| Henrik |
Peter Huang and jh6you
Thanks, seems I have to join the community of "The Art of Electronics".
:nod: |
|
|
| jh6you |
Hi all
In the audio world, many good tips are offered.
Among others, my favorite tips are here: http://www.audio.nl/tipseng.html
This is part of them.| quote: | ¡¦ A silicon rectifier is a semi-conductor, only letting current go
through it when the output voltage is more than 0,5 Volt below the input.
At that very moment it switches "ON". Inside a semiconductor there is a
capacitance as well. This capacitor, together with the inductance of the
wiring, causes a very sharp peak voltage to occur. This peak is too fast to
be dampened by the connected (electrolytic) capacitors.
The solution is simple: put a resistor between the transformer and the
rectifier. In a transistor power amp the value of that resistor may be 0,1
Ohm - 5 Watt. With tube power amps it could be around 1 Ohm and in preamps
(transistor and tubes) some 10 Ohms.
The result is a more relaxed amplification. It seems as if the sound comes
easier out of your loudspeakers and the stereo image is mostly improved. A
few dimes will do the job. |
I am interested in this and about to apply for my BOSOZ PSU as shown below. Have you ever tried this? I could have my own experiment; however, knowing your experience would be a great help. Thanks.
JH |
|
|
| ralf |
| quote: | Originally posted by jh6you
Hi all
In the audio world, many good tips are offered.
Among others, my favorite tips are here: http://www.audio.nl/tipseng.html
This is part of them.
I am interested in this and about to apply for my BOSOZ PSU as shown below. Have you ever tried this? I could have my own experiment; however, knowing your experience would be a great help. Thanks.
JH |
jh6you,
nice to hear something from the XSOZ forum.
today i took the time and soldered .33 ohm resistors in front of the rectifiers and listened what happened.
the result is difficult to hear/say: on the one side it sounded clearer and more direkt, on the other side it sounded colder. I think the differences are not easy to explain.
perhaps the listening test was biased by myself. there`s always the psychlogical aspect in those things. i try to stay unbiased and be very sceptical to all changes and improfements.
Regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| gnomus |
For your pre amp you may want to improve your power supply as in the pass pearl phono stage. Text taken from pearl information page 3. There is a picture there but I could not figuar how to paste it.
"In this example, the AC line is filtered by two 4.7 ohm 1/2 watt resistors and by a 0.1 uF film capacitor rated at AC line voltages. A good example is Digikey part P4603-ND. This filter is not essential."
The resistors are in series with the primary of transformer and the capacitor is in parallel.
You can never have too much filtering in your power supply. |
|
|
| jh6you |
Paul
Thanks.
Attached is the picture.
The comment, This filter is not essential, might be a description of self-confidence.
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
| quote: | ... sounded clearer and more direct ... sounded colder...
Psychological aspect ... |
Hi Ralf,
The clearance and directness seem to always coordinate the coldness. And vise versa.
As shown in the attached diagram, a target of a sound quality always exists in my mind. Whenever I do change, improve, simplify or append parts of my amps, I meet end results, and I might get a positive quality development. But, if the development is unfortunately minor and reaches below my target quality line, the development is often disregarded. This is my perception of the developments.
To my BOSOZ, I just applied the Pearl filter. Now I understand the words saying, This filter is not essential.
Regards
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
Hi
I have strengthened PSU of BOSOZ with six 5.2R (0.6w) and one 0.1uF (670v).
I feel the sound as if the voices and musical instruments were smoothed by the
touch of very fine sandpaper. I would like to recommend this cheap and effective
filtering.
JH
PS. I measure the output voltages of +28.9 and -28.5v. |
|
|
| ralf |
Hi,
last night i finished two new XboSoz pcb`s and the modification to Xsoz as Hendrik did.
four weeks ago i decidde to build jh6you`s version, but after deciding to build aleph x in next project, i dropped it and build henriks version.
in henriks version i used non exotic parts, standard metall resistors and the coupling caps of XBsoz are MKP types,not expensive, which i had on hand. The caps in my original BSoz are super exotic and wxpensive types!!
the caps in XSoz are cheap electrolytics (220uF).
the first listening impressions, without burning in time was a more relaxed, more detailed sound and all aspects henrik described in his listening impressions.
Henrik, how can i increase gain in the xbsoz/ Xsoz, without avoidng the loop devices
regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| Henrik |
Congratulations Ralf!
You can increase gain in XBOSOZ by increase R122/123.
This wil influence the outputimpedance as well, not that I think it will be a problem.
As I recall, You couldn´t exploit the full power from Your SOZ, is this still the problem as You described it then?
If You could post a scematic with all informations, I could make some sims for You, and see if I could find Your problem(s), also info about the signalsources You uses.
By the way, I am rebuilding both my XBOSOZ and XSOZ with the best parts, Audionote tantal resistors, Holco powerresistors MP930 and Blackgate nonpoler types, wired P2P on veroboard.
When I have finished I will post some pictures.
It would be great if You builded the Aleph-X, then we could get some comparation to the XSOZ. Nothing beats A/B tests. |
|
|
| ralf |
| quote: | Originally posted by Henrik
Congratulations Ralf!
You can increase gain in XBOSOZ by increase R122/123.
This wil influence the outputimpedance as well, not that I think it will be a problem.
As I recall, You couldn´t exploit the full power from Your SOZ, is this still the problem as You described it then?
If You could post a scematic with all informations, I could make some sims for You, and see if I could find Your problem(s), also info about the signalsources You uses.
By the way, I am rebuilding both my XBOSOZ and XSOZ with the best parts, Audionote tantal resistors, Holco powerresistors MP930 and Blackgate nonpoler types, wired P2P on veroboard.
When I have finished I will post some pictures.
It would be great if You builded the Aleph-X, then we could get some comparation to the XSOZ. Nothing beats A/B tests. |
o.k.
you tell me if better parts improve the sound, and i build an aleph x with standard parts.
Meanwhile i added glimmer and styroflexes to the coupling capacitor in my new XBsoz, but i hear no difference, like in my BSoz: there i did not hear a diffrence between good caps and extreme good caps like Jensen paper in oil.
Ralf |
|
|
| Henrik |
Deal, I will tell what happens with the better parts and You build the Aleph-X an tell about that.
I will make the XBOSOZ first and then the XSOZ.
A pittie that I can´t make real A/B tests between all the better parts and the usually ones, since the old XBOSOZ will dissapear in favour of the new and, I hope, even better one.
May be Your observations on adding better coupling caps will stand, let´s se what happens. I have heard, that sometimes it makes things worse when coupling caps in parallel, it shoud depend of the mix of types, I think I have got that from Audionote once. |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
Let me tell you about caps. I was experimenting yesterday with input caps on my Aleph X. I wanted to cross it at around 120Hz for mids and tweeter high pass. The value I needed was around 0.06uF. Since I didn't have one cap of that value I had to parallel two. I settled on VTV Ultratone silver foil paper in oil type and Jensen polystyrene. Both of them have outer foil marked, so I soldered them together in that order. It came to me that it might be worthwile to check them in circuit both ways (outer foil to input and inner foil to input). I was switching for an hour and couldn't decide. There was quite a big difference between both polarities. One way it sounded very soft and laid back, kind of pleasing, the other way more bright and etched with better defined vocal, but also more fatiguing. Eventually I decided on the first choice. The music I was using for testing was soft rock like Dire Straits, Pink Floyd and some Dylan. So I was more than happy that I finally made decision and I put a different kind of CD in a player: my favourite industrial recordings. And here I was for a big surprise. The music sounded way different to what I was used to. Out of focus, out of phase, simply one big mess and unaccaptable. So I got only one more thing left to do; I reversed one cap in ea. pair and soldered it together. Another big surprise. With this combination, everything came to focus and started to sound properly with beautifuly defined top end, detail and vocal that sounded real. Also the rock recordings sounded better than before, and this time the choice was obvious and better than previous two alternatives.
I also tried MIT RTX, but it was no competition and sounded dull. Jensen Pure Copper foil paper in oil, while better than MIT wasn't either a competion for my pair, lacking detail and sounding flobby.
With a high resolution system not only the different sound of capacitors is pretty obvious but also their polarity is easy to distinguish. Joel, are you reading this?;) |
|
|
| Henrik |
That´s a story to tell!:yuck:
There we have it again, the true and never ending audiophile anxiety. :headbash:
But is this magic only related to caps in parallel?
Wich way shall I turn my 220uF BlackGate type N in my XBOSOZ, it is hard to test, since I have to mount them on my board before I can do that? They are said to be nonpolarized, but are they sonically polarized?:irked: |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
Since you are probably building stereo version, do one channel one way and second channel the other way and compare.
BTW, which is the latest schematic for XBOSOZ. I'd like to build it too, but lost the track.;) |
|
|
| Henrik |
| By the way, my caps in my XBOSOZ is not 220uF as I said before, they are 47uF/50v, but the problem still stands. |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| Thanks for the links. Do you really need such big values? I was hoping to be OK with 2 or 4uF maximum. |
|
|
| ralf |
...i will experiment further with som caps i`ll get in a week.
and perhaps polarizing/depolarizing the bypasses.
Unfortunately, i cannot use 47uF jensen paper in oil copper ones - the price is too high!!! in Moment i use 33uF.
But i will also experiment with the 220uF in XSoz.
the layout of the pcb is equal the schematic of Henrik and herewith - symmetrical -
to the listening test today: sound is really diffrent to original soz/bosoz. it`s clearer and really more detailed, hearable on many music titles.
it` all souns a bit more higher than with originals.
its even more dynamic and forced. the music comes more direct and its more live.
i hope aleph x will top this.
one is clear- i dont want to go back to original SOZ/BOsoz but i will own them in future for listening tests. I hope the sound will get better by using better parts like henrik will do. |
|
|
| Henrik |
No.
It depends on the inputimpedance of the poweramp, my XBSOZ is verry low it has 120 Ohm as I remember.
On the originally bosoz Nelson used 10uF, but You migt be able to lover it some more.
But remember, this time the cap is inside the feedbackloop, so much of the sins comitted are cancled in the X.
It is too late in the evening for me to do some sims.
If You like, I could do some sims to morrow on the XBOSOZ and the Aleph-x to calculate the minimum size of the cap. Let me know. |
|
|
| Henrik |
My "no" and the rest was ment as replie to Peter Daniel
Ralf
33uF in XBOSOZ is the best choice.
Nice to hear about Your expieriences! |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| Thank you, but I will check it in real world anyway (you know, the sonics;)). I usually use caps I have on hand and I colected quite a few of them over the years.;) I will be building both of your X SOZ and BSOZ. I was always hoping that SOZ sounds better than Aleph. I will see.;) |
|
|
| Henrik |
Peter
Great that You will try the XSOZ too. |
|
|
| jh6you |
Hi Peter Daniel
Your description about the coupling capacitors is good enough to inspire my interest. I am however included in the group who is talking about no difference in the sound. My perception is based on my personal experience upon certain amount of money spent for different caps. I agree that if we change parts, there are changes in the sound. But, how big difference is a real concern. If there is minor difference, I say no difference immediately. You are saying: “One way it sounded very soft and laid back, kind of pleasing, the other way more bright and etched with better defined vocal, but also more fatiguing.” So different...?!?! Are you implying Aleph-X can produce fatiguing sound in case of improper choice of capacitors? I hope not.
Once I tested with Hovland cap (actually, I still have Hovland, Icel, ERO, Wima and Solen). And, I tend to agree that there was somewhat laid-back sound. By the way, in order to test my curiosity certain time later, I returned back to the original cap. Surprisingly, I had the almost same laid-back sound. Probably, there is another factor working to my perception of the sound. I believe it is a time factor. My case is that at the beginning, I might have a feeling of different sound from the different caps, but after certain time, I am getting to have the feeling of no difference. It is very funny.
Experts advised me saying: “If you change this, you will get the laid-back and smooth sound.” Then, I excited and started to dream the sound as described. But, almost always I was disappointed. Probably, my criteria of the sound difference were critical considering the amount of money I spent.
I hope you will not say that Aleph-X produces the fatiguing sound. If really so, build another one. ;) You know that these days I am enjoying CDs of live rock music. I am enjoying New World of the sound, brightness, details, textures and 3D soundstage, for instance with Nirvana Unplugged, of course, no fatiguing sound. With no particular caps...
Peter, I might be too much subjective...
JH |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
When I said fatiguing, it was only related to comparison with the other option, right after immediate change, and in absolute terms it probably wasn't.;) Remember that tests like this are very stressfull and I would be happy if I didn't have to do it, yet, when once experienced and the difference is observed, there is no way out. You just have to do it as long untill you find the right choice. It all depends on your system and probably in many cases it's not that obvious. But as I said, with certain choice of capacitor setup I couldn't listen to industral music, because it sounded that bad. But it was not the amp, but the caps, and although they sound OK now, I still think that without those caps the amp will sound much better. I think that difference in the sound of capacitors is more obvious than difference in sound of Solder Alloys.
You should also know that industrial music is only for industrial people, so don't blame the amps.;) ;) |
|
|
| jh6you |
I agree but in somewhat different way that the difference in sound of capacitors is feasible with better possibilities than the difference in sound of solder alloys. More concretely, I do not believe there is difference in sound of solder alloys.;)
It is good to hear that Aleph-X has a beautiful essence without special make up.
What is the industrial music? Do you mean the music produced through the industrial equipment? I would like to know where I am.
JH |
|
|
| Nelson Pass |
Oh yeah, Industrial: The music that takes out Raven
tweeters.
Ravens last a lot longer on Trip Hop.
;) |
|
|
| jh6you |
Thanks, I got two definitions about the industrial music:
(1) I believe you are approaching this from a fundamentally flawed position, i.e. that 'industrial' is a definable scene or musical style. 'Industrial' is really nothing more than a catch-all phrase for any music that is created with extreme amounts of electronics and a harsh flavor. It cannot be used to typify any specific sound or lifestyle.
(2) Industrial Music is a type of popular music characterized by heavy percussion, synthesized or electronic melodies, distorted and/or manipulated vocals, and cut-and-paste construction. It is often the product of 'angry white young men,' resonating primarily with themes of alienation, anger, pain, oppression, and control. Often danceable, industrial music has noticeable repetitive rhythms and chant-like choruses, which are often played out in variations of a traditional AABA song structure.
During my reading the above two, about the character of a harsh flavor grasps my eyes. All right, you need to soften the harsh flavor. But, if you make the hash flavor soft and sweet ;), you might loose the core of the industrial music.
JH |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| It is my experience, that when DAC, amp and speakers are voiced properly, any type of music sounds properly as well.;) |
|
|
| jh6you |
Oh, here is a good example of the Industrial.
| quote: | Oh yeah, Industrial: The music that takes out Raven
tweeters. |
Peter
I agree. For example, I have four vocals at home. Three males and one female. All of their voices are terrible, particularly the female, and so all type of music are improper. You may laugh, but not loudly please, the female voice will become harsher flavor.
;)
JH |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
I agree: there are all types of improper music, but they still can sound properly (to a certain degree of course).
When I was testing capacitors I wasn't using industrial type of music, but mainstream rock: Dire Straits "On every Street" (seems to be well recorded) and Pink Floyd "The Wall" (another example of good recording. I've been using those 2 CDs for many years and since I am familiar with the sound of certain tracks (6 and 3 correspondingly) I didn't find the need to look for anything else. As I said it took me an hour or two of critical listening and reversing the caps and eventually I compromised and chose one setting which seemed more natural sounding to me. Only when I switched to industrial recordings, I found out how inapropriate my choice was. Which only means that industrial music is even more demanding when it comes to critical listening;) . I then reversed the paralleled caps in relation to ea. other and I finally found what I was looking for in both types of recordings. No more compromises with Pink Floyds. Also, Bob Dylan's voice finally started to sound 'properly' on 'Desire' album (Hurricane is probably my favourite Dylan's song;).
I'm not saying this to convince you that capacitors sound different or one type of music is better then the other. I just made an interesting experiment yesterday and I thought some people might be interested or it may be useful to others, experimenting with similar things in audio.
It also doesn't say anything about the amplifier used, because properly designed and executed amp, amplifies only what comes to its input and presents it at its output. If something is here to blame, it's probably too much free time on my hands.;) |
|
|
| jh6you |
| quote: | | … Also, Bob Dylan's voice finally started to sound 'properly' on 'Desire' album. |
I am an unseen fan of him. I have listened to his music long.
His album Love and Theft? I have listen to it with Zen and ZenV2. It is however with my new amps for me to re-appreciate his real voice, harsh but authoritative as well as apathetic but enthusiastic. No doubt, your talk about the Bob Dylan’s voice explains how good the sound of Aleph-X is.
While you blame your free time, I blame my lack of time.
JH |
|
|
| ralf |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
It is my experience, that when DAC, amp and speakers are voiced properly, any type of music sounds properly as well.;) |
...you say it...
i made same experiences.
Ralf |
|
|
| ralf |
Hi, last week i had the chance to test the comlete equipment of a friend:
he has just bought this speakers for $10.000, the tube amps and tube pre ams for §9.000, cd player for $2500... all together (with cables and small parts) about $25.000.
And i just build my own speakers and the pass /modified X amps.
Result:mine sound really superb. Not, that the $25.000 equipment sounds bad - no- it really sounds very good. but when i think to the money i spend - my equipment is really extraordinary good. In many aspects mine are better, except of the max volume - but i dont need that loud as Ono`s can play.
And the end is not reached.... ;)
This is an encourging for those who have doubt about reaching that super sound of a superexpensive high-end equippment with diy -ing
thanks to those who are enabling this great forum.
regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| ralf |
| quote: | Originally posted by Henrik
Congratulations Ralf!
You can increase gain in XBOSOZ by increase R122/123.
This wil influence the outputimpedance as well, not that I think it will be a problem.
It would be great if You builded the Aleph-X, then we could get some comparation to the XSOZ. Nothing beats A/B tests. |
with what values would you start? is 100k o.k or should i go higher -or lower?
Ralf |
|
|
| Henrik |
You will double the gain by using 100K, and then You will still have a lot of feedback to the X. If it gives You the needed power, then try lover it as much as You can.
I am happy to read about Your tests against $25.000 equipment.
I have never done this as real swiching A/B tests, but I have had similar expieriences when I have ben listening to others HighEnd gear.
Diy is nice! :D |
|
|
| Henrik |
| But You will lower the higend rolloff to -3db at 50kHz (at 39K -3db at 100KHz), this could be audible, so be aware of this when You try it out! |
|
|
| Henrik |
Ralf
I You reach a usable gainlevel by adjusting R122/123, but You then miss some clarity in the high end, let me know, perhaps I can give You some advise on how to raise the high end roll off.
The problem is the lowered outputimpedance from XBOSOZ in combination with the inputcapacitance of the mosfets in the XSOZ, this relation is the hard one to beat. |
|
|
| ralf |
o.k i will go to 47k
i need only a little bit more gain. You know, my poti stands on 2 o-clock pm, with my original bosoz (R15 set to 80 Ohms) my pot stands eleven o`clock. And my goal is eleven o`clock.
i try it out. if sound goes bader i will go back to 39k.
thats the reason why i want to go for aleph x.
Whats to say about the parts of my XSOZ: i use two transformers 1500 va, capacity multipler circuit with about 50000uf, Vishay dale power resistors, 50w, shared to 6 resistors of 47Ohms to get 8 Ohm.
i have a variac in front of the two 1500 va transformers, with which i control the power of the both SOz.
the variac can deliver 8 or 10 amps.
when i turn the knob of the variac to 12 o`clock the volume on loudspeakers increases hearable. the same more volume, when i turn the knob to 3 o`clock. but when i turn the knob to 6 or nine o´clock p.m. the speakers dont get louder.
Do you think it`s a power delivery - lack in my psu?
at 12 o`clock the transformers get from my variac about 60volts, tht means my transformers give to the amp about 9 volts, at 3 o`clock they have about 17 volts and so on.
do you think that my variac cannot deliver enough power and thats the reason why the power only increases until the knob is turned half?
or can it be that my virtual battery psu is to weak?
....
regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| Henrik |
Ralf
May be I woun´t be able to answer Your questions until to morrow.
You can make the XBOSOZ able to have higer gain at the same outputimpedance, but then You need to recalculate some other parts. But the essence is, that You try to raise the gain with R122/123, this tells how much gain You need, afterwords we raise the the high end rolloff if nessesary.
So try 50K to 100K and lets see what happens. |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by ralf
i need only a little bit more gain. You know, my poti stands on 2 o-clock pm, with my original bosoz (R15 set to 80 Ohms) my pot stands eleven o`clock. And my goal is eleven o`clock.
i try it out.
|
I don't see a reason why you want more gain. If you would have to go to 5 o'clock position and not have enough volume, that would be understandable. But what's wrong with 2 o'clock versus 11 o'clock, you still are not using the full capabilities of your preamp. Unless you prefer the subjective look of the position of the pot;).
My pot at the DAC's output is usually at 4 o'clock and it doesn't bother me at all.:) |
|
|
| UrSv |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
My pot at the DAC's output is usually at 4 o'clock and it doesn't bother me at all.:) |
I agree with Peter. I sometimes go to a quarter past four and I wouldn't think twice about going to five o'clock...
/UrSv
PS. Maybe it helps that I am in Sweden and that when you guys have you pot at 4 mine is actually at 16 :bigeyes: |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by UrSv
PS. Maybe it helps that I am in Sweden and that when you guys have you pot at 4 mine is actually at 16 :bigeyes: |
Actually I could present it in 24 hours system, because my Elma switch has exactly this many positions.;)
I also think that it's useless waste of gain to keep the pot at 11 o'clock. Too much gain may affect the sonics as well. |
|
|
| UrSv |
Again I agree with Peter.
On the off-topic topic then, Peter...
When it is midnight, would you have it in the 24 position or the 0 position? I know which one my neighbors prefer...
/UrSv |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| I'm still used to more conventional pot setting, so at midnight the pot would be exactly at center position (12 position). |
|
|
| Henrik |
| If it is only a question on pot. position I wouldn´t raise the gain at all, I agree with Peter and UrSv. |
|
|
| Henrik |
Ralf
Two simple questions:
Can You drive Your XSOZ to the point of clipping with Your XBOSOZ (r122/123 = 39K)?
What is the voltage of Your power transformer? |
|
|
| ralf |
..yes i can bring it to clip, at 4 to 5 o`clock, max is 5 o`clock. the volume difference between 2 o`clock and 4 o`clock is not much.
it`s more a psychlogical thing to have a bit in reserve.
but you all are right - 2 o`clock is enough. i think, when my XSOZ is driven to 30 -40 watts all would be done.
today i lend me a digital camera to take a few pics of my XBOZ and XSOZ as some of early states of my diy CD player, but since i use linux in moment i need to wait until tomorrow to get the pics out of the camera to my XP-Pc in my Office, then i`ll show you....
Today i have made more listening tests and i can definitely say XBsoz with Xsoz is way better than original - wow -i`m really impressed. I never heard such good Musik.
unfortunally the XBsoz are somehow different, cause imaging is not exactly in the middle. I matched all Transistors and both pcb`s are identical - except of two caps in one pcb, they are build-in wrong. It would be curious, if that would be the reason...i`ll see...
In future i will compare with more expensive equipment, but i need to such people im my region, which have such expenive tools.
Really good work Henrik!!!
Regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| gnomus |
I have an adjustable power supply for SOZ. Going to 50 watts of power does not increase the volume very much from about 20 watts. Its pretty much a waste to build a 50 watt SOZ. All you get is lots of heat. A 10 watt SOZ is about the lowest you can go with ordinary speakers many of which are around 4 ohms. With that you will get nasty raspy sounds from your speakers as the SOZ hits its limit on hard musical peaks with the volume cranked up . Below ten watts will require those special speakers used for low watt single ended type tube amps. Or keep the volume down. It will play and sound great on most speakers but it has its limit. And does sound better on and more alive on speakers that are an easy load. I use an old conrad johnson PV9A tube peramp that has loads of gain. So I can crank it up with volume to spare.
I will try to X my SOZ one day. But, I am not sure from reading the thread what is the best cap and resistor values to use. |
|
|
| Henrik |
Ralf
It is so nice that You can clip at 4 or 5 o´ clock, then You get all You need from Your XSOZ.
Let us se som pics!
Gnomus
I am using 15 Ohm speakers 95db sensitivity and only 8 Watt XSOZ, and that is more power than I need in my (little) listening room.
A 50 watt soz is quite a lot especially in terms of heat.
The double outpower in terms of watt just gives You the sensation of a little more, not much.
I agree. |
|
|
| Henrik |
| quote: | Originally posted by gnomus
I will try to X my SOZ one day. But, I am not sure from reading the thread what is the best cap and resistor values to use. |
If You do, then be shure to use some preamp capable of driveing a load of 120 Ohm singleended! |
|
|
| Nelson Pass |
| quote: | Originally posted by gnomus
I am not sure from reading the thread what is the best cap and resistor values to use. |
Pretend this is a Nike ad. (just do it)
Get going with something crappy (or marginal).
Then rejoice at the improvement when you put in
something better.
:cool: |
|
|
| jh6you |
Go with something crappy... ???
To go with something crappy, last night I dusted off my 3-way 8-ohm 97-dB horn speakers. And fed them power of BOSOZ and XSOZV2. The sound came out effortless and louder. I did this trial to taste top frequency quality of the “industrial” music and movie soundtrack. My first observation was that the gain of the amps was too high for my room space. Therefore, I lowered the gain of BOSOZ from 10dB down to 6dB. And I started to taste the top frequencies. I expected crappy top, but it was not. There were somewhat edges (mainly due to low distortion, I think). The edges however were not ear-piercing, but as much as harsh flavour intended for music. Finally, I decided to keep my Ariel speakers in the storeroom. It was also according to recommendation of my two boys living together.
Yeah, it is good if something crappy turns out something good by chance or by painless effort.
JH |
|
|
| Henrik |
Hi all!
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Let me tell you about caps. I was experimenting yesterday with input caps on my Aleph X. I wanted to cross it at around 120Hz for mids and tweeter high pass. The value I needed was around 0.06uF. Since I didn't have one cap of that value I had to parallel two. I settled on VTV Ultratone silver foil paper in oil type and Jensen polystyrene. Both of them have outer foil marked, so I soldered them together in that order. It came to me that it might be worthwile to check them in circuit both ways (outer foil to input and inner foil to input). I was switching for an hour and couldn't decide. There was quite a big difference between both polarities. One way it sounded very soft and laid back, kind of pleasing, the other way more bright and etched with better defined vocal, but also more fatiguing. Eventually I decided on the first choice. The music I was using for testing was soft rock like Dire Straits, Pink Floyd and some Dylan. So I was more than happy that I finally made decision and I put a different kind of CD in a player: my favourite industrial recordings. And here I was for a big surprise. The music sounded way different to what I was used to. Out of focus, out of phase, simply one big mess and unaccaptable. So I got only one more thing left to do; I reversed one cap in ea. pair and soldered it together. Another big surprise. With this combination, everything came to focus and started to sound properly with beautifuly defined top end, detail and vocal that sounded real. Also the rock recordings sounded better than before, and this time the choice was obvious and better than previous two alternatives.
I also tried MIT RTX, but it was no competition and sounded dull. Jensen Pure Copper foil paper in oil, while better than MIT wasn't either a competion for my pair, lacking detail and sounding flobby.
With a high resolution system not only the different sound of capacitors is pretty obvious but also their polarity is easy to distinguish. Joel, are you reading this?;) |
I was just looking for some explanation on the phenomena above described by Peter.
I found this description on the "Super E-Caps" from BlackGate on the site http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/bgecaps.html
| quote: | Canceling resonance frequency by using the characteristics of Black Gate-N
Jelmax has developed a new system which uses a pair of two BG-Ns of the same voltage and capacity in such a way that their internal inductances (L) canceled each other by utilizing the mechanical characteristic of the BG-N using a rolled pair of electrode foils of the same area and same mechanism set fact to face, and thereby, allows the pair to function as a single ideal capacitor called “Super E-Caps”.
|
I think that what Peter expirienced when he paralleled the two capacitors by connecting outer foil to inner foil was the same (more or less) cancellation of induction, and when he connected innerfoil to innerfoil and outer foil to outerfoil he expierienced the additive interaction of two induction sources. May be, may be not, but I think so?
But I asked my local Audionote dealer if there is some sonical polarization in BlackGate type N, and he said no from personally expierience. More important, he also told me, that if two is used in parallel, You defently have to couple "outer foil to inner foil" and this sounds better than just one. |
|
|
| ralf |
that could explain the curiosity with my XBsoz.
Next days i will try and polarize two of my mkp`s other way round..
Regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| ralf |
| ..first the pcb of old BOSoz: |
|
|
| ralf |
..on selfmade heatsinks, you see the top only.
pcb`s are not build in a case yet, cause there will certainly come some modificatios, till i am fully satisfied with the sound... |
|
|
| ralf |
| ...which i can compare to my Watt/Puppies... |
|
|
| Henrik |
Hi ralf
Some nice speakerdesigns!
You most certainly need som nice boxes for Your amps.
By the way, how long is Your XSOZ-heatzink?
How much voltage do You use for the XBOSOZ? |
|
|
| ralf |
Henrik,
the heatsinks are allmost finished on the pic.
on XSoz i use up to +-35 Volts ( up to about 18 watts)
each 8 ohm resistor is realized by paralleling 6 47Ohm /50watts vishay/dale`s
on XBosoz i use +- 60 volts
Ralf |
|
|
| jh6you |
Hi Ralf
Your pictures express very good systematic arrangement.
I suppose the sound must be great too.
In addition, your speaker cable attracts me. DIY? What kind?
JH |
|
|
| ralf |
| quote: | Originally posted by jh6you
Hi Ralf
Your pictures express very good systematic arrangement.
I suppose the sound must be great too.
In addition, your speaker cable attracts me. DIY? What kind?
JH |
thank you,
the speaker cable is also diy and extremely good, but it takes very much time -and blisters to make. i found hardly a cable which was better.
you get informations at http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html
regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| CH2 |
Hi NP, jh6you, Henrik, ralf and all
Thanks for all the sharing. I have learn alot from you guys. :)
I intend to build jh6you version of XBSOZ and have a few questions. I am not electrically trained, please forgive me if my questions are too ignorant.
1. Is it ok if I use 2 number of 2x18v, 60va instead of 2x30v?
2. If I would like to increase the regulated voltage to 40v, would I need to change any of the value in the circuits?
Thanks in advance
Cheers
CH2:) |
|
|
| ralf |
| quote: | Originally posted by CH2
Hi NP, jh6you, Henrik, ralf and all
Thanks for all the sharing. I have learn alot from you guys. :)
I intend to build jh6you version of XBSOZ and have a few questions. I am not electrically trained, please forgive me if my questions are too ignorant.
1. Is it ok if I use 2 number of 2x18v, 60va instead of 2x30v?
2. If I would like to increase the regulated voltage to 40v, would I need to change any of the value in the circuits?
1. ..should work
2...i think you need one zener more to get about 40 V
but why do you want to go to 40V?
regards,
Ralf
Thanks in advance
Cheers
CH2:) |
|
|
|
| ralf |
..as i told you that in my new X the sound does not come exactly in the middle...
i reversed the two caps ,which were build-in other way round and the soundstage is homogenious and singers are exactly placed in teh center - if the source tells that.
if i didnt make this experience i would`nt believe.
I never will reverse caps in signal path and elsewhere...unbelievable.... :bigeyes:
but true.
regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
Didn't I tell you?:spin:
Now, Henrik, it seems like you are really into it too. I checked again my caps and it appears that both of my paralleled caps have the outer foil facing the load (amp's input). When I mixed inner with outer on both caps it didn't sound good, also both outer foils facing the preamp didn't sound well. On Aleph X the cap connecting negative input with the ground also affects the sonics the same way as the other cap.
Michel Percy also recommends to orient the caps with outer foil towards the load. |
|
|
| jh6you |
Ralf and Peter:
The caps move the position of singers to the center...?!?!
CH2:
One more 9.1V zener is necessary as Ralf commented. The increased regulated 40V
will help for less distortion in sound as Mr Nelsen Pass indicated.
JH |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by jh6you
Ralf and Peter:
The caps move the position of singers to the center...?!?!
|
Some caps can actually do that.;) |
|
|
| jh6you |
Those caps are efficient than me as I move myself with the chair to get the singer at the center.
;)
JH |
|
|
| Henrik |
Parallelling caps is quite a more complex buisnes as expected!
The induction/resonans produced in each cap seems to interplay in different ways and with different results.
:joker: |
|
|
| ralf |
| quote: | Originally posted by jh6you
Ralf and Peter:
The caps move the position of singers to the center...?!?!
CH2:
One more 9.1V zener is necessary as Ralf commented. The increased regulated 40V
will help for less distortion in sound as Mr Nelsen Pass indicated.
JH |
jh6you ,
since my english is not the best i can hardly explain that.
as you see in the pics of my XBosoz, the 33uF are realized with paralleling 5 6,8Uf MKP`s.
While i solderd them i did`nt recognize that i soldered two of them other way round, but i thought it woulnt matter.
In my listening tests i went with the chair to the left, because somehow the sound was moved to the richt channel, which i solded correct.
First i thought i should regulate down the richt channel input with a pot, but then i tried to correct the two Capacitors.
So i soldered the out turned them and listened again:
All is perfect now, the chair is in the center.
DONT ask me why, thats a strange experience for me, too.
Ralf |
|
|
| ralf |
Hi, this weekend i tested different MKP`s adding to the 220uF electrolytics.
although, Henrik told it wouldn`t matter, about the quality of this cap, because it is in the loop, i can tell, that there is a hearable difference, even they are soldered in other way round. The result is smoother without loosing details.
I also connected my Hiraga Le Monstre this weekend, and can say, that XSOZ with XBsoz now beats the hiarags in better 3 dimensional sound stage and resolution.
the same thing in the coupling capacitors of Xbsoz!
Problem is the price of high quality caps in the XSOZ and XBsoz loop.
How is the stadium of your`s , Hendrik?
Ralf |
|
|
| Henrik |
Hi Ralf
What I ment was, that even if the 220uF cap is crappy, the X sounds way better without the buffer made with high quality cap.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...9&pagenumber=17
At the moment I am rebuilding my XBOSOZ with:
Audionote 1W Tanalresistors
Holco MP930 powerresistors
47uF Blackgate BG-N
Also, I have bought some 220uF BG-N for my XSOZ.
I think I will finish XBSOZ and XSOZ in late december, I hope.
Meanwhile I will send some pictures.
Nice knowing we have beaten "le mostre" |
|
|
| jh6you |
Hi guys
I have a plan to make a new attenuator volume for my unbalanced-balanced converter pre, BOSOZ. In this area where I live, however, I hardly find audiophile-grade of rotary switches of 2x11 or 2x24. Even if I find them, the prices are not a joke. Meanwhile, I can easily get reliable quality of cheap rotary switches of 2x6. Therefore, I am thinking to use two sets of 2x6 rotary switches to make my new attenuator volume.
The following drawing and diagram are self-explanatory. By the way, if you foresee any problem or have any better idea, could I share it? Thanks.
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
| Curves of volume levels. |
|
|
| ralf |
jh6you,
the pot(24 stage) in my pics of xbsoz above costed 50$, and they are really good quality, but i dont know if they are availlable outside germany.
i bought it by www.steinmusic.de (english translation ist o.k)
I think he sells overseas.
But Question: (Henrik)
since i have XBSOZ and put my pot in the output of XBSOZ, there is a kracking by turning the knob, which wasn`t with my Bosoz.
Can anyone explain, why?
Ralf |
|
|
| Henrik |
Ralf
My pot is at the input, and that is for a reason.
Vol. pot at the output of the XBSOZ is not a very god idear because it will affect the outimpedance of the XBSOS when it is turned down and thus lover the highend rolloff at the XSOZ. The XSOZ is very sensitive to changes in impedance. You shoud try it at the input.
If You usese one at the output, then it shoud have a very low value, say 200 Ohm or so, it´s a guess since I haven´t calculated it.
The noice from Your attenuater could be some DC level, and it may also be solved if it´s at the input. |
|
|
| jh6you |
Ralf
If I compare XBOSOZ with BOSOZ, XBOSOZ has a feedback resister of 39k from the output. So, if the contact of the attenuator is opened when you turn the knob, the feedback voltage might be changed unexpectedly. I think that could be a reason of the sound, "click, click, click".
JH |
|
|
| Henrik |
Ralf
Is the "kracking" gone after say 1-10 min after turn on, because if this is the case, it coud be the 220uF in the feedback that charges up slowly, and when its charged there shoud be no DC. I have notised this before.
It could maybe also be an effect of the changing i impedance when turning the knob, but then it shoud be there all the time.
But I can tell, that mine isn´t doing this. |
|
|
| Henrik |
jh6you
As I recall, rotary switches (like Elma´s) used for potmeters should never stand open, they should keep contact, and in between two positions contact to two poles, otherwise I think You will hear some high "craks".
I don´t think Your construction is good, try to look at some examples done by others. |
|
|
| jh6you |
(1) I am using Elma of 2x11 positions. In between two positions, it stands open. I tested it.
(2) Why bad (technically)? Could you give me a brief reason?
JH |
|
|
| Nelson Pass |
| quote: | Originally posted by jh6you
(1) I am using Elma of 2x11 positions. In between two positions, it stands open. I tested it. |
You definitely want a make-before-break switch. |
|
|
| jh6you |
3:00AM? You kindly waked me up. Thanks.
No, not definitely, for me.
JH |
|
|
| Henrik |
| 2) the reason is, that if you slowly turn the knob, You want one volume level to go direct into the next, and not first into level zero and then the next. I should soud like a continuos shift from one level to another without any interruption. |
|
|
| ralf |
...thanks for the advise,
in my BOSOZ there was no crackling at all,
but in XBosoz there is.
it``s no Problem to connect it to the input of Xbosoz, (perhaps i try a Alps or panasonic in the output, but i think, those are not availlable withe 5k) but there is one disadvantage (for me): the noise.
If the pot is in the input you can hear some noise at the tweeter, because the fully bosoz /xbosoz gives his output to SOZ /XSoz., but when connected to output, the noise will only be hearable by turning the knob to 5 o`clock.
Henrik, what kind of power supply will you use for your XSoz?
Regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| Henrik |
Ralf
My XSOZ powersupply is somewhat different than what is normal for the SOZ.
I run it at a single rail supply, regulated with a kind of capacitance multiplyer. After the supply, I divides the rail with some resistors and couples them to an IC (Shame on me!!!) voltage follover and then some 220uF Blackgates, all this forms a virtual ground. This supply is silent, You cant hear any hum, shshsh or what ever, no nothing.
Any way, I will reconsider this solution once more.
When I turn on my XBSOZ I can only hear a little noise in the Dynaudio D28 tweeters, but only at a distance from 5-15 cm. |
|
|
| Henrik |
Ralf
At the input of XBSOZ You want 10K pot. |
|
|
| jh6you |
| quote: | | 2) the reason is, that if you slowly turn the knob, You want one volume level to go direct into the next, and not first into level zero and then the next. I should sound like a continuous shift from one level to another without any interruption. |
Thanks for your comment.
With my old but new speakers (8-ohm, 97dB, see the photo), usually I play moderate sound, by turning the volume up and down within 3-4 steps. Merely once in a while, I make loud sound.
My idea with Switch A/B attenuator is, eg, that for normal listening, I select 4.7k of Switch A and play the sound up and down within Switch B. Occasionally, however, I might select 1k of Switch A and play a bit louder sound up and down within Switch B.
Easy getting of 2x6 rotary switches at low cost is the first background, of course. ;)
I hope the switch A/B attenuator, even if not the best, will be feasible without technical problem. I will be happy with any further advice as this is only a plan yet.
Thanks again.
JH |
|
|
| ralf |
| quote: | Originally posted by Henrik
Ralf
My XSOZ powersupply is somewhat different than what is normal for the SOZ.
I run it at a single rail supply, regulated with a kind of capacitance multiplyer. After the supply, I divides the rail with some resistors and couples them to an IC (Shame on me!!!) voltage follover and then some 220uF Blackgates, all this forms a virtual ground. This supply is silent, You cant hear any hum, shshsh or what ever, no nothing.
Any way, I will reconsider this solution once more.
When I turn on my XBSOZ I can only hear a little noise in the Dynaudio D28 tweeters, but only at a distance from 5-15 cm. |
Henrik,
got any schematics of PSU and capacity multiplyer?
what will the voltag be, you drive your XSoz, mine is +-35V Dc in moment, but i use big heatsinks, and i think i kan go easy to -+45V.
Ralf |
|
|
| Henrik |
| I can post it in the evening, within 12 hours. |
|
|
| Henrik |
Ralf
I have attached the scematic of my setup for the SOZ, I have just changed the values and added new parts for the X-feedback.
The original reason for this kind of supply was, that I had two 2X33V 500VA torodial transformers, and I did my first testamp with them, and then they have bin there since.
I got the idear from www.lcaudio.dk in Denmark, they call this for "No noise ground" an they are still using this virtual ground in their preamps.
As I wrote before, I will consider this psu once more, but I am quite happy with it for now. |
|
|
| AMPMAN |
| Henrik, I thought that the point of andres supply was to eliminate large caps? also I do not see x in your diagram. |
|
|
| Henrik |
Ampman
You are right about Andreas consept, and at the moment the cap after the regulation is only 220uF BlackGate, wich makes a good job. But I have tried some Blackgate 4700uF 50 volt, and that makes some big difference, so I will use these when I rebuild my XSOZ. But before regulation You need more capacitance than Andrea uses in his setup, otherwis the deep bas will suffer, at least thats my expierience.
The reason why You dont se the X is because this is an old diagram of my former SOZ wich I have modified to an X, I only posted this diagram for the powersupply. You can find my XSOZ at this page http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...9&pagenumber=17 |
|
|
| ralf |
How much do you pay for the Audionote 1W Tanalresistors an where do you buy them?
Ralf |
|
|
| Henrik |
Ralf
As I se the "virtual battery" it is just a very effective ripple filter, nothing more.
I think Andrea Ciuffoli´s is better than the one from ESP, both regarding ripple rejection and load current max. because of the mosfet used. You gets a slow turn on because the 220uF cap has to charge through a 100K Ohm resistor, about 5-10 miniutes, also they forms a very low and effective lowpass filter that feeds the gate of the mosfet wich controels the voltage of the mosfetsource.
I bought the tantalumresistors from the Audio Note dealer in Copenhagen, and they cost about 7,50 Euro each.
You can find a dealer on Audio Notes homepage: http://www.audionote.co.uk |
|
|
|
