| flypig |
I want to build a small volume sealed sub. (Small is important for maximum wife compatibility.)
Since I am in India wondering what drivers I could use. 8" 10"?
Has anyone used Peerless India drivers for a sub? Any good?
Any other suggestions for something available locally?
It would be used with music most of the time. I am not looking for just hi spl for home theatre. |
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| ashok |
Don't forget to look at the Chinese Dainty sub-woofers.They are affordable and their specs look OK for your application. If the specs are reasonably close to the published figures they might be better than Boltons or the local Peerless. I guess the ( Peerless India) export variety may meet the specs.
I was told that a new range of Taiwanese drivers will come into the market in June or July.
Check the forum for the Dainty specs :http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...2717#post352717
Cheers. |
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| flypig |
Well the Boltons I definitely wont look at. Any known dealer for the Daintys on Lamington Road? Most vendors seemed to have just one or two models.
Dev (Lamington Road) seems to have lots of Peerless in stock. 8" sub was Rs. 860... But u got to buy a pair.
Thanks for the pointer to the Dainty specs. the shops just sell em by size :xeye: |
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| rakeshln |
Well i have got the data sheet of Peerless India speaker range. I am looking for a 3 way floor standers.. There are a couple of 10" woofer models, im sure u can use them as subs.
Well even im looking for variety of LS distributors in Mumbai only if they are professionals. |
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| Vivek |
Hi,
Are there any Peerless India 8 inch drivers? I might need a couple.
Vivek |
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| ashok |
I've used their 8 inch drivers. OK for bass. I wouldn't use them for anything higher than say 300Hz.
Cheers,
Ashok. |
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| Vivek |
Hi,
Is there any place I can buy them right now?
Vivek |
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| ashok |
As far as I know you can only get it in Bombay.
Ask our Bombay pals to arrange it for you. You can send them the money and they can get the shop to ship it to you.
What about Dainty ? Might be a better bet and cheaper .
Cheers. |
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| navin |
if small is a criteria you can make a sub smaller by going isobarik. the VB will be little more than half that of a single driver sub.
going by reputation i'd look at Bolton before Peerless India and Dainty. Angshu might be able to help you there. |
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| ashok |
rakeshln ,
Can you post the Peerless specs that you have . If you got it off the web give us the URL.
Have you confirmed that the published specs are close to the measured specs ?
Cheers. |
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| flypig |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vivek
Hi,
Is there any place I can buy them right now?
Vivek |
Vivek if you want them in Bangalore I can help. Can send them there if its just a few. Will have to check with my cousin though as to when he can have them pick them up from here.
If you tell me what u are looking for I will check availability and post back here. |
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| flypig |
| quote: | Originally posted by navin
if small is a criteria you can make a sub smaller by going isobarik. the VB will be little more than half that of a single driver sub.
going by reputation i'd look at Bolton before Peerless India and Dainty. Angshu might be able to help you there. |
Navin, yes small is important to me.
Did'nt know Bolton had subs. Any model numbers? |
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| Vivek |
Hi Flypig,
My Vifa 2 way system is not producing enough bass. So, I was thinking of an 8 inch woofer for the deep bass. I am experimenting with them to see if the bass can be improved.
Will the drivers be available for some time because I want to make sure adding them will give me better results. I am still in a fix whether to stick to the 2 way or go 3 way. I hope you understand.
Thanks,
Vivek
PS: The Bolton sub driver model number is 20SBW22. |
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| ashok |
If you are using local drivers it might be better to use a 10 inch or bigger for a sub. The smaller drivers do not go deep enough .
Between the Peerless 10 inch and 8 inch drivers used as a sub , the 10 inch is clearly very much better.
Cheers. |
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| angshudas |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vivek
Hi Flypig,
My Vifa 2 way system is not producing enough bass. So, I was thinking of an 8 inch woofer for the deep bass. I am experimenting with them to see if the bass can be improved.
Will the drivers be available for some time because I want to make sure adding them will give me better results. I am still in a fix whether to stick to the 2 way or go 3 way. I hope you understand.
Thanks,
Vivek
PS: The Bolton sub driver model number is 20SBW22. |
Vivek,
As I told you off line, as per the model the TC18 will give you adequate bass in a 2 way system. Please try and make the box as per the model, it will be bit large, and you do not mind it, do the correct port tuning and you should get good results. Since you have already purchased the Vifa drivers it is best to experiment as per the design rules.
Bolton makes quite a few 10 inch 12 inch sub woofers. The fs is in the range of 27-29Hz, but the Q is quite high, above 0.6. I would prefer the Peerless India drivers, but supply is so erratic, where as you are assured delivery of the Bolton drivers.
Angshu |
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| ashok |
Angshu,
That comment about the high Q drivers caught my attention.
You seem to have a lot of experience with Bolton drivers.
Can you recommend any Bolton 12 or 15 inch drivers ( model numbers) that have high Q in the range of 0.7 to 1.2 . Have you any experience with 12 and 15 inch drivers available in Delhi ( Chandni Chowk area)? I saw some very nice looking 15 inch woofers for about Rs1,800/- a couple of years ago.
Thanks.
Ashok. |
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| navin |
| quote: | Originally posted by angshudas
As I told you off line, as per the model the TC18 will give you adequate bass in a 2 way system. |
there are 3 ways 2 use the TC18.
in small aperiodic sealed box (20L) with a 8" for the bass (40L).
in a large box (55L)
in a 2.5 way using 2 TC18s. The 2.5 way can also mean that the box size for both drivers need not be the same. I do recomend that in a 2.5 way the box for each driver be seperate. Dave (plante 10) would also recomend push-push. I asume a box about 70L would be adequate for 2 x TC18.
either way your box would be about 60-70L. |
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| flypig |
| quote: | Originally posted by angshudas
I would prefer the Peerless India drivers, but supply is so erratic, where as you are assured delivery of the Bolton drivers.
Angshu |
Well if someone wants Peerless in Delhi / Bangalore I can try and find drivers and get them to you. (assuming my cousins are willing to be couriers ;) )
Can say how fast I can get them to u, but will definitely make the effort. |
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| Vivek |
Navin,
| quote: | | in a 2.5 way using 2 TC18s. The 2.5 way can also mean that the box size for both drivers need not be the same. I do recomend that in a 2.5 way the box for each driver be seperate. Dave (plante 10) would also recomend push-push. I asume a box about 70L would be adequate for 2 x TC18. |
I would love to try this but some of the other guys on the forum told me that a 2.5 way will have 4 ohm nominal impedance for the woofer that handles the lower frequencies. I am just terrified that my Denon receiver will blow up. The specs for the receiver say 6 to 16 ohm speakers only. I know the impedance will not remain the same but still the receiver cost me an arm and a leg.
Angshu,
| quote: | | As I told you off line, as per the model the TC18 will give you adequate bass in a 2 way system. Please try and make the box as per the model, it will be bit large, and you do not mind it, do the correct port tuning and you should get good results. Since you have already purchased the Vifa drivers it is best to experiment as per the design rules. |
I am trying out various things to see if there is improvement.
Vivek |
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| rakeshln |
TS parameters of 8inch woofer 8ohms (SKO-204WFR)
Fs=40Hz
P=75W
Sensitivity, E=92dB
V.C. dia=25mm
V.C. height=9.5mm
Air gap=5mm
Re=6.19ohms
Cms=0.78mm/N
Mms=17.8g
Qms=4.23
Qes=0.47
Qts=0.43
Vas=58.2L
S=230.6sq.cm
Request Mr. Vinod or Mr. Dilip Devjani of Dev Electronics(Peerless India dealer), Shop no.63, 1st flr, Rajesh bldg, opp. Lamington Rd Police stn., Mumbai-7 for a getting the spec sheets photocopied.
Attn.
Bolton and Dainty dealers supply TS parameters? |
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| navin |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vivek
I would love to try this but some of the other guys on the forum told me that a 2.5 way will have 4 ohm nominal impedance for the woofer that handles the lower frequencies. |
I would not worry too much about that.
1. in a 2.5 way the impedance drops to 4ohms or even 3 ohms over only a small freq. range. In this case it would be from 80-400Hz.
2. what denon reciever do you have? does it have connections for 2 pairs of speakers? I find it hard to believe that in this day and age you get amps that cant handle impedances below 6 ohms. the original watt (wilson audio tiny tot) impedance fell to 1.5 ohms. I have run 2 pairs of 4 ohm (nominal impedance) speakers using an old Harmon Kardon PM665 integrated amp in 1987 for few hours without a problem. |
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| Vivek |
Mine is the AVR 1403. 60W per channel @ 8 ohm impedance. And yes, it has connections for two pairs of speakers. The label on the back says 6 to 16 ohm if only speaker A is connected and 12 to 16 ohm when both pairs A and B are connected. What say thou?
Vivek |
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| navin |
me thinks the 1403 will do ok if not stressed. i looked at this and noticed that it might run low impedance loads if they are mostly resistive. hope you are using a zobel on the woofers. that will help.
while a 2.5 way TC18 would prefer a beefier amp like the 1803 the 1403 will be fine if you dont demand more than say 10-15W continous from it.
given that you do get a 3db sens gain from a 2.5 way i'd say that is a fair tradeoff.
10W rms might not sould like much but at 1m that would mean you'd be doing 98db and about 92db at 2m. not too shabby. add room reinforcement and for a mid sized indian apt. (200 sq. ft. 9ft ceiling) this should do fine for all but party applications.
one reviewer stated that he has used the 1403 with the MMG (maggie). the maggie is a low impedance speaker but the load is quite resistive. resistive loads dont stress an amp as much as a reacitve load. |
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| Vivek |
I do not have zobels right now but intend to put them in.
My receiver has volume control from minus 60 to plus 18. I usually listen to music at -35 or -30 if I want it a little louder. Maybe I should try a 2.5 way. I might just go out and buy a couple more TC18s.
The Vifa dealer here also seems to think there should be no problem. He says he uses his MTM designs (with two 8 ohm woofers in parallel) with his Denon receiver and there is no problem. He has a speaker company called Acoustic Portrait and he says the measured impedance hovers around 6 ohm. He feels there will not be a problem.
Vivek |
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| navin |
| while u are doing that can i suggest 2.5 way push push? |
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| Vivek |
I have no idea how push push works. Is it two woofers mounted back to front?
Thanks,
Vivek |
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| kspv |
| Is Vivek referring to Mr.Shiva of Corrson, opposite Sagar Apollo Hospital, 15th Cross, Jayanagar 4th T Block, Bangalore? |
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| flypig |
| quote: | Originally posted by rakeshln
Request Mr. Vinod or Mr. Dilip Devjani of Dev Electronics(Peerless India dealer), Shop no.63, 1st flr, Rajesh bldg, opp. Lamington Rd Police stn., Mumbai-7 for a getting the spec sheets photocopied.
Attn.
Bolton and Dainty dealers supply TS parameters? [/B] |
Dev has Dainty too. But could not find the specs yesterday.
The 8" Peerles is Rs. 950 & the 10" is Rs. 1800. :bigeyes:
And he rather sell a pair. Was making abit of a fuss selling a single.
Is it worth paying double for them? |
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| navin |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vivek
I have no idea how push push works. Is it two woofers mounted back to front? |
yes that is it. the 90 deg phase shift of the 1st order LP XO for the second woofer is compensated by the rear placement.
dave planet 10 has a longer explanation on his website |
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| Vivek |
KSPV,| quote: | | Is Vivek referring to Mr.Shiva of Corrson, opposite Sagar Apollo Hospital, 15th Cross, Jayanagar 4th T Block, Bangalore? |
I am referring to Shiva of Corrson.
Navin,
Got it. Let me do some more reading on the subject. I will let you know what happens.
Thanks,
Vivek |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vivek
Got it. Let me do some more reading on the subject. I will let you know what happens. |
Vivek, we've been in touch off-line, and I've let you know whatever I think about your speaker project. As you've seen, I've never recommended push-push for your case, though Navin, Dave and others keep talking about it. The best piece I've read on the push-push approach is the subwoofer design that Lynn Olson has suggested for use with the ME2. I wanted to give you a URL to that write-up, but it's no longer there in the original site, and I couldn't find a new location for the page. (Help me, anyone?)
The reason why I don't recommend a push-push for a two-way is because one driver will face backwards at fairly high frequencies. If your push-push pair rolls off at 100Hz like most subs, it's great. (That's the kind of application Lynn Olson described, for instance. His ME2s give an F3 of about 70Hz, and his Ariels about 55Hz, IIRC. So he can afford to let his sub cut off at 100Hz or even lower.)
At frequencies above about 150Hz, drivers are clearly very directional and a rearward facing driver will give you its output bounced from the rear wall. This will almost certainly muddy the midrange and the soundstaging, IMHO. But I've never made a push-push of this kind and actually listened to it, so I may be wrong. All I can say is that given my current level of knowledge, I'd never try to make a two-way with push-push midbass drivers. Push-push subs (true subwoofers, not just woofers, mind you) are a different issue altogether. |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by tcpip
The best piece I've read on the push-push approach is the subwoofer design that Lynn Olson has suggested for use with the ME2. I wanted to give you a URL to that write-up, but it's no longer there in the original site, and I couldn't find a new location for the page. (Help me, anyone?) |
As usual, friends on the forum came to my rescue within minutes. So you can check the article here. I still re-read it to get my concepts cleared once in a while... :) |
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| Vivek |
| quote: | Originally posted by tcpip
As usual, friends on the forum came to my rescue within minutes. So you can check the article here. I still re-read it to get my concepts cleared once in a while... :) |
I have read this article earlier. Thanks anyway.
Vivek |
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| navin |
| quote: | Originally posted by tcpip
Vivek, we've been in touch off-line, and I've let you know whatever I think about your speaker project. At frequencies above about 150Hz, drivers are clearly very directional and a rearward facing driver will give you its output bounced from the rear wall. ... Push-push subs (true subwoofers, not just woofers, mind you) are a different issue altogether. |
pls read...
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/.../intro-bds.html
1. the rear woofer will roll of at about 300Hz 6db. Yes there will be considerable output above 150Hz and even as high as 600Hz. if the speaker is kept less than 3 ft from the rar wall tis will muddy the midrange if you can afford to bring the speaker out 3ft or more then the delay will add space to the sound.
2. there is research to show the some reflectins make matters worse with others help. very early reflections usually muddy the sound, very late relfections make the sound wierd like it has an echo.
i respect lynn and dave. dave has used / recomended dipole for fullranges like the FE103 and JX92.
in addition to this I have some experience with the roll off from firing a woofer rear wards. one way fo you to quickly find out. is to disconnect your tweeter and turn your cabinet 180 deg. you will then hear the woofer somewhat. dipoles are more room dependant that monopoles. ever tried setting speakerslike Maggies up? AAARGH! |
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| angshudas |
| quote: | Originally posted by ashok
Angshu,
That comment about the high Q drivers caught my attention.
You seem to have a lot of experience with Bolton drivers.
Can you recommend any Bolton 12 or 15 inch drivers ( model numbers) that have high Q in the range of 0.7 to 1.2 . Have you any experience with 12 and 15 inch drivers available in Delhi ( Chandni Chowk area)? I saw some very nice looking 15 inch woofers for about Rs1,800/- a couple of years ago.
Thanks.
Ashok. |
Ashok,
I have played around with the Boltons a bit, and tried some of their drivers. I think, for those starting DIY and building their first box, Bolton can be good drivers to experiment. They are quite affordable and can tolerate abuse.
Bolton makes a dome tweeter which looks good but SPL curves vary from driver to driver and I do not use them any more, I rather like the Philips dome, with the Boltons they do not sound too bad.
I have not experimented with any 10/12 inch Bolton woofers yet, but I briefly measured the Fs and Q for these following drivers.
25IMW21 Fs=30.4, Qms=4.9, Qes 0.66 Qts 0.58
30IMW22 Fs=29.4, Qms=6.05, Qes0.763, Qts 0.68
I have not taken the Vas readings yet. The above readings were taken in the Bolton factory one evening, so I did not have a test box to measure the Vas. To measure Vas I would have to buy the drivers.
Bolton does not publish any TS parameters.
So far I have been able to specify my coil length and magnet size, so I could get one off custom made drivers. Mr. Monga the owner is a nice man and encourages DIYer to experiment with his drivers. You can write to him directly and order your drivers, they will be much cheaper than your local dealers.
I have seen many drivers in Chadni Chowk, but have not purchased any yet. They are not that cheap either.
I had measured one Dainty 8 incher SW801
Fs=54.9,Qms=3.92, Qes=1.57, Qts=1.12 Vas 18.9L
Angshu |
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| ashok |
Hi Angshu,
Thanks for the interesting info on the Bolton drivers. You are right , I better contact Mr. Monga and see what I can get.
The Chandni Chowk drivers were expensive .
I wonder how long the Bolton drivers last . I mean the glues , the spiders and the surrounds. I guess all of it is imported !
Thanks,
Ashok. |
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| navin |
| i would like to know what the OD of the Bolton 8" is. By this i mean the frame/basket OD. anyone? |
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| angshudas |
| quote: | Originally posted by ashok
Hi Angshu,
I wonder how long the Bolton drivers last . I mean the glues , the spiders and the surrounds. I guess all of it is imported !
Thanks,
Ashok. |
Ashok,
I am using Bolton 16SJW22 for more than 5 years, beat them up real hard, still playing fine. Never had any problems with their drivers, except for dome tweeters. Once I had a minor mechanical problem and Monga replaced it promptly. He uses imported cones.
You can reach Bolton at:
Bolton Private Ltd
14/3 Milestone
Mathura Road
Faridabad 121 003 Haryana
Tel 0129 227 5410, 0129 227 5332
You can call the second number and speak to Rajbeer for prices. You can take my reference.
Mr Monga does not have email, all written communication is by normal mail. So it can take a while to get a response. In case you face any difficulties then let me know.
I am attaching a page from his old catalog, some of these drivers may be still available, please call Rajveer and confirm availability.
Angshu |
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| navin |
1. wow 16 ohms drivers!
2. Flux Density in Gauss? (usually this is quoted in Tesla)
3. also i notice that for the 8/10/12" models the power handling and sens. increase is this correct. |
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| angshudas |
| quote: | Originally posted by navin
1. wow 16 ohms drivers!
2. Flux Density in Gauss? (usually this is quoted in Tesla)
3. also i notice that for the 8/10/12" models the power handling and sens. increase is this correct. |
Navin,
Ignore all the specs after the 3rd column. The list is only to get an idea on the model numbers and the type of cone used. You need to take all the measurements yourself.
As for the OD for the 8 inch driver, it is 8 inches.
Angshu |
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| navin |
| 8" can mean 200mm-215mm. for me anything over 208mm and under 206mm wont work. my cabinet is finished and polished and at 80 kgs each moving them back to the polisher is difficult and expensive. |
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| angshudas |
| quote: | Originally posted by navin
8" can mean 200mm-215mm. . |
It is 203.2mm, exactly 8 inches. |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by angshudas
It is 203.2mm, exactly 8 inches. |
One of the things I've discovered about Bolton drivers after getting them 16SJW22s is that Monga Sahib characterises driver diameters based on the measurement of the outer rim of the mounting flange, i.e. the largest physical circle you can get on a driver. Other manufacturers seem to characterise driver diameters based on the dia of the moving cone. No such hanky panky here, thank you sir! With Bolton, what you see, literally, is what you get. :D |
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| navin |
| most manufacturers (SS, Vifa, Focal) use Mogna's method (so a close variation of that) that way a driver with a 140-150mm cone becomes a 7" woofer. Jordan however does not. their JX125 for example has a 125mm cone and a 170mm OD. |
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| Vivek |
Hi,
I know this thread has gone haywire and we are discussing everything under the sun but the Peerless (India) Sub as titled. But since I had a lot of doubts whether my Denon AVR 1403 can handle 4 ohm loads and this was discussed on this thread, let me settle the matter here. I was going through the receiver manual and I found this on one of the pages.
To quote: ``The protector circuit may be activated if the set is played for long periods of time at high volumes when speakers with an impedance lower than the specified impedance i.e 6 to 16 ohm (for example speakers with an impedance of lower than 4 ohm) are connected. If the protector circuit is activated, the speaker output is cut off. Turn off the set's power, wait for the set to cool down, improve the ventilation around the set and then turn the power back on.''
That clears things up, does it not?
Cheers,
Vivek |
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