| On Line Tube Learning for newbies.... - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
As I am one of those to complain loudest when some questions show a lack of basics, how about a thread to collect on-line resources for "TOOBZ NOOBZ"?
I propose these for starters, as being sufficiently and as covering enough ground to allow one who understand basic electronics (8th grade physics really) to understand "TOOBZ"!
RCA Raditron Manual Version 10 from the 1930's, especially pages 5 - 25 in the pdf file....
Bonavolta - Tubes for Newbies
If anyone knows a good on-line resource on basic Electronics (RLC, Kirchoff, Ohm, lentz etc) please post, this could be included as prefix to the above for a "crash-course in electronics".
Sayonara |
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| Layberinthius |
8th Grade taught Physics!?
What about a guide for people getting into tube audio whom never got Physics in high school?
I rather like this glossary...Tube-Cad Glossary
Edit: Btw that pdf file is really an excellent resource thanks ! |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
LE
Cheers,;) |
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| Kofi Annan |
Being a tube newbie myself, I would greatly appreciate the posting of any and all links to beginners' resources. Rozenblitz's (sp?) book is just a little bit tough to get through for your average dumbass, like me.
I thought that while I was waiting for my Bottlehead Forplay and Paramours to arrive, I'd try to gain a reasonable understanding of what I was about to do.
Try this link for some (IMO) easier-to-understand articles. I'm reading these now and its the best stuff I've read so far.
Thanks and keep posting these, please!
Kofi |
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| BHD |
This is a great idea for a thread.
This is one of the best beginner sites I've found, it walks you step by step through the design and construction of a simple single ended amp:
http://boozhoundlabs.com/howto/
:) |
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| dhaen |
:cop:We seem to have the thumbs up for a sticky thread here :)
Since this is for newbie information it is important that the contributors ensure that the links they provide are both accurate and safe. It must be seen as the responsibility of the poster to ensure this.
:att'n:Users of this thread should pay particular attention to safety. Valve (Tube) equipment runs at hazardous voltages. Please look at this thread before going any further.:att'n:
It's stick now, so enjoy:cloud9: |
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| scottnixon |
If I can get permission to copy and get someone to host, I have the perfect books. Basic Electronics by Vankenburgh, Nooger & Neville.
Vol 1 and 2, first ed 1955. They are by far the best books for audio beginners I have ever seen. Vol 1 is power supply based and Vol 2 is a triodes/audio wonderland for newbies. (other volumes 3-6 are not audio related) Simple, not too deep, very well illustrated in a campy mid-50's flare and is very entertaining and gets the essentials right.
If you can find Vol 1 or 2 in a library or used book store, get it! |
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| tenderland |
I am a tube nub , I find much basic info on tubes , basic electronics ....
not an isue ,what i can not seem to find is good information on the application and fundementals of feedback.
jeff |
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| SY |
Well, feedback theory is not really different between tubes and solid state. For a good overview, there's always the classic "Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill.
Do a web search for Norman Crowhurst and you'll find his clear, readable, and lively papers and articles covering the practicalities of tube feedback circuits. And for a more modern approach, there's Morgan Jones's books. |
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| powertriode |
Here are a couple:-
http://www.funwithtubes.net/
And when you are slightly more advanced:)
http://members.aol.com/sbench101/
As for reading material (i.e. books), read everything that you can find by Norman Crowhurst.
I feel that "Fundamentals of Radio Valve Technique" by Deketh and "Principiles Of Electron Tubes" by Reich are a must read as they are meant for (slightly advanced) newbies. |
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| serengetiplains |
Lynn Olson's website contains a good deal of helpful, clearly expressed information in fun to read format. Olson is a former audio reviewer who quit the reviewing field and, among other things, developed a line of push-pull transformer coupled DHT amplifiers. His design notes and historical perspectives are particularly educational.
His website is here.
Design notes and schematics for his all-transformer coupled amplifiers are here and here and here.
An index of audio and tube related articles can be found here.
Enjoy! |
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| GRollins |
There was a post earlier for the glossary, but not for the main website:
www.tubecad.com
The level of difficulty varies from one writeup to the next, but everyone should at least browse what Broskie has to say. He drops hints and ideas at a phenomenal rate and he's not afraid to mix solid state and tubes if it will get him where he wants to go.
Note that most any basic electronics text published before the mid-seventies will have at least a few chapters on tubes. Get back as far as the fifties and the texts are solid tubes from front cover to back. The neat thing is that no one wants all these "obsolete" text books and you can frequently buy them for pocket change. I've even had people give them to me. My preference is for the McGraw Hill series, but there are others that are surely just as good.
There aren't that many new ideas out there, just people who rediscover old things and recycle them, generally with a new name.
Grey |
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| audiousername |
| I stumbled on this page linked by Choky on R.A.T. It may be useful to people who frequent this thread. It is quite long but well worth a read. |
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| 9am53 |
| Hey guys, I find myself overwhelmed sometimes reading through the information given as help. This thread will surely help! |
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| Layberinthius |
Is there such a thing as online reference for designing a high voltage power supply? 1kV and up?
What I'm asking is is there an easy to understand reference for all of the quirks associated with high voltage supplies?
I know that most theory for low voltage supplies can be scaled up but only to a certian excent and most of them do themselves an injustice by not permitting the reader to confidently design an even higher voltage supply.
Or is it all based upon prior-experience and hand to hand knowledge?
For example, why is it necessary to have a greater amount of filtering capacitance for higher voltages, I'm assuming that it is because the ripple has a greater effect, but I'm not sure, thats a problem.
I do know that SS rectifiers induce noise more so than vacuum tube rectifiers because the SS diodes cannot deal with the flowback of current as easily as tube based rectifiers.
Tube based rectifiers are /nearly/ mandatory in a high voltage power supply as they have far greater peak inverse voltage ratings and with Mercury/Xenon tubes have extremely large peak and constant current ratings.
Rubber insulation on transformer secondary and anode caps aswell as in the case of a resistor network and last but not least capacitors, also be sure to keep HV cables away from the chassis as arc-over can occur.
I'm considering a pair of the GXU1 for a 1kV 300mA supply but I can't find a suitable choke, I'll most likely have to make a custom choke, anyone you know of which manufacture chokes with suitable choke-input ratings of at least 1.2kV and at least 500-600mA?
What I do know is that current draw of resistors needs to be heavily monitored as you don't want to dissipate 300w of power, so most resistance in a filtering scheme is impossible to implement in high voltage supplies without heavy heatsinking.
Components have limitations on current draw and maximum working voltages, all working voltages for chokes and capacitors must be greater than peaks, but if the peak is only 20% greater than the limitation for only one second or less and it occurrs only once (upon startup) then it should be okay.
In Choke input supplies, chokes must at least have 50% or greater than capacitor-input limits so they can handle the inrush current of the further filtering capacitors, in a cap input supply the first capacitor hogs all amperage and that is why chokes are of a lower value.
There are a few other things, most important, but I cannot for the life of me remember what they are. |
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| audiousername |
It's in post 22! |
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| Layberinthius |
| quote: | Originally posted by GRollins
There was a post earlier for the glossary, but not for the main website:
www.tubecad.com
Grey |
Uhm I won't bash John Broskie's rather excellent Journal's but I will on his Glossary, it sucks, are there any other glossarys which contain more than 30-40 descriptions online that cater for the tube side of the web?
Ie, There simply isn't enough, Tubes are a vastly larger world than from A to Z than in 30 words/abbreviations.
I would imagine many newcomers reading this thread are becoming quite confused when the only immediate referential glossary material to them is online/electronic and 1/4's done.
Remember we're trying to teach newcomers not previous field workers whom know the lingo, I bet you that 1/2 of the newcomers whom frequent here for learning have no way to refer to a book for a good referential glossary any time they want and is absent from quite a bit of beginners learning material, but if it is it's hard to source, this affects my understanding of the field quite a bit because I find myself re-learning the same stuff a day or a week later, whenever I have enough balls to give it another go, If I had a dictionary I guarantee you I could learn twice as fast than I am now.
The big Engineer's reference book for tubes and other closely associated fields are just not being redistributed and the copy my uncle lends me is deteriorating fast.
Please diyaudio.com/tubes, come out with a pocketbook that people can print and take with them that has every damn description out there, wether the user is learning how to properly do the numbers on a filtering stage or wether they're calculating interelectrode capacitance for elements in some wild and wacky unexplored tube, they/we/I need a dictionary. |
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| Hrappur |
My fingers hurt from adding all your links to my Favorets:D
Look´s like me and posibly 9am53 are the only tube noobs on this post so here goes: For me you shouldn´t have. But seriosly thanx a lot! this is the most helpfull forum I´ve seen and by helpfull Im talking about the members and youre willingness to help and inform the newcomers:) |
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| thedoctor |
I always refer folk to: sound.westhost.com/amp-basics1.htm
Very clear and good drawing references. Should get a person started. |
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| wussboy |
| Thanks so much to everyone for posting this information. I've been reading for days, and now I feel like I only am confused by 98% of what I see! Today I looked at a schematic on this site and understood that it was single-end, what the two tubes were for, and why the output transfomer (or OPT, as I learned after hours of confusion) was where it was. I still feel completely overwhelmed but I'll plug on because I WANT MY TUBE AMP!! :) |
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| Dominique_free |
It is very valuable information on that site:
http://www.radau5.ch/basics.html
The english articles are using the US theory that is based on the conductance and the german articles are based on the perveance. Those german books are very interessant because the perveance is much more constant as the conductance when a tube is doing some dynamic work, even if at the end, the final result of a calculation must be the same.
German is not my cup of tee, but it is always the math...
Some books are very easy to read, other are very tecnical. |
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| pengboon |
Anyone has a link talking about the characteristics, maybe even pros and cons of different types of circuit designs, for example, SRPP, common cathode, cascode, etc?
thanks! :D |
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| 9am53 |
| Hello, I have a question about tube testing. Whenever I look to buy tubes fro my guitar amps they give ratings like 120/122. What do these numbers mean? |
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| Dominique_free |
| quote: | Originally posted by pengboon
Anyone has a link talking about the characteristics, maybe even pros and cons of different types of circuit designs, for example, SRPP, common cathode, cascode, etc?
:D |
Every electronic boock wil explain the basis, especialy radio-electronic books. You must be able to loan some old radio-electronics book in a public library, and photocopy it. If you are lucky, the book will be from the time where tubes was king, and in almost all cases, they will be more complet as the new books.
With tubes, you have fondamentaly 3 basic circuits: common cathode, common grid and common anode. You have exactly the same with a transistor: common emiter, common base and common collector.
After, as with transistors, you have 3 class of operation: class A, B and C. With subclass as AB1 and AB2.
At the end, and again as with transistors, you can combine 2 or more tubes to archieve circuits as SRPP, cascode, PP, ...
Now, I cannot suggest a book that will explain all. One will be good to explain the basic circuits. another will have a good explaination for the classes of operation, one will be good to explain the cascode, one will be good to explain the noise. So you have to keep reading. And experiment. Radio electronics book are best for me because they are not so academic, but practical, and as you can find every possible circuit in radio-electronics, they are talking about a lot of things.
For me, the link to radau5.ch is the best I know with free reading. But it is personnal. Other can prefer other reading. Some book on radau have the equivalent circuits of each presented circuit. Those equivalent circuits are maybe the most important part of the book, because they show how the circuits work, and which formula you must use to calculate it.
You can take a look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...onic_amplifiers
The basic concepts are the same for tubes, the implementation is almost the same as with npn transistors, but the mathematics are not the same. |
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| Dominique_free |
| quote: | Originally posted by 9am53
Hello, I have a question about tube testing. Whenever I look to buy tubes fro my guitar amps they give ratings like 120/122. What do these numbers mean? |
Which amplifier is it? Which tube in the amplifier and what are the inscriptions on the tube? |
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| Dominique_free |
| I don't know. You must ask the seller. |
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| 9am53 |
| so when people test tudes and give these ratings you have to talk to the person who tested them to find out what the numbers mean? are you sure? I was under the impression that the numerator and denominator had specific meanings |
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| Dominique_free |
First, I was misunderstanding the question. I thinked at those number was the type of the tube.
Now, ratings or specifications are the result of some mesurment. A specification will have no meaning at all if we don't know the conditions of the mesurment. Another issue is at we must have an unity of mesure. 120/122 doesn't tell if we are speaking of cat, money or electric current.
As exemple for the conditions, if you look at Ia=f(Ua) for a triode, the manufacturer give you the conditions. It is for which grid voltages it have mesured the curves, and we can read 1 curve for each grid voltage. For a pentode, you will have one more condition, the screnn voltage, and we will get a full set of curves for each screen voltages.
Another exemple is the music power of an amplifier. In many cases, it doesn't tell anything because the manufacturer doesn't tell anything of the conditions of the mesurment. |
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| 9am53 |
| oh I see, so if they just tell me a bunchof numbers it doesnt realy mean anything...the guy said no leaking and something else...I hope they are ok...ahh well atleast I only paid 11 dollars for them including shipping...thanks! |
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| Dominique_free |
Back to the subject of this thread.
I found a copy of Vacuum Tube Amplifiers, by George E. Valley & Henry Wallman, McGraw-Hill, 1948. It is a very technical book that deal with every aspect of tube electronics. It is not really a book for beginner because I think at most beginners don't have enough mathematical knowledge to undestand it. But, it is a very interresting reading even for someone that doesn't have a good basic mathematical background.
It is a big book, around 750 pages, and it is in 2 pdf files, a little one with the preface and the contents, and a very big one (32398K) with the book. I can do a zip and put it somewhere on the internet, but I am not sure if it is legal. The book is copywrited, but it is from 1948, so I don't know if the copyright is still valid.
Can someone confirm if I can upload this book and will not get in trouble? |
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| GRD |
| I've been looking for a copy of Valley and Wallman. One of the Bibles. Thanks for posting. |
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| Listens2tubes |
| Try Amazon for these as used books. |
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| D Canady |
Great ideas for reading up on tube amp basics from all of you. Thanks.....Now where do I find information on a specific amp.
I found a Bell Sound Systems PA20 amp at a garage sale. After finding the right fuse, replacing the power cord, cleaning every socket, visually inspecting each tube, and confirming all wires were attached to something, I plugged it in. Power gets to (and through) the on off switch. Nothing else seems to be affected. ...no glow, no heat, no hum. Reading another thread on this site I learned about stored power in capicitors so I have been afraid to go further.
Aside from taking it to a shop, any ideas?
Thanks! DC |
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| Dominique_free |
For such research, google is your friend. Otherwise, you have to follow the circuit in the amp and write it by hand. The only reference you must have for that is the pining of the tubes, and vacuum amp are not so complicated.
In your case, it can even be enough to check the filaments on the tubes with an ohmmeter and change the defect one. If it is a power tube in a push-pull, you have to change both. If all the tubes are very old, it is best to change all.
BTW, this thread is not the good thread to ask this question. It can be a lot of work to do, and it will be more appropriate in another thread. It can even be appropriate to make 2 threads, one for your problem, and another one similar to this one, but for all kind of shema we can found on the net. |
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| Gold_xyz |
electronic tubes and their basic theory also some very good amp tube
project. Link Tube |
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| Valvewizard1 |
Site on how to design valve / tube guitar amps (currently under construction) some useful hifi stuff too:
www.valvewizard.co.uk |
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| Bicycleguy |
Complete in pdf format, 1952 copyright.
This is what the owner of the site says about the copyright;
- Does it violate copyright law? No. The copyright is 1953 and copyright in Canada lasts for 50 years. That was up in 2003. If someone *had* bought the copyright before then and renewed it, it did not show up on a copyright search I did *before* I added these files here.
http://geek.scorpiorising.ca/RDH4 |
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| jrevillug |
Hello,
I just got a copy of the book Basic Elecronics by Van Valkenburgh, Neville and Nooger (all 6 parts in one volume). I have read the power supply section so far, and have found that it has a lot of information and is easy to read. The versio that I have is the British and Commonwealth version, published by the Technical Press in London.
I highly recommend this bok, and it looks like the Librarys in Britain are selling off their copys. I am now on the lookout for Basic Electrics and Basic Solid State Electronics.
James |
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| jkeny |
I'm a noob myself & just found this howto site - it answers all the questions I couldn't find gathered into one place - gives reasons for the choice of each component in a tube amp design & what values to use & why - excellent!
John |
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| poynton |
| quote: | Originally posted by Valvewizard1
Site on how to design valve / tube guitar amps (currently under construction) some useful hifi stuff too:
www.valvewizard.co.uk |
Excellent work in progress |
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| Tweeker |
| I dont know, but I doubt it was removed. However, it is already on the first page.;) |
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| kage |
| this is very useful, i love it , thanks everyone |
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| HDaudio |
anybody please hepl me !
Im have 4 choke Tresco 6H 120 mmA , so can use for Tube pream ? Because some choke can not use for Audio but this cant check it on intenet.
Please hepl me !
Thanks!
here : |
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| Ricky |
Hi all.
I think this thread is absolutely great!!!.
Firstly, as has already been said, BEWARE HIGH VOLTAGES!. This can't be stressed enough. The basic kit you need is simple enough. Scope, millivoltmeter, multimeter and signal generator. That's the technical stuff, now the other. Calculator, pencil with sharpener (trust me, you'll need this) and lots of paper. The fundamental in all this is Ohm's law. Work it out first on paper, then attempt to build it. Last 2 pieces of kit that I insist on using. These come from my days as a TV engineer in the 70's. ISOLATING TRANSFORMER AND RUBBER MATTING AROUND THE BENCH. Seems like overkill, but life comes before a quest!!.
If you are interested in any more info then please ask.
Ricky.:smash: |
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| fauxpas |
| I've learned a lot. I've learned not to *^%$ around with my amp till I have someone looking like Doc from back to the future looking over my shoulder screaming "...one point twenty one gigawatts...". |
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| Matt Helm |
| great info! Thanks guys! |
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| Aidan135711 |
I am a newbie to tubes and have always been interested in these glass thingies that I keep finding but I just put them in my bits box thinking"I must read up about these devices someday".
Only recently did I discover this forum and have built a surround chipamp but tonight I found this thread and more specifically,BHD's link to boozhoundslabs amplifier and some other theory links.
Boozhounds amp is a beutiful piece of craftsmanship and I have just got to make one,so I will be posting here a lot soon with silly questions.
This forum is great. |
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| fragchamp |
| Hey dudes. I am going to make a tube preamp and also a guitar amp. I need to be unmoderated! Unmoderate me! Unmoderate me now! Will that do it? |
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| tjt111012 |
hey guys,
thank u so much,
your jobs are very helpful to me! |
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| pstcho |
hi, is that possible to replace a 12au7 by a 12ax7 in tube preamp
what kind of mods must i do to do it?
excuse me if the question has been posted many times
thank you |
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| impsick |
| WOW found this page just. Great stuff. The tube numbering system link is some good info to know! HERE |
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| msmpe |
Originally posted by pstcho
"is that possible to replace a 12au7 by a 12ax7 in tube preamp"
I'm not the expert, but if you go to Tube Town and look up their report on preamp tubes, they suggest swapping a 12Au7 with a 12ax7 for more gain (40 vs 100). Also, Steve at Decware makes the same suggestion for one of his amps. Check out the three tubes in your tube manual.
Also aNooby hooked on tubes |
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| pstcho |
hi, thank you for your answer
it's the same connection but somebody in another forum told there's too mutch modify to make to have no trouble with noise because of impedance difference
somebody as already done it for a test?
thank you |
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| 6550stan |
| Hi, Great site here LOADED with info! My name is Stan & I'm from New York. I have a question on my B & K Dyna-Quik Model 650 & would be beyond grateful if someone could help me. I have a hundred + 6550 International KT-88 tubes and cannot figure out if my B & K has the socket for proper testing. Based on my built in chart that # falls in between two others with completely different sockets,sensitivity #'s & heater#'s. I am new to this end but not new to using tubes. Thanks & great site! Awesome info- I feel like I found a new home! If I need a new tester please let me know the best and most affordable recommendation. 6550stan |
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| jamesgate |
After reading this thread, I'm now respectfully cautious approaching my first project, but I also have visions of my first amplifier melting down on the workbench, the victim of cascading component failures. What are the inherent safety factors that go into a tube based amplifier circuit, how do you protect it from itself? Is it the high voltage components? What if they burn up? Is it the distance between components? If 120VAC becomes 400VDC, why not 600V if something breaks, creating a domino effect? What keeps 400V from the cabinet, the on/off switch, or the volume potentiometer ?
Also, I was looking at several inexpensive kits and it seemed clear the power supply plugs were not grounded plugs, they were two prong. I would have expected a grounded plug to be fundamental for safety. Why or why not?
On test equipment, there are references to a "signal generator" - does a Hewlett Packard 200CDR "Wide Range Oscillator" count? The range is 5 - 600,000 Hz, I've used it to test frequency response in speakers. If not this Oscillator, what should I look for, something that can do shaped waves, such as square or saw tooth, as well as sine waves? I also have a surplus HP1220A Oscilloscope and an older HP141B OScope with 1423A Time Base and 1402A Dual Trace Amplifier - will these be worth renovating? Or is this type of equipment 'old school'?
When you test an amplifier for quality of output, how much do you depend on the test equipment compared to listening tests, and how accurate can you get at all gain levels? Do you expect to see
a) low noise (of course),
b) accuracy at the output stage from 20 - 20,000Hz at some gain levels,
c) accuracy at the output stage at all gain levels,
d) a nice sounding amp, almost regardless of what shows on the oscilloscope?
Thanks much - |
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| Zero Cool |
| quote: | Originally posted by BHD
This is a great idea for a thread.
This is one of the best beginner sites I've found, it walks you step by step through the design and construction of a simple single ended amp:
http://boozhoundlabs.com/howto/
:) |
WOW this was an awesome read! Thank you for this link!
Zc
:D |
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| lowtherdream |
I have been reading a lot of info and documents about tube amps ... but I still don't fully understand what makes a good tube combination.
In a 2 stage amp, what makes the input/driver stage couple well with the output stage ?
In a 3 stage amp, what is the right combo, and are there rules to follow for stage amplification factor ?
I do understand how each stage is build and calculated, but I found little info that explains stage coupling. Can you please guide me to some specific documentation or maybe explain what the parameters that guide stage coupling ? |
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| Cobra2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by 6550stan
Hi, Great site here LOADED with info! My name is Stan & I'm from New York. I have a question on my B & K Dyna-Quik Model 650 & would be beyond grateful if someone could help me. I have a hundred + 6550 International KT-88 tubes and cannot figure out if my B & K has the socket for proper testing. Based on my built in chart that # falls in between two others with completely different sockets,sensitivity #'s & heater#'s. I am new to this end but not new to using tubes. Thanks & great site! Awesome info- I feel like I found a new home! If I need a new tester please let me know the best and most affordable recommendation. 6550stan |
B&K 650 settings; (picture) (Tube/Heater/Socket/Section/Test-Pos/Good-Bad/True GM/Std.GM)
Do you not know; It's illegal to have hundred+ KT88/6550 in one house... :clown:
I would like to buy a few ;)
Arne K |
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