| jh6you |
UrSv and leide,
If we are wrong in English spelling, please indicate which one is incorrect.
If we are abusing the abbreviations, please kindly indicate it.
If you are confused with abbreviations, please directly indicate for us to use full names.
We will appreciate your indications, and we will correct them.
If you are really do not understand what we are doing here or talking about, I recommend you to read through this thread from the beginning. If you are really do not know Zen and its family, please read through the above passdiy webs. It will help.
Thanks. |
|
|
| leiade |
Done!
I will begin to search for some good ideas in the single ended planet do you think that the single ended designs are the very best today, I saw that John Curl use it in the Blowtorch so...maybe we are on rigth track, I wish that we could have an schematic part on this server where circuits ideas could be stored in one map.:) |
|
|
| jh6you |
| quote: | | You will proberly need a lower outputimpedance than the BSOZ provides, when You X it to XBSOZ You wil get that. |
It's clear now.
PS.
Henrik, if you do not mind, let's use BOSOZ (Bride of Son of Zen)
and XBOSOZ (Super Symmetry Bride of Son of Zen) for uniform
identifications. God dag! |
|
|
| Henrik |
jh6you
:bullseye: BOSOZ and XBOSOZ it is!
By the way, Your Danish has improoved indeed! |
|
|
| jh6you |
My new preliminary XSOZV2 finished.
Picture 1 |
|
|
| jh6you |
Here is the last picture.
Sound...? No sound. Dead sound.
I just measured 10mV DC at the output,
without connection of any pre amp.
This is all for the time being.
I need to modify my BOZ to XBOSOZ,
probably in few days.
Then, expectedly nice sound would be there.
JH |
|
|
| Henrik |
Great JOB!
This is the radical version of Point to Point wirering!
Is there "a hole" through this amp, I men can it actually say something, at least a hum when you touches or just comes near the input, and why not try some balanced resistor conversion from Your BOZ, just to be shure that somethig is able to come out of this machine.
I don´t know about You, but we need to know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have finished my testsetup for the different CCS, and to morrow I will tell about my experiences. |
|
|
| jh6you |
Thank you for the nice wording.
I hear only silence when I connect the amp to the speakers. No hum. No buzz. Nothing. I however do not know what will come when the pre is set.
I am old fashioned. I do not know about PCB. I always prefer p2p. The wiring is another joy in my DIY audio hobby. My wiring looks Spaghetti. The surface shape is however out of my interest. I am more interested in the basic principle, e.g. the symmetry. When I do wiring, I focus very much on the local and global symmetry even with the same girth length of wires. I also stick with the wiring good to supply clean electrons to the amplifier unit.
For this new XSOZV2, I applied the matching components to reinforce the symmetry. In this course, Nelson Pass¡¯s correction of my test method for the matching MOSFETs was great help. Thanks to him, I could avoid fooling me myself.
I am eager to read your test results about the various constant current sources.
Nice weekend!
JH |
|
|
| stefanobilliani |
good work ! I really like P2P wiring. Hum? mmmmh...
No hum , only good sounds. After days of work I've just finished a Aleph Ono , a Aleph P and Zens V2 . Wow!
Not to mention my diy turntable...Anybody interested?
Cheers Stefano |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| I prefer P2P too. Might not see correctly again;) , but it looks like caps are attached dirctly to metal plates. This way, they'll get a lot of heat from the chassis. Did you consider any spacers, just to keep them cooler? |
|
|
| Henrik |
This post became a little longer than it shoud, and maybe my spelling an phrasing is incorrect, but anyway, here it comes.
The CCS test.
A comparative test with 4 different CCS-tails and the original resistor-tail at my XBOsOZ coupled with my XSOZ. In all tests my XBOSOZ converted from unbalanced to balanced mode, so how the CCS´s will influence the sound in full balanced mode I still don´t know.
Conclusion.
The sonical guality of all the CCS´s I tried, was somewhat poorer tahn the original passive resistorbased tail, no doubt about that.
Validity.
This is an important issue, since so many constructions in this forum uses CCs´s, wether it is at the load or at the tail.
I think it is important to ephasize, that my statements is not to be taken in general, they are related to my XBOSOZ and XSOZ, but on the other hand, I for my part need to reconsider or more clearly specify the use of CCS´s after this.
X-benefit.
Nelson: "Henrik, it is not essential to have a constant current source bias for the diff pair to get X benefit, but it does help. If you are driving the circuit balanced, it is less necessary, but if you drive it single-ended, you really want the current source".
This was aimed at the XSOZ, that one is not to be driven unbalanced, and that´s for reasons others than the X-benefits. But when I read Nelsons patent I got the impression, that "constant current source bias for the diff pair" would give a more perfect match for better X-cancellation of noise and distortion at the final output at the speaker. I beleve this is true, and in my case this might also be so, but I must have traded some other qualities of when adding the CCS, so either my CCS´s isn´t good enough or I simply doesn´t get enough X-benefits compared to the sins comitted by the CCS.
I wonder if the Harry Haller CCS with LM329 and J505 would do a better job than the passive one?
BOSOZ and XBOSOZ as unbal. to bal. converter.
When the BOSOZ is used as a unbal. to bal. converter, it is often said, that You then need to run the diffpair CCS biased, otherwise the amplitude of the plus and minus otputs woun´t match, or match good enough.
I have used BOSOZ as a converter and SOZ as poweramp for some years. R15 was 350 Ohm, and I have never considered this as a problem. The amplitude at the undriven side was about 80% of the driven. So the mismatch at the output at the BOSOZ fails about 20%. But if You meashure the mismatch at the output of the SOZ, then the mismatch is < 1%, so in the end the match of the amplitude on both halves is almost perfect, and thus (I beleve) the cancellation of noise and distortion.
In this test, my XBOSOZ got 10% mismatch when converting, and at the output from my XSOZ it was still < 1%.
My conclusion on this conversion problem and the use of CCS must be, that You really don´t need the CCS for this in the XBOSOZ, on the contrary, they can make things worse.
The CCS´s.
The different CCS can be seen in the zip file attached.
CCS 01: Bipolar, biased at 30V.
CCS 02: Bipolar, biased at 54V.
CCS 03: Mosfet, biased at 55V.
CCS 04: IC current reg. LM317, and neg. V.reg. from -60 to -30V.
The best soundig was CCS 02.
The CCS 04 was the worst and gave a lot of audible noise.
My way of hearing.
When I make these tests, the only reference is my hearing, wich is something totally differet from wires, resistors, +-db, Hz, fireing electrons and so on. When I hear, it is not the viberation it self I hear,it is the sound of something, always specific and expressive in its caracter. The vibration comes to me, and my spirtit turns it into form, witch makes it a sound of something, even a tone or a melody played by a violin. This is the magic of form!
But besides from enjoying music, I also asks for specfic qualities, and they are mostly questions on how well my impression is formed.
The equipments capability to represent the 3 dimentional soundstage is very valuable to me. Some times when I hear music it is like I becomes blinded, and I need to substitute my lost vision by my ablility to se by means of the sound, like a soundscabe it coud be.
The quality of this soundscabe, my blinded and memorised expieriences of tactility and space, becomes the judge when to deside if I need this CCS or not. This I find verry odd, and one of the main reasons for my audio fanatism.
Testexample.
I did these tests with many different pices of music, but I will only make comments here from "Talking Timbuktu" of Ali Farka Toure and Ry Cooder as guitarist and producer.
This CD is extreemly well produced, and the soundstage is done with a lot of carefullness, I have heard this CD over and over, it brings the best up in me.
In the tests I focused on track 3 from 0:50 to 1:30.
At first, the soundstage is builded by Toures delicate and thin tones and som deep bass like rythm (I think the bass also comes from Toure) from his guitar at the right in a certain depth. Toures tones a sort of reflects into the left side as an almost non delayed eccho, but enough to give the impression that the sonud from the guitar fills a specified room in a certain movement. This kind of eccho is also implied in the performance of a sort of clapping on a calabasch, somthing wich sounds like cracked bamboo sticks on to some chairlike thing, and this crispy sound just travels on a kind of sphere over the stage from side to side, although the clapper stands in the back a littel against the right side. Almost in the mittle and in the back is placed a well focusd thin conga wich gently beats the rythm and gives the sensation of depth and drive.
Then under this sphere of Toures guitar and this calabash clapping man and just in front of the conga Ry Cooders remarkable guitar solo just forms a both reserved but mostly foreward flowing sound that is clearley limited to fill up a certain space, and form the birth of a living and ever changing multi colored beeing. He releases some big feelings, as only a true and vonderfull blues guitarist can do.
Ok, back to the CCS test.
The feeling of wideness, depth, crispiness, chairlikeness, cracked bamboo and living coloered beeings has become the parameter to judge the value of the CCS, and clearley in this case, they didn´t contribute to any extended expieriences compared to those given from the original passive ones.
Useually we are taught that we can´t mesure appels with satndards of oranges! But audio fanatics does, amen!
:judge: |
|
|
| jh6you |
| quote: | | This way, they'll get a lot of heat from the chassis. Did you consider any spacers, just to keep them cooler? |
Peter Daniel
No spacer. The maximum temp of heat sinks is measured about 15 degC above ambient temp. I have thought the temp is low enough. And, I have thought the heat sinks and the air inside chassis would have the similar temp. Anyhow, your advice about the spacer is deemed good value. I will try to install the spacer between the heatsinks and the bridge/cap platform. Thanks.| quote: | | I wonder if the Harry Haller CCS with LM329 and J505 would do a better job than the passive one? |
Henrik
Sheeeh... not Harry Haller, but post-HH.
I almost finished my BOSOZ with CCS tails. :bawling:
Most probably, I will come back within couple of days and talk about the sound of XSOZV2 after set up with BOSOZ having the CCS tails and also having the passive resistor tails.
By the way, would you let me know where is the CCS of post-HH? |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by jh6you
I have thought the heat sinks and the air inside chassis would have the similar temp. |
The best way to find out about that is by placing your hand inside the chassis and keeping it there for a while, then touching the chassis with your hand. Do you feel the difference? The transfer of heat from one object to another is much better when they are in contact, the air doesn't do it that well.
HH CCS is here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...15&pagenumber=6 |
|
|
| jh6you |
| quote: | | After days of work I've just finished a Aleph Ono , a Aleph P and Zens V2 . Wow! |
I also like Zen V2 very much. That could be a reason why the speed of my newbuilding of ZSOZV2 was slow.
| quote: | | The best way to find out about that is by placing your hand inside the chassis and keeping it there for a while, then touching the chassis with your hand. |
Peter Daniel
For the matter of safety and sensitivity, I might use wife's hand.
Let us look into the matter based on the first law of thermodynamics. If the chassis is tightly fitted and leakproof, I might be right. But, if the chassis has large air holes to outside space, you might be right. As my chassis is the latter case, you are right.
I will install the spacer. And, thank you for HH CCS.
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
Peter Daniel
If I see the deatail of the connection between the heat sink and the bridge/cap platform, it looks as in the figure.
The connection points are formd by four bolts only (at four conners). Do I need further separation? Any better idea based on your experience? Thanks.
JH |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| I'm experimenting myself with those issues. You could use plastic screws and spacers (plastic or fiberglass is not conducting heat as good as metal). But the best way is to use some non-metal spacers directly under the caps (with small area of contact). I would be interested myself what would the caps housing temp. compares now and when you decide to use spacers. |
|
|
| jh6you |
Peter, I will try the temperature comparison of caps as you
recommend.
:)
JH |
|
|
| AMPMAN |
| In BOSOZ you show the - input going to ground, where does it go in xBOSOZ |
|
|
| jh6you |
RW
If you are thinking of the unbalanced input, the - input is to go to the ground, according to my understanding.
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
Do not laugh please. Here is BOSOZ preliminary finished last night.
I was about to connect to XSOZV2, but I forgot to make the balanced
interface line. Therefore, no sound yet.
This is made with CCS tails, and for the unbalanced input and balance output.
In the power regulation circuit, I used IRFP240 and 9240 instead of
IRF610 and 9610. I just wanted to use the transistors I have.
JH |
|
|
| eLarson |
| quote: | Originally posted by jh6you
Do not laugh please. Here is BOSOZ preliminary finished last night.
|
Certainly there will be no laughing from me! As a fan of point-to-point wiring, I think it looks quite lovely.
On another note, the knobs look interesting. Do they have a rubberized grip ring around them? (A little off the beaten path, but I'm always looking for distinctive hardware...)
Erik |
|
|
| jh6you |
Hi Erik
Not rubber, but actually plastic having very fine teeth. To the
aluminium-skinned knob of small diameter, it provides good grip
and smart look. Sure the knob price is also cheap.
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
Ye...
XSOZV2 and BOSOZ(unbalanced in and balanced out) are interfaced.
CD player and speakers are set up too. Power is fed on.
I hear nothing. My ear is hitting the speaker corn. I still hear nothing. Leave it away one hour.
I put on CD, Ryan Adams, La Cienega Just Smiled. It starts playing. WHOA! NICE! NICE! NICE!
I put on another CD, Tracy Chapman, Fast Car. WHOA! NICE! NICE! NICE!
I select one classical music CD, Rachel Barton, violin, and Samuel Sanders, piano,
Homage to Pablo De Sarasate. WHOA! NICE! NICE! NICE!
I play DVD, Steven Spielberg, Saving Private Ryan. WHOA! The soundtracks kill me.
Tonight I will forget the X-circuit, CMRR, distortion cancellation, Spice model
simulation, frequency BW, ... I will just enjoy nice music, and wine...
I would like to describe the sound, but it is out of my ability. I do not know
how to describe. Okay, I will read a book, and week later, I hope I will find
right words to write down about the sound... In addition, I will post the circuit and
resistor values exactly as built...
:hphones:
JH |
|
|
| Henrik |
You certainly deserves all good music in the world and some good red wine too, and we are eager to read all about your machines and how they sound when your hangover is gone.
Cheers :drink: |
|
|
| AMPMAN |
| could you post diagram showing the connection from your rca plugs to the +/- inputs on xbosoz thanks. |
|
|
| ralf |
| quote: | Originally posted by jh6you
Ye...
XSOZV2 and BOSOZ(unbalanced in and balanced out) are interfaced.
CD player and speakers are set up too. Power is fed on.
I hear nothing. My ear is hitting the speaker corn. I still hear nothing. Leave it away one hour.
I put on CD, Ryan Adams, La Cienega Just Smiled. It starts playing. WHOA! NICE! NICE! NICE!
I put on another CD, Tracy Chapman, Fast Car. WHOA! NICE! NICE! NICE!
I select one classical music CD, Rachel Barton, violin, and Samuel Sanders, piano,
Homage to Pablo De Sarasate. WHOA! NICE! NICE! NICE!
I play DVD, Steven Spielberg, Saving Private Ryan. WHOA! The soundtracks kill me.
Tonight I will forget the X-circuit, CMRR, distortion cancellation, Spice model
simulation, frequency BW, ... I will just enjoy nice music, and wine...
I would like to describe the sound, but it is out of my ability. I do not know
how to describe. Okay, I will read a book, and week later, I hope I will find
right words to write down about the sound... In addition, I will post the circuit and
resistor values exactly as built...
:hphones:
JH |
jh6you,
what speakers do you use?
i understand, that someone who has just finished a new project may be enthusiasted.
I still fire SOZ and BOSOZ with absolutely best parts one can buy- with wilson audio Watt/Puppy speakers.
All people, who listened to my system say that it`s within the best they ever heard- regarding the price of making the Pass circuits. But i am overcritical, and think that there is space to improve. some instruments and voices could be better placed and the room between them could be better defined...and so on.
Cause of that reason i hope that i can improve the system by upgrading SOZ and BOSOZ to X.....
Has anyone else tested different xsoz schematics?
jh6you, when you come down after a few days and you have read a book with sound decription, it would be kindly of you to precise your listening impressions.
Nelson Pass and others: one more thanks for sharing know-how,
Regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| jh6you |
Hi Ralf
You have good speakers. I have two sets.These days I am listening to Ariel.
I am listening to CD, the pure voice of Emma Kirkby, DECCA DD 5903 460 583-2. It is now on Track 10, O let me weep!, Purcell. Her voice is really pure. I do not know where the song is recorded, but I guess it was in a church as thin hall tone is backing her voice. No digital smell at all, and sound more like a high-end tube amplifier.
To learn how to write down the sound on the paper, I am reading, Robert Harley, The Complete Guide to High-end Audio, Acapella Publishing 1994.
JH
PS
My as-built version of XSOZV2 has no negative feedback loop from the output to the input.
I believe Henrik tried both SOZ and XSOZ. Right Henrik? |
|
|
| ralf |
jh6you,
you build XSOZV2 Revision 5. of page 25 with original bosoz?
your XSOZV2 Revision 5 brings about 30 Watts?
What can one take instead of ztx450?
How did you adjust R4?
however, the speed of building your amps was mach5 - at least- (respect):bigeyes:
Regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| Henrik |
jh6you
Yes I have ben able to directly compare SOZ, XSOZ and XSOZ with a buffer.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...5&pagenumber=17
The XSOZ without buffer was clearley the best sonding, but it requiered the low ouputimedance from the XBOSOZ.
When You compare A wit B, then You get a clear answer, but how explain their relation to other onknowns, that is the hard question.
Ralf
It is easy to tryout the X on already build SOZ and BOSOZ. |
|
|
| jh6you |
Hi Ralf
Your questions are somewhat difficult, but I will do my best to put down the right answers.- XSOZV2 as-built is faintly different from Revision 5: C2 and R21 removed.
- Not original BOSOZ. Mine is on page 21 of this thread. But, R1 is changed to 750 and R15 reduced to 430.
- Maximum 25W unless Nelson Pass or someone else does not correct me.
- You can use MPSA42, MPSA18, 2N6517 (I used this) or equivalent.
- Adjust R4 of + input side in order to get the Q-voltage of about 18, and adjust R4 of - input side until I get to nearly zero DC volt between speaker terminals.
- My speed was Mach 6, and I got scars on my hands, and made wife lonely.
I hope my answers are to your satisfaction.
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
Hi Henrik
I have not thought about the input buffer from the beginning. My measure has been V = (results/number of element). I have pursued high value of V with low value of number of elements. I rarely do A/B test. I just draw my sound and music in mind, and try to get it. I might be quite subjective.
I agree that it is a hard question if any one asks me to compare mine with the reference I do not have.
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
Attached is as informed earlier.
BOSOZ/ as-built |
|
|
| jh6you |
continued...
XSOZV2/ as-built |
|
|
| jh6you |
BOSOZ and XSOZV2 / as-buily
To be able to describe the sound, I have read the book, The Complete Guide to High-end Audio, three times. It however does not help. I still can not describe the sound. I might articulate simply one word: ¡°THESOUNDISWONDERFUL.¡±
BOSOZ and XSOZV2 as-built give me wonderful sound and music for new CDs, no doubt. Therefore, I have tried to listen to three old-recorded CDs.- Beethoven, Violin Concerto ;Yehudi Menuhin; Orchestre Philharmonique de Berlin; W Furtwangler; Live 30 Sept. 1947
- Beethoven, Piano Concerto No.5 ¡°Emperor¡±; Eswin Fischer; The Philharmonia Orchestra; W Furtwangler; Feb. 1951
- Bellini, Norma; Maria Callas; Tullio Serafin; 1954
As you know well, these CDs are filled up with the excellent performance of music. But, recording quality is somewhat unfortunate, which has made me away from my frequent choice of listening. The new system, however, invites me to these CDs and brings me the music of the excellent performance to my emotion.
Have you listened to the set up of Nagra pre, KR enterprise tube power and Avantgarde Uno speakers? If so, we could share the same language. Nelson Pass and others, who have better systems, might laugh. If so, I would like to propose them to make one set and see.
There might be certain room for further improvement by better selection of resistor values or with nice bypass coupling film capacitors, or else. I could think about such things someday, but not now.
JH |
|
|
| ralf |
HI jh6you,
it`s really amazing, how you do want to describe the sound of your amps.
Whats about the description as: the singer can exactly be located in the middle between the speakers, about one meter (3 feets) behind, mouth in 5 feet high... The size of the singer is exactly as big, as in original...
guitar is left side two feet left of the left speaker.
each instrument has his size and color. The space between singer and instruments can exactly be defined with the ears... and so on.
But i think the psychological aspects are very tricky and many people hear that what they wish to hear.
Nevertheless i think your designed amps are worth to be build - and tested.
Whats with the other guy`s in the x-soz forum,
i think jh6you and hendrik are the only fews, wich share it in the moment?
the big advantage of this design is, that one do not need such big parts as the original SOZ, and cause of this reason very interesting for people like me, wo want to build more of them for going active- not payable with SOZ!.
Regards,
Ralf
What do others think about the amp of jh6you? |
|
|
| ralf |
jh6you,
would you describe the power supplies of the XSoz, how big are the transformers, the caps, etc..
the psu seems to be not symmetrical, only 32 volts against ground? but the picture of your amp shows two Caps, which tell me that the psu is symmetrical.
or do you use two psu`s in your amp and one cap for each channel?
did you match the irfp`s of Xbosoz and/or XZoz?
Ralf |
|
|
| Selfmade |
jh6you,
nice work. Have you builded a ZEN or SOZ before?
What is the sound of you XSOZV2 in comparison to ZEN or SOZ.
Is it possible to change the orig. BoSOZ to a good unbal. to bal. transformer by only changing the input like you did?
Günter |
|
|
| ralf |
| quote: | Originally posted by Selfmade
jh6you,
nice work. Have you builded a ZEN or SOZ before?
What is the sound of you XSOZV2 in comparison to ZEN or SOZ.
Is it possible to change the orig. BoSOZ to a good unbal. to bal. transformer by only changing the input like you did?
Günter |
Hi Günter,
when you read the former pages you will see, that he has no comparison to original SOZ, cause he has not build one.
In german: er hat keinen soz gebaut, deshalb ist es so schwierig aus seine klangbeschreibungen herauszufinden, ob er hiermit den SOZ getoppt hat.
Regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| jh6you |
Here is the PSU for BOSOZ.
You may use IRF610 for IRFP240 and IRF9610 for IRFP9240.
All matching pairs of MOSFETs are applied for both BOSOZ and XSOZV2.
Later, I will write down how the sound is different from Zen and Zen V2.
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
| quote: | would you describe the power supplies of the XSoz, how big are the transformers, the caps, etc..
the psu seems to be not symmetrical, only 32 volts against ground? but the picture of your amp shows two Caps, which tell me that the psu is symmetrical. |
Hi, Ralf
Here is PSU as built for XSOZV2. |
|
|
| jh6you |
| quote: | | Is it possible to change the orig. BoSOZ to a good unbal. to bal. transformer by only changing the input like you did? |
Hi Gunter
Yes, I think so if you do not mind the “asymmetric” balanced output signal swing. Nelson Pass, however, definitely recommend us to apply the constant current source tails instead of the passive resistors of the original BOSOZ, when we are going to use the unbalanced input. Reason: The CCS tightly backs up for the “symmetric” balanced output signal swing. I hope this info will be useful.
JH |
|
|
| stefanobilliani |
Ralf : I am another that soon will build and listen to the jh6you Xzen. Recently ,to start ,I try the ZenV2 and I'm pleased with the sound .It was the firt time I try the active current sources (Aleph cs in this case) . Then I converted the zen into Aleph.
Yes the Aleph has a good performance , i told to myself...
until I drive it with balanced signal: it begin to sound very good and much better than when I drive it unbalanced.
Jh6you, enjoy the music;) I'm sure that is most simple listen than describe sensations , although there is not doubt for me that the xzens will sound wonderful! |
|
|
| nar |
Hi Henrick,
I wish to compliment you first of all looking at the wonderful job you did in the X ZLS and X Son of Zen.By the way , also all other mates in the forum who contributed to get this project done.
...for your version dated 3 october 2002;
I have a few questions;Henrick , do you think your X ZLS would even do a good unbal to balanced converter?Even if I run it with gate of Q102 tied to ground for example? I wonder if the X benefits are acquired this way :confused:
Is it right that R 115 is now a piece of wire instead of a resistor?Which I would find right to get the X communication between the 2 halves for noise and distortion cancelation ?
I guess now Q101 and Q 102 must be matched pairs?
Do you think a CCS like the last one from JHyou would help for unbalanced input? Then we would have 2 CCS and still the piece of wire to get X communication?
Thanks for help.I am just thinking about transforming my ZLS into a X-ZLS and then listen to see if improved sonics. ;)
Best regards to all of you in the forum
Anael |
|
|
| Henrik |
Anael
Thanks for the compliment.
I will give You some answers, but it might take some days, since I am working hard these days, but at least in the comming weekend.
Hope this will do.
:) |
|
|
| jh6you |
| quote: | jh6you,
nice work. Have you builded a ZEN or SOZ before?
What is the sound of you XSOZV2 in comparison to ZEN or SOZ. |
Hi, Gunter
I still like Zen and Zen V2 particularly for their overall natural sounds. Nevertheless, I get nice characters in the combination of BOSOZ and XSOZV2. The sound is brighter, cleaner and has better transparency. There are good separations of each instrument, and superb details, and it returns back to a nice harmonic texture.
...Yesterday I had a visit to my favourite CD shop, who has a monster grade hi-fi system of Wadia 860, ML 383L, ML 333L and Tannoy Kingdom. O¡¦no! Treble attacks ears and bass sound is accompanying boong boong. Where is the harmonic texture? It was a miss-match. It can not be mine. I found myself wishing if I could have a chance to control Tannoy Kingdom with my new system...
Bass is pretty better. It is confirmed by, among others, the CD of Richard Bona, Reverence, COL 504497 2.
Sound stage is wider and deeper.
Better dynamics... Beauty of violin solo leads the roaring surf following behind, and the roar covers whole space as if to swallow the beauty. The beauty dances out of the roar, and briefly back to the quietness, and appears again like a song of paradise. The roaring surf tries to catch the beauty of the violin solo again...
JH |
|
|
| Selfmade |
Hi jh6you,
thank you very much for your description. This is what I want to hear and what I expected from the circiut.
I think I´m going to build your XSOZV2, too. The circiut is simple and the parts easy to get.
What about the heat dissipation of one channel. 100 Watt?
Could you say something about the damping factor?
Is it possible to use IRFP 040. I have some laying arroud.
Many Thanks to everyone, who let this forum live. Especially Mr. Pass.
Regards
Günter |
|
|
| jh6you |
Hi Gunter
Yes, 100W per channel is a safe estimation.
It is pity. I have no idea about the DF figure. However, as variation of R16 (1.5k) value makes us possible to adjust DF during the final listening test, I recommend you to install it in the convenient place for an easy replacement of R16. I could co-operate to find what value of R16 makes approximately how much of the AC current percentage in the active current source.
Nelson Pass always prefers IRFP040. I expect the 040 will be a good choice. Please do not forget to prepare the matching pairs.
I am sure that this project is born especially thanks to Mr Nelson Pass and also thanks to Henrik and other contributors to this thread.
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
Hi Gunter
In order to find your DF and R16, I recommend to try five different values of R16:
750, 1.1k, 1.5k, 2.2k, and 3k, or similar storehouse values.
The lower R16, the higher DF (tighter bass).
JH |
|
|
| ralf |
jh6you,
i hope i can use the x Bosoz as unbal - bal converter in grounding - of the input??!!!
Have you taken special parts in your circuits? or are all standard parts which one can buy in electronic shops?
Even the Caps- no expensive parts?
Regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| jh6you |
Ralf
I used high quality of ELMA 2 x 11 step switch to make the input volume attenuator.
I used cheap metal film resistors of +/- 1% tolerance for all.
I used cheap electrolytic capacitors for all.
I used tin-plated 0.7mm dia solid wires all the way.
:)
JH |
|
|
| ralf |
| quote: | Originally posted by jh6you
Ralf
I used high quality of ELMA 2 x 11 step switch to make the input volume attenuator.
I used cheap metal film resistors of +/- 1% tolerance for all.
I used cheap electrolytic capacitors for all.
I used tin-plated 0.7mm dia solid wires all the way.
:)
JH |
....thank you ,jh6you.
do you think, better parts will improve the sound?
next days i will buy the parts an give it a try.
hope if the sound of my Soz will be topped.
When i finished i will let you all know the comparison to my soz.
Do you think it`s possible to connect your Xbsoz to XSOZ of Hendrik?
Regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| jh6you |
Ralf
In my opinion, the better resistors might improve the sound barely,
but the better capacitors could improve the sound somewhat.
I used the good quality attenuator switch, considering error-free
contacts and durability only.
You can set up to XSOZ of Henrik. I hope Henrik will confirm.
Expecting your good result...
JH |
|
|
| ralf |
jh6you,
i think i need a bit more time than you for reaching a listenable beta state.
Why have you put the attenuator in the input.
i have put mine in the output of bosoz, cause here in low sound levels, there ist no "SSSSSSS" hearable on the tweeters.
do you think a symmetrical 5k pot in the output will work as well as your 3k2 pot?
Ralf |
|
|
| Henrik |
Ralf| quote: | | Do you think it`s possible to connect your (jh6you´s)Xbsoz to XSOZ of Hendrik? |
Jh6you didn´t make an XBOSOZ but a BOSOZ with CCS´s at the tail. This one will not be able to drive my version of the XSOZ, You will loose too much gain, You need my XBOSOZ or something with an outputimpedance < 30 Ohm singleended. BOSOZ, with or without CCS, have a outputimpedance at around 750 Ohm singleended.
Anael
I will answer You when I am no so tiered in my head.
I will be back. |
|
|
| nar |
| Thanks Henrik I am waiting for your answer about the unbal in drive for bal out in X-ZLS.But I am afraid we will have to use the CCS in order to get it :bawling: |
|
|
| jh6you |
Ralf
If I have the attenuator at the output, I need two instead of one.
Even though I have the volume at input in my case, I hear no "sss" at all. In idling condition, I do not catch any sound at all.
I believe XSOZV2 works very well for the common mode noise rejection. I bet!
Nelson Pass prefers the size of the attenuator up to maximum 25k. Therefore, your 5k pot will work perfect.
Henrik
I hope you will make a good recovery from the tiredness soon.
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
From another thread.
| quote: | But I want to point out something, which is that while
they are symmetric geometrically, they will still tend to
pick up stray magnetic field. Not much, but some.
Of course you can keep them away from transformers, which
I recommend anyway.
For the ultimate, though, we want to take this symmetric
layout and fold it at the middle, so that each half experiences
the same magnetic field.
For the XA200 and XA160 so far, I have intermingled the
placement of each half to achieve much the same thing -
we want the symmetric halves to experience exactly the
same magnetic field.
...Nelson Pass |
|
|
|
| jh6you |
Hi all
Last night, I was listening to nice music.
While the DVD player was on run, I turned off the power of XSOZV2. The
music was off. Next I turned off the power of BOSOZ, and the music came up
very shortly and off. It was very funny. I tried again, and the same thing
occurred.
I wanted to figure out the ghost, but in vein.
Could you explain me why? Thanks.
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
Henrik
I have two questions.
1. How can I get the value of 750 ohm output impedence?
2. Was the test with only "one CCS tail?"
Thanks.
JH |
|
|
| Henrik |
jh6you
1. To be more accurate, Your outputimpedance is 970 Ohm, (R1+R2) 750 Ohm + (R7) 220 Ohm = 970 Ohm. This resistance wil be "grounded" through the inputimpedance of the poweramp. So thus outputimpedance and inputimpedance will split the BOSOZ powersupply voltage and then lover the voltage seen at the drains at Your BOSOZ. So therefore You need a relatievly low outputimpedance and a relatievly high inputimpedance in order not to loose too much voltage at the inputload of Your poweramp.
My XBOSOZ has the same values at the drain, but the X feedback lower the outputimpedance to 10 Ohm singleended, that one is harder for me to explain.
This is my understanding of the theory, and it fits with my mesaurements in the simulator.
2. My tests is done with only one CCS, and this because of the X in my XBOSOZ. |
|
|
| jh6you |
Henrik
1. My understanding is aligned (voltage divider). Then, I believe that we could drive your XSOZ by increasing the gain of my BOSOZ. Do you agree?
2. Why no experiment with two CCS tail? Even if it is just for fun...
JH |
|
|
| Henrik |
jh6you
1. Right, if You lower the gain controlling resistor to 10 to 15 Ohm, it can be done. But I am not shure if this is the best way to do it. You looses a lot of gain into the load, it is in my oppinion better to use (rather than loose) it in the x-feedback.
2. The X need all the gain available in the feedback loop, so no gain reducing resistors between tails, thus only one CCS. And I have unmounted the attachments for the test CCS´s in order to go back to normal functionality. I think I have a really good reason to beleve in the resistors at the tail rather than the CCS´s.
Anael
I will still come back to Your questions, but I would like to answer them in the best way, and that is when my hed isn´t that tired. |
|
|
| jh6you |
Henrik
- Well noted. The pre and the main act like two resistors and so as a voltage divider. Accordingly, the lower output impedance means a better voltage source. Nevertheless, many DIYers use the volume attenuators at the output stage of the pre with no particular concern.
- I recommend to put the gain control resistor between two CCS tails, and to have an experiment. It could be very interesting sonic effect test.
Regards
JH |
|
|
| Henrik |
1. Yes, because of a much higer inputimpedance than the 120 Ohm at the poweramp, more like 10K to 50K. Also Nelson recommends max. 5K potentiometer at the output, just to avoid the higher outputimpedance.
2. In the X amps I know of has no gaincontrol resistor between two CCS´s. I stick to my resistors for the timebeeing. But if You do the test, I would very much like to hear about it.
:) |
|
|
| jh6you |
Henrik
3:00 AM there!
We need regular “zzzzzz.”
Regards
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
Henrik
I think that you understand the X better.
By the way, how do you explain the two tails of the resistors.
Why two?
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
I think the diff pair tails play an important X-role in distortion and noise cancellation. One tail, not split into two, stops the role. O…? Wrong…? Still I will go for the two. Who knows… two could be better anyhow than one…? I am silly and my friends call me so. Hahaha…
JH |
|
|
| ralf |
whats the difference in your x bsoz between ccs 01 -04.
What for is the ccs good?
ist it hearable in comparison to your x bsoz without ccs?
Regards,
Ralf |
|
|
| jh6you |
| quote: | While the DVD player was on run, I turned off the power of XSOZV2. The
music was off. Next I turned off the power of BOSOZ, and the music came up
very shortly and off. It was very funny. I tried again, and the same thing
occurred.
I wanted to figure out the ghost, but in vein.
Could you explain me why? Thanks. |
Hello? |
|
|
| stefanobilliani |
Woopy Goldberg wons an Oscar as best non protagonist actress
for the :film: Ghost
:µphone: :hphones: |
|
|
| jh6you |
| I love her humor... ;) |
|
|
| ralf |
| quote: | Originally posted by Henrik
Ralf
Jh6you didn´t make an XBOSOZ but a BOSOZ with CCS´s at the tail. This one will not be able to drive my version of the XSOZ, You will loose too much gain, You need my XBOSOZ or something with an outputimpedance < 30 Ohm singleended. BOSOZ, with or without CCS, have a outputimpedance at around 750 Ohm singleended.
Anael
I will answer You when I am no so tiered in my head.
I will be back. |
Henrik,
what`s with aleph p1.7 do you think can use this one for your XSOZ and for the Xsoz of Jh6you?
When i try both Xsoz i wouldn`d need to build two XBOSOZ`s :)
Regards,
Ralf:) |
|
|
| leiade |
Hi,
I just wondering about the CTC Builders Blowtorch this is a single ended line stage, what kind of design John Curl use ? a Pass clone ? no Sirs he has designed the ulrimative single end circuit with high grade components like super matched semiconductors and passive parts and the circuit topolgy is outstanding "never seen before" topolgy.
Now, why can't we amateurs clone this way of design as it may be very cheap, a single end design very often consists of a small amount of components, but... if you like me think, I buy a gang of reed switches the very special gold 5 mm, sorry Sir I can only deliver 2000 of them so the price will be 1000 $.
I now understand why the SOTA is so expensive, can we make a sort of standard with very high demands on a few key components maybe we can make a unbeatble, in this case single ended, circuit design what you think am I wrong or.. am I right.
Unite make a choice make way for new thinking.:D |
|
|
| jh6you |
leiade
Could be interesting. But, what is your point?
JH |
|
|
| leiade |
My piont ?
I can take the enclosure part as I have done some research and maybe I can make some enclosure standards as I have a design education facilities nearby.
De facto, if you use some chemicals to make up your aluminium sheets be careful as the chemicals may harm your health seriously.
;) |
|
|
| jh6you |
Sound very discordant.
Many use chemicals to make up their PCB sheets in another thread. Visit there for your lecture about chemistry.
Or, teach the people under your flag as they need it.
;) |
|
|
| leiade |
I mean that if we will make anything good we have to think at least twice, the products we use should be used and handled by great care to protect your health and the environment.
I think that a preamp for example would be much more worth for yourself if you know that you have used material that not pollute our environment and so on.
I saw an ad on the web pcb for peanuts in Bulgaria, do they use a safe manufacturing line, hardly.
One thing with my acto is to trying to find retailers that sells good esoteric high end parts, I have a letter in this forum where I nag about parts one guy mentioned a German machine workshop where they offered frontplates I checked this firm out and find a great product, I will use them for parts to my enclosures but maybe not the faceplates as they only can mill 4mm I will use 10mm.
My needs now is a small 5 mm reed switch goldplated I have a sample it is just wonderful I will use it as input switch together with a small magnet making up some construction so it looks and works like a rotary switch.
But unfortunately they only sell 2000 pcs as min, OK there is many retailers that sell DIY parts but it is too expensive I found a japanese high end switch last week it looked a bit cheap so I mailed the company and get the prices and found that they where even more expensive then the ELMA.
So I will try to find some way to make almost any mechanical part that I use in my encolsures with care and reflection.
One thing I will warn everybody that use Alodine DONT MIX IT AT HOME DO NOT USE THE POWDER VERY HARMFUL YOU MAY GET CANCER use the ready mixed product.
:cool: |
|
|
| leiade |
Now I am back to the single end part of this thread I was asking about the Blowtorch and what kind of circuit design they use.
I will try a new concept making a preamp with very few parts in the active part and use a very good output transformer of cource this will be single ended any that can advice me, I need a good circuit before this transformer it may be a class a high current device.
I will use a singel positive power supply I wonder why we use positive supply's, I think that the NAGRA use minus as supply can this has something to do with an old standard or...
:) |
|
|
| Henrik |
| quote: | Originally posted by nar
Hi Henrick,
I wish to compliment you first of all looking at the wonderful job you did in the X ZLS and X Son of Zen.By the way , also all other mates in the forum who contributed to get this project done.
...for your version dated 3 october 2002;
I have a few questions;Henrick , do you think your X ZLS would even do a good unbal to balanced converter?Even if I run it with gate of Q102 tied to ground for example? I wonder if the X benefits are acquired this way :confused:
Is it right that R 115 is now a piece of wire instead of a resistor?Which I would find right to get the X communication between the 2 halves for noise and distortion cancelation ?
I guess now Q101 and Q 102 must be matched pairs?
Do you think a CCS like the last one from JHyou would help for unbalanced input? Then we would have 2 CCS and still the piece of wire to get X communication?
Thanks for help.I am just thinking about transforming my ZLS into a X-ZLS and then listen to see if improved sonics. ;)
Best regards to all of you in the forum
Anael |
Anael
Thanks for the compliment.
About my XBOSOZ (X ZBLS) and XSOZ http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...5&pagenumber=17 "henrik x-bsoz and x-soz.zip"
XBOSOZ as unbal to balanced converter?
The output at the undriven side is about 90% of the output of the driven. This lack of output maching is from my point of view not important at all if the poweramp shows a reasonable diffrential behaviour (as converter) it self, as for example the SOZ, Henrik-XSOZ or Aleph-X. In my combination of the XBOSOZ and XSOZ I see less than 0.3% mismatch at the speaker.
You looses 10% of the X-match and CMRR in the XBOSOZ, but at the speaker I guess You will have almost max. CMRR, because of the <0.3% mismatch at the speaker.
But when you runs the Henrik-XBOSOZ unbalanced, You don´t short the gate of Q102 to ground, You will short the node R121/P102 to ground, otherwise You no X.
If You ad a CCS as the tail You will get a perfect match, but the sound will degrade a little, at least that is my expierience, se my thread "Some tests on CCS´s" on http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...&pagenumber=28.
R115?
Right, this one is now a pice of wire, and that is to get maximum X-feedback.
Right, Q101 and Q102 shoud be a matched pair.
| quote: | | Do you think a CCS like the last one from JHyou would help for unbalanced input? Then we would have 2 CCS and still the piece of wire to get X communication? |
Tecnically Yes, but in my believes I don´t think the sound will benefit from this. May bee two in parallel wil do a better job, I don´t know. This was suggested by jh6You.
It is very easy to convert/test the BZLS (BOSOZ) to/as a XBZLS (XBOSOZ), and if your poweramp is Aleph, Aleph-X or so, You can keep C101/102 at the original value of 10uF because of the higher inputimpedance.
Hope this will do.
Regards |
|
|
| leiade |
Graphite laminate enclosure may be worth a try, pro; non metal
behavior and good sheilding properties if we combine graphite laminate and thin copper foil, cons; hard to assemble, if we will need coolers use copper, I think we can achieve a very good enclosure for at least a preamp.:cool: |
|
|
| leiade |
| Come down Mr Pusan I don't mean to ***** I just want a more truculent debate in search of the lost good cheap parts I'm also a nice if not a servile guy but nevertheless a agreeable Northlandic hubby.;) |
|
|
| jh6you |
leiade
I am just back from my two day weekend mountain hiking.
My profession is closely related to safeguard of life, property and environment.
Surely, the environment is my first concern. In this thread, however, I like to talk
about Pass X-fied or similar circuits. Sorry but no others.
By the way, you have changed your original location. Any special reason...?
JH |
|
|
| nar |
Thanks a lot henrik I think that will do.I will try the mods as soon
as I can.
Maybe sound with CCS you tested is not good because the CCS are not simple enough...I think about all Alephs with their differential current source.One mosfet,2 resistors and a zener.
Otherwise why Nelson wouldn't have done it with resistors? ;)
Best regards
Anael |
|
|
| leiade |
Hi,
Yes we should take the debate back to origin, BTW do you have any sugestion for my new experiments a single ended drive circuit for a line output transformer from Lundahl it should be very few parts almost like a pass clone I expect about 15 - 20 V as maximum output level the Lundahl xformer is a new type with high output and low distorsion frequency response 10 -100000Hz.
My location is more exact then before I live in a poor province up north in Sweden called Northland if you translate it to english, we have full winter now with lots of snow and very cold down to -15C.:) |
|
|
| jh6you |
Hi leiade
I was skiing in Trysil two years ago –18C. It was too cold to feel my nose and ears.
BTW, I like to see your single ended line stage circuit. Would you post the circuit?
JH |
|
|
| jh6you |
| quote: | …I think at some point you have to look at why you are trying to achieve a perfectly equal output amplitude on both halves. If your amplifier has an ordinary balanced input, it is not of any particular value in terms of improving the noise rejection, since the noise will be identical on both sides regardless.
Unless you go to a constant current source for this, you will continually be trading off some other performance parameter such as noise and distortion against the degree of output level matching.
Nelson Pass |
This comment is the background of my CCS tails for the SOBOZ as an unbalance-balance converter. I can not prove this mathematically. For me, the CCS tails help for the clean sound (low distortion). The clean sound defines transparency, details in mid and upper frequencies, clean harmonic textures and accordingly clean feeling of wider and deeper soundstage. I think I got this.
Someone could claim, “Too clean water kills fish.”
JH |
|
|
| Henrik |
jh6you
| quote: | …I think at some point you have to look at why you are trying to achieve a perfectly equal output amplitude on both halves. If your amplifier has an ordinary balanced input, it is not of any particular value in terms of improving the noise rejection, since the noise will be identical on both sides regardless.
|
In my oppininon this answer from Nelson deals with the fact, that if You in the end (at the speakers) can obtain equal amplitudes, then you will get the diffrential cancellation of the noise and distortion that appears in commonmode.| quote: | Unless you go to a constant current source for this, you will continually be trading off some other performance parameter such as noise and distortion against the degree of output level matching.
|
As I remeber, You tried to modify the BOSOZ to be a better converter by reducing the value of R15 to get better diff. behaveiour. By dooing this You got too much gain, wich You reduced with some splitting resistios at the input (waist of gain).
The cost of this modification were much higer distorton and noice figures, even when the differential cancellation was improoved.
Then Nelson suggested it would be better to make some CCS, and that I beleve.
Bu the Question is still, do You need this perfect match?
If Your "amplifier has an ordinary balanced input" then You dont need the perfect match, because the last diffrential amp does also convert, so in the end You will have a perfect match.
This is what I got from this discussion.
:) |
|
|
| jh6you |
Henrik
Tonight, I would like to talk about two things only.
- The common mode gain of the diff amp can be reduced enormously by using the CCS. The CCS is a large equivalent resistor, and so the common mode gain could be nearly zero.
- If the symmetrical diff amp (BOSOZ) generates equal signal swings at its output and drives an additional diff amp stage (XSOZV2), the overall common mode rejection is greatly improved.
Getting the symmetrical swing from the beginning is better than getting it only at the end.
JH
Reference:
Horowitz & Hill, The Art of Electronics, second edition, Cambridge, PP100-101 |
|
|
| Henrik |
Anael
I just saw Your post now.
| quote: | | Otherwise why Nelson wouldn't have done it with resistors? |
Actually hi did, the BOSOZ is sourced with resistors.
| quote: | | Maybe sound with CCS you tested is not good because the CCS are not simple enough...I think about all Alephs with their differential current source.One mosfet,2 resistors and a zener. |
I tried exactly that one too, and it came out as the best CCS.
The difference in sonical quality I encountered between resistors and CCS´s was not at all enormous, it took som rearley carefull listenig to hear this subtle difference, but it were there. But as I said in my post on the CCS tests, this is related to my setup, it does not have to be in generel.
I think this issue is more about listening more than measureing results.
Try out some listening test with resistors versus CCS´s, then You know, otherwise You have to beleive.
Even when You are certain, it is still not objektive.
I am eager to hear You tell about Your expieriences with this X-modification.
jh6you
1. Since the mismatch in outputamplitude is only 10%, the benefit from the CCS can´t be enormous, since you gets 90% of the CMRR with resistors, thus the CCS can only do the job a little better. Depends on the point of view.
2. Yes.
| quote: | | Getting the symmetrical swing from the beginning is better than getting it only at the end. |
The price to pay for this trade could still be a slightly degraded sound, payed when You use a active component instead of a passive in this specific place.
If You did some listening A/B tests we would have somethig to talkabout, since the final judgement on this issue must be based on what we actually can hear. Then we could discuss what defines good sound, and see if there is some common ground to share or not. |
|
|
| Henrik |
jh6you
Could You tell me a little about the book "The Art of Electronics" You referred to, I need a good book, this one could be the one.
regards |
|
|
| mlloyd1 |
The Art of Electronics
Yes, this book is "the one". Just get the book. You will not be dissappointed. Trust us :D
mlloyd1
| quote: | Originally posted by Henrik
jh6you
Could You tell me a little about the book "The Art of Electronics" You referred to, I need a good book, this one could be the one.
regards |
|
|
|
| Henrik |
mlloyd1
I will.
Thanks a lot, also for the link. |
|
|
| Peter Huang |
| As I know, in this large book, there are a lot of circuits but little maths. |
|
|
| jh6you |
For the last two years, I have read the book up to 26 pages.
In the morning, I always find Page 27 on my face. It means
the book has a good value.
JH |
|
|
|
