| shugg |
Hi
I have 2 monoblocks and preamp which need decent interconnects, read some reviews and it seems I need oxygen free/teflon cables. There's a big variance in prices. Is this reflected in the quality of sound? , any real world experiences/advice welcome.
cheers
shugg |
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| Sch3mat1c |
| quote: | Originally posted by shugg
There's a big variance in prices. Is this reflected in the quality of sound? |
Only if you believe it is.
Tim |
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| G |
| Build yourself a pair of interconnect with a couple of strands of CAT 5 cable and you will have as good if not better interconnects than those "high dollar" interconnects. They are made to separate you from your money mostly. Cheers. |
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| DrDeville |
| quote: | Originally posted by G
Build yourself a pair of interconnect with a couple of strands of CAT 5 cable and you will have as good if not better interconnects than those "high dollar" interconnects. They are made to separate you from your money mostly. Cheers. |
Or to "interconnect" the manufacturer to your wallet. ;)
Best,
George "But If It Works For You, Great!" Ferguson |
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| roddyama |
| I have found microphone cable to make excellent interconnects. I used Mogami (because it's available in the states), but I'm sure you can find something in the UK. |
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| serengetiplains |
Shugg, you might borrow a pair of good interconnects, spend a few weeks listening, then replace with an el-cheapo variety. You probably will hear a difference. What value you place on any difference you hear is your point of decision.
Oxidized copper, copper oxide, is an insulator. More highly oxygenated copper probably is noisier than the more oxygen free variety on the theory that pockets of copper oxide create noise-inducing boundary and diode effects. Silver does not similarly suffer the fate of oxygen as silver oxide is a conductor.
A second, audible factor influencing the sound (ie, the electrical behaviour) of cables, in my opinion, are dielectric effects of the surrounding insulation. Dielectric effects are undesirable because they introduce into the wire spurious electrical signals and phase anomalies at a level dependent, generally speaking, on the dielectric constant of the insulating substance. Teflon is the generally preferred insulator because it has a lower DC and therefore lower inherent levels of dielectric absorption etc. Air is the best dielectric but contains .... oxygen.
The highly regarded Nordost cables use silver surrounded by a mostly air (oxygen-free?) dielectric. |
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| jam |
| Which brand ........Moderator San? |
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| roddyama |
| quote: | Originally posted by jam
Which brand ........Moderator San? |
Didn't you read my post?:D |
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| pedroskova |
| Look for interconnects made in Nepal(or maybe Mexico City or LA)....much easier to make things oxygen-free when there's little oxygen hanging around to muck things up. ;) |
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| jlsem |
| quote: | | Oxidized copper, copper oxide, is an insulator. More highly oxygenated copper probably is noisier than the more oxygen free variety on the theory that pockets of copper oxide create noise-inducing boundary and diode effects. Silver does not similarly suffer the fate of oxygen as silver oxide is a conductor. |
Actually, copper oxide is a semiconductor - read diode - and it's rectifying effect on the signal is what causes all the problems, noise as well as loss of detail. Silver doesn't oxidize at room temperature; the tarnish you are seeing is a silver-sulphur compound that is nearly as conductive as silver and has little if any effect on the signal. You should always try to use oxygen-free copper at the least on anything you are going to put a lot of work into building and OCC copper or silver would be even better.
You can always find high quality well-made interconnects on eBay for pennies on the dollar, German eBay in particular.
John |
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| serengetiplains |
| quote: | Originally posted by jlsem
Silver doesn't oxidize at room temperature; the tarnish you are seeing is a silver-sulphur compound that is nearly as conductive as silver and has little if any effect on the signal. |
John, would you then recommend, from the vantage point of sonic purity, using uncoated silver wire, say, for speaker cables etc (assuming one tapes apart or otherwise reliably separates the cables)?
Tom |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
You could also try cotton sleeving as an insulator which has even better properties than PTFE (even extruded) from a DA pov and has good mechanical damping to boot.
Regarding silver: I have bare silver wire lying around at the office for about 10 years, unprotected from airborne contaminants.
It hardly shows any sign of tarnishing at all.
Cheers,;) |
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| jlsem |
| quote: | | John, would you then recommend, from the vantage point of sonic purity, using uncoated silver wire, say, for speaker cables etc (assuming one tapes apart or otherwise reliably separates the cables)? |
I think that using a coated wire would give you a little more flexibility in trying different configurations. I like braided ofc similar to Kimber myself - easy, elegant and effective.
Braided cotton or silk (like Frank suggests) over coated silver wire is a good way of making up your own interconnects.
John |
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| serengetiplains |
Thanks, Frank and John.
:) |
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| Sch3mat1c |
ISTR the minute amounts (<100ppm) of oxygen in the common brew of copper (wire, water pipes, etc.) is there to improve both electrical and mechanical characteristics. *IMPROVE*.
This reminds me, I should go grab some of that stainless lockwire and make some cables and stuff. (some 10 times more resistive than copper!) Bet it'll make my speakers really sing.
Tim |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | ISTR the minute amounts (<100ppm) of oxygen in the common brew of copper (wire, water pipes, etc.) is there to improve both electrical and mechanical characteristics. *IMPROVE*. |
As said...*MECHANICAL* improvements, but not sonic improvements.
| quote: | | This reminds me, I should go grab some of that stainless lockwire and make some cables and stuff. |
Could also make yourself a nice swing with it...
In the meantime I'll go cleaning the waterpipes....
Cheers,;) |
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| jlsem |
| quote: | | ...improve electrical characteristics. *IMPROVE*. |
I'd like to see this.
John |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
You could also try cotton sleeving as an insulator which has even better properties than PTFE (even extruded) from a DA pov... |
That's still open to question.
The figure for cotton seems to come from the same big-*** list of dielectric constants that's floating around on dozens of websites out there.
I don't think the 1.3-1.4 figure holds except in its fluffy, cotton ball form and that in the textile form where the fibers are more closely packed, the figure would be higher.
The figures I've seen from textile industry sources put it in the 3+ range. This seems to make sense given that cotton is pretty much pure cellulose and in the same table the dielectric constant for cellulose is specified at 3.2-7.5.
Seems the only way for cotton to achieve 1.3-1.4 is if there's a hell of a lot more air than cotton fibers as would be the case in its cotton ball form.
Of course even if cotton's dielectric constant were significantly higher than 1.3-1.4 that doesn't necessarily mean it will sound bad, except perhaps to those so singularly obsessed with technical specs. :)
se |
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| anatech |
Can't resist.... are you going to "burn" the cables in first before a serious listening session?
I find a decent fine copper strand "zip cord" type works as good as any. No reason for anything over 16GA unless you are pounding over 100W through them. Generally that type of wire is very flexible & easy to work with.
Everything else is audio jewlery.
-Chris |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | The figure for cotton seems to come from the same big-*** list of dielectric constants that's floating around on dozens of websites out there. |
Hmmm...It was looking way too good to be true anyway.
| quote: | | This seems to make sense given that cotton is pretty much pure cellulose and in the same table the dielectric constant for cellulose is specified at 3.2-7.5. |
Makes sense to me.
| quote: | | Of course even if cotton's dielectric constant were significantly higher than 1.3-1.4 that doesn't necessarily mean it will sound bad, except perhaps to those so singularly obsessed with technical specs. |
Occasionally I did find sticking cottonballs in my ears improved the sound markedly...:D
Thx for the update,;) |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by jlsem
I'd like to see this. |
The precisely controlled addition of oxygen scavenges impurities and takes them out of solution and into solid form which improves conductivity.
Oxygen-free copper was developed not for its electrical properties, but its mechanical properties. If oxygenated copper is heated in a reducing atmosphere such as hydrogen, the copper can become embrittled due to the reaction of hydrogen and oxygen (can you say steam?).
Even the Ohno Continuous Cast Copper was developed for its mechanical properties and not its electrical properties.
I haven't seen any evidence that there's anything electrically wrong with even plain ol' ETP copper that wouldn't be so far buried within the thermal noise of the wire itself that it's not woth losing any sleep over.
What people ultimately subjectively prefer is another matter.
se |
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| rentiap |
Hello shugg.
I can't comment on oxygen free interconnects but I do have alot of experinnce building interconnects( And PCs.) as per Chris Venhaus websight. http://venhaus1.com/
I have built many pairs for myself and for friends.
We have done completely blind tests and can very easily hear the difference between these and verry expensive interconnects.They actually leave the others in the dust. We feel that they are well worth the effort and minimal expense. my first sets I built around cotton rope but I feel the teflon tubing stuffed with cotton are better. The cost for a 3 foot pair or 1 meter pair are approx $60.00 If you have any questions on construction feel free to e-mail me.
Regards.
Craig |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hmmm...It was looking way too good to be true anyway. |
Hehehe. Oh I dunno. I suppose you could get yourself a few bags of cotton balls and string some wire through them. You know, like that garland made of popcorn for Christmas trees. :)
| quote: | | Occasionally I did find sticking cottonballs in my ears improved the sound markedly...:D |
Hehehe. Yes, I've encountered a few situations like that myself. :)
| quote: | | Thx for the update,;) |
Sure. When I get some time I'll start making some calls and see if I can get a more definitive answer.
se |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by rentiap
my first sets I built around cotton rope but I feel the teflon tubing stuffed with cotton are better. The cost for a 3 foot pair or 1 meter pair are approx $60.00 |
Have you seen the cotton served solid core silver wire that Chris is now selling on the VH Audio site yet?
se |
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| rentiap |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Have you seen the cotton served solid core silver wire that Chris is now selling on the VH Audio site yet?
se |
Hey Steve;
Yes I've seen it but havn't tried it as of yet.
How much better can these ICs get?
--
Craig |
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| rentiap |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Have you seen the cotton served solid core silver wire that Chris is now selling on the VH Audio site yet?
se |
Have you used it? and if so do you notice a difference ?
--
:goodbad:
--
Craig. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Quotes from Chris Venhaus' site:
| quote: | | * Ultra-low capacitance (there is a direct correlation with capacitance and signal rise-time, with interconnects) |
I absolutely agree but there's an easier solution than spiraling to maintain low capacitance and reasonable inductance figures. Simply use a twinfeed arrangement as I did in a range of silver I/Cs I designed aeons ago.
| quote: | | * Fine gauge (28 ga) cotton-insulated silver wire to minimize skin-effect/time-smear and dielectric absorption, and maximize vibration dampening. |
DA may be disappointing in real life but O.K., there's more to a good cable than that alone. Cotton seems to have good damping properties. I used nylon shreds as a filler.
| quote: | | A dielectric as close to "air" as can be obtained, and yet be practical. Cotton has a dielectric constant of 1.3-1.4 vs. 2.0-2.1 for teflon. |
Well, the DC factor seems mostly based on the properties of air as an insulator anyway...What is it going to sound like after a while in harsh environments after a few years?
You could always seal the lot and make it more or less gastight, that should keep it from further contamination.
All in all I think there's a lot to be said for PTFE and enamellike insulators.
Those magnet wires always end up surprising me with good sound...
| quote: | | I have been contacted by a gentleman who made these IC's (he also had an L/C meter) and he measured the capacitance at 3.5 pF per foot, and 200 mH of total inductance! The results were obtained by using a 100k Ohm load on one end of the IC, and the reading taken at the other end. |
Looks O.K. to me but such measurements don't tell me much about the cables' ability to pass a complex signal unaltered under various loads. Nevertheless it's good to know those electrical properties.
Might cobble up something similar to CV's idea when I find some time...
Cheers,;) |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by rentiap
Yes I've seen it but havn't tried it as of yet.
How much better can these ICs get? |
Dunno. You'll have to answer that question for yourself I'm afraid. :)
se |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by rentiap
Have you used it? and if so do you notice a difference ? |
No, I haven't used it. I'm just not much of a fan of silver (though I do have a fondness for natural materials). I just think it's a nice unique product that I'm sure could provide excellent results for those whose tastes lean more toward silver and think it deserves bringing to their attention.
se |
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| jlsem |
| quote: | | Oxygen-free copper was developed not for its electrical properties, but its mechanical properties. |
| quote: | | Even the Ohno Continuous Cast Copper was developed for its mechanical properties and not its electrical properties. |
This is all well understood. My point all along has been that there are audible differences between OCCC, silver, and "run of the mill" copper. That is the happy side benefit for audiophiles of the development of ever purer grades of copper be it originally for mechanical or electrical improvement. Almost every technological development that we take advantage of in our endeavor was done for some other reason. Hardly any tubes were originally "audio" tubes and the inventors of different transformer-core alloys never had wierdo golden-ears in mind, etc.
John |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by jlsem
This is all well understood. My point all along has been that there are audible differences between OCCC, silver, and "run of the mill" copper. |
Don't know about audible. Again, we're talking about stuff buried in the thermal noise of the wire. Which itself is buried in the numerous other noise sources of the electronics, which is buried in the ambient noise of our listening rooms.
Certainly people perceive differences, and have their particular tastes and preferences. And that's cool. That's what I ultimately go with at the end of the day. As I said previously, I'm not much of a fan of silver. I don't know why exactly but I'm pretty sure it has absolutely nothing to do with silver's electrical properties.
se |
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| shugg |
Guys
Thanks for the replies very informative, I don't want to spend mad money on connects, guess I'll start off by visiting the site rentiap mentioned.
The dealer here says that I should spend at least £600 per pair of interconnects:eek: and he said it with a straight face.
We have a maplins electrical store here so I'll see what they have.
Thanks again.:)
cheers
shugg |
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| serengetiplains |
| quote: | Originally posted by shugg
We have a maplins electrical store here so I'll see what they have. |
Shugg, as another suggestion, you could purchase a small roll of teflon coated silver wire from:
http://www.a-msystems.com/electroni.../silvertef.aspx
Looks like they currently have sale prices! |
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| EC8010 |
| quote: | Originally posted by shugg
The dealer here says that I should spend at least £600 per pair of interconnects:eek: and he said it with a straight face. |
I imagine I could say all sorts of things with a straight face if my commission was involved!
If you want to go for silver, it is far cheaper to go to a precious metals dealer and buy "fine" silver (99.99% pure) in wire form, then post it down PTFE tubing. You will need to club together with a few friends because the dealer will want to sell you a couple of kg of silver, but it's far cheaper in the end.
I like silver because you get super soldered joints. I suspect that's why it sounds better, not because of any bulk conductive properties. |
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| jlsem |
| quote: | | Don't know about audible. Again, we're talking about stuff buried in the thermal noise of the wire. Which itself is buried in the numerous other noise sources of the electronics, which is buried in the ambient noise of our listening rooms. |
| quote: | | Certainly people perceive differences, and have their particular tastes and preferences. And that's cool. That's what I ultimately go with at the end of the day. As I said previously, I'm not much of a fan of silver. I don't know why exactly but I'm pretty sure it has absolutely nothing to do with silver's electrical properties. |
I am going to relate my own personal experience and it's going to involve some name-dropping.
When John Camille and Dennis Boyle were developing Camille's 211 shunt-regulated power amp some years ago, I would go in for a listen now and then. One day Dennis said they had changed something and asked if I could hear a difference. I'm no golden-ear, but the system sounded more detailed with a perceptably more realistic three-dimensional effect (I hate to use the term soundstage). All they had done was replace the wire with OCCC. I didn't believe that changing the wire in the signal path could make a difference and I went aound telling people I thought it was just b***s**t.
Anyway, I was later talking to Camille (who knew more than a little bit about noise in a circuit) about it and he explained to me that he thought that the oxygen in copper migrated into the interstices of the grain structure and the copper oxide rectified the weakest part of the signal. So in a word, long crystal copper wire was to a MUSIC SIGNAL similar to silver, jumpier was the word he used. Now, Camille expressed to me that he wasn't sure that it was such a good thing, which may explain your own personal distaste for silver.
That's all I know.
John |
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| serengetiplains |
| quote: | Originally posted by jlsem
When John Camille and Dennis Boyle were developing Camille's 211 shunt-regulated power amp some years ago, I would go in for a listen now and then. |
John, do you, or does anyone, know where I might find a copy of the 1993 (?) Sound Practices article describing this amplifier? Sorry to veer off topic, but I'm interested seeing the shunt regulator circuit.
Tom |
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| EC8010 |
| Their shunt reulator was adopted and developed by Allen Wright. I'm fairly sure these circuits are on the web, but I can't put my hand on the link. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Tom,
I'll scan and e-mail it to you.
Cheers,;) |
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| serengetiplains |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
I'll scan and e-mail it to you. |
Thank you much, Frank. |
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| DrDeville |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
Tom,
I'll scan and e-mail it to you.
Cheers,;) |
Me too, me too, me too!!
Please, please, please? :angel:
Best,
George "Ain't Too Proud to Beg" Ferguson |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Me too, me too, me too!! |
O.K., O.K....I hear you....
Push that e-mail button of mine on the bottom of this post and drop me a line.
Anyone else? Here's your chance...:cool:
Cheers,;) |
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| DrDeville |
| quote: | O.K., O.K....I hear you....
Push that e-mail button of mine on the bottom of this post and drop me a line.
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YAYYYYYY! :cloud9:
Thanks Frank, you rock ! :up: :D
Best,
George Ferguson |
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| jam |
| Me too.................what am I asking for?:D |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by jam
Me too.................what am I asking for?:D |
It. :headshot:
:D
se |
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| rentiap |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
It. :headshot:
:D
se |
It's nice to see a little humor on this site as many don't seem to have any:whazzat:
To serious
---
Craig |
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| shugg |
Hi Frank
Could I have a copy please, would have replied earlier but NTL nobbled my connection last night the ##@*
Cheers
Shugg |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Guys,
You all, except for Jam (I have IT already), need to send me an e-mail through the forum as I don't have your addresses and can't attach files that way.
Cheers, ;) |
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| roddyama |
Here is a line item from the Percy audio catalog:
"*MOGAMI 2534: Four conductor (24ga) 6mm D shielded microphone cable OFC Neglex copper, excellent for low cost interconnects… $1.15 per foot (50'+ less 10%)" |
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| jam |
Rodd,
There you go again, moderator san .............giving stuff away, you need a lesson in basic economics from P A . :D :D :D |
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| roddyama |
| quote: | Originally posted by jam
Rodd,
There you go again, moderator san .............giving stuff away, you need a lesson in basic economics from P A . :D :D :D |
I have no affiliation with Michael Percy.;) |
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| jam |
| I ment advice...............;) |
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