| Sunsun22 |
| Notwithstanding the benefits as stated in advertisement (e.g. texascomponents.com), is there any practical reason to use this type of resistors? Does anyone changed to this type of resistors in amp and feel the difference in sound? |
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| BrianL |
Many people swear by Vishay bulk metal resistors
(and the price is something to swear AT!)
Texas Components is another source of Vishays; identical product.
Probably in business so the military can have an "alternate source".
Tex. Comp. seems easier to deal with than Vishay -- at least
that's my impression from our parts-buyer at work. |
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| serengetiplains |
Hi Sunsun,
I suggest you order a few Vishay resistors to install at a critical junctures of your circuitry. I once replaced two RIAA resistors with Vishays in a tube preamp (ie, one per channel) and heard an audible difference for the better. From that point on, there was, for me, no looking back. IMO, the audible change Vishay resistors bring is not of the more subtle variety spoken of in these threads, detectable only by those having very finely tuned hearing. More like the difference between an 88-rated and a 93-rated wine which even the less discerning palate can appreciate.
Tom |
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| Sunsun22 |
Hay Tom, if you are talking about 88 and 93 rated wines, I can certainly tell the difference but again, this is subject to personal taste.
I'm not a EE and is not sure what is the critical path in a circuit. The accumulated information says the feedback resistor is the most critical, then followed by ........ Can you give me some examples.
Thanks |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sunsun22
and is not sure what is the critical path in a circuit |
Are you thinking about putting them in your ML preamp?;) |
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| Sunsun22 |
Oh yes. I am planning to purchase 8 x 100 ohms to replace the resistors next to the AD823 (I am using 8 x 120 ohmes paralleling the 1K Vishay at this moment). In the same time, I also wish to know if it is worthwhile to upgrade some of the resistors to Vishay block metal too.
I have compared the sound stage of 38 and 38S and the 38S sounds more open. However you know there are a lot of upgrades between 38 and 38S other than the Vishay resistors, I'm not sure how does the Vishay block metal resistors will affect the sound quality if changing them alone.
Sunny |
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| serengetiplains |
| Feedback and loading resistors, and resistors associated with gain functions in a circuit, can be considered critical. Any resistor through which the signal passes is critical. The further from these circuit areas, the less effect, generally, you will hear using different resistor types. Don't overlook the power supply, which is in series with the signal path. I think I recently read that Conrad Johnson, a tube amplifier manufacturer, has begun using Vishays in their power supplies. I suggest you won't be disappointed using Vishays anywhere in a circuit, subject to budget considerations of course. |
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| markp |
| The Caddock resistors are of equal quality and are cheaper than the Vishays. Made in the USA, not France. Michael Percy has them in all values. I use them in my amps and find them to be very rugged as well as sounding very neutral. |
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| serengetiplains |
Caddock MK-132s---medium-grade Caddocks---are only slightly cheaper than Vishays sourced from Texas Components. Caddock TF-020s are about the same price. As regards sound quality, a search on this site probably reveals most people prefer Vishays over Caddocks. My 2 cents on Vishay vs Caddock.
Cheers. ;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
Actually MK132 are half the price of Vishays. I tried them both and in some circuits spots I prefer Vishays, in other I prefer Caddocks. There is no one answer to this.
For instance, Vishay S102 didn't sound good at all in feedback loop of GC amp. Caddock MK132 sounds much better. |
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| Damon Hill |
Objectively, bulk foil resistors are the most linear
types I know of; practically no thermal drift or
voltage-induced nonlinearity. They're about as stable
as one can hope for in resistors. The type of technology
is distinctly different from any film or composition
resistor; the closest equivalent is wirewound in terms
of the materials used. I'd generally use them in place
of metal film resistors if it weren't for the cost.
I'm considering them for feedback circuits and input
stages, particularly differential amps. Sort of like
Black Gate capacitors, except bulk foil technology is
better defined and more broadly accepted in the industry,
for good reasons.
There is a limited selection of potentiometers with
bulk foil elements and I think those would almost be
very worthwhile, but the physical types I need aren't
available.
Admittedly, the only place I'm using bulk foil resistors
now is as calibration standards. My evil brother-in-law
once gave me some .01% units (he's an engineer, he knows
the value of having reference standards). |
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| serengetiplains |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Actually MK132 are half the price of Vishays. |
Vishays at Texas Components, $6.
Caddock MK-132s at Percy, $4 to $7.
Not quite half price. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by serengetiplains
Vishays at Texas Components, $6.
Caddock MK-132s at Percy, $4 to $7.
Not quite half price. |
I believe that the price of Vishays depends on value and tolerance. 220K MK132 Caddock costs $4.50, try to get a quote on a same value Vishay. At Percy you'd pay $32.50, TC may be cheaper, but I suspect it won't be less than $10. Is it quite half price?
In most commonly used range: 100R - 100K Caddocks are $4, comparing to $6 Vishays it is pretty close to half price. |
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| Petter |
Michael Percy is selling .3W Vishay Bulk Metal Foil in the range 5 Ohm to 120K at flat rate of $3.75 according to my catalog ...
Petter |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Vishay VSH bulk foil radial lead resistors, now available in all of the values above from 5.0§Ù to 120K, .3W @$3.75
We are told this is an S102 chip with a conformal coating, excellent sonics, but not quite the equal of the S102 above... ask for a data sheet as you won't find it elsewhere. |
I've been eyeballing his catalog for years and I've never noticed that. I was always seeing S102 info only. Sometimes threads like this are quite useful;) |
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| Robert Morin |
I like Vishay but they are a pain to buy. I use caddock because I can easily get them from Allied or Mouser. less pain good enough gain.
Robert Morin |
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| serengetiplains |
| Percy actually purchases Vishays he sells from Texas Components, evidenced by code markings on the resistors. Cheaper to go directly to the source. |
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| Peter Daniel |
Here's the quote I got from Texas Components today. Percy's prices are lower.| quote: |
These are all 0.01%
(1-4) S102K 100R00 0.01% = $15.01ea.
(5-9) = $11.71ea.
(1-4) S102K 22K000 0.01% = $16.51ea.
(5-9) = $12.88ea.
(1-4) = S102K 100K00 0.01% = $30.01ea.
(5-9) = $23.41ea.
(1-4) S102K 220K00 0.01% = $43.52ea.
(5-9) = $33.95ea.
These are 1.0%
(1-4) S102K 100R00 1.0% = $11.83ea.
(5-9) = $9.24ea.
(1-4) S102K 22K000 1.0% = $13.02ea.
(5-9) = $10.16ea.
(1-4) = S102K 100K00 1.0% = $23.67ea.
(5-9) = $18.47ea.
(1-4) S102C 220K00 1.0% = $34.32ea.
(5-9) = $26.77ea. |
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| serengetiplains |
Peter, I'm only paying $6 a pop for the unencapsulated S102K. Most recent order was only a few weeks ago for varying quantities of resistors ranging from 110R to 15K. Here's a quote from the confirmation email I received from Arbie at Texas Components:
| quote: | | t is good to know that you are pleased with the TX2352 resistor. Is there anything in particular that you liked about the sound? The price is 5.92 ea. We can ship parts in <2 weeks. |
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| Peter Daniel |
$6 is a very good price. I sent for another quote today, as I mistakenly asked for S102 version. It's worth noting that Percy carries S102 version, which is more expensive than "naked" TX2352 type.
I bought whole bunch of S102s from the guy selling them on a forum (at $2, initially), but I was not that much impressed with those. They sound fine, but highs are overdamped for my taste, sort of mellow sounding. I was reading that nude resistors are much better in this regard, as plastic encapsulation provides this additional damping and influences the sound.
I have some TX2352 resistors in my drawer as well, but still didn't decided where to use them.
I tried VTA55 Vishays from Partsconnexion and those were really unimpressive, Caddocks performed much better, IMO. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sunsun22
Notwithstanding the benefits as stated in advertisement (e.g. texascomponents.com), is there any practical reason to use this type of resistors? Does anyone changed to this type of resistors in amp and feel the difference in sound? |
To answer the original question, yes, there is a difference and there might be practical reason to use those type of resistors.
But it's not as easy as swappinging all resistor with the other type and expecting big gains. For each specific part of a circuit, a specific type of resistor may be more beneficial than other type. Ideally, checking different res types in a circuit would be best, but this requires time and money, and with complex circuits it's very inconvenient.
I was playing in this way with my GC amp, but since only 4 resistors were used, it was relatively easy. I decided for different type of resistors in different parts of the circuit, as only then I was able to achieve proper (at least for me) tonal balance. So it was Caddock for feedback and input shunting, Riken for gain setting (-IN to ground) and Vishay for series input resistance.
Had I used all same resistors in all those positions, the effect would be much less satisfying (as I tied it too). |
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| serengetiplains |
Percy told me he's changing his S102K stock over to the so-called naked Vishays (= Texas Components TX2352s). The last package of Vishays I received from Percy was a mix of encapsulated and unencapsulated S102Ks for which I was charged the same $11+ price per resistor.
Here is contact information for ordering TX2352s from Texas Components:
| quote: | Arbie Lopez
Customer Service/ Sales
Texas Components Corporation
Ph. 713-468-3882 Fax 713-461-2098
alopez@texascomponents.com |
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| Peter Daniel |
| This clarifies things. I'm surprised though that he decided for the change. Those resistors are very fragile and special packaging is required, however it seems like profit margin might be bigger;) |
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| Variac |
| quote: | | bought whole bunch of S102s from the guy selling them on a forum (at $2, initially), |
The posts of Archaic Audio guy can be found by searching the Trading Post, but he bumped the price to $4 apiece - probably because Peter and I went on about what a good deal it was!!
Although he has every right to do this , I found it annoying and have no desire to order more from him. This is great news that there are probably better sounding alternatives at a similar price! |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Variac
Although he has every right to do this , I found it annoying and have no desire to order more from him. This is great news that there are probably better sounding alternatives at a similar price! |
That's also how I feel about it. He was even threatening that he might bump the price to $5. I'd rather get nude Vishays, especially when they sound better. |
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| Sunsun22 |
Thank you for the fruitful input from you all. I have obtained the following quote from Texas Components: -
TXA100 series 100R00 0.66W
10.47ea, 10pcs=9.53 0.1%
12.88ea 10= 11.73 0.01%
Other than the shape, does TXA100 has the same quality as S102? (According to ad, yes).
Sunny |
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| jhead |
| I'm curious to know if anyone has experiance with Alpha Electronics metal foil resistors I understand they are made in Japan there web site is www.alpha-amer.com check them out |
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| Peter Daniel |
Here's the recent quote for TX2352 resistors. As I expected price depends on the tolerance and value. Comparing to this, Caddocks are still much cheaper when specific values are required (like 220k, for instance)
| quote: | These are all 0.01%
(2) S102K TX2352 100R00 0.01% = $7.51ea.
(2) S102K TX2352 22K000 0.01% = $8.25ea.
(2) S102K TX2352 100K00 0.01% = $15.01ea.
(2) S102C TX2352 220K00 0.01% = $21.76ea.
These are 1.0%
(2) S102K TX2352 100R00 1.0% = $5.92ea.
(2) S102K TX2352 22K000 1.0% = $6.51ea.
(2) S102K TX2352 100K00 1.0% = $11.83ea.
(2) S102C TX2352 220K00 1.0% = $17.16ea.
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| KBK |
| You know you have a real 'out of control' DIY issue when you are contemplating the design of your own resistive compounds. :xeye: |
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| Conrad Hoffman |
| Nonsense. I keep manganin wire on hand and often make my own custom low value shunts and non-inductively wound resistors. Still, even a non-inductively wound resistor won't have the HF performance of the bulk metal devices. Fortunately I can't hear the difference between resistor types, and suspect that if any difference exists, it has more to do with strays and tolerance, than the resistance material itself. |
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| abzug |
| quote: | Originally posted by Conrad Hoffman
non-inductively wound resistors. |
How does one wind to get it non-inductive? |
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| abzug |
| Also, I'd like to ask whether the S102 (around $12 at Percy Audio) are really that much better than the VT-55/54/52 (around $7 at Partsconnexion). They're both bulk metal foil. |
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| Bobken |
| quote: | Originally posted by abzug
How does one wind to get it non-inductive? |
| quote: | Originally posted by abzug
Also, I'd like to ask whether the S102 (around $12 at Percy Audio) are really that much better than the VT-55/54/52 (around $7 at Partsconnexion). They're both bulk metal foil. |
Hi,
Look up "Ayrton Perry" for non-inductive (or low-inductive) resistive winding info.
Having carried out a lot of resistor 'listening' trials, I didn't find the larger circular-bodied Vishay Bulk-Foils to be quite so good sonically as their other varieties like S102, VSRJ etc., which are in a less-substantial flat package.
As the best for me sonically are the so-called Naked Vishays, which are TX2352 from Texas Components, I can only guess that these very small sonic differences are related to the amount of epoxy packaging used, as the Naked Vishays don't have any such encapsulation at all. Otherwise, according to the makers, the resistive elements used in these Vishays are the same.
Regards, |
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| abzug |
| Do the 'naked' Vishays have resistive elements actually exposed to the air? |
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| Bobken |
No,
They have what looks to be a clear, possibly epoxy or similar type of varnish coating the entire device.
There is no added mass as with any usual plastic-encapsulated resistor like this, though, and this is the only apparent significant difference which I am guessing gives rise to the slightly-improved sonics.
Regards, |
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| Conrad Hoffman |
There are various ways to wind non-inductive resistors, some better than others. None of them will give the performance of a bulk metal foil resistor, though you have a greater choice of materials, if you believe materials affect the sound. IMO, that remains an interesting area of research.
The easiest way is to take the required length of resistance wire and fold it over in the middle- a bight, I believe. Fasten the fold to the form, keep the two leads close together, and wind. A flat form (mica was the old method, and I still use it sometimes) is good because it keeps the loop are small, thus the inductance small. The parallel wire also cancels out the inductance. Resistors wound this way are very good out to a few MHz.
You can also twist the wires a bit to keep them close. This helps the inductance, but increases the parallel capacitance even further, and probably increases the risk of insulation failure. It also looks bad, so I don't do it that way.
Another trick can be learned from the big ten turn pots. If you take one apart, you'll find the resistance wire has been wound on a piece of heavy copper wire. That is then wound around the body of the pot for the wiper to ride on. The coils are small, so the inductance is small, plus the copper wire reduces the inductance still further. This method is good to several hundred kHz or more. Interesting side track- look up tuning wands with brass and iron ends, and how they work.
Remember that these parts can be physically large, so stray capacitance to the chassis and other parts of the circuit has to be considered. IMO, that's a big factor with Teflon and polypropylene high end audio caps as well. |
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| FoilEngineer |
Hi all,
I just wanted to let you know that Vishay is now going to release Z-Foil "naked chip resistors"
We're on the final stages of testing and the datasheet is just about ready.
It should be fully published and available within about 2 weeks.
If you have any general questions about the Vishay Bulk Metal Foil, feel free to ask. |
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| Bobken |
Hi,
Now that is some interesting good news.:)
Having used the VSRJ, VSH and S102 series for very many years, and nothing else comes to close to them 'sonically' in my experience, I was pleased to try some TX2352s in a more-recent commercial design, and these were slightly better still than the encapsulated versions.
In fact I commented on this in the "Blowtorch preamplifier" thread only yesterday.
Thanks for letting us know.
Regards, |
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