| Destroyer X and Von Melter, shows destructor Multisim's measurements - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| destroyer X |
My resistor charge explode in 522 watts.. could not measure more... had not time!....when analog multimeter was reaching the point, and digital flicking, and Scope turns crazy, and house lamps goes yellow!..... BOOOOOM!....
This way, i made simulations on Multisim 2001, and i have the honor to show you, the most crazy and biggest dream of Powerholic, Powermaniac and all incredible world destructors.
No man can hold this punch!...no speaker will survive, no neighboor will sleep, no girl will discuss, you have the biggest, the wonderest, the magnificent and enormous power!
Joking, of course others can beat (hohohô!).... and others can be better (hahahahahaha!), and some can be more modern(hihihihi!).
Do not believe it is good, no not trust it is strong, ..... assemble it, and sit in an stable chair, switch on you VHS recorder, or your digital photograph machine, and see the lost alive seconds of your's speakers (hihihihihihi!)
I told you.... Yeeeaaaah told ya!
Carlos not proud, Carlos not best, Carlos not important....better than that.... Carlos is CRAZY!!! |
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| destroyer X |
And this simulations talk by themselves.. this is the already shown Destroyer X Amplifiers, in registration burocratics work.
The schematic already shown, and now, helped by one crazy spirit that passes me ideas when i was dreamim.... the already dead Von der Melter, dead 1944, radio operator from Wermacht!
Do you believe?.... i also do not (hohohô!)
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
Are you strong enougth to hold the transformer?... how many brother do you have to help you?
And your house, is it strong?....better take care.
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
Are you sure... i am not responsable related your ears survive.
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
Take care, if someone figth in war 1 kilometer diameter around your house.... can be trouble...open the glass windows, and better to run away.
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
hohohohô!
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
Put a recording of a Boeing going on.....huhuhuhuhuuuuu!
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
Danger!... sometimes voice coil goes flying burning....not to long, only 2 meters more or less.
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
I am deeply sure... sorry, you money.....poor devil..... broken.
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
Reach this power, no transformer can hold that!.... put two ....my God!
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
Because your speaker will melt!...Mr Van der Melt is smilling a lot, problem is the hole made by gun machine in his head...... he is screaming. Ein neuen blitzkrieg!.
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
God, forgive them, they do not know watt they are doing!
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
Some crazy guys scape from hospital in Brazil.
Carlos |
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| K-amps |
Carlos,
Please explain why your 2 ohm power reading is more than 2X the 4 ohm RMS reading...
K- |
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| destroyer X |
If is already too hot or not, if you go into little clipping or not, the frequency too.... and depends on Multisim, and this simulation program is so precise in calculation as the mother or my grandmother!
This way, do not worry, take care, and avoid risks with unknown quality designs, this one is the first i change to make happy young powerhollics, and is already proven in field....but those difficult questions , only to enginneer... sorry, i am not.
In nature, there are things that sometimes not only double size, but diameter too (hahahahaha)......... do you know?..... really?.... have sure?..... one three!
Carlos |
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| Elso Kwak |
Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho - huh, huh, huh, are you OK Carlos?
Panzerfausten z Herr Von Der Welter Kaput Machinen? hahahahaha!!! :D :D :D:smash: :smash: :smash::clown: |
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| jam |
Elso,
Please translate.......................sounds like................. |
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| destroyer X |
You are very special people, you catch the meaning from the air.... special people is good.... i like you all.
Good humor makes life better.....got it.
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
The real world will show different results always.
My charge resistor (not an impedance, only some resistance)... has not the same characteristics as one speaker, this last one will show 8 ohms resistance when driven with 1 Kilohertz signal.
My melting resistor charge, brigthing red, will change its resistance a lot..... this way....measure wrong!
Also my supply goes down... and deep loose of voltage.... this way, the voltage i measured will be lower than the simulations.... voltage supplies in the Multisim a have are not dependent with the charge.... Giga ampéres is possible, voltage, as a miracle do not reduce, you can simulate using one small resistor in series, but hard to discover the correct value of this one... i cannot because i am not an enginneer, no calculator brain capable.
In , Multisim 2001, my old one, very expensive too, you switch on some simulation and theres some cliping.... switch of an on again...no more clipping there... this way.... hummmm,... it is more crazy than i am.
Those values, power related 8 to 4 ohms , not necessarily exactly twice, depends of the supply....at least twice, of course.
Remember that real good is a lot of transistors, maybe 12 pairs, and can change transistors too, when using hi frequency transistor that can reach some Megahertz, naturally they will work easy in lower frequencies where you find some harmonics that give the main "bell" sound characteristics...hi frequency hamonics that we do not perceive... but this audio exists and goes into hear... and some electrical work will happen inside brain... not perceived by conscience...but brain receive some stimulation.... something alike...."something is happening".
Thats the reason people is making 300 Khz less 3 dB points... they are not crazy!.... they believe that, and could see better response in 17000 that many people can hear if loud sound is reproduced.
Is this amplifier the best, the biggest, the diamond amplifier in the earth...NO, IT IS NOT!.... It is strong, very strong power.... for the voice coil it is a murderer, also power chords hate this amplifier, and speaker manufacturers love this amp.... do you remember Leach Amplifier..... remember the bass.... you get it!
Carlos |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by jam
Elso,
Please translate.......................sounds like................. |
Jam, Are you sure you manupilated the right bodypart of Bill in your picture..........
:clown: |
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| AKSA |
The nose is twisting left and right.
It should be getting longer.......
Carlos, you are 1 crazy guy......
Cheers,
Hugh |
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| Devil_H@ck |
Lol, keep going Carlos :D.
(Yes, that's all this is, a useless reply.) |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by Elso Kwak
Panzerfausten z Herr Von Der Welter Kaput Machinen? |
| quote: | Originally posted by jam
Elso,
Please translate.......................sounds like................. |
Hi Jam, as far as I know a Panzerfaust is a Bazooka from WWII. But German reading members should correct me if I am wrong.
;) |
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| classd4sure |
Hi,
| quote: | | In , Multisim 2001, my old one, very expensive too, you switch on some simulation and theres some cliping.... switch of an on again...no more clipping there... this way.... hummmm,... it is more crazy than i am. |
Try opening up the sample circuit which I believe is a one channel amplifier, might be named THD or something.
When open there's a THD meter attached, click run to simulate and it shows a nice figure of around .02, raise the input level, to anything. Watch the THD skyrocket to 10% and more, reset the input level back where it started at, watch the THD stay well above 10%. Hmmmmmmmm
Carlos I'm astounded you even found enough models with multisim to get a working circuit out of it, it doesn't seem to able to simulate much more than a single op amp circuit reliably.....even then..
Anyway...I'm just saying I dont like multisim at all.
I especially dislike their "this bug is known and will be fixed in the next version, after you pay us another 6 thousand dollars" policy.
As well as their "free access to EDA parts database containing zillions of compatible models" which takes you two seconds to find out it's not free at all, and since it's far from the industry standard, very few manufacturers offer Xspice models that will work with it.
So I have to ask, why multisim? Have you tried any other simulators?
Hmmm....actually.....it's really a very great program, cant' say enough good about it.....does anyone want to trade a used oscilloscope for a used copy of this great program? Still got the box.
Cheers.
Chris |
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| destroyer X |
I have some interesting feelings related Multisim 2001 (not the last one), I love it and Hate it same time..... this is a very strange feeling, i become disturbed with that.
Mine was expensive, and registered version, and they lye to me, i could not have parts...MULTISIM LYE TO ME.
The transistors inside, a big amount, stupid ones, unused ones, low power, never matched, can not find good complementary.... i found some BC547/557...... BC546/556......BD139/140/.... and not matched output.... this way....always using those to simulate...but real world, when i need more current, more power to a driver, i like to use TIP41 instead of BD139... and real world things change a lot, VBE moves too much, beeing same gain units replacement, also VBE turns crazy!..... this way, my no brainy work is disturbed because multisim, the one i have, have no TIP41/42 pairs.... those are very cheap here, we have already some factories saved from Global World..... good to USA and some others, not to my country....but lets forget those damned things of humankind and go ahead with our subject, TIP41/42 is around 50 cents of american dollar...good gain, around 120 sometimes, hard to find matched ones, but you find.... and pretty, 6 amperes if i do not forget, and do not goes to much hi frequencies.... some Mhz, less than 10 i think...can hold good VCE voltage and can dissipate, a real 30 watts!....data sheet said 60 watt, but this is using enormous machine to keep it 25 degrees... this way, i like it as a driver to power units, when cannot use BD139.... this way i am simulating without problems.
But the new Multisim, seems to me a young boy, the one very buble, that finished University, thinking too clever, because rich and from the owner family, had a charge on the old Workbench... and they said..."Now i will make it good"...... my point of view, he put collours and fresh things that remembers me some gay clothes, and stupid enormous measurement instruments that cover 20 percent schematic (a completely stupid thing) despite a small square with voltage, theres an stupid enormous measurement instrument... with case!.... i think the guy that change it is completely out of rail.
Also the automatic route make a lot of problems.... you have to click first.... drag second, conect third, and sometimes it SHOWS COLD SOLDERED POINTS AND BURNED INSTRUMENTS! can you imagine such a thing..... extremely complicated to use... to make a frequency plot you became crazy a lot of damn informs to input.... i send its plot to hell".... i return to old multisim and plot all things. But i cannot scape from multisim, because is alike piano, my hands goes automatically, dragging things... and i know their failures, and how to pass over and to make it work the way i can.... cannot scape from it anymore!... its alike my damn Spanish wife.... terrible, but beatifull!
I tried others, but i think them ugly, complicated...must click in Components... and them select if analog or not... and them select inside if you want chip, if you want transistor.... and them if you want PNP or NPN.... and if you want Big or small.... if it is to3 or other.... and them if Audio or Rf.... and when you finish those hard work..... have to start again this stupid thing to resistor....i cannot understand so much stupid thing done by so much expertise people. Many of them i tried, not better than excrements, because this one is usefull to plants.... those spices (general name, not one special one....you spice defender... be quiet you place!) are very bad, ugly, confused.
I am trying to find one, the one...could not.... the one with woman name....Tina.....may be good...i will use it to see.... but all i found and have test it (hello spicer's... keep quiet!), those i found, diferent from the one made some guy, now, nervous, The ones i test were bad,of course, the spice my nervous friend is good!...not to figth because spice... this is no helpfull...against friends.. we have to respect others experience....peace brother!
If you can help me....PLEASE, tell me one to try.... i will do it, and if like it, i will make a lot of noise and thank you loud and clear....if not like.... i will tell nothing, because good intentions no good to pay this way.
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
Here the Melter schematic, please, put giant heatsinks, also 12 transistor pairs... do not bother yourself to match too much them...emitter resistor will take care of them... the best i done to make it awfull, i could not.... i used a lot of transistors... always working reasonable..... alike many others.....not the many explendored thing.
Love is the many explendored thing.
But shakes the house, unscrew some tables.... put mice to run away (must have ultrasonic oscilations....hahahahaha!), can blow some window too.... can cover your sister's damn voice.... can disturbe those neighboors (some of them are asking this medicine!) can tell that wonderfull girl you in home, also she will HAVE TOO listen your music!
I am preparing the TITANIC, this one will send all others amplifiers to deep sea diven, with no return!.... they will be covered by Titanic.... they will be ashamed!
Sub name model will be KILLERONE.... no speak will survive!....and KILLERTWO will blow all house fuses and thermical switches!!!.... wait to see..... the hell on them.... neighboors will move... the girl you love will go to your door screaming to you to reduce this damn sound!.... and them you say to her.....
- Only the time you spend my side... if you go away, i will turn it up again (hahahaha)
Carlos |
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| classd4sure |
Hi ya Carlos,
To be perfectly honest with you, I wasted real good money on two versions of multisim...they dont' seem to fix the old problems yet manage to introduce a whole slew of new ones.
Along with it being completly unreliable, my biggest complaint is the lack of models, as you've noticed yourself, and since they use Xspice ...which I think Tina uses as well?...Not many manufacturers seem to supply Xspice compatible models. Though I'm far from being a spice master and could be wrong.
I have seen the latest multisim as well and I know exactly what you mean, 3D realistic look alike models of actual oscilloscops and DMM, yet it seems to have even less models than the last one did.
I wonder if even their 555 timer model is fully functional yet..aaaanyway......It's only ever let me down, so I've good reason to dislike it, and rant about it.
I should also mention their very poor litterature on it, it seems you have to know how to use it perfectly or there is no way you'll ever figure it out.
As I lack funding for proper equipment and components to burn up, I rely heavily on spice for learning and experimenting with.
I spent alot of time looking for another, and like you, my initial reaction to them was that they looked...well...unpolished, complicated to learn...etc
These days I'm using Unison from Cadence, which includes capture, and the pspice simulator, you can do smoke tests, has all kinds of advanced analysis .....and ...most importantly....it alllllllll works!!!!!!!
It's a little clunkier to use, but it doesn't take long to get used to at all, if you just suffer through the first few day's with it, I think you'll grow to like it more and more each time you use it.
Most importantly, it comes with more models than is probably even available for multisim, even more importantly, it's considered to be the industry standard, which means manufacturers always seem to offer models for it, or that work well with it. For instance, there isn't a TIP model it doesn't have.
I can go on and on about how good it is, certainly in comparison to multisim, but you sir are a smart man and I'll leave you to decide for yourself, and fear not, because there is tonnes of good litterature available on it that is actually informative, and will not only help you through the transition period of getting to know it, but well beyond as well.
You've seen me post some pics of circuits and graphs in other threads? They were all done using that program, I know for a fact multisim would never do.
So, I hope you try it out and I'm sure you'll find it to your liking, I think after not even a week of using it, you'll be an old pro on it, and seriously regretting ever having wasted your hard earned money on the likes of multisim. I certainly do.
There are one or two others worth mentioning, such as LTspice which is free and works very well, but it's just not the industry standard and suffers from a lack of models and such.
Here's hoping EWB goes bankrupt, I think they are nothing but thieves.
Once you graduate from the typical RC time constant circuit, you've also graduated from multisims uselessness.
I've ranted about this sorry program enough now, and will try to refrain from doing so again, this just couldnt' be helped.
Carlos, I look forward to seeing what you can do with pspice.
Chris |
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| destroyer X |
I think i forget to click the attachment.
Carlos (hummmm becaming old) |
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| destroyer X |
Not only appreciate the meaning, but the perfect text you wrote.
One of the best text i have read in this forum, the clear way and the logical sequence was perfect.
I can not be clear as you in my own language, this makes me feel good an also sad.
Good to see how much better, using language one Canadian can be, and sad to see that enormous ammount of my own people can not write, and think, more than 20 percent your value.
I want to say, here, to everyone knows, that is an honor to me have your attention, and this is true, not a joke
I tried, using efforts, to dennie your ideas, and this to defend myself to see me alike a fool, because i spent a lot of money, and i already see the foolish done.
I also, waiting them bankrupt, because not honest!.... we cannot have parts free, they make us a dirty game, i am waiting this day to open a Champagne bottle and say very loud and clear F--- them!
Using, and using, and finding faults.... having deceptions with RC too, frequency response sometimes not change if you put small condenser in the input, this way i using it as a tool to draw schematics, and to see if the schematic can work real life or not.
This indication, i have to say, never fail... if some schematic works good or works bad in Multisim simulation, real world it will work.
But when do not work, i am not more loosing my time assembling those schematics....because never work. Two values remains to me, the first is because i am skilled to use it, to draw schematics, and the second is it can say to me... do it!, or , don't do it!
In real world assembling, i have always to move something in circuit......ah!... now i remember, Multisim do not like to work with VBE multiplier.... sometimes works, sometimes not!...this way i jumped always to diodes. And the old version i have here do not make the zener work.... you put voltage, resistor in series with zenner, switch on, and when measuring, zener appear as open, as damaged, open circuited component!
It is burning components without inform me. Sometimes i loose my time and perceive amperimeter is open circuited.
I will try the one you informed me.... and if someday you hear one big YEEEEAAAHHH!. will be me in South America, screaming happy, the day they close their doors.
Carlos |
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| classd4sure |
Hi,
Thanks for the compliments, I'm a good debater, even when I know I'm wrong :)
Yup, all spice programs have their little quirks to deal with, but honestly I can't really think of one for pspice offhand..hmmm yeah I can the licensing program they've incorporated with recent versions is seriously annoying..but it works so I take it as a small price to pay.
Take a look at the pic I'm attaching..and keep in mind it's only 1/10 of what's actually there...just for the tip models! This is non existant for multisim.
I'm entirely confident you'll find a new world with it, one which will enable you, instead of hinder you.
It will only take a few days getting used to I'm sure of that, and if you have questions I for one will be glad to answer any I can.
If I can convert just one multisim user, my life will have found purpose.
http://www.orcad.com/
http://www.orcad.com/downloads/orcadlite10/default.asp
Oh yeah, it can crash sometimes, but it seems to retain your work when it does crash, and there's a new service pack I haven't tried for it yet anyway. So you have an honest review.
Best of luck,
Chris |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by classd4sure
If I can convert just one multisim user, my life will have found purpose.
Chris |
I kind of like multisim (mine is 2001 student): it has lots of models and is very easy to use (too easy in my view). mine has tip31 though 50.
I also have access to orcad 10 (as part of psd). a little bit complicated in my view, but very powerful.
multisim is good if all you wanted is to see how a particular design works in a very short period of time. it is quite easy to build up a circuit in multisim than in orcad or protel.
on protel: loved 99se. |
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| classd4sure |
Hi,
| quote: | | multisim is good if all you wanted is to see how a particular design works in a very short period of time. |
Ha ha....that almost brought on a rant.. (I deleted it). Other opinions are welcome though. I ranted enough about multisim I think.
The real problem is while it might be ok to try a quick 2 minute circuit with...like a 2 part resistor + LED type of thing..they ask anywhere from 200 to several thousand dollars for it, and given that, it should be better for alot more, if you ask me.
It doesnt' take any longer to wire up a quick circuit in orcad once you know your way around it, and when you're done it actually works, which saves you alot of time in the end.
I never had the pleasure of trying protel, I've heard good things about it though.
Has anyone ever tried this one?
http://www.anasoft.co.uk/specifications.html
It seems to have some nice analysis features, but again, uses Xspice for which you'll have a hard time finding models for, so I haven't tried it but it's perhaps another option.
Chris |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by classd4sure
The real problem is while it might be ok to try a quick 2 minute circuit with...like a 2 part resistor + LED type of thing..they ask anywhere from 200 to several thousand dollars for it, and given that, it should be better for alot more, if you ask me. |
for my cheapo student version (practically free), it has all the models that I want, so no complaint there.
| quote: | Originally posted by classd4sure
It doesnt' take any longer to wire up a quick circuit in orcad once you know your way around it, and when you're done it actually works, which saves you alot of time in the end.
Chris |
it is getting to know your way around it that takes a little bit of time which unfortunately I don't have.
this whole thing is in our different perspectives. I have no time and my multisim has models that I need. you have time but your multisim doesn't have the models that you need. so it works out for me but not for you. not that you are right or I am right.
As to simulation accuracy, I have not found huge differrences between orcad, multisim (2001 and 7), protel (se99 and dxp), and ltspice (which in my view is the best all around simulator).
they are all capable for what I want them to do. it is just multisim is the easiest of the bunch. |
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| classd4sure |
Hi,
| quote: | | it is getting to know your way around it that takes a little bit of time which unfortunately I don't have. |
I fully agree with you on that one. Which is why when I was a student I avoided it as well, also my school was pushing multisim, it's what they used, so it's what I HAD to use..I've come a long way since.
I found it only took about two days to learn my way around pspice, in the sense of easily getting a basic circuit happening, before it came second nature, so it's really not that sharp of a curve.
I too was impressed with Ltspice, and will keep an eye on it's progress, it seems most promissing. You just can't do as much with it..yet.
Try simulating a VCO using a 555 in multisim, that was one of those "known issues fixed in the next version"..
For the 200$ or so of the student version, you actually get very little with it.
Anyway, it's simply good to be aware, there are options to it, this way, it's limitations don't hold you back at all.
Chris |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by classd4sure
Try simulating a VCO using a 555 in multisim, that was one of those "known issues fixed in the next version"..
Chris |
I didn't know that. Can you post a circuit and I will try to simulate it both in protel dxp and multisim. |
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| destroyer X |
Take a look in the results, hello Millwood, welcome!
Regards,
Carlos |
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| classd4sure |
Hi
I forget the exact circuit I did before, but if you are that curious just try a basic 555 astable oscillator at a reasonable frequency, and then instead of grounding pin 5 use it as your signal input, which should modulate the output. To be perfectly fair, I never tried this circuit in orcad either.
You may find that it actually does work now, as this was a version ago and said to be "known bug and will be addressed in the next version"....would be interesting to know if they did fix it.
Carlos, nice circuit, clean...dont' mean to hijack your thread either, sorry, back on topic.
Chris |
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| destroyer X |
When i open a thread, i expect people read, and talk too, have ideas, make jokes, and discuss other things too, and when needed to talk about main subject i can talk too... stay here, and go on your spice ideas, it is interesting, if someone enters to talk about the amplifier, we go an talk.... you wellcome, our house.
Carlos |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by classd4sure
Hi
I forget the exact circuit I did before, but if you are that curious just try a basic 555 astable oscillator at a reasonable frequency, and then instead of grounding pin 5 use it as your signal input, which should modulate the output. To be perfectly fair, I never tried this circuit in orcad either.
Chris |
here is my simulation / circuit. It does seem to be working in my version of multisim 2001. |
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| classd4sure |
Hi,
I saw an interesting circuit using a 555 a month or two ago..I'll see if I can dig it up again, this would be a neat spice test, not sure if I can find it again though. See what happens.
Chris |
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| classd4sure |
Hi,
Regretfully I can't find what I had in mind..searched for over an hour. It was a single 555 based delta type modulator I think...They reversed the usual timing cap (take the cap and one resistor and flip em around so it's 1 resistor from VCC, then the cap, than the second resistor)....with the audio input right to the cap.
Might play with that idea myself just for kicks some rainy day :) Anyway... No need to go to such extents to find bugs in multisim is there? :)
My favorite is still that THD demo circuit it comes with, run it, tweak the input voltage a bit...watch the THD skyrocket...and no matter what you'll never get it back down again. Odd results.
Chris |
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| subwo1 |
| Sounds like the algorithm becomes corrupted.:smash: |
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| destroyer X |
Give me more informations related the good one.
Carlos |
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| classd4sure |
Hi,
Carlos, I've never heard or seen that one before, I just looked it up and it looks....void of features.
Here's the link to a demo of capture/ pspice, I don't know how limited the demo is as to the full version.
http://www.orcad.com/downloads/orcadlite10/default.asp
Here is a link to LTspice
http://www.linear.com/software/
This is a very good simulator, accurate results and fast, only it's everything "Linear Technologies", worth having a look at, but I think you'll find pspice the more potent program.
Chris
PS: Be a patient man when you're first working with capture/pspice, it's loaded with features/tools, everything, so it takes a bit of getting used to, but you'll find it very worth your effort in the end. |
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| destroyer X |
This way i will ask a friend with Velox 500K connection to download it to me.
Thank you and go ahead, a will let a message to the ones that wants to know about amplifier.
The tests where done and are already written in this thread.
Thank you all, the attention, and do not mind..... our house, go ahead.
Carlos |
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| destroyer X |
This way, you are doing wonderfull job, keeping the thread in evidence to the 3000 people that came to see anounce about amplifier came again to read the conclusion.
Not disturbing....oposite situation....keeping our thread alive.... really, our house...keep lights on, and show people that have alive people inside!
Thank you... do not stop... go deep.... got to way reach 6000 or a little bit more of visits, this way, all the ones came to see anounce of the amplifier will also read conclusion.
Carlos |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by AKSA
The nose is twisting left and right.
It should be getting longer.......
Carlos, you are 1 crazy guy......
Cheers,
Hugh |
Hello Hugh,
I just got an email from Alma Crocker handling this little problem. [spam] [joke]
:clown: |
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| millwood |
| BTW, how do you get to measure thd in orcad? it is very simple in multisim but I am not sure how to do tha tin orcad (short of measuring each harmonic and manually add them up). |
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| destroyer X |
Bye Kwak
regards,
Carlos |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by destroyer X
Bye Kwak
regards,
Carlos |
Hohohohohohohohoho!
:clown: |
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