| soundNERD |
I want to build this project (project 101), http://sound.westhost.com/ but don't think the price for his boards and shipping is worth it.
So, does anybody have the PCB pattern for this project that I can use to make my own board? |
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| jackinnj |
| Randy Slone's ("High Power Audio Amplifiers" and "Audiophile Guide") books on amplifiers using the 2sk1058/2sj162 lateral mosfets -- both books have PCB layouts which can be enlarged and used as a templates. |
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| jaycee |
| I should point out that Rod makes a living from selling his amplifier kits, and that requesting copies of his work is theft. |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by soundNERD
So, does anybody have the PCB pattern for this project that I can use to make my own board? |
You haven't thought of actually buy one from Rod? How much more expensive does your amp project get if you buy a working pcb? |
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| m0tion |
| Trust me on this one, his price is a bargain. You definately do not want to etch your own PCB unless you absolutely have no other choice. I would easily pay twice or three times that to avoid etching a PCB. |
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| UrSv |
| quote: | Originally posted by soundNERD
I want to build this project (project 101), http://sound.westhost.com/ but don't think the price for his boards and shipping is worth it.
So, does anybody have the PCB pattern for this project that I can use to make my own board? |
You're kidding right? USD 30 including shipping... |
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| peranders |
| As I pointed out earlier, how much more will your amp project cost if you will add 30 dollars? Of course if you etch the pcb yourself it will cost you 1 dollar at the most but this pcb layout happen to be NOT public domain. I'll guess you have to sit down and make the pattern yourself... which isn't so easy if you don't know how it should look like. |
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| m0tion |
| This guy isn't Microsoft, if you want to use his design you should definately buy his board. |
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| sam9 |
| quote: | I want to build this project (project 101), http://sound.westhost.com/ but don't think the price for his boards and shipping is worth it.
So, does anybody have the PCB pattern for this project that I can use to make my own board?
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Yes, I have a PCB for this.
No, you can't have it. It is intellectual property that belongs to Rod Elliot. The price Rod is asking is cheaper than dirt. It is more than worth it. The only reason the design you covet exists is the hope on Rod's part he can recover the cost of design and fabrication plus a modest profit. If you have never successfully laid out an amplifier PCB even from a cookbook schematic, you cannot imagine the time, effort and cost it takes to "get it right". If it were me, I would be pricing the boards 50-100% higher and no way would I post the schematic (even without values) on my website like Rod does. |
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| tschrama |
Besides that all.... Rod has allways be aa great guy in correspondings to me and I would like to stimulate you to buy his board just to support him and his webside....
cheers,
Thijs |
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| SteveA |
Buy Rod's boards. As noted above, this is his "bread and butter". I have built several P3A's and will be finishing a couple of 101's shortly. His prices are quite reasonable in my opinion.
SteveA |
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| rabbitz |
Built one and Rod's PCBs are a bargain. He's got the P101 boards at a lower price at the moment as there was a slight error in the latest batch.
I don't think Rod's going to get rich from selling his boards and he needs support for his R&D and brilliant web site which is like a one stop shop for the DIYer. |
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| Jean |
I have also bought the boards from Rod (4 p3a, 2 lm 3875 and 2 DOZ) and he is very very helpful if you run into any problems or have questions. I think his prices are cheap, and boards work just fine .
Buy the board from Rod if you decide to build his projects or just roll your own. |
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| soundNERD |
how stupid are all of you?
I'm not asking for a copy of his work, i'm asking if somebody has made their own board design for this.
So why don't you all calm down and take a chill pill.
And, yes. 30 dollars for a piece of pcb with copper is a ripoff. |
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| BobEllis |
| quote: | Originally posted by soundNERD
And, yes. 30 dollars for a piece of pcb with copper is a ripoff. |
Not when I look at the few boards I have tried to make. I think professionally made boards are a bargain compared to the cost of my learning curve, time and materials (some wasted) and health risk. What do you plan to do with the etchant afterwards?
I think that is the reason most people were trying to steer you Rod's boards, not thinking that you are trying to rip off Rod's work.
Careful with the broadside insults, or you might not get the help you need later on in your project. ;) |
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| jaycee |
| quote: | Originally posted by soundNERD
I'm not asking for a copy of his work, i'm asking if somebody has made their own board design for this.
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The only way anyone would know component values etc for this project would be if they have purchased Rod's board. Therefore, own design or not would be stealing Rod's work.
Besides, as noted, you can't just slap tracks together on a bit of board and have it work - there are numerous issues to attend to when laying out a power amplifier PCB. Rod's PCB's have all of these issues worked out already, well worth the expense when you consider you're not likely to get it right first time around. |
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| soundNERD |
| quote: | Originally posted by jaycee
The only way anyone would know component values etc for this project would be if they have purchased Rod's board. Therefore, own design or not would be stealing Rod's work.
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last time i checked, the schematic is free...
and about the etchant, I collect it in a bottle and bring it to the hazardous waste day our town has
And I guess you are right, I'm just aggrivated people thought I wanted to steal from him. I was just asking if there were anyone like me who prefers to make things from scratch and wouldn't mind sharing the board layout they came up with with me. |
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| moving_electron |
If for what ever reason you do want to lay out a board for a design where he does offer a board, Rod's normal request is that you purchase the boards from him to support the site and give them away to someone.
Good way to support his site as well as get new folks involved. |
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| kilowattski |
| quote: | how stupid are all of you?
I'm not asking for a copy of his work, i'm asking if somebody has made their own board design for this.
So why don't you all calm down and take a chill pill.
And, yes. 30 dollars for a piece of pcb with copper is a ripoff.
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| quote: | | last time i checked, the schematic is free... |
Well, as you said, the schematic is free. If you are so bent on paying next to nothing for the PCB, sit down, design the board and etch it. It should cost you next to nothing. I don't see what the problem is. Don't expect people to come out of the woodwork to help you rip the guy off, when you rip the guy off yourself. DUH.......:cannotbe: |
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| UrSv |
| quote: | Originally posted by soundNERD
last time i checked, the schematic is free...
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But the component values are not AFAICT.. |
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| jackinnj |
| quote: | Originally posted by soundNERD
how stupid are all of you?
And, yes. 30 dollars for a piece of pcb with copper is a ripoff. |
Depends, if you are making 10,000 boards $30 may be a ripoff. If you are making 200 it is downright cheap --
TIME = MONEY |
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| richie00boy |
| Note sure where the $30 comes from. They are 17 USD each according to Rod's website. |
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| soundNERD |
| someone told me they were 30 bucks |
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| jackinnj |
| quote: | Originally posted by soundNERD
someone told me they were 30 bucks |
Aussie dollars, maple-leaves or greenbacks? |
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| pinkmouse |
| So you didn't actually check out the website properly for the amp you want to build then? ;) |
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| sam9 |
| quote: | Depends, if you are making 10,000 boards $30 may be a ripoff. If you are making 200 it is downright cheap --
TIME = MONEY
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Not to mention that you/we are also paying for Rod's development time and expense. There is no telling how many pre-release proto-PCBs (not to mention MOSFETs) he burner through to get the final result. It always looks simple AFTER someone else has done it. |
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| Eva |
That link may be useful...
http://sound.westhost.com/pcb/pricelist.html
P101 appears to cost US $17 per board [including a discount due to layout errors as the autor states] plus shipping costs ranging from US $10 to US $26 [fron Australia to USA w or w/o insurance] |
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| moving_electron |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eva
That link may be useful...
http://sound.westhost.com/pcb/pricelist.html
P101 appears to cost US $17 per board [including a discount due to layout errors as the autor states] plus shipping costs ranging from US $10 to US $26 [fron Australia to USA w or w/o insurance] |
These prices for the boards are via paypal. You may get a lower effective price by using the secure ordering app. option, buying via a credit card and having the credit card do the currency conversion. Depending on your banks conversion charges it is typically a lower cost way to go because ESP does not have to cover PayPal charges (fairly onerous) or exchange rate fluctuations. |
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| grege |
OK soundNERD, I realise you are only teasing us. ;) You've been around here long enough to know the reaction to trying to rip off Rod Elliott.
Good one, nearly got me. :smash:
Let's pass the hat around to collect of few bucks for soundNERD. :D
Hey I've got a even better idea, why don't you post this on Rod's forums, here's the url.
http://www.instantboard.com/users/rode/ |
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| traderbam |
Pinkmouse,
Are you the one taking liberties with my posts?
Make sure you are on the right side of rule enforcement versus personal censorship.
Helping amateurs with their enquiries is the purpose of this forum as I understand it. |
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| pinkmouse |
Traderbam
Yes, but not where that will infringe IP rights... |
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| traderbam |
Censorship is a very important thing to get right.
Could I please ask you:
1) To have the simple courtesy to inform me when you erase any posts of mine, and
2) Help me by telling me, specifically, which DIY Audio rules any posts you choose to delete have breached.
And if you cannot do this then kindly replace my posts. |
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| Triox |
Re the request for PCB for P3A.
How come this link following was posted only a few short months ago and everyone was helpful , now all of a sudden Big Brother has appeared and everyone is so concerned with IP rights.
I particular note POST 2, and the attached PCB.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...10&pagenumber=1
Like many other hobbyists I get great satisfaction making my own PCB,s.
Clearly Rod has allowed what is the most important part of his IP
to be downloaded and viewed by all, that is the schematic.
Anyone with a bit of time and Eagle can make a PCB from that schematic, so why can't all you fellow hobbyists help someone out and at least of pointed him to the link above, and maybe saved him a few hours stuffing around , instead of getting on your soap boxes and bagging him.
Steve |
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| kilowattski |
I think Rod pretty much says it on his Terms and Conditions page.
| quote: | | All text, diagrams, circuits and any other material presented in these project and articles pages are Copyright ESP / Rod Elliott unless otherwise stated. These circuits and descriptions are available for personal use only, and may not be used commercially without the author's written consent nor may the projects or articles presented be copied or directly linked to other sites or re-published in whole or in part in any form whatsoever whether electronic or otherwise without the author's written consent. Violators will be vigorously pursued by any and all means at my disposal. |
| quote: | | Copyright Notice. All projects described herein, including but not limited to all text and diagrams, are the intellectual property of Rod Elliott unless otherwise stated, and are Copyright © 1999-2004. Reproduction or re-publication by any means whatsoever, whether electronic, mechanical or electro-mechanical, is strictly prohibited under International Copyright laws. The author / editor (Rod Elliott) grants the reader the right to use this information for personal use only, and further allows that one (1) copy may be made for reference while constructing the project. Commercial use in whole or in part is prohibited without express written authorisation from Rod Elliott and the owner of the copyright in the case of submitted articles. |
I think offfense was taken when the original poster asked for artwork for the P3 board. It says in pretty plain language that if you want to design and make a PCB for yourself it is okay, but passing around a design for a board violates his copyright and is stealing his IP. |
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| Eva |
P3A is nothing but a revised version of a topology commonly used on 1970's and early 1980's [as the own Rod Elliot states]
P101 is nothing but an adaptation of the classic MOSFET source follower sold as kits by thousands of manufacturers during 1980's
So Rod Elliot has invented little or nothing, he is the owner of the copyright only because he has modified those classic designs according to his taste [including custom PCBs] and he is sure making profit of his designing and testing work
But I see no reason for complaining. In the end we are also fully free to adapt those classic designs to our taste [doing our own designing and testing work], thus getting copyright of our versions, and then we have the right to do whatever we want with the resulting schematics and PCBs [sell them as Rod does, publish them freely, etc...]
Rod is a creative and clever man, not some kind of god |
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| traderbam |
Careful killowattski, you may be in breach of the law by publishing those two paragraphs off Rod's site without his consent.
:rolleyes: |
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| m0tion |
| IP aside, that part I found offensive (and short sighted) was the idea that a manufactured PCB, with profits going to the designer, was not worth $30 shipped. I still think thats a ridiculous statement. |
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| moving_electron |
| quote: | Originally posted by m0tion
IP aside, that part I found offensive (and short sighted) was the idea that a manufactured PCB, with profits going to the designer, was not worth $30 shipped. I still think thats a ridiculous statement. |
Particularly when much of the proceeds gets plowed back into a site that provides so much DIY information on a wide range of topics gratis to the DIY community.
Documents and web pages of this quality take considerable time to create, maintain and update. Bandwidth and storage to support the number of hits on a site such as the ESP site is considerable.
Of course folks from time to time will want to design your own boards to accomodate different size components, try a different layout or just for the fun of it. For those reasons by all means design your own.
But buy the boards as well and give them away to a budding DIYer. This supports the designer's site and expands the number of DIY offerings and participants.
Then everyone is happy. |
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| traderbam |
| quote: | | But buy the boards as well and give them away to a budding DIYer. This supports the designer's site and expands the number of DIY offerings and participants. |
Your richessness might be turned to positive end if you were to take your own advice and buy pcb from Rod and send it to soundNERD. Yes, that would make everyone happy. :angel: |
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| moving_electron |
| quote: | Originally posted by traderbam
Your richessness might be turned to positive end if you were to take your own advice and buy pcb from Rod and send it to soundNERD. Yes, that would make everyone happy. :angel: |
If I decide to lay out a P101 board I will do that.
In the mean time I have recently bought four PC boards of various types from the site and will probably buy a couple more soon.
I was happy to note a new transistor tester project for Class A amp designs posted on the site free of charge since it will really help me in my next amp project. |
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| destroyer X |
As this is easier to me as shave myself...i can draw in 6 minutes.... i runned fast and tried to send to the boy...young boy, that told us no money to buy.
Without knowing nothing related copyrigth, i run and could not send him directly, this way, i put in this forum.
My God!..... mails came to me as rain drops falling....that no good, bad guy, this is not fair, how can you do that.
My people is free.... too much free.... i think our freedom is in excess, this way we have so many problems in consequence of that.
I fast asked to remove...i was ashamed!
The thread was erased....and i started to think....if really, have some logic that sittuation....protect property......someone owns this or that.....i found that the circuit had already been designed, long, long time ago.....Mr. Rodd was dancing Beatles and Rolling Stones those times.....coincidence, ... the one that took care of me in Japan, was the first designer of this thopologie, in Atsugi Plant...Sony Corporation.....coincidence.
But two persons can make same design, same time, in different world countries...not impossible, because technologie advance in some obvious way.... when first diferential was made...obvious to make a mirror, using PNP and NPN...double simetric circuits...so...developments are obvious after done (not before)
Those copyrigth protects Brands, names and designs.... also values and positions...if you change a little.... ready!...out of the subject... and can call P3A as A3P.
I think that situation is turning some of us in a fause way....untrue movements related our words....many are doing those copies in silence....because 30 bucks is a good money even to U.S. boys....because of taxes, and mail costs, things turns too big in my idea.
We have to keep the ball rolling, and respecting the laws and properties... also, have to take in account that Mr. Rodd sale those boards, this way, if in public domain, will be bad to his business.
But as diy forum... it is strange not to help the guy, and if he cannot pay, or if he do not think it is a fair price, what he can do?
To do or not to do....that's the question?
Of course he will do his own board, or, will ask some helping hand.
I believe we can forget the words the boy said....because if we are in his own shoes....using his own pants.....suffering this own pression...having his own needs.... hearing us telling Oh!...wow...ah!...Ihhhh!....who will not turn nervous?
Buy your boards guys, and some of you ... go making yours too.... in the nigth darkness.....hidden as always we do the things... population is enormous.... i never saw people producing babies...but those things happens.
Those that can pay the price, will pay the price....and others.... will be forced, by circunstances, to use other ways.
All those properties can be deeply discussed...but better not to change something that is working reasonable.... something under the sunlight....others in the shadows.
But, follow my idea please, i am asking your attention.....have the circuit thopology.....this one belongs to mankind now a days....hundreds of factories, industries, are using it....choice the same voltage supply.....select the adequated transistors to work linear in that voltage, the ones that can hold the current, the adequated gain, the correct bias....and you will make the same design...because his Mathematics are not different from ours....this way.... not law...but moral...morality....good use..good common sense.....who is the owner of what?
I am not saying that we have to "jump over the fence".... that we do not obbey the laws.... a lot of people is working with those circuits... and are our friends, our teachers, some of them are very important to our community....i am just saying that the babies will going in production, despite no one can see.
Carlos |
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| jaycee |
A schematic is only half the story when it comes to any circuit, as any experienced constructor should know. Parts choice and the layout of the parts on the board is critical.
I had this experience when I decided to naively build a P3A on veroboard in a slap dash manner. All that happened was the transistors got hot very quickly and the sound was distorted. There was no error in the connection of the parts, but when I consulted a friend who measured it with a 'scope, it was oscillating due to the poor layout. Once I relayed the parts out in a nicer manner, the problems went away.
I have seen a number of people post board designs in this forum where it is obvious this is their first go with a PCB design package, and they have just put parts onto the pcb in any order, and picked "Auto Route" or something similar. The end result is usually a 2-layer mess that'd just oscillate or burn traces under full load :bigeyes: |
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| destroyer X |
Conections must be as short as possible, there are some tricks in pc board construction...avoid input to output magnetic coupling, and also put the hy sensitivity parts very close one each other, but avoiding 2 stage output leads too much close to first stage base lead.... a lot of things you already know.
And...aahahahhaah (joke) as someone said some day.... i laugh a lot..... make construction strong, not to vibrate, because electrons can became drunk! ahahahaha...bull ---- !
Bye Jaycee...this is J and C i imagine...because Jaicee in my country is a girl name....hummmmmm good!
regards,
Carlos |
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| jaycee |
| Yep, my nickname is JC.. but that was already taken here :) so i use "jaycee" in that case, in english thats what the letters sound like when you pronounce it. |
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| destroyer X |
A very interesting way to abreviate and make it sounds good.
regards,
Carlos |
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