwhile, here I am down at the navel of the earth (New Zealand) seeking such an affordable, fantastic and available driver for Voigt Pipes (straight or folded) that I am about to build. :smash: :clown: Does anyone have any suggestions as to what and where? (People outside New Zealand, please don't feel left out here. Maybe your supplier can ship worldwide at little cost?)
Cheers ;) |
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| falcott |
| By the way, my speakers will be driven by a buffered Gainclone chip amp. |
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| Nuuk |
CPC (in the UK) do this 8 inch full-range at around 10 UKP.
I used a pair for a speaker experiment and thought that they sounded rather good.
I have now dismantled the polystyrene baffles and am planning to try the drivers in some Voigt pipes when I can scrounge the cabinet materials.
And yes, I have been driving these with Gainclones ;) |
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| THOR |
Not in its wildest dreams would the rat shack give a lowther <
(as bad as it is) A run for its money. I had 2 1197s and4 of the bigger ones and thought they were so ordinary that i gave them as door prizes at my hi fi open house
The fostex FE107E @ $33.50USD , @ madisound is a star,will KILL the RS, and the fostex FE167E is a shining star for value @63.50 ea,and
will kill most more expensive ones, and the Jordan Jx92S (135 ea.)will kill the fostex and most everything else price not withstanding on direct A/B, and the supravox 215 sig bicone is simply unaproachable in sound for the $ @ 335 ea.
You do get what you pay for if u shop wisely. Quality has no regrets!
In trying to find a great sounding cheap speaker sys, i spent in 5 years, 6 times
what my jordans finally cost. You are going to have 100dreds in the rest of the system , so why ruin it with a cheap speaker, money isnt that tight!:) And dont think i dont know what tight money is! Im buying my home and have the bad habit of liking to eat occasionally, and my total income is 1100/M as im retired. My music is as important to me as my home and ive had this sys with Jordans for 5 years and have heard no reason to change . I havent spent a dime on speakers for my main sys in those 5 years . Sorry if this sounds like a rant , but ive learned my lessons the long hard expensive way :) |
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| MJK |
| I have RS, Fostex, and Lowther in my collection of full range driver. The Fostex is much better then the RS, the Lowther is a significant step above the Fostex. You get what you pay for with these drivers and the effort you put into the design of the enclosure and any compensation circuit. No short cuts or to good to be true deals. Buy the best you can afford and design a good enclosure and filter if required. |
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| Timn8ter |
Keep an eye on the Buy & Sell forum on Fullrangedriver.com
http://fullrangedriver.com/tiki-vie...m.php?forumId=4
There's nothing there at this moment but RS drivers show up there quite often. I picked up 4 new in-the-box Fostex FE-103E from that site at a nice discount. Also check e-bay and Planet10 Hi Fi. I know that Dave ships worldwide. You can e-mail him and ask for more details.
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/
I agree with the recommendations from Thor and MJK concerning RS, Fostex, Jordan and Lowther but I think you'll be happy with whichever you choose. The Jordan JX92S may be the best bang-for-the-buck full ranger out there even though it's now US$135. |
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| Nelson Pass |
Don't overlook the Pioneer full range, which I think beats out
the Radio Shack, and only costs about $20.
But for a few bucks more you can step up to a Fostex FE166E
or FE206E (both with the whizzer) and do much better yet. |
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| Jimmy154 |
www.solen.ca is in Canada. They have very afforable shipping, cheaper then when I get something shipped inside US a lot of times. Have to ask them for prices on products and shipping. Also drivers might be more expensive than at madisound.com not sure.
Hey, you guys ever try putting cross-overs in your fullrange drivers, just to see how different they sound? You know one would be a tweeter and one a woofer and x-over would be in the 2 KHz to 4 Khz range. Maybe you'll like them better this way :D |
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| gmilitano |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nelson Pass
Don't overlook the Pioneer full range, which I think beats out
the Radio Shack, and only costs about $20.
But for a few bucks more you can step up to a Fostex FE166E
or FE206E (both with the whizzer) and do much better yet. |
Hi Nelson,
Which Pioneer driver are you refering too and where is it available?
TIA,
GM. |
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| luigi |
Hi Falcott
FWIW, Fostex are available here (in New Zealand). You can get em via Syntec, an Aussie company with a satellite office in Auckland. I just got some FT17H's from them and am blown away with their quality.
To get an idea of price, go to Madisound and check out their prices, then double them (for NZ dollar prices).
OK, so the Fostex are not Rat Shack priced drivers but there's a whole mess of diferent drivers from inexpensive-ish to Ferrari-priced, if you get my drift.
Carry on
Luigi |
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| falcott |
| quote: | Originally posted by THOR
well thats a myth IMHO |
Well, I did start with "Once upon a time..." :angel: :D
The thing I object to is paying 4-figures for a single driver when I believe I can get something *almost* as good in the low 3's. :clown: Some people on the Single Driver site do actually rave about that R.S. 40-1354a auto speaker. Other than that, I can't comment, since I have never heard them; nor a Lowther, if it comes to that. Anyway, your rant was quite un-abnoxious Thor! I appreciate it when people who have learned the hard and expensive way pass along a little of their wisdom. I hope my path will be less hard and expensive!
Thanks everyone else too for the input.
And Luigi, for the NZ lead, cheers!
:)
All I have to decide now is whether I am going to build the Voigts straight or folded. Six foot towers might appear a bit daunting in a smallish room. Other than that, I'm guessing they might sound slightly better than folded pipes... |
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| Nuuk |
We all want the best sound and would love to be able to buy the very best drivers and try them all.
However, it is a big risk to try a new speaker design and buy the best drivers straight off. I guessed that Falcott wants to try his Voigt pipes without going into debt for the next ten years and I think in those circumstances, trying a 'budget' driver (like the one I suggersted, or the Pioneer that Nelson put up) is fully justified. If you then like what you hear, it is time to decide if you want to commit to a big-buck driver. ;) |
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| falcott |
Thanks Nuuk; well put.
:) |
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| Timn8ter |
| quote: | | All I have to decide now is whether I am going to build the Voigts straight or folded. Six foot towers might appear a bit daunting in a smallish room. Other than that, I'm guessing they might sound slightly better than folded pipes... |
In my experience and that of others there is no apparent performance difference between a Voigt and a folded pipe of the same parameters, although I do like the look of the Cain & Cain Abby |
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| falcott |
Thanks Timn8ter.
I should really start a new thread for this question, or actually do a search, (just too busy! :xeye: ) but I have just found a spreadsheet on the web for calculating Pipe dimensions. I haven't had a close look at it, but I am interested in using the Fostex FE166E or FE206E drivers. What sort of figures do I have to enter into this spreadsheet to get the appropriate dimensions? Can anyone tell me, or should I just sit down and fiddle with the calcs for a while until it seems obvious? :confused:
;) |
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| gmilitano |
| quote: | Originally posted by falcott
Thanks Timn8ter.
I should really start a new thread for this question, or actually do a search, (just too busy! :xeye: ) but I have just found a spreadsheet on the web for calculating Pipe dimensions. I haven't had a close look at it, but I am interested in using the Fostex FE166E or FE206E drivers. What sort of figures do I have to enter into this spreadsheet to get the appropriate dimensions? Can anyone tell me, or should I just sit down and fiddle with the calcs for a while until it seems obvious? :confused:
;) |
The FE206E (and 208E) has already been designed.
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project05/Project05.html
Several people have built and the results seem favorable. The driver is a little bright without a BSC. All the details required on on that website.
Does anyone have any comments with regards to bracing this ML TL?
Cheers,
GM. |
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| THOR |
| you will be delighted with either of these fostex:) they will bring you joyfull music! :) |
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| navin |
| what do you guys consider fullrange? 100-20k at 90db min acorss the entire range? |
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| falcott |
Thanks for the link, but I was thinking of building Voigt Pipes. Can anyone provide dimensions & details about using the FE206E with them? |
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| rcavictim |
| quote: | Originally posted by navin
what do you guys consider fullrange? 100-20k at 90db min acorss the entire range? |
For a small driver ~80-100 to 15K qualifies in my book. The sensitivity has nothing to do with range but will affect distortion and definitely matters if the goal is a single driver speaker to run off a low power tube amp. For this application I like to see better than 95 dB.
A larger 12" FR would not be FR to me if it didn't go down to 40 Hz. |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | A larger 12" FR would not be FR to me if it didn't go down to 40 Hz. |
Don't try one on an open baffle then! ;) |
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| navin |
| quote: | Originally posted by rcavictim
For a small driver ~80-100 to 15K qualifies in my book.... For this application I like to see better than 95 dB....A larger 12" FR would not be FR to me if it didn't go down to 40 Hz. |
so this really means mostly 4" or larger drivers. the smaller "widerange" drivers I know cant do 95db at 100hz. are not larger drivers prone to beaming? |
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| polsol |
Just my tuppence worth but what ever happened to the Altai drive units as were used in the Kappellmeister DIY loudspeaker? Are they still available or, more to the point, were they any good?
Regards, |
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| Timn8ter |
| quote: | | I have just found a spreadsheet on the web for calculating Pipe dimensions. |
Please be aware that the Excel spreadsheet based on Weems criteria is not accurate. You'll get much better results from learning to use MJK's MathCAD worksheet. |
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| Nelson Pass |
| quote: | Originally posted by gmilitano
Which Pioneer driver are you refering too and where is it available? |
Taht would be the BU20FU20-51F, and it's available from
Parts express, although you can also check MCM and Madisound.
More information is available on the article on www.firstwatt.com |
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| rcavictim |
| quote: | Originally posted by navin
so this really means mostly 4" or larger drivers. the smaller "widerange" drivers I know cant do 95db at 100hz. are not larger drivers prone to beaming? |
Drivers that can do 95 dB at below 100 Hz are very hard to find I think. The output on most drivers drops like a stone below about 150-200Hz. The manufacturers use 'averaged SPL' at 1w/1m between the range limits to get a better sensitivity specification that can be misleading when expecting good output at the lowest octaves IME.
HF beaming is bad on some large drivers and makes them unsuitable for FR operation. Besides beaming is the doppler distortion issue of the bass moving the HF source towards and away from the listener. Some of the drivers in 12" size from makers like EV or Jensen from the Golden Age in the 50's/60's I have had a chance to play with offer high efficiency and are claimed to be full range. They do not have a significant beaming problem and the doppler is also acceptably low. Wizzer cones were often employed and I think cone profiles and stiffness were used to advantage as well. I wish the best of these vintage FR speakers with efficiencies in the high 90's were being manufactured today. They can be just the thing for low power tube amp applications, the reason they were designed some 50 years ago.
I've found commercial sound reinforcement drivers tend to have higher sensitivity specs but don't tend to go low enough for home use in the 12" and 15" sizes. An Fs of 55 Hz on a 15" driver is not good for nice low bass. There are of course exceptions. |
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| Bricolo |
| you can't have a very light cone and a low Fs ;) |
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| johninCR |
RCA,
While you're forming the manufacturers' wish list for high efficiency, full range drivers, please tell them to include some with higher Qts. FR drivers suitable for OB is a very short list indeed. I know of only the Pioneer BU20 and the Supravox, and the Pioneer doesn't have a high enough sensitivity. Are there any other good ones to add to the list? |
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| Variac |
| quote: | | An Fs of 55 Hz on a 15" driver is not good for nice low bass. There are of course exceptions. |
Yup , there are quite a few that go down to around 40hz.
That really does work pretty well for home audio |
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| Swedish Chef |
| quote: | | Yup , there are quite a few that go down to around 40hz. |
JBL 2235 and 2215 comes to mind. Both are pretty hard to beat in the LF department. 2205/2225/2226 will not go that deep but offer awesome midbass and are plenty enough for all but the most demanding home systems IMO.
/Magnus |
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| johninCR |
Magnus,
Does JBL make any wide range or full range drivers that are available to DIYers? |
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| MIKET |
The Eminence BETA 12 LT, here are the specs.
Nominal Basket Diameter 12", 304.8mm
Impedance 8 ohms
Power Rating 225Wrms
Resonance 45Hz
Usable Frequency Range 45Hz - 8kHz
Sensitivity 99dB
Thiele-Small Parameters
Resonant Frequency (fs)45Hz
Impedance (Re)7.37 ohms
Coil Inductance (Le)0.83mH
Electromagnetic Q (Qes)0.55
Mechanical Q (Qms)6.44
Total Q (Qts)0.51
I have used this driver in a 5 cu ft. enclosure with a super tweeter FT17H crossed over at 9Khz, sound good in a large room, doesn't work well in a small room. |
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| rcavictim |
| quote: | Originally posted by MIKET
The Eminence BETA 12 LT, here are the specs.
Nominal Basket Diameter 12", 304.8mm
Impedance 8 ohms
Power Rating 225Wrms
Resonance 45Hz
Usable Frequency Range 45Hz - 8kHz
Sensitivity 99dB
Thiele-Small Parameters
Resonant Frequency (fs)45Hz
Impedance (Re)7.37 ohms
Coil Inductance (Le)0.83mH
Electromagnetic Q (Qes)0.55
Mechanical Q (Qms)6.44
Total Q (Qts)0.51
I have used this driver in a 5 cu ft. enclosure with a super tweeter FT17H crossed over at 9Khz, sound good in a large room, doesn't work well in a small room. |
Yes Miket,
This is one of the exceptions i could not think of that I'd really like to try. I think this is the one Mike Hammer uses in his popular Hammer Dynamics custom. |
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| JVA |
Falcott
creative sound salutions which is headquartered in the same town I live,has an up and coming 4 inch which can be used fullrange or in linearrays.
I heard these drivers in a small vented Griffith type closure and sounded exl.
should be out soon. |
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| MIKET |
Price is reasonable for the Beta 12 LT.
Parts Express has them for a good price.
I would recomend a box made with at least 1 1/4" thick walls and lots of bracing.
The driver can move a lot of air and that can make cabinet design a bit fussy.
I belive a TL would work nice with this driver. |
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| navin |
well the 871 as well as other W3 and W4 TBs are also what i am looking at along with the JX92, FF85/125, FE103/107, FX120 and 108 Sigma - in short any fullrange under $130 (ref. JX92) that can fit in a 12 liter (about 0.5 cu. ft) box. |
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| Swedish Chef |
| quote: | | Does JBL make any wide range or full range drivers that are available to DIYers? |
Yes and no depending on how you define "wide range". Their 2'' compression drivers like the 2446 could be operated between 800 Hz - 20 kHz. But you will have to use top-octave compensation for this and personally I would use a supertweeter like the 2405 or 2402 with any 2'' driver.
And their (now obsolete) 2118 8'' midrange can be used between 80-7000 Hz although I would certainly not operate it that high.
Take a look at http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/componts.htm for their line of (IMO awesome) drivers.
To be perfectly honest I can not see why anyone would want to use a large "full range" driver like a 12''. It would beam like mad and breakup distortion up high would be quite nasty. Transient response would be close to non-existent. Although I am by no means a single-driver fan I can see the beauty and simplicity of a single Fostex 4'' driver in a little box for a nice small system. But a single 12'' or 15''? No way! :rolleyes:
Cheers
/Magnus |
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| Timn8ter |
| quote: | | for a few bucks more you can step up to a Fostex FE166E |
This may be the best low-budget option. |
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| Variac |
Those JBL 12 " coax drivers are interesting. Wonder how they sound... The graphs don't look so great, but maybe they are just being more honest than most. (OK, they use a crossover so maybe they don't qualify as full range)- wonder what they cost
and how they sound vis vis the 8" Radians w/ horns at $300 ea. |
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| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by Swedish Chef
Their 2'' compression drivers like the 2446 could be operated between 800 Hz - 20 kHz. But you will have to use top-octave compensation for this and personally I would use a supertweeter like the 2405 or 2402 with any 2'' driver. |
I agree about using a S/T above a 2" CD. Roll a 2445/2446 off gently at about 7-8k and you'll be happier. The response does technically go high, but it sounds really bad. Otherwise it's a great driver for home use or PA. |
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| Timn8ter |
| quote: | Originally posted by Variac
Those JBL 12 " coax drivers are interesting. Wonder how they sound... The graphs don't look so great, but maybe they are just being more honest than most. (OK, they use a crossover so maybe they don't qualify as full range)- wonder what they cost
and how they sound vis vis the 8" Radians w/ horns at $300 ea. |
Coax is an option. Many rave about SuperHammer12. There are also offerings from Eminence and Adire Audio. |
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| Variac |
I would put my money on the Radians- but it's a lot of money!!:(
The JBL's and 8" Radians are made for ceiling installation by pro sound installers. That's not too impressive, but what we usually hear with the feeble distorted muzac aren't using the higher quality drivers such as these. Radian makes 12" and 15" coax's too
Kuei recommends the best Seas coax drivers, but they are low efficiency - not based on pro gear so probably aren't best for low power....only about $130ea
Selenium makes 12 & 15" coax. PHL makes one with a dome tweeter but I heard that they aren't anything special. If pAudio or Beyma make some they might be well worth looking into- some of their horn drivers are supposed to be quite good. The trouble with pro gear is that there are so many manufacturers......... |
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| falcott |
Continuing the quest for a full range driver...
I have got rather excited about trying Bert Doppenberg's TQWP speakers using 2x 4-inch drivers:
http://pmillett.addr.com/tqwp.htm
I am thinking of using Fostex FE103E or 107E for the front drivers.
Two questions:
a) Their specifications are *almost* identical, but is there an advantage of one over the other in this design?
b) Can anyone suggest a 4" suitable bass driver for the rear unit? Or perhaps even better, what specifications should I be looking at to select one for myself?
Cheers! :)
As an afterthought, I believe there is a new Tangband 4" driver on the market. Can anyone comment on their experience with it? |
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| falcott |
Thanks very much for the modesty, Tim, if your reported results are produced by such modesty! :D
I would really like to try those bipolar Voigts.
I would also like to try those RS 40-1197 drivers too. Any idea how I could score a set of 4?
Cheers! |
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| Timn8ter |
You can try asking over at Full Range Driver or substitute the Fostex FE-103E (which usually costs more unfortunately). I understand that Radio Shack of Canada is supposed to be stocking the 40-1197.
Bipole Voigt Pipe |
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| falcott |
Thanks Tim. I've put a post there. :up: |
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