| mazeroth |
I can get killer deals on car subwoofers because I work for a car audio shop. Was wondering how well a good car sub would work in the house if I were to make a suitable box for it? Take for instance, the Alpine Type-R sub. Here are the best specs I could find...
General-Subwoofers
* Diaphragm Material : Kevlar Reinforced Pulp
* Magnetic Weight : 89.4oz.
* Mounting Depth (top mount) : 178mm (7”)
* Mounting Diameter (top mount) : 275mm (10-7/8”)
* Recommended Box Types : Sealed/Vented/Bandpass
* Recommended Sealed Box Volume : 0.7 – 1.0 cu. ft.
* Spider Material : Nomex
* Voice Coil Diameter : 50mm
Power Handling
* Power Handling Capacity (Peak) : 1000W
* Power Handling Capacity (RMS) : 300W
Thiel Small Parameters
* Coil Height (Hvc) : 37.74mm
* Cone Area (Sd) : 467.59 sq. cm
* D.C.Coil Resistance (Re) : 3.6 ohm + 3.6 ohm
* Electrical Q (Qes) : 0.45
* Equivalent Suspension Stiffness (Vas) : 58 liters(2.04cu.ft.)
* Free Air Resonance (Fs) : 28Hz
* Frequency Response : 24Hz - 1kHz
* Gap Height (Hag) : 10mm
* Impedance (Nominal) : 4 ohm + 4 ohm
* Inductance (Le) : 3.85mH at 1kHz (1.34mH at 20kHz)
* Linear Excursion (X linear) : 13.87mm
* Maximum Excursion (X peak) : 27.7mm
* Mechanical Excursion (Peak-to-Peak) : 55mm
* Mechanical Q (Qms) : 8.31
* Sensitivity : 87 dB/W/M
* Total Loudspeaker Q (Qts) : 0.43
Looking at those specs, what are this sub's weaknesses and strengths? I can get these subs for ~ $65/each brand new. It is built EXTREMELY well, which I know isn't super relevant to sound and output.
If this one isn't suitable, do you know of any other ones that are? I can get a discount on a bunch of brands. I'd also like the sub to go pretty low if possible.
Thanks! |
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| mazeroth |
| I translated that article using Altavista Spanish to English and it was pretty hard to comprehend :( |
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| BillFitzmaurice |
The bottom line is that a driver is a driver. The main difference between home and auto sound drivers is their impedance, with auto sound drivers being lower to gain higher output with low voltage/high current autosound amps. When used with higher voltage/lower current A/C powered amps this low impedance can be a problem, so be well sure that your amp can handle the load.
There is a problem with autosound drivers that seems endemic to the genre, in that their stated T/S specs are often very inaccurately stated, verging on grossly inflated in many instances. For this reason alone most experienced builders tend to avoid using autosound drivers in the home, and in fact many prefer using hi-fi drivers in their autos. I personally would not use any autosound driver without first measuring and verifying its specs. |
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| Paradise_Ice |
I have too agree with Bill, car audio manufacturers lie about the specs all the time, i have measured the T&S of many car audio woofers and there off by 40% at times, the cheaper companies dont lie for some reason.
You can use a car subwoofer for your home audio, but thats about it, car mids and tweeters tend to be very poor in comparision to home audio.
$65 bucks is cheap so thats not bad at all. |
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| JohnL |
The other thing you need to watch with car subs (for some reason the more expensive ones are the worst offenders here) is that they tend to have a rather high FS for a sub. They make up for the high FS with the cabin gain on the low end. For that reason, and the over inflated prices, most home sub builders stay away from them. Besides, you can get some pretty darn good 12" home subs for under $125; there really isn't any reason for most folks to go shopping for something else. In your case, it makes more sense.
John |
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| Paradise_Ice |
JohnL is right again, the prices of the most expensive subwoofers are just marketing hype, i know trust me.
There is only a few dollars difference between the most expensive subwoofers and the cheapest ones.
You get less for your money in car subwoofers on average, i will say a good drive unit is a good drive unit regardless of purpose, you can use home audio drivers in a car and car audio subwoofers in your home. |
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| mazeroth |
Thanks for the replies! I'm looking to build a sub that will hit LOW and it looks like no car sub will do it well. I'd like to get to +- 3db down to 16hz like the SVS subs so it looks like a home sub will have to be the way to go. Any suggestions on some awesome home woofers? Maybe even better than the MKIII Titanic?
Thanks! |
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| khaosman |
Check out the Adire Audio Tumult... a bit pricey but awesome :D
I run a Brahma 15 in my house; speaking of the thread topic. |
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| trampas |
It's true, a driver is a driver.
In my experiences, subs made for automotive applications are inefficient. This is the reason they starve for rms wattages of over 400-500 when you get into the high output subsonics that they are intended for.
Stick with a sub made for an amp safe to drive an 8ohm load, long term. So many manufacturers of car subs are hitting the thresholds of next-to-zero impedance intrinsically for increased output alone, of a very inefficient driver to begin with.
If you can spy an EFFICIENT car sub, that's an 8 ohm driver - you should be golden. |
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| CeramicMan |
The thing with car subs is that they're intended to be used within a very small "room" volume, and preferably in a small box too. The "room gain" in a car is likely to kick in at a usefully high frequency such as 70Hz or even 100Hz, which means that a very small sealed box can be used, and the 12dB/oct roll-off below Fc (sealed box) won't need to be compensated for. This means that the in-car FR can be relatively flat down to subsonic frequencies without using lots of power, and there's plenty of room left for several more subwoofers.
CM |
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| Paradise_Ice |
Did you say seven?
what kind of car do you drive?
why would you need 7 anyway? |
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| Jimmy154 |
lol, seven who said that, I couldn't find anything? Anyway that's nothing. I got 8 eight Tumult's in my Mini Cooper. It's not loud enough, I can still here motorcycles sometimes. But I can't fit anymore, I will have to wait til they make a TumultII.
I tried the car subwoofer home sub thing also. Except I bought the subs and then asked questions. My subs were old model Kicker Solobaric S15d's, they were $120 for 2, so way cheaper than any home sub, also great quality. Fs was 18 Hz and nominal impedance was 4 ohm, but they did not model well in Win ISD, so I gave up.
I saw a website with some one who built a home downfiring sub with infinity perfect 12.1 woofer. Don't know if you can find it. |
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| Paradise_Ice |
So you i take it your a deliver guy? noway 8 Tumults is something a hearing person would have in a mini copper! you wouldnt not have any back seats, or font seats, lol
I do not really like the solobaric for the same reason, they dont model well or sound that nice, the fs of 18 is not musical, i found it rather bucksome and lardy, not an accurate sound for me. |
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| THOR |
First of all from the negative posts above it would seem that most have not actually built home subs using these drivers nor heard a well built one.
The estemed home driver,with copper faraday rings, the peerless XtraLongStroke 12", $144 from MAD, is a fine driver used in many home systems.:)
FLASH!!! This is listed by peerless as an autosound driver!!!!!
The excellant $135 HSU ASW1203 12" driver that i use in a stereo pair, in 1.4 ft3 sealed enclosure when driven by the HSU plate amp with EQ, when tested on Bruce Edgars calibrated LMS gave the following: +/- 2 Db 100Hz to 30 Hz,and minus 4 DB@20 Hz , IN ROOM! When driven in my room 12'X30' well dampedwith bass traps ,
by a 100W/C stereo amp they easily exceed a measured, effortless 103 Db! This is excellant results for ANY SEALED sub:) ESP one measureing 16"X16"X16" Note: as I value my hearing i dont usually exceed 103Db
in the home, so i dont want to hear any critism that it wont hit 121 Db. A SINGLE one will in a car at <10%THD @ 12.5 hz!!!
FLASH!!! This is an AUTOSOUND driver. Its attack and transients are a delight:) they match my fast sealed JORDAN FR speakers seamlessly.
For an excellent home stereo application of the peerless XLS12" go here
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~joeras/sub_index.htm
to see the "Critical Q sub" complete with building instructions, freq res, distortion measurements and FAQ for this outstanding sub . My subs are nearly identical in concept which i built 5 years ago. All generalities are untrue! LOL There are some great results obtainable with some selected autosound drivers . The 2 above are only those i am very familiar with. There are more. |
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| trampas |
| quote: | Originally posted by THOR
LOL There are some great results obtainable with some selected autosound drivers . |
This is SO true.
Look for the EFFICIENT sub-driver. And ONLY the efficient ones i could/would recommend. |
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| Jimmy154 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Paradise_Ice
So you i take it your a deliver guy? noway 8 Tumults is something a hearing person would have in a mini copper! you wouldnt not have any back seats, or font seats, lol |
I have them in the roof with the magnets sticking out so everyone can enjoy the sound. Their baskets are ribbed for everyones pleasure.
| quote: | Originally posted by Paradise_Ice
I do not really like the solobaric for the same reason, they dont model well or sound that nice, the fs of 18 is not musical, i found it rather bucksome and lardy, not an accurate sound for me. |
I guess they thought Kicker sounded better than Bucksome. I agree, not a musical speaker. Not many car subs are. Good choice going with home subs for home. Actually I can't think of anything in my car I would want in my house. Except nitrous bottom maybe. |
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| THOR |
Im suffering from oldstimers disease LOL I completely spaced one out!
Dr. Bruce Edgar of Edgarhorn fame, the "king" of efficiency makes a fabulous horn loaded sub, the "Seismic Sub" the size of a very large refridgerator that is simply extrodinary in dynamics and punch. Its also VERY musical, but is $$$$. As a much lower priced, smaller sub he also makes a sealed sub using an undisclosed famous brand autosound sub driver. I have seen this 12" driver and it has an enormous motor, and is physically gorgeous! Id LOVE to have it in a 1" thk clear plexi enclosure with a blue light inside ! lol Well so much for me having any taste !lol His box is approx 16"X16"X16". This sub , when driven by his HSU plate amp of 150 w gives up some dynamics and punch to the seismic, but has slightly better responce below 25 hz, (not a strong point with horn subs that will fit in a house. The Klipsch has dieing responce below 45 Hz!:) The impact , musicality, and feeling of realism of the Seismic is superior to the tiny sealed sub as it should be , but the sealed sub does NOT embarrass its self ) If not compared to the Sesmic, you could easilly live with this excellent sub :) MY sub sounds very similar to it . I have noticed a "family" resembleance to low Q sealed autosound subs using uniformly excellent drivers . There is NO 1 note bass with these excellant subs :) |
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| SQ Kid |
i happen to own one of the type-r subs you're looking at. they are a very nice subwoofer. and at the price you're getting them for, thats a downright steal. in the car audio world, they are known for being a decent sq sub while still having a decent amount of punch to them. i ran mine off around 150 watts rms and it did very well in a sealed box. i was planning on a ported box (cause my sealed one got destroyed by water), but never got around to finishing it.
for car applications, they do well sealed around 1 cu ft and ported varies (i've been told 1.4 cu ft and also 2.5 cu ft, so it all depends). |
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| cytokine |
I can't help but think of the Adire Audio Shiva as a car sub since I first heard about it for car applications. I have two in my explorer and they sound just fine thank you.
Adire sells this same driver in a sealed box and calls it the Rava. Very nice. I have this one in my living room.
Following what this thread seems to be saying, the Shiva is very efficient, musical, and it runs about $125. |
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| Paradise_Ice |
| I think you guys misunderstand what am saying at any rate, there are good subwoofers and not so good subwoofers, the Adire are good units, not all car subwoofers are equal so there is a vast difference between these units. |
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| cytokine |
| quote: | Originally posted by Paradise_Ice
I think you guys misunderstand what am saying at any rate, there are good subwoofers and not so good subwoofers, the Adire are good units, not all car subwoofers are equal so there is a vast difference between these units. |
I don't think I'm misunderstanding you, at least I hope not. I think my post was actually a not very well stated implicit agreement with you.
I guess what I was thinking when I wrote what I wrote was that I did a lot of research before buying my car subs and decided on the Adires because they sounded good and were efficient. It was only later that I learned that they were not initially designed for car audio use but had been adapted for it.
My audio affliction began as a quest for loud car stereo. Fortunately I'm not easily satisfied (and I'm not nearly as young as most car audio guys seem to be). While researching car subs I noticed that most seemed to be discussed in terms of insanely high power. Class D amps that ostensibly produce 1000 W are not uncommon and subs that need it are not that rare.
My quest lead me to the Adire product because it had a reputation for sounding good and it turned out to be rather efficient. They get louder than you need with something like 300 W.
I guess what I'm ultimately getting at is that I'm not a bit surprised that car audio in generally is grossly mis-represented. Advertising is a powerful tool. Used by unscrupulous people to manipulate those who don't know any better it can be quite evil.
I should be working... |
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