| Celestra-rules |
I wanted to see if someone had real world experience and can rank the top ten amps they have actually tried. For example Brax, Sinfoni, Celestra, Steg, Audison, Arc Audio, Mac, Linear Power, Genesis and TRU Technology...the real high end.
It does not make sense these days to waste your time putting an average system in a car, do it once and do it right.
Also do you prefer regulated vs. non regulated |
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| clayton |
| The only amp I have used out of the ones you listed is Linear Power. I have nothing but praise for these amps. They have some of the cleanest power I have heard. The cost is a little more than average but worth it. |
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| Celestra-rules |
| I have to agree with you that for the money LP is really an amplifier company that gets over looked much too often. I guess it looks like there isn't too much experience on the high end of things out here. |
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| minitruck_freq |
| i have a pair of Arcs (4050cxl and 2500cxl) waiting to go in my truck. i also have a Tru T-4.65. havent used them yet but im looking forward to it. :D |
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| alaskanaudio |
My vote for the best high end car audio amplifier is for the Audison brand. Excellent construction and very well designed for car audio use. Protected against overcurrent conditions. As I recall these are made by and Italian company.
My experiance with this brand ofcourse is about eight years old so perhaps the current versions are somewhat different then those I had experiance with. I still have one of these older amplifiers collecting dust in a closet and have circuit diagrams of the older generation of Audison amplifers somewhere. |
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| rkc7 |
I use a USamps USA-400 for my sub, which it sounds really good. From what I've heard from other places these are also high end amplifiers. The specs on mine are as follows:
USA-400 and USA-400X
Two Channel Class AB Amplifier
Total Power Output: 400 Watts RMS
THD at Rated Power: <0.006%
Stereo Separation: >98dB
Signal/Noise Ratio: 102dBA
Frequency Response: 5Hz-50KHz
Fuse Rating: 50 Amps
You can check their line at www.USamps.com |
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| Paradise_Ice |
I though Xtant was a high end brand in America?
Is Tru respected as audiphile amplifiers?
In the UK we only have Genesis and there good but a little cold sounding.
Never had the Arcs or Audisons in the UK. |
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| Celestra-rules |
Wow I am so gld some more people replied I was afraid car audio was going by the way side. Thank you I hope to hear from more of you as I think car audio will to to cheap and/or high end.
My experience so far is as so:
US amps very good for the money, not the best but higher than your average...goo stuff.
Audison are excellent but not as a audiophile amp, good but a little on the gritty side.
Arc no experience so please post on here if you can make the Arc vs. Tru comparison I have heard super super things abnout both of those amps....PLEASE LETS HERE FROM MORE OF YOU...THANK YOU!!!!!!!! |
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| owdi |
I used to have my front stage biamped by a pair of Zapco Z100 amplifiers. Great amps, never broke a sweat since they are stable down to .5 ohms stereo (I had them at 2 ohms).
Dan |
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| tenderland |
I am using some soundstream amps now i have a class A 3.0 on the tweets and a D100II for the mids . They are powerfull and clean. I am thinking of trying a different amp for the tweets(I have QSD 216 quarts and i am still trying to dial in the tweets)
I was kicking around the idea of using linear power
Jeff |
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| zagisrule! |
IMHO the best car amps I have ever heard are far and away the Synopsis Audio DX2X50's I have in my car. I will admit that I have never heard any true "high-end" amps other than an Audison before, most are the cheap Fosgates, Alpines, etc.
Anyway, the Synopsis amps were designed by a good friend of mine. He took the initiative of producing a large quantity of amps for sale, but he has since been "screwed" by the car audio industry and has resigned from the business. I have kind of taken up where he let off, I am selling a few amps here and there. I have the production lot available to sell if anyone here is interested.
Specs are: 2 channels of 50W of very clean musical power into 8 ohms. Can drive as low of load as 2 ohms without problem, meaning 200W or so out. When running in bridged mode it really puts out the power. The amp has no compromises in design to make it cheap, so everything is the best. All op-amps in the crossover and front-end are high-end Analog Devices components, complimentary pairs of lateral mode MOSFET's are used as the output stage, Dale wirewounds, adjustable bias current, all discrete power amp portion, low-impedance supply filtering (Panasonic FC's), regulated power supplies, true over-current protection, thermal overload protection, DC protection and more. Great design that I have in my car right now...it is like a home hi-fi amp with SMPS and crossovers to fit in a car. The case is really nice extruded amuminum with nice endplates labeling all controls, including LP, HP, AP switch, mono-stereo filter switch, HP freq, LP freq, Q factor, boost (+18db), etc.
-Matt |
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| tsmith1315 |
My experience is 10 years out of date. At that time, the Zapco System 151/200A was the cleanest, quietest, most natural sounding amp I had heard. And it should have been at $4 per watt.
Other notable models were Linear Power 2002, Soundstream D200II and ClassA 50, and a couple of the Autotek 7xxx BTS amps.
A very notable exception was Alphasonik's (yep) PMA 2100. Not the best of the best, but sounded so nice your install would likely mask the difference between it and other that would cost 2-3x the price. I used one myself for a couple of years that *sounded* better than RF's legendary Power 650's and Power 300's that a couple other guys in the same shop used. Their installations just didn't showcase SQ.
Which brings up an ambiguous point...
It's difficult to compare amps without swapping one for another in a given installation. Speaker installation has a profound affect on a car system. System/gain/crossover tuning has a very profound effect on a car system. You really can't A/B anything very well in a sound room, and you can't do it at all from one car to another without knowing a lot about how the systems are set up and adjusted.
It's also difficult to compare brands, as performance changes from one model to another within any given line. Performance can change from one year to the next within a given model with evolution of design. The really top-notch companies do tend to be more consistent with top-notch products, but often a single model really stands out.
The only way to figure out which models stand out is to install lots of amplifiers on a regular basis, and use consistent methods to install, tune, and judge them.
And of course, this post is bordering on off-topic because I haven't used any of what's made now.
Tim |
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| purplepeople |
I wonder... anybody ever compare a car amp to their hifi amp by bringing it into the house and A/B using the audiophile speakers?
:)ensen. |
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| sma |
i use audison at my car for drive the custom Seas excel woofer + scanspeak R2904/7000 tweeter.nice audiophile amp.but need little modification for get the best amp.
audison VRX is use class A driver module,Sanken transistor.I change the capacitor use panasonic FC at amp supply and preamp supply.and little bias the transistor into class A/B.
this way improve more open sound,solid midrange and very deep bass.I think now only genesis,tru technology and audison.still make car audiophile amplifier.
Brax is flat and too much high,very germany sound.
happy listening.:) |
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| Celestra-rules |
| Also you must try Celestra, Sinfoni and Linear Power those are the BEST I have ever ever heard. I like them better than the Audison as the Audison tends to get a little harsh on the high end and the sound stage is two dimensional. |
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| DJNUBZ |
| I have installed many different amps and some of the best I have heard are JL slash series amps. I will say a great install will get you much better sound in a car then what amp you coose at some point. |
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| bkoopman |
| Out of the amps (probably between 2000 and 3000) that I've tested, the best one is definitely the McIntosh MC4000M. It's rated to make less than .005% THD+N from .5w to full power, 20Hz - 20kHz; it met those specs easily. After that, my next favorite amp was a McIntosh MC427, followed by the Zapco Studio Series, and after that the old Alpine V12 line (MRV-352, MRV-1505, etc). Great stuff. |
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| linea168 |
fo me ,
celestra VA series is the best amp,
I ever compare it with simphoni, genesis, and phass,
still CELESTRA more musical sound
:smash: |
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| longblock454 |
| I may be laughed right out of here, but JBL amps have always worked great for me! |
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| Jean |
| Zapco, Phoenix Gold TI series and Brax/HElix ;) |
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| Paradise_Ice |
| quote: | Originally posted by longblock454
I may be laughed right out of here, but JBL amps have always worked great for me! |
You can just say JBL have worked great for you,
Which JBL amplifiers atre you talking about now?
The only ones that have any real heart are the GTS of some 10 years ago, the modern ones sound cold and weak, on the Crown tweaked models have some bounce am told, i hunt for the old GTS amplifiers on Ebay, so dont bid against me ok :)
As for Genesis, they are nice and well made but quite clinical, if you like that shoot, but i like warm full sounds like the Tru Tech amplifiers. |
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| johnkramer |
they're my only expreience with good car audio but in 1998 I did a setup with Xtant. 4180C and a bridged 2100B for subs.
Other than having to expose the circuit boards during installation (not good imo as a single strand of stray copper from a stripped wire could spell ruin if it fell to a bad place). other than that, they were completely reliable, powerful, quite and sounded good enough for me. |
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| tenderland |
I am running some old Soundstream now (d100 II , class A 3.0)
They seem harsh at times .
They are OK but I am itching to buy a Mac . |
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| Puggie |
I'm currently using the US Amps Tube amps which I'm very impressed with, warmth and an organic character to them (ok I sound like an audiophile but they sounded more alive to me) there solid state models are very good too. previous to this I have run lots of stuff but this is the better of it:
Xtant X603 (my first really good amp) and was very impressed, very lively with plenty of clout, nice onboard crossovers and front end too, good all in one amp solution, if I wanted a one box amp for a simple system I would consider one again.
Phase Linear Modular, regulated modular system one box for the PSU and as many 4 channel slave amps as you can power depending on impedance. nice amp, very flexible, the fans were noisey and it never failed me, always sounded good but never astounding. 0-180Degree variable phase controls and decent variable crossovers were nice.
Genesis series 3, 5 channel. good amp, very nicely made but as Paradise ICE says very accurate but bordering on clinical. you could probably run over it and it would still work fine.
Sinfoni, nice enough sounding, possibly over simple design IMHO, build quality was a little iffy IMHO, there is better out there for the money, wouldn't buy one.
Old JBL black square knobbley block amps. Not really high end but they are great for what you pay, one of those amps which was truely a step above the rest of the competition.
Cheapie 4 channel alpine V12. one of my first amps, moded the main power rails to the transistors with an extra 400,000uF of smallish capacitors,had to raise the amp as the hung out of the base but my god it made a difference to the sound :) |
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| DJNUBZ |
| puggie any way you could do a how to on that alpine mod. I know there are a lot of people who would be intrested in it. |
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| Paradise_Ice |
| quote: | Originally posted by Puggie
I'm currently using the US Amps Tube amps which I'm very impressed with, warmth and an organic character to them (ok I sound like an audiophile but they sounded more alive to me)
Genesis series 3, 5 channel. good amp, very nicely made but as Paradise ICE says very accurate but bordering on clinical. you could probably run over it and it would still work fine.
Sinfoni, nice enough sounding, possibly over simple design IMHO, build quality was a little iffy IMHO, there is better out there for the money, wouldn't buy one.
Cheapie 4 channel alpine V12. one of my first amps, moded the main power rails to the transistors with an extra 400,000uF of smallish capacitors,had to raise the amp as the hung out of the base but my god it made a difference to the sound :) |
Hi Bill :) AKA Puggie
I didnt know you are on this forum as well.
You are spot on with your views on car amps,
You should post a thread on moding a Alpine V12, it will not make it the best sounding amplifier but people love to tweak and i cant blame them at all.
:smash: we all love to tweak now dont we:D |
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| arnach |
McIntosh MC440M.. hands down for me.. 4 channels x 50 for the fronts and 2 for the subs, with focals run in parallel each side, rear treble -4db, i'm getting 200 wats into 2 ohms per channel, and 2.5 ohms each channel of 100w into 4 for 4 5ohm subs.
SOUNDS LIKE HEAVEN. And the blue meters are cool. Currently looking for a really efficent class D amp for a 11" sub because my charging system is near running out of juice. |
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| scottjasonm |
Late 80's PPI amplifiers were very good in my opinion. I had (and still have) a couple of PPI-2150AM's (150x2 4ohms) that were my favorite. Also had a couple PPI-2300AM (300x2) monsters - they were actually a dual monoblocks - 2 PPI-2125's in 1 big chassis.
I had many different models of the late 80's Linear Power also.
1752/2002/2202's very good. Maybe not as good as they are made out to be though. |
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| RAAMaudio |
MTX, PPI, Zapco, McIntosh and then Arc Audio for the last 3 years or so. Dang fine gear, true car audio enthusiasts, probably best support in the industry. All the amps and other new and exciting products are designed by Robert Zeff, original founder of Zapco.
Anybody going to CES? Stop by the Arc Audio booth and say high, I will be hanging out with my buddies there.
Here is a link to my best sounding install ever, not built to be pretty, built to work and well it did:)
RAAMmat Tacoma
Just click on the Tacoma or on the Mobile Entertainment pic on the bottom left corner:)
Rick |
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| djQUAN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Puggie
Cheapie 4 channel alpine V12. one of my first amps, moded the main power rails to the transistors with an extra 400,000uF of smallish capacitors,had to raise the amp as the hung out of the base but my god it made a difference to the sound :) |
is this the same amp? it's V12 but I guess it's a counterfeit.
www.djquan.angelcities.com/ride.html
but it does well for the subs. the other amp is already replaced. I replaced it with a DIY two channel P3A for the fronts. real nice to the ears.
;) |
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| SupraGuy |
djQUAN: Judging from the heatsink, I think that's a 1997 model. I have a pair of 1995 model V12s in my car. These sound great, IMO. Later Alpine V12s weren't quite as good, I think. Mine are quite underrated. Nominally they're rated at 40WX4 and 30WX4. (50WX4 and 40WX4 at 14.4VDC input) When I had a chance to measure the actual output, the 40WX4 amp was putting out a very clean 68WX4 with <0.05%THD at 12V input, and the 30WX4 amp was putting out 46WX4. This beat the published specifications in all regards.
Now, I wouldn't call the amps "cheapies" as I feel that I paid a reasonable price for good amplifiers. The smaller one I got at a good deal, because I bought it off of the display board at the end of the model year. |
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| Puggie |
| The Alpine I had was the 307 model 4channel. I can't remember exactly what I did but basically it was connecting a lot of smallish value caps between the power rails (High voltage ones after the PSU) and earth. The caps were what I could 'borrow' from university at the time and I fabricated 'riser rails' from seriously thick solid copper wire/bar and soldered the caps accross these. They hung out of the bottom of the amp, very ugly but quite effective, the sound became noticably more punchy and dynamic. |
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| jp88 |
| I have to put in a plug for the jl audio slash series I got a 300/4 and its a great sounding amp. Ive also seen a comparison done between the jl and a tru and suprisingly the jl did quite well especialy considering the price diferential between the two |
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| djQUAN |
| quote: | Originally posted by SupraGuy
djQUAN: Judging from the heatsink, I think that's a 1997 model. I have a pair of 1995 model V12s in my car. These sound great, IMO. Later Alpine V12s weren't quite as good, I think. Mine are quite underrated. Nominally they're rated at 40WX4 and 30WX4. (50WX4 and 40WX4 at 14.4VDC input) When I had a chance to measure the actual output, the 40WX4 amp was putting out a very clean 68WX4 with <0.05%THD at 12V input, and the 30WX4 amp was putting out 46WX4. This beat the published specifications in all regards.
Now, I wouldn't call the amps "cheapies" as I feel that I paid a reasonable price for good amplifiers. The smaller one I got at a good deal, because I bought it off of the display board at the end of the model year. |
well, mine got right on with the rated specs after I measured them (85W RMS x4), and my V12 got Sanken output stages.
:D other components are of acceptable quality. (TL074, carbon resistors, film caps and sealed alps pots)
bought them two years ago as a brand new unit for about US$84 |
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| 2cr4ck |
I've tried couple brands, Rockford (DSM), PPI (Art series), Adcom, Zapco.
My best amp Is Adcom, I used GFA4702 |
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| stanleylin |
| Monolithic 1002, 50Wx2 ,is the best amp i have . |
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| tobias_svensk |
The one I really like is the Orion HCCA 225 Digital Reference.
The new MTX thunder amps looks nice to in my opinion (fell in love after heard the MTX thunder 9500 12" with a thunder amp) |
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| JCoffey |
| Butler Tube Drivers paired with Dynaudio MK240II's up front and a P.E. Titanic 10" sub in a JL Stealthbox. I still need to send B.K. Butler one of them to fix a problem with it, but the sound has always been music to my ears......... |
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| RAAMaudio |
Lot's of great gear being mentioned here:)
FYI, Arc Audio is bringing out a new Robert Zeff designed high end amp, can't say much about it yet except the line will be exceptionally good, resonable in cost, best parts available, they look great too;)
I will be running them just as soon as they are out and let you guys know what I think about them.
Rick |
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| hienrich |
hi guys
if you have schemes for this amps or any
may share them also for me.
regards,
hienrich |
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| drews |
Hi,
the best amply car is Abola, better than monolithic, Phoenix Gold ecc ecc. It is very good also in hi-fi home. |
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| Gaucho |
I vote for Nakamichi as the best. I replaced my Alpine with a PA502 and it was a big improvement. I also compared the Nakamichi to a Clarion amp, the Nak was again far superior. Linear Power have excellent sonics too but some friends have had problems with the turn-on relays.
I would like to try a Gain Clone based car amp.:smash: |
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| TO-3 |
| quote: | Originally posted by JCoffey
Butler Tube Drivers paired with Dynaudio MK240II's up front and a P.E. Titanic 10" sub in a JL Stealthbox. I still need to send B.K. Butler one of them to fix a problem with it, but the sound has always been music to my ears......... |
Which TD are you having problems with? He told you he doesn't repair the PPI TD's. |
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| Evilsizer |
| I would say Altec Lansing but they no longer make amps. I some for when i get my 76 duster restored but have hooked them up to some home speakers. They are crisp and clean sounding. I had them powered by some 12v Batteries. I have a ALA200 100wattsx2 @4ohms ,120watts @2ohms. Also a ALA40 20wattsx2@4ohms (this is not 2ohm stable). Even the ALA40 sounds just like the ALA200 with out the lowend punch. |
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| jackinnj |
| any car amp sounds better if you have an eight-cylinder engine, preferably with tuned headers -- |
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| tsmith1315 |
Evilsizer mentioned:
| quote: | | I would say Altec Lansing but they no longer make amps |
I never had the pleasure of auditioning the Altec amps. I have heard through very discriminating sources that their early 90's amps were good.
and Gaucho said:| quote: | | I would like to try a Gain Clone based car amp. |
This has been proposed repeatedly in this forum. The major issue is power supply. In the early days of car audio, there were 3 basic power amp designs:
1) Filtered battery voltage and high current IC's. Good for about 15W per channel, and a few sounded pretty dang good. Most sounded like ****. The Blaupunkt BQB-80 was built in several versions, but the aftermarket version was a very nice sounding amp if you had the right equipment to complement it. IIRC, it used TDA-xxxx chips. There's one down in the basement somewhere, I'd be happy to investigate further if anyone is interested.
2) Car audio version of the Gain Clone -SMPS and power amp IC's. Again, most sounded like ****, but there were a couple of notable exceptions, one was the A/D/S Power Plate 120 using STK power paks. The Sanyo P-6100 and Blaupunkt BPA-430 (Used STK-461's) were decent considering they were designed in the late 70's, but were noisy.
Given the complexity of building your own high-current SMPS, I can't fathom why it wouldn't be worthwhile to go ahead and DIY a discrete audio amp as well. There are plenty of successful designs readily available.
3) SMPS and discrete power amp, which turned out to be the successful format in the long run.
One notable variation to (1) is the factory supplied Bose systems. They use/used battery voltage and low-impedance speakers (as low as one-half ohm) to extract maximum power without the added expense of a SMPS. IIRC, discrete audio sections were typically employed to handle the current. Amplifiers were placed at the speaker to effectively couple such low impedance loads, and the results were good considering the **** they used for speakers.
I often wonder why this inexpensive approach isn't given more thought in the DIY forum... Maybe I'll give it a try.
Tim |
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| Evilsizer |
| quote: | Originally posted by tsmith1315
I never had the pleasure of auditioning the Altec amps. I have heard through very discriminating sources that their early 90's amps were good.
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I have 3 of the ALA200's all from ebay for around $45 each. One of them was a display that still had the retail tag on it for $299. This amp is quite big for just 2ch 12.5inx7inx2in. |
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| jacco vermeulen |
| quote: | Originally posted by jackinnj
any car amp sounds better if you have an eight-cylinder engine, preferably with tuned headers -- |
Any CD sounds like an orchestra through the 8-channel class A amps in my Chevy Van when the V8 cover is removed .
Tuned Headers,Mmm ?
Time to give John Lingenfelter a call ! |
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| JCoffey |
| quote: | Originally posted by TO-3
Which TD are you having problems with? He told you he doesn't repair the PPI TD's. |
Yes yes I know. Its one of the Phaze Audio ones. I had his email at one point where he contacted me and said he'd repair it, but I lost it. It's still sitting on a shelf collecting dust. :( |
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| TO-3 |
| quote: | Originally posted by JCoffey
Yes yes I know. Its one of the Phaze Audio ones. I had his email at one point where he contacted me and said he'd repair it, but I lost it. It's still sitting on a shelf collecting dust. :( |
I'd offer to fix it, but I am moving next week. If you want, you can PM me and I can at least help you figure out what's wrong. Or go to www.tubedriver.com. |
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| samsagaz |
| next month ill buy an polk C400.4 amp, ppl told me that they are great... |
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| sr20dem0n |
| I'm currently running a Linear Power 2.2hv on my mids and an Arc Audio 2100cxl on my tweets. I can't really compare them because they're running different speakers, but the LP is a LOT more powerful and it's smaller, it also seems to have a much more rugged build, I would honestly be surprised if anyone could destroy this amp. The Arc is a bit "prettier" with a nice custom gunmetal color, but I love them both. I might sell off the Arc at some point in the future if I find a better choice, but I'll never let go of this LP. |
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| cratz2 |
I've had or heard a fair numbers of products listed (exceptions including Sinfoni, Celestra, Steg). I've also had good experience with Aura (which I currently run - I feel it's better in most respects than the JL 300/4 it replaced). I was also impressed with the durability of an old Autotek 'cheater' amp... It was rated at 22x2, I believe, but stable down to at least 1/2 OHM bridged. Plus, it weighed about 15 lbs.
I was really sold on the old Phaze Audio Butler products but I think if I were to do a higher end install right now, I'd probably use MacIntosh amps. |
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| drews |
| How is possible nobody knows Abola's ampli? |
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| samsagaz |
| noone know polk? |
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| DJNUBZ |
| I know polk but I am not fond of their amps. |
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| lumanauw |
| How about www.rocket-audio.com Do you still believe in handmade power amps or just looking for mass products? |
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| adam_mms |
I have listened to a few high end amps. And according to my opinion each high end amp has characteristic, so it is very difficult for us to judge that brand "A" is the most perfect amp. My list is:
A. FOR AUDIOPHILES who are crazy about mellow music:
1. Phass RE2, Good clarity in high freq also have richness in sound reproduction.
2. Audison Thesis HV Venti, great mellow sound, you can feel the emotion of the vocalist
B. FOR ALL DYNAMIC LOVERS who are crazy about LIVE Music:
1. Tru Technology A Class, The best dynamic amp I have ever heard....very "LIVE" in performance
2. Brax Graphic Edition, Good in dynamic though not as perfect as Tru A Class, but still value of money
Celestra, Sinfoni, Linear Power I never heard those amps by myself yet. ARC Audio I already heard also, though ARC amps are well known for their "dynamic" still we cannot compare them to other high end amps, because ARC amps are much much cheaper then the other high end amps that I have mentioned above. But, ARC amps is very very value for money and worth to buy, especialy for entry level. |
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| lumanauw |
Adam,
Sudah dengar Rocket? Semuanya made in Indonesia. Di JHCC kemarin di diskualifikasi oleh panitia, tapi perolehan pointnya harusnya juara 2 di kelas professional. |
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| TO-3 |
| I'll have to say the PPI 2500F1. I used to build them, fix them, and sound test them(life was rough). Those amps were candy for the ears and eyes............... |
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| Marcello1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by drews
Hi,
the best amply car is Abola, better than monolithic, Phoenix Gold ecc ecc. It is very good also in hi-fi home. |
Sure
:confused: |
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| DCPreamp |
Hi There,
Having worked for Linear Power for two years back in the ‘90s, I can say that when they were installed and set up correctly, driven by a clean, high-voltage-out source, and running great speakers, they sounded very nice. Then again, so do most amps in the same situation. They fell apart with a lack of dampening factor, used a pretty mediocre amplifier topology and along with inefficient bi-polar switching devices, they lacked clarity and punch. They did use very good output devices, nice NE5532 op-amps, and very strong switching toroid cores. I left just after the development of the 8002iq (I hand carried the first prototype 8002iq in a box with a paper handle to the ’91 CES show in Vegas) (by the way, iq stood for one inverted channel and an output relay to “quiet” their horrendous turn on/off pop) and the 2.2HV and a few other models were still in the prototype stage. This was also not too long before their ultimate demise and subsequent sale to a couple of chuckle-heads who write emails like Neanderthals, but that’s a different thread.
Having heard and judged the best-of-the-best in car audio, my absolute hands-down favorite (besides the 700 watt beauty I hand built) car amps are the McIntosh line.
A good high-output, low noise head-unit is very critical to a clean system as is a good installation and very stable, low impedance supply voltage at the amp. Good speakers can make or break a system so easily, and it’s a place where so many decide to save money. Remember, every 3dB of speaker efficiency is twice the sound and a good speaker placed well and driven by a clean amp, can sound incredible. An okay speaker driven by the best amp and set up will only sound okay at best. I’d look for amps with a good dampening factor, good specs, and one that doubles its power with the halving of speaker impedance (indicates a good amp design and good power supply). Next, audition them (car audio shops) with a CD of music you are familiar with and listen for subtleties you’re aware of and any unusual coloring of the sound. With all of that, you should end up with something you’ll like and enjoy for years.
Regards |
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| DJNUBZ |
| DC have you considered designing a DIY kit or plans for a car audio amp that would be on the level of McIntosh or better? |
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| tenderland |
I would like to know if anyone can compare the old Soundstream
calss A to the Mcintosh.
Jeff |
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| lumanauw |
Waw, there are many factory-related guys here. TO-3 (are you working with tubedriver now?) with PPI and DCpreamp with Linear Power.
Anyone from other car-amp companies, like Rockford or Phoenix gold or Xtant? |
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| TO-3 |
| quote: | Originally posted by lumanauw
Waw, there are many factory-related guys here. TO-3 (are you working with tubedriver now?) with PPI and DCpreamp with Linear Power.
Anyone from other car-amp companies, like Rockford or Phoenix gold or Xtant? |
I am not in audio anymore. I did production for over 99% of the original Butler and Phaze Audio Tube Drivers. The rest were done by BK, himself.
Last year, he gave me a demo of his Class A mono-blocks, utilizing 300B tubes :drool: |
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| Stefano |
| Adcom 4X 30W (Nelson Pass design I think) |
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| DCPreamp |
Hi Again,
I’ve worked on a dozen or so Soundstream amps for friends and have never seen anything from them remotely close to McIntosh. I’ve heard some outstanding Soundstream installs and respect their designs. They keep things simple and strong, but kind of lack that certain ‘something’ to make them awesome.
I still have no idea what McIntosh does to make their amps so clean, durable, or bullet-proof, but I know what I hear and they are nice. I’ve looked for a long time for schematics for their car stuff, but haven’t found any. I’m pretty sure they don’t do anything magic, but are most likely just masters of many audio disciplines including topology, component selection, layout, and construction making the amps more a piece of artwork and less like electronics. I have several of their home amplifier schematics and most everything is straightforward and elegant, without corner-cutting or anything marginal.
I wouldn’t want to put together a DIY kit or plans for an amp. I’ve designed them, built them, and repaired literally hundreds of amps, but don’t want to end up stuck defending one particular design or another. Many amplifier manufacturers choose a particular topology and base all of their products around it with limited exceptions. If I designed a bipolar design, someone would hate it and want MOSFETs. I like using op-amps, but many consider them too noisy and “not audiophile enough.” I prefer to build what I like and constantly experiment with different designs. I’m also a quantitative guy and just can’t back (or afford) $10,000 RCA cables, micro-diode soldering, hearing a bug fart at 100 yards, and amps with DC-to-light frequency responses. I remember a great double-blind test we did once back at Linear Power. One amp was a Linear 5002 (250WPC, 24 TO-3 power devices, and quite nice) and the other was a budget Kenwood 60 watt amp. At low and medium volumes, there was no discernable difference and our sales guy actually picked the Kenwood as the better sounding amp. Of course, with the volume up, the Linear kicked *** and the Kenwood distorted.
Instead, I prefer to offer advice and share any technical knowledge with interested individuals. From what I’ve seen so far, it looks like the amplifier portion of car audio amps is pretty well covered in this forum, but the DC-to-DC areas could use some help. I’d be happy to help where I can.
Cheers |
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| DJNUBZ |
| well if you could help the car audio forum with learning more about switching power supplies. I personaly know nothing about them. |
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| DCPreamp |
Switching power supplies are simple in concept and fairly straightforward, but can get very complex and exotic very quickly.
Here are the basic components of a DC-to-DC switching supply:
Input filter – a capacitor that filters the battery DC input.
Controller – typically a single IC that handles switching frequency, output signals, voltage monitoring, reference voltages, and often a variety of other functions.
Switching devices – Usually low voltage (around 60 volts), high-current (often 50 amps or more per device), moderate power (125 watts or so), and fast switching (in the MHz range, although not used that fast).
Switching transformer – often the most difficult part of the whole power supply to locate and implement. Most likely a toroid or double-‘E’ core ferrite part, typical material spec’d for 20KHz to 100KHz operation, and the necessary magnet wire (enameled copper) wire for the primary and secondary.
Secondary rectification – usually fast or ultra-fast recovery diodes in the 200 volt and 15 amp or greater range.
Secondary filter – capacitors that filter the rectified secondary voltage to provide the +/- DC voltages for the amplifier circuitry.
Extras – feedback and optocouplers for closed-loop voltage regulation, temperature sensors for protection, input and secondary filter inductors, snubbers, extra secondary windings, gate-drive circuits, reverse-protection diodes, and lots more depending on the level of complexity or exoticness desired.
General theory of transformer voltage conversion:
A conventional AC home-type 50/60 Hz transformer couples a primary input voltage to a secondary voltage through a magnetic field. The magnetic field is made more efficient and confined by way of an iron core usually made of many thin plates. While the primary and secondary voltages and currents can be changed considerably, the power coupled is constant (minus loss, of course). Transformers are usually represented as a ratio of primary to secondary voltages or turns with the total power coupled represented in a VA (volt-amp) rating. For example, a 1:1 ratio, 110VA transformer may have a 110 volt primary at 1 amp and a 110volt secondary at 0.9 (less than 1 amp due to losses). The same transformer could also (in theory) be used at 11 volts in at 10 amps (still 110VA) with 11 volts out at 9 amps (loss). Though these two examples have different voltages and currents, the VA is constant. A real-world audio power transformer used for home amps might be a 2:1 ratio with a VA rating of 500VA. In this case, it would have a 110VAC primary at about 5 amps and a 55VAC secondary (likely center-tapped – either two secondaries each = ½ 55VAC or one secondary with a wire “tapped” from the center of the windings) yielding +/- 27.5 at about 9 amps or +/- 4.5 amps. The AC secondary would then be rectified, filtered, and used to provide about +/- 39VDC. In all of these examples, I present full current for calculation purposes, but in reality, the currents are only high when the transformer (or what it’s driving) has a load on it. There’s more to it, but this is most of the critical stuff. If you’re planning to experiment with this, do some research and BE CAREFUL with live AC.
Theory of DC-to-DC voltage conversion:
A DC-to-DC converter used in a car amplifier operates on a superficial level much the same way as a home AC transformer. The biggest difference is that the 12 volts DC from a car battery is “switched,” “chopped,” or “modulated” (you pick your favorite term) to form a high-frequency (20+KHz) AC signal that is applied to the primary of the special transformer I described earlier. From there, the same winding ratios and VA ratings apply. So, DC is switched to a high-frequency AC, the AC applied to the transformer primary, the power is coupled and the voltage converted in a magnetic field in the transformer, the secondary produces a high-frequency AC voltage, the AC is rectified to DC, and then filtered to pure (more pure, at least) DC. For a car amp, the transformer ratios are different with a lower primary voltage, but the VA ratings are similar. Let try a 1:5 ratio, 500VA transformer example. 12 volts at 42 amps (assumes a load, of course) is switched to the primary winding. About 60 VAC appears at the secondary and would be rectified and filtered to about +/- 30 VDC (when rectifying and filtering pulsed DC, RMS calculations don’t apply quite the same) at about +/-4.2 amps.
One comment needs to be made about the primary of the DC-to-DC power supply transformer used in virtually all car audio amplifiers is that they run a push-pull topology. What this equates to is a primary with a center-tap or what equates to two primaries. The way most of these are configured is to have the positive of one primary phase connected to the negative phase of the other connected together. This “common” tap is connected directly to +12VDC. From there, the other end of the two phases is connected to the drain of the power FETs, and the sources of the FETs to ground. The way this works is that the FETs on one side are switched on building a magnetic field in one transformer primary phase and building a secondary voltage at the same time. Then, phase one turns off, phase two turns on building an equal, but opposite magnetic field in the secondary, and so on. So, one bank of FETs and one primary half “pushes,” and the other bank and phase “pulls.”
From here, there are regulation differences. Unregulated (the simplest topology and what I use – they tend to sound louder with good punch) simply count on battery voltage and transformer ratio to determine the secondary voltage. Amps with a higher output power at 14.4 volts than at 12 are usually unregulated. Regulated supplies sample the secondary voltage and modulate the primary’s pulse-width (pulse width modulation – PWM) to keep the secondary voltages constant. These car amps tend to have the same output power ratings with battery voltages from 10 to 16 volts. Linear Power ran unregulated supplies. They also used high-current bipolar switching devices with some weird designs. They worked, but were not very efficient and were very old-school.
Look at most any “decent” and better car amps and it’s very easy to discern the power supply section from the amplifier. The power supply will have the transformer somewhat central to the supply section flanked by the primary filter capacitors (they are usually high capacity at 16 volts) and also by the secondary capacitors (usually lower capacity and higher voltage). Also nearby will be the driver IC/electronics, filters (R/C snubbers), and other support parts. The rectifiers will generally reside in proximity to the transformer’s secondary and filter caps. The MOSFET switching banks can be anything from one-or-two to dozens of FETs per primary phase. The FETs and rectifiers will generally be secured to the heatsink to ensure they are kept within thermal limitations and to give the amp a symmetrical look.
The Linear Power 5002iq power amp I worked on used a FerroxCube TX51/32/19 toroid core in a 3C81 material. This core is good for about than 1.5KW of power. Remember though, 1,500 watts is not amplifier power. This is total power. Once amplifier inefficiencies, switching losses, wire losses, and a multitude of others are removed, it is good for maybe 1KW of amplifier output power. I used a similar core in my 700 watt amp. Anyway, the Linear transformer had four paralleled 18AWG windings per primary. It then had 16 secondary windings (X 2 for the +/- voltage), also of 18AWG wire to produce approximately +/- 55 volts for the 2-ohm power supply rails. Lastly, it had additional sets of four secondary windings to provide +/- 68 (55 + 13 = 68) volts for the 4-ohm rails. Linear used a set of “taps” to allow the user to select the appropriate supply voltage depending on the load being driven. The tap-selectable rail voltages kept the amp fairly efficient, but wasn’t real convenient as the amp had to be pulled and the taps changed if the speaker loads were changed. The transformer worked very well despite the bipolar switching devices.
This is a lot to digest and understand, but read through it a couple times, and I’ll try to post some schematics and pictures soon. From all of this, car switching supplies should no longer be a mystery and something the savvy weekend-warrior could prototype and put into use.
Enjoy! |
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| DJNUBZ |
| I know that there have been some amps that had external power supplies. Do you think it would be possible to build something like that with an adjustable output voltage? This way you could try different amp topologies in car without having to build a new PS for each? |
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| DCPreamp |
Zapco did this "modular" design back in the '80s, but is always seemed a little silly because no one would buy a supply without the amp or buy the amp without the supply. So why not combine them and reduce production costs with only one PCB and reduced construction requirements.
As far as building a variable car power supply to test amp designs, it certainly could be done. However, variable switching supplies are more complex and could present stability problems to the novice builder. I'd use home power supplies (transformers with diodes/caps) for the power supply section and once a power amp design and size is selected, build a dedicated car switching supply dedicated to your application.
It's your time and money (make sure to fuse everything well unless money is not a concern ; ) and there's nothing like the feeling of powering up a DC/DC converter and having it work well. There's also no smell like powering one up that doesn't work well.
Later. |
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| RHelton |
| not sure how "high" end this is considered but I'm running a Memphis audio "Belle" amp. It's a 6 channel amp rated at 1400 watts (I think) that is actually 2 amps w/ independant power supplies and everything under the same shell. Extremely powerful, extremely clean. I've got it running my entire system and at 30% sub power it'll wear a pair of 12's out quickly if turned up to loud. The high's and mid's are cystal clean w/ no noise, static, or any other problems. Highly suggested. |
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| gompka |
| i have the arc audio 1500 (class t) and the 2100 in my car. www.sounddomain.com/id/gompka I think they are among the best sounding amps in their price range. Brax and zapco do sound better but it all depends if you justify the improvement to sound by a large price jump. |
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| cratz2 |
| In all honesty, though I feel I have a pretty well-tuned ear, I just can't hear much difference among the higher end amps. An Aura MR675 replaced my JL 300/4 and if there's a difference, it's less than 1%, even when sitting still. While driving, give it up... the difference is psychological. I'm a fan of topology and asthetics. As long as there is no noise, anything at the JL level and up will satisfy me. |
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| frankdatank22 |
I thinkg that the best sounding amps in the world.
1. Xtant
2.Zapco
3. jl
4. arc |
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| maxxiemoe |
| Great thread here, I have not read all of them but I like all the input as well. I have heard and listened to alot of the amps in this forum, so with my response I may sound a bit old school but I have been usng the same two amps for 16 years now and I still think that they rate up their with the best of the best, I am using two ADS amps, one is a PQ20.2 and the other is a PH.15 both of these amps are quite and vvery conservative, when coupled with the right speakers they are amazing, I am running them with an audio control crossover and Nakamichi SP-80's and a NAK 10 and ADS speakers, and the combination is still as true as I have heard. |
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| Here-I-Come |
Well since it is back up top, I will add my input. Here some of my favorite amps:
Arc Audio SE's
Soundstream D200, D100, Class A's and MC's
Mac's
Linear Power 2.2's
DLS A3, RA20, A2
Zapco C2K's, and studio's
Brax 2 channel (can't remember which one it was)
Alto Mobile ADP's (Great midrange amps)
JBL Crown amp's
Genesis Dual Mono's
Sony M50, 2100G, M1, 260G, and M3 (This want to hear the super rare 2000R)
Pioneer ODR Class A's
Audsion (smooth and laid back)
PPI Arts
Blade's
All are top notch
Still want to play with the Sonfoni's, some of the other Genesis and Brax/Helix, some the Adcom's |
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| jol50 |
| I like Alpines too, I have an old 3518 that sounds really nice but just wish it was larger. People tell me it is not special, but it sure works nice. Have an older mrv-1002 and just looked at a newer mrv-t757. The 757 is all TO220 inside except the rectifiers while all the older Alpines I have seen only had TO220 in the PS if any, and not for outputs. But, not listened to it yet either. |
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| budget minded |
well i've only listened to the bargain basement Power Acoustic TS-620-2 "plasma sphere" amps i bought for my bicycle trailer system and i'm actually pretty pleased with their sound.
they have nice extended treble that walks all over my old NAD reciever! as NAD is considered "high end", i'd say the comparison is fair. the amps don't have the ultimate low level resolution that my panasonic class-D reciever has, but they do have a nice enthusiastic dynamic sound.
my vote for ultimate high end would DEFINATELY be alpine or blaupunkt class-D. i love the hyperdetailed yet grainfree sound and superior imaging of class-D.
i love my panasonic & sonic impact amps.
some might not like class-D sound though as it isn't "exciting or warm" but i love it's speed and detail. i'll never buy a class A/B reciever again. BTW my panny also walks all over my onkyo too. it has better treble extension than that NAD, but after hearing the panny, i realized it had treble grain and nowhere near the midrange clarity.
maybe my power acoustiks are a mile from high end, but they don't have the treble congestion or grain i expected with my NHT's fussy softdomes so i'm happy with those. i bought them more for their "bling bling" plasma displays and their $40 closeout price. |
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| Redshift187 |
| I had two Zapco AG150's, one running the fronts and one running the rears, and a Zapco AG750 for the sub. Loved them. |
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| Nology |
| My soundstream class a picasso was an awesome amp before it blew. |
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| zyan |
in my opinion
brax graphic 10
genesis class a 10
steg class a 10
monolithic 10
thru class a 10
luxman 9
pioneer odr 9
sinfoni amplitude 9
audison vrx 8
dls a3 7
audison thessis 7 .... big marketing |
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| tomtomjr |
Out of all the amps I have run here are the top ones that I have heard on the mids/highs from the old days.
Zapco 151 or 150 (2 or 3 piece amps)
McIntosh MC4000
Marantz 750A/P (seperate power supply and amps)
Nakamichi PA-400M's (take several of the mono amps and use stereo)
Yamaha YPA-800 (4 channel, one of the best I have used, and cheap)
Audiomobile (any)
Harmon Kardon CA-240
The best three of them were the Zapco, the Yamaha, and the Nakamichi PA-400M's that were used in stereo. (have to use several of these since they are mono amps.) ... The Yamaha YPA-800 is a 4 channel that IMO was the best sounding next to the Zapco's. It was a fairly cheap amp, but on 4 Nakamichi SP-400 plates, sounded amazing. A punch 45 per pair of 6x9's sounded pretty good too. Especially when you run several of them. Not really sq, but really loud... |
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| anton-sa |
hi all,
ok my home setup is a nad 302 amplifier...this is my home reference...
in the car i have a jl audio 300/4. i own two of em actually..
i compete in iasca sound quality competitions,
came 1st in pro..cape town region last year with 358points,
looking at the south african championships which took place a week later in johannesburg,
looking at the scores, would've placed me in 3rd spot...
i simply think the 300/4 works well.. and in combination with my nakamichi cd700 and nakamichi mf51 shuttle. its absolutely stunning!
i seriously RATE this amplifier!
DLS make a awesome valve hybrid amp which apparently is very good. but very very expensive as manufactured in small quantitiy.
the 300/4 and all "/" "SLASH" serious jl audio amps have RIPS, regulated power supply, basically works with multiple rails..more or less ensuring the same output with anything between 10v and 13.8v input... good in a car environment.
as during the day the load on your power is less.. but at night..with aircon lights heater etc all on...the voltage can and most cases does on occasion drop to a smidgeon below 12volts..especially when sitting at a traffic light idleing..
just my 2c
cheers
anton
cape town,south africa |
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| jpruden |
Wow... Yamaha YPA-800... that *was* quite an amp. I worked for a high end retailer in TX back in the early 80's and all of the Yamaha car equipment was really top notch.
Our delivery truck had a Yamaha head unit along with one of the smaller Yamaha amps and a 5.25 set with the titanium tweeters and it ran right up there with the a/d/s/ and Nakamichi gear we sold... really great sound.
Ah... memories... |
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| anton-sa |
well being born in 1981 i cant say i can remember early 80's but however... mid to late 80's,some of the best cars sound wise was e.g 1985 230e mercedes...
i think the proper car audio equipment was only had by eliteist...at that time as we(south africa) were still in isolation (upto 1994 when nelson mandela became president)
but i do have vague memories... of these in-dash "boosters" with these funny eq like sliders, they were like 20w x 2 or something.... i think pretty much hardly more powerful than most headunits todays's built in amps...
i actually have a memory of my older brother (10yrs older) stashing his hifi speakers in the boot and connecting it to this "booster"/amp...
hehe
dont think i ever saw "car audio" as such in shops that time..simply think there wasnt really a market for it...
i ve been competing in iasca comps (sq) since 2000...but ive heard some of the ppl that have been competing longer and i think car audio as such actually starter here more like early 90's... we not behind anymore though..all DLS and JL equipment available here...zapco...rockford...audison etc etc
sorry for going WAAAY off topic!
cheers
Anton |
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| budget minded |
if you want to go for vintage amps, i clearly remember soundstream being called "the best" for a while. they were so popular that they even started making home gear for a minute.
in case no-one's mentioned it yet, i'd bet a nickel that Mc Intosh amps can't be shabby as their home gear is treasured even on the used market. i couldn't believe it when i saw a mac amp at a local shop. it had the same look they've always used too... black glass with chrome trim and the infamous giant blue VU meters.
i'd bet they put the same care into their car amps as their home ones and that they are super solidly engineered and sound very good. if nothing else, you'd have a ton of snob appeal owning one of those giant monsters. |
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| jpruden |
McIntosh car amps are the shiznit...
I think my favorite "feature" of mine is the absolutely silent background from the amp... I could put my ear right up to the tweeter with the volume turned up on the head unit and didn't get ANY hiss.
The build quality is awesome and most of them are fan cooled. Simply sublime... |
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| ppia600 |
| My ppi's are silent (if I short the rca inputs) but my kenwood deck has a constant hiss level whether at volume 1 or max. It completely mutes at 0. Weird |
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| shagone |
| quote: | Originally posted by ppia600
My ppi's are silent (if I short the rca inputs) but my kenwood deck has a constant hiss level whether at volume 1 or max. It completely mutes at 0. Weird |
i think for it to be silent you need a feature called zero bit mute that some alpines have as well as others.
some of my xtant amps like my 603x have a muting circuit too so if there is no music it mutes the output and you can adjust the sensetivity of it. it is a great amp that i hope to put back in service soon. i have tons of plug in modules for it. |
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| ppia600 |
| My amps have the muting circuit built in... it has nothing to do with them even though I'm not using the ppi noise gate controller. The problem is the deck is sending a higher level of noise than signal when its turned really low... not all of the way down. (from level 1 to about 3) Its mainly when running jump drives with the usb cable so I think its something to do with those circuits. With cd I don't notice it. I also mentioned there is zero noise if I turn the deck all of the way down. Its not really a big deal but when its really quiet and I have it really low its noticeable. Heck, some of the kenwood excelon decks had the "zero bit mute" circuits WAY back, I think they may have been the first to integrate it into the deck. I remember back when I had CA&E subscription and they were drooling over it in one issue. Mine is an excelon x890, not sure if they use the muting circuits anymore. Someone here should know for sure. |
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| shagone |
| yeah i heard that the zero bit mute gets you extra point in sound quality comps but your right not a big deal for everyday use. |
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| tcandey |
| quote: | Originally posted by DCPreamp
Hi There,
Having worked for Linear Power for two years back in the ‘90s, I can say that when they were installed and set up correctly, driven by a clean, high-voltage-out source, and running great speakers, they sounded very nice. Then again, so do most amps in the same situation. They fell apart with a lack of dampening factor, used a pretty mediocre amplifier topology and along with inefficient bi-polar switching devices, they lacked clarity and punch. They did use very good output devices, nice NE5532 op-amps, and very strong switching toroid cores. I left just after the development of the 8002iq (I hand carried the first prototype 8002iq in a box with a paper handle to the ’91 CES show in Vegas) (by the way, iq stood for one inverted channel and an output relay to “quiet” their horrendous turn on/off pop) and the 2.2HV and a few other models were still in the prototype stage. This was also not too long before their ultimate demise and subsequent sale to a couple of chuckle-heads who write emails like Neanderthals, but that’s a different thread.
Regards |
DC, were you still at LP when they built the first proto To-3 amps for us at Soundwerks for teh Dynaudio Jimmy?
wow, those were pretty awesome.....
On another note, anyone remember the Canton Manframe amps that were class a momoblocks? |
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