| LRRockBox |
I guess that, just like a great many enthousiasts, I would like to own a pair of Krell MRA's, Levenson 33's or big Pass monoblocks.
Unfortunately, I was swapped as a baby and now some poor mum's kid now has my very rich parents, so I have to work for a living and it's not in the cards.
So what would you good folks consider to be the best power amp achievable the diy route ?
I've been waiting a great many years to start building my own, and it seems now I have the time and funds to make a go of it.
Suggestions please !
Many thanks,
Peter R. |
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| Damon Hill |
How much power do you want, and how much
are you willing to spend in getting there? Any
other specific features that grab your interest?
Prior experience in electronics and building things?
Myself, I'm rather happy with my Leach amplifier;
does about 120 watts/8 ohms, 200 watts/4 ohms.
Very well documented, though maybe a bit
complex for a first-timer.
Others are happy with the AKSA amps, Sloans
MOSFET amps, various other projects such as the
Pass Zen class A amps and Gainclones. The
GainClones are about as simple a first time project
as you could hope for.
Which one is 'best' is largely a matter of opinion.
Do a tour of the Solid State and Chip Amplifier
threads and see what you can learn. |
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| LRRockBox |
Err, I may need to add a few comments,so...
I'm not exactly a first timer. To building an amp, yes, However, I do have a masters in electronics, and a VERY goo soldering iron :D
Power : yes please. I mesioned a threesome by the big US boys. I DO like the sound of 'em. Given the money, I'd seriously look into the X600 or the FPB's.
However, a substantial budget is available to me, furthermor, I don't have to spend it in one go, so funds can be 'slushed' without my better half (may the peace be upon her) being alerted.
I now have Infinity Kappa 80 speakers, rated 250W at 6 Ohms nominal, efficiency about 89 db/w/m. One day, I WILL get a pair of Nautili, though.
Oh, darn shame I only found out about the Levinson 38S printboards yesterday. I would have loved to get my hands on one of those for 400 S$, however much that is in real money :)
Peter R. |
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| traderbam |
Not exactly sure what you are asking. Are you asking which existing kit is the best or are you asking what the best possible sound a diy'er can achieve?
The exisiting amp kits I've seen on or refered to in this forum are not going to be anything near the sound of the brands you've mentioned. I estimate the best will give you a sound comparable to commercial products in the sub US$1000 area for a stereo amp.
This is not to say that you cannot build something better yourself. I think audio is one of the great levellers in that neither high levels of education nor years of making products seem to correlate strongly with sound quality. Nor is material cost strongly correlated. It is more a matter of how you think about the problem, what assumptions you make and how you test whether something sounds better than something else.
In principle, you you can make something that sounds as good or better than a Krell at under $300 parts cost. But you need to be wickedly cunning.
One bit of platinum advice from one engineer to another. You will have been taught a number of things in your masters course which will get in the way of you designing great audio, if designing is what you have in mind. A number of simplifying assumptions are made in electronics which work very well except in audio. Be very, very careful about this because this is what separates the Krells from the Leaches. |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by traderbam
The exisiting amp kits I've seen on or refered to in this forum are not going to be anything near the sound of the brands you've mentioned. I estimate the best will give you a sound comparable to commercial products in the sub US$1000 area for a stereo amp. |
| quote: | | In principle, you you can make something that sounds as good or better than a Krell at under $300 parts cost. But you need to be wickedly cunning. |
Your comments were very interesting to say the least. Let me make my motivation clear: I'm not trying to pick an argument with anyone, or show you how much I know. If you see my posts elsewhere, you'll know I'm quite new to the game.
However, based on my dabblings, I was getting the impression that a carefully constructed DIY amp, say a Randy Slone OptiMOS, could match the quality of a good $10K commercial amp. Am I wrong?
And... here's the part that I find really interesting: if I'm wrong, then what's the difference between something carefully designed by a Doug Self or a Randy Slone with decades of experience, and the really famous commercial brands like the Mark Levinsons or Krells or whatever? (I know that famous does not mean good... see Microsoft software quality, but for starters this is the best I could ask.)
I'm seriously really curious to know... how do the more sophisticated DIY Class B power amps compare with the more expensive, high-end, well-regarded commercial products? And if there is a difference, why is it there?
Remember, I'm not arguing, only asking. |
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| analog_sa |
| quote: | | I would like to own a pair of Krell MRA's, Levenson 33's or big Pass monoblocks. |
I would be very suspicious of most diy designs, especially those developed by 'experienced engineers' who believe all good amps sound the same. The few exceptions - Pass, JLH, Hiraga are all power deficient if otherwise exceptional.
You best bet will be to clone a commercial design - not a popular with this forum approach, but one more likely to fulfill your requirements. |
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| rif |
| quote: | Originally posted by LRRockBox
I guess that, just like a great many enthousiasts, I would like to own a pair of Krell MRA's, Levenson 33's or big Pass monoblocks.
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Just an FYI: Nelson Pass frequently replies to posts on these boards, but I think he's probably biased towards those posts on the Pass Labs forum :) |
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| traderbam |
tcpip wrote:| quote: | | I was getting the impression that a carefully constructed DIY amp, say a Randy Slone OptiMOS, could match the quality of a good $10K commercial amp. Am I wrong? |
I think you are. I haven't heard any Slone designs. I have seen the schematics of a few and heard comments about his book 2nd hand. IMO the info I have does not bode well for an audiophile result. If anyone has got a bona-fide review or direct comparison with any commercial products I would really like to know. Usually this key data is missing!
| quote: | | And... here's the part that I find really interesting: if I'm wrong, then what's the difference between something carefully designed by a Doug Self or a Randy Slone with decades of experience, and the really famous commercial brands like the Mark Levinsons or Krells or whatever? |
Because they don't really want to or aren't able to.
| quote: | | I'm seriously really curious to know... how do the more sophisticated DIY Class B power amps compare with the more expensive, high-end, well-regarded commercial products? And if there is a difference, why is it there? |
It isn't a matter of class. The reason the differences are there are superior engineering by the high-end companies compared to most DIY'ers. Superior engineering comes from a better evaluation process, better understanding of components, sheer cleverness and time and money to support them.
How does a DIY'er beat Ferrari? |
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| johnnyx |
| quote: | Originally posted by traderbam
tcpip wrote: The reason the differences are there are superior engineering by the high-end companies compared to most DIY'ers.
How does a DIY'er beat Ferrari? |
So it's the CNC machine tools they use then? |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by traderbam
How does a DIY'er beat Ferrari? |
I think it is quite possible and probably to modify a vehicle to beat a Ferrari (or any other car you may wish) on certain parameters.
It is very hard to produce (modify or not) a vehicle that will better a ferrari in all parameters, like performance, comfort, luxury, reliability, cost, etc.
that pretty much holds true for diy electronics as well. |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by traderbam
How does a DIY'er beat Ferrari? |
Thanks for your interesting reply.
The Ferrari comparison is particularly significant. I thought that in the general case, the Ferrari analogy would hold, i.e. it would apply to most engineering disciplines. But for audio, specially for audio circuits built using analog components (i.e. where special fabrication of digital IC/FPGAs etc are not needed), an individual sitting at home and with a reasonable test bench of instruments would be able to do, over a couple of decades, what a very good team in a company can do. This is not possible in areas like building aeroplanes or cars, because the resources needed to design and test out a car prototype are way beyond the means of an individual.
In fact, Randy Slone, in his book, says precisely this while defending the reasons why a music lover and electronics hobbyist can justify time and effort spent in analog audio electronics. He says that a good amateur can actually get results better than most high-end commercial establishments, if he puts in enough time and effort. Are you saying that there are things done by the Krells and Mark Levinsons which are just not doable by such an individual for experimentation and prototyping?
Even when it comes to speaker building, I feel resource availability may make a difference between an individual and a B&W. But for amps, I thought this difference was not so big... |
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| traderbam |
I agree that you son't need millions of $ to develop hifi. But you may need $10ks to buy the right test & measurement equipment.
| quote: | | He says that a good amateur can actually get results better than most high-end commercial establishments, if he puts in enough time and effort. |
There was something Douglas Adams wrote regarding monkeys and Shakespeare that rings a bell :clown:. Time and effort are not enough on their own.
| quote: | | Are you saying that there are things done by the Krells and Mark Levinsons which are just not doable by such an individual for experimentation and prototyping? |
I am not meaning to suggest the plight of the amateur is in vain. I think most of the commercial designers started off as amateurs, made a cunning discovery or two and then developed a business out of it. I think D'Agostino worked for a speaker maker before he grew Krell Industries out of his basement. I believe Julian Vereker was a racing car driver before he made the first Naim amp. And you too could start the next Mark Levinson empire.
What I'm saying is that making high-end hifi is extremely difficult. It is a very technical, complex problem. People don't get there by hit and miss experimentation. You have to have a very good understanding of what you are doing and a rigorousness of method to make the leading edge breakthroughs. In other words, you need to be really serious about it and sort of get out of the hobbist mindset. It is not so much the lack of a CNC machine that makes building a Ferrari engine so hard it is the knowledge of what shape the metal needs to be machined to and what metal is needed and details, details, details and testing, testing, testing.
Try this at home: Read Slone's or Self's websites and critically examine their design and evaluation process. Not their results or how pretty the symmetrical schematic looks but just their process. How rigorous is it? How good is the process at improving the sound quality of their designs? When you read the construction info about one of these designs just how specific is it about parts and how to select them - how far does the specification go beyond mfrs part numbers? Is every part and it's value and method of selection justified?
Of course the route to perfection requires a different approach to that which most amateurs wish to follow. Amateur audio is great fun regardless of how fanatical one is or how good the results are and I am in no way suggesting this should be any different. I'm just addressing the original question which is about how good DIY kits are and my opinion and experience is that I don't know of any that are in the Ferrari league (I'm talking solid state rather than valves of which I have minimal experience). And I would be delighted to hear of experience to the contrary. |
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| analog_sa |
| quote: | | How good is the process at improving the sound quality of their designs? |
They probably see no justification in improving above their perceived listening threshold.
Can a truly great amp be developed entirely by smart reasoning and solid theory? I have no doubt that practically all the well regarded audio manufacturers spend serious time listening at each stage of development. How many PCB layout prototypes it takes before it all gells? How many permutations of passives before the 'house' sound is achieved? |
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| Upupa Epops |
| It is only about money and time. Most of DIYers stop " research ", if do one machine, which work little bit correctly. Practicaly nobody do not build three different machines for comparision, which way is the best. Three machines = three times more money and time and when is all ready, two goes to the asham, 'cos third is the best. Yes, DIYer can to do " State of art ", but mostly is it coincidence. Top class product is many years of honest and hard work, not any " happy conjuring ". |
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| AKSA |
Interesting thread. The answer is detail, detail, detail, just as Traderbam suggests.
On reflection, eight factors stand out:
1. Deep knowledge of the history of audio amplifier development.
2. The patience to undertake sonic 'sleuthing'.
3. Awareness that psychoacoustic perception does not always correlate with distortion, slew rate, FR measurements, et al.
4. Awareness that layout has an effect on sonics.
5. Awareness of the sonic signature of components.
6. An understanding an tolerance of the power of iteration, and repeated AB testing under realistic listening situations.
7. Lots of money, and
8. Truckloads of passion.
I won't add topology, as this is obvious.
These six factors prescribe a huge investment in time, effort, money and passion. That's really all it takes.
Cheers,
Hugh |
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| andy_c |
| quote: | Originally posted by tcpip
(...)what's the difference between something carefully designed by a Doug Self or a Randy Slone with decades of experience, and the really famous commercial brands like the Mark Levinsons or Krells or whatever?(...) |
Umm, marketing maybe? If you want to make your own clothes that are as good as the emperor's new clothes, you'll need lots of gold thread. By the way, I'm selling gold thread at my web site here: :) http://www.deoxy.org/emperors.htm |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by traderbam
I agree that you son't need millions of $ to develop hifi. But you may need $10ks to buy the right test & measurement equipment. |
This a smaller sum that what many Americans spend on their cars, even if they don't have much emotional involvement with them. Therefore this can't be "big money" in many countries.
| quote: | | There was something Douglas Adams wrote regarding monkeys and Shakespeare that rings a bell :clown:. Time and effort are not enough on their own. |
Please don't trivialise the discussion.
| quote: | | I am not meaning to suggest the plight of the amateur is in vain. I think most of the commercial designers started off as amateurs... |
Maybe I have been careless in my choice of words. I didn't mean "amateurs", strictly speaking. I meant individuals who were working outside the support structure of large companies, on their own, maybe in their homes. Whether they profit financially from their work (amateur versus professional) is not important.
| quote: | | What I'm saying is that making high-end hifi is extremely difficult. It is a very technical, complex problem. People don't get there by hit and miss experimentation. |
I am an engineer, FWIW. I have two engineering degrees from one of the best engineering institutes in the world. Again, FWIW. :D
When I read the writings of Randy Slone or Doug Self, I don't get the impression that they are doing hit and miss experimentation. I may not know much about audio amp design, but I have a lot of confidence in my ability to recognize systematic, scientific investigation and experimentation when I see it. What I've seen these people do may be very different from the "opamp-rolling" casual approach of many diyers on this forum, but then I was not referring to designs created by such diyers. I was referring to people like Randy Slone or Doug Self.
Today, Nelson Pass and Hugh Dean are acclaimed amp designers. Some years ago, they were individual enthusiasts. Changing the label we attach to them does not change their basic approach or ability or passion. In that case, maybe we can take this discussion forward by dropping all references to "amateur" and moving to amps designed by these individuals. Do you feel that the best amps designed by these individuals will necessarily be inferior to the Mark Levinsons and Krells?
Let's avoid confusion a priori, by clarifying that AKSA amps are sold as kits, and therefore Hugh may have an interest in choosing simplicity of construction over no-holds-barred sound quality. But my question is not about any amp he has designed, but rather about what he --- or someone like him --- can design. With a garage full of $10K of equipment, and all his knowledge and experience and passion and patience, can someone in his position beat the big brand amps if he didn't have kit builder constraints?
Hope I've made my question clear.
| quote: | | Try this at home: Read Slone's or Self's websites and critically examine their design and evaluation process. Not their results or how pretty the symmetrical schematic looks but just their process. How rigorous is it? |
You can do better by reading their books, instead of their Websites. Slone's Website contains very little. Try reading their books at home. What do you feel about their reasoning ability? To accuse these two sincere engineers and researchers of hit and miss experimentation is gross injustice to them, and probably more a comment of those who assess them than a comment on them. |
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| Terry Demol |
| quote: | Originally posted by tcpip
This a smaller sum that what many Americans spend on their cars, even if they don't have much emotional involvement with them. Therefore this can't be "big money" in many countries.
Please don't trivialise the discussion.
Maybe I have been careless in my choice of words. I didn't mean "amateurs", strictly speaking. I meant individuals who were working outside the support structure of large companies, on their own, maybe in their homes. Whether they profit financially from their work (amateur versus professional) is not important.
I am an engineer, FWIW. I have two engineering degrees from one of the best engineering institutes in the world. Again, FWIW. :D
When I read the writings of Randy Slone or Doug Self, I don't get the impression that they are doing hit and miss experimentation. I may not know much about audio amp design, but I have a lot of confidence in my ability to recognize systematic, scientific investigation and experimentation when I see it. What I've seen these people do may be very different from the "opamp-rolling" casual approach of many diyers on this forum, but then I was not referring to designs created by such diyers. I was referring to people like Randy Slone or Doug Self.
Today, Nelson Pass and Hugh Dean are acclaimed amp designers. Some years ago, they were individual enthusiasts. Changing the label we attach to them does not change their basic approach or ability or passion. In that case, maybe we can take this discussion forward by dropping all references to "amateur" and moving to amps designed by these individuals. Do you feel that the best amps designed by these individuals will necessarily be inferior to the Mark Levinsons and Krells?
|
I think you missed a simple most important
factor that differentiates Self from Pass & Dean.
Self doesn't do careful listening tests as part of his
development methodology, they do.
Cheers,
Terry |
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| Damon Hill |
| quote: | Originally posted by LRRockBox
I'm not exactly a first timer. To building an amp, yes, However, I do have a masters in electronics, and a VERY good soldering iron :D
Power : yes please. I mesioned a threesome by the big US boys. I DO like the sound of 'em. Given the money, I'd seriously look into the X600 or the FPB's.
[/B] |
Excellent.
I'd been giving thought to a high power amplifier myself. The popular approach to this has been with lots of MOSFETs or bipolar transistors in parallel, and in the past with 'totem pole' series-parallel configurations.
You'll find kits for Optimos amplifiers up to 400 watts at http://www.sealelectronics/com; that's Randy Sloan's
site. I recommend his books, too; you may not want
to use his exact designs, but the general reading and construction tips are valuable. And I equally recommend
Doug Self's book; more details here:
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/ampins.htm
I was thinking of using Marshall Leach's basic design
with four or five pairs of MJ21193/94s on a forced convection
heatsink that is conveniently prewired for that many
emitter followers including the emitter resistors. I'd
have to make some other parts changes, but I like his
design philosophy. You'll find his Low-TIM amp here:
http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/lowtim/
He also has a higher-power amplifier using the 'totem-
pole' concept here:
http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/superamp/
If you want even more power, be prepared to spend
more time researching. You could start here:
http://www.aussieamplifiers.com/
At this point, I recommend reading these sources and
listening to the considerable range of opinions here
before rushing into construction. There are certainly
other sources for project designs, but I've named
several that I feel comfortable recommending.
My projects usually stall for lack of money and the
skills and tools needed to physically construct reasonably
attractive, finished chassis. I scrounge parts as I can,
and build on existing chassis for upgrades.
Whether or not you'll end up with an amplifier that's
the equal of a Krell or other big-name lable is another
thing altogether. I don't know if anyone's seriously
compared Sloan's or Leach's designs to the best
commercial products available, but I think you will get
very good results. Hopefully our combined efforts in
DIY-land could lead to improvements in these projects
that would place them a notch closer to the best
available at any price. |
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| mikeks |
After a great deal of research, i have no choice but to accept that the simple generic gain-stage topology as used by Self, AKSA....Rod Elliot...etc...simply cannot be improved upon by so-called 'symmetric'...quasi-symmetric designs, 'current' feedback...etc....period.....:(
rather disappointing....as i had hoped that the visually appealing 'new-age' designs would come up trumps.....
:sigh: |
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| Dave S |
It's been done:
http://www.beardmorebros.co.uk/
Check out "John's new project" for a Morris Minor that beat all the Ferrari's on it's first race outing!!!
Back to hifi: Maybe Linn is not in the same league as Krell, Levinson etc, but I am much happier with my home made hifi system than I was with an expensive Linn active system.
I have seen the schematic for a KSA100 posted on this forum some time in the past - it's not rocket science. However I suspect that getting a clone to sound the same (if that's what you want!) would be very difficult - because as most on this site know, everythng makes a difference to the sound (unless you're Doug Self). |
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| Damon Hill |
The British are VERY into DIY; this has got to be
the ultimate:
http://www.a1steam.com/
I'm challenged enough just coming up with chassis
and heatsink designs. |
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| AKSA |
Mikeks,
With sad resignation, for I too think as you do, I have come to the very same conclusion.
I've tried cascodes, Lender configurations, Rush cascodes, CFP VASs and diff pairs, complementary VASs, multiple CCS creations including current mirrors and folded cascodes, I've tried the lot and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars chasing the holy silicon grail.
The outcome was no different to any other technology; all roads lead to the simple, well engineered approach which happens to be the most widely used; the single-ended VAS transistor. This is, in fact, technological convergence; this approach is so widely used because it gives the best results, rather like liquid-cooled, front engine, rear drive on automobiles.
Cheers,
Hugh |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by tcpip
But my question is not about any amp he has designed, but rather about what he --- or someone like him --- can design. With a garage full of $10K of equipment, and all his knowledge and experience and passion and patience, can someone in his position beat the big brand amps if he didn't have kit builder constraints? |
the answer is absolutely yes. and even if you replace the name AKSA for anybody, here or not, the answer is still yes: anyone can design an amp that better any amp from a big name manufacturer, including krell, pass or hugh. there is no doubt about that.
however, there are two problems with that assertion:
1) you are talking about a hypothetical event, a possibility. I can win a lottory, I can be another Bill Gates, I can design a car that bests a Ferrari. I can ....... But I am not. and Hugh isn't designing an amp without contraints. so what real good does it serve to discuss something that isn't true?
2) we don't listen to designs. We listen to a physical, tangible amp. and there is a lot of "art and science" in turning a design into an actual thing, either on a one-off basis or in mass / quantity production. That is where a manufacturer has a hugh advantage over us.
| quote: | Originally posted by mikeks
After a great deal of research, i have no choice but to accept that the simple generic gain-stage topology as used by Self, AKSA....Rod Elliot...etc...simply cannot be improved upon by so-called 'symmetric'...quasi-symmetric designs, 'current' feedback...etc....period.....:(
rather disappointing....as i had hoped that the visually appealing 'new-age' designs would come up trumps.....
:sigh: |
I would agree with that. I found out also that usually the simplest linn amp sounds the best, to my ears. and I cannot detect sonic improvements that supposedly exists in those more complicated designs. so for me the simpler designs excel. |
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| destroyer X |
I strongly believe your ideas, for me, no doubts, Hugh Dean, this is the man, and AKSA may be the amplifier.
I am waiting, i will see and hear them... i will tell you a lot.
If bad i will open my damn mouth loud and clear before banishment!
300 hundred box is not a joke for me!
Carlos |
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| JonMarsh |
| quote: | | This is, in fact, technological convergence; this approach is so widely used because it gives the best results, rather like liquid-cooled, front engine, rear drive on automobiles. |
So, then what are the NSX and Porshe lovers to do in a world like this? ;)
I suspect they'll still drive what they like...
~Jon |
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| grataku |
| quote: | Originally posted by AKSA
I've (tried the lot and) spent hundreds of thousands of dollars chasing the holy silicon grail.
Hugh |
'Hundreds' of thousands of dollars_
Aussie dollars or real dollars?
This is the kind of stuff that drives me nuts!
I like you and admire your small success story in the audio business. Considering the crap I see floating around out there. I think you sell a great little amp kit that plays good music at a very honest price.
I had a very long post written about this but I just watched the last lord of the ring movie so in the spirit of diy fellowship I just erased everything and decided to drop it.
Please don't let me catch you again telling these baa_aa_ls, ok? ;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
The ultimate is always changing, both in commercial offerings, and in whatever a diy-er can put together. I have no doubts that an individual, when motivated enough, can build better stuff than established high-end manufacturer, if not only for the fact that when building one off unit, certain approaches can be still justfiable, which might not be the case in a commercial production run, where overall costs are much bigger issue.
I still don't think that whatever Madrigal builds, can be regarded as a holy grail of amplification. While their designs are very good from technical POV, they can be much further improved when certain mods are performed. I'm still not sure why they don't do that in house, in a first place.
I'm currently modifying ML38S preamp, so I'm talking from personal experience. |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by JonMarsh
So, then what are the NSX and Porshe lovers to do in a world like this? ;)
I suspect they'll still drive what they like...
~Jon |
that might be a different question: more like Ferrari vs. Acura / Honda vs. Porsche. (or a Pass vs. krell vs. mcintosh comparison). there is no DIY element here.
the better analogy here is Ferrari vs. a modified Civic vs. a modified 427 kit, etc. The DIY is clearly present in the last two cases.
You can clearly get a Civic to a Ferrari level in terms of performance. but it would be hard to persuade any Ferrari owners to give up their vehicles for that Civic, :)
Again, if you just care about sonic performance, you can clearly DIY an amp that's better than a Pass or krell or whatever you want. But you will miss out on others. |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by Terry Demol
I think you missed a simple most important
factor that differentiates Self from Pass & Dean.
Self doesn't do careful listening tests as part of his
development methodology, they do. |
I was thinking about this myself. :)
This difference, in my opinion, may differentiate the degree of success an individual designer has. This is a difference in the set of approaches a designer attempts. Some designers will try to build Class A and compare with Class B --- others may not even attempt Class A, saying that modern Class B amps distort too little already. This way, the second class of designers may miss out something interesting that Class A can provide.
Some designers may try changing components or layouts specifically for A-to-B comparisons, while others may say that layouts are critical only in the RF range, hence there's no need to try this approach. And the second class of designers may miss out some gems which are layout-dependent.
I put your example of listening versus non-listening in the same category. There are some things you have try out before you discard them. Listening for sonic differences versus gauging quality purely based on measurements is one of those things to try. Some designers try them, others don't.
But basically, this means that there's nothing stopping a good, competent and committed individual who does try out all these things from beating the Krells and MLs? |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
the answer is absolutely yes. and even if you replace the name AKSA for anybody, here or not, the answer is still yes: anyone can design an amp that better any amp from a big name manufacturer, including krell, pass or hugh. there is no doubt about that. |
Hi, Millwood. :)
| quote: | | 1) you are talking about a hypothetical event, a possibility. I can win a lottory, I can be another Bill Gates, I can design a car that bests a Ferrari. I can ....... But I am not. and Hugh isn't designing an amp without contraints. so what real good does it serve to discuss something that isn't true? |
I think this is a good point. But I still feel the question is very relevant, given today's degree of cooperation and synergy possible with the Internet and email. Today, amateur DIYers work as a worldwide team and build on each other's work to a degree not imaginable twenty years ago. Just see the story of GNU and other free software.
Given this, it becomes increasingly likely that if something is hypothetically possible by an individual, there is a high statistical likelihood that some one individual somewhere will be able to do it. And if just one person does it, in the non-profit amateur diy world, the whole community's level goes up practically instantly. I know, only one in a million diy electronics hobbyists have their own $10K workbench full of instruments. But even in spite of this, we're dealing with very large numbers of people in the worldwide diy audio community, and it needs just one or two people to push the bar up, for the whole community to profit.
| quote: | | 2) we don't listen to designs. We listen to a physical, tangible amp. and there is a lot of "art and science" in turning a design into an actual thing, either on a one-off basis or in mass / quantity production. That is where a manufacturer has a hugh advantage over us. |
Are there manufacturing techniques which are impossible (or very difficult) for the audio amateur which contribute significantly to sound quality? Only if this is true will there be an edge with factory-produced systems. Can you give some specific examples?
On the other side of the divide I have discovered incredible levels of sophistication in shielding and chassis construction (the quality and type used by defence equipment to shield RF and radar equipment in ships and subs) available to the rich DIYer in Bombay. The workshops are there, the knowledge is there, the test equipment is there. Whether you can afford the one-off charges is a matter of money. It will certainly cost someone much less than $10K to build one or two amp chassis with berillium-copper shorting strips and all sorts of other very high-tech stuff. This is just one example of what is possible for the audio amateur. |
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| tcpip |
Hi Hugh. :D
| quote: | Originally posted by AKSA
Interesting thread. The answer is detail, detail, detail, just as Traderbam suggests. |
Can these issues of detail be done by an individual sitting at home with the right equipment (budget limit: USD 10K, by concensus :D )
| quote: | | On reflection, eight factors stand out: |
None of these seem unachievable in an individual. Given my experience with psychology of technical professionals and issues of workplace culture, they are more likely in an individual with a test lab in a garage, than in a large company with "suits" dictating what needs to be sold next. :) The only item I have doubts about is item 7: lots of money. How much is "lots"?
| quote: | | These six factors prescribe a huge investment in time, effort, money and passion. That's really all it takes. |
Once we get the "how much is lots of money" question out of the way, I guess we can agree that the right individual can do it in a non-profit setting, working by himself?
In that case, I'd tend to believe, purely as a statistically likely outcome, that the best amp designs created by individual diyers are already as good as the best commercial amp designs. I was trying to repond to Millwood about this a few minutes back. Of course, there will be the possibility of variables introduced during construction. When you buy a ready-made product, all these variables are nailed down. But my assertion will be that the best schematics are already as good as those in the commercial top-end. The best PCB layouts probably are already as good as the best in the commercial world.
Are you getting my drift? What do you think? |
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| analog_sa |
| quote: | | How much is "lots"? |
I get the impression that about $100,000 is more or less what it takes to fully develop a single high end product. This is assuming you already have the testing equipment and design skills and also a nice set of competitive products against which you'll do the listening tests. I personally see little point in excessively sophisticated testing rigs and would rather use the budget on prototyping. |
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| LRRockBox |
Now we've sort of discovered what may be possible geven the right circumstances, how about what's already been achieved ? I.E., sticking to the given of the big US moguls, what designs are already available thet could be used as a starting point, while still allowing me to listen to some music if I feel so inclined ?
I've gotten hold of the Bryston SST schematic, and I'll have some of the designers here input it into Ultiboard to see what PCB design it comes up with !
Peter R. |
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| AKSA |
I'll keep this light.
'hundreds of thousands'. OK, a grand comment, but actually, true. I'll ignore the comment about little dollars or Oz dollars; after all, the US dollar has dropped precipitously in the last 18 months against the Euro. I've put about 200K into amp design; not just the AKSA, but also the Lifeforce, the Glass Harmony, and the GK1. These four designs run the gamut of SS and tube designs; all are very different, and all required huge investment in time and effort. If you include my time, at $40 an hour (that's little dollars, BTW) the figure would probably run to $500K, hence the free use of the plural. None of this is apparent from my workshop, which has an old Tek 100MHz CRO, but rather it is prototyping, parts, metal work; my pcb bill would make a grown man blanch.
My little success story is not even commercial yet and I still do not draw a salary, though my wife gets housekeeping from the repayment of seed capital the company owes me. I work long hours and for a decade have deprived my family, perhaps selfishly, for my own hifi obsessions. This is the cost and relationships have suffered. It is a choice I've willingly made however because I think it is important and I'm on a mission. I don't have vices, except chocolate, and I own my home, so it probably doesn't matter too much that my family lives on very little, the children won exam entry to the best school in Melbourne, so in that sense they've not been deprived. I am hoping things might improve soon so Sri and I can take a holiday with friends in NZ and the Gold Coast. We'll see.
Grataku, while I am touched that you 'like me' as you fetchingly put it, you can imagine, for someone like me who for years has been regarded as an eccentric fool, it really isn't foremost in my mind how you regard me. I served in the military for twenty years, and was told what to do by a wide diversity of people, some of them intelligent, as I rose through the ranks. So I've seen all the personality types, and for my money, while I remain polite to everybody, I know now who's up who and who's paying.....
Ferrari, or NSX?
Well, Jon, I think there is an answer to this, and it lies with the cult following of such products as the Quad ESL, the Magneplanar, the Williamson, the various SETs we've all admired from time to time, and countless other products. Generally I believe this reflects the dissonant prejudices of consumers as they gravitate to something which floats their boat not because of the fine balance of compromise, but rather despite the glaring deficiencies of design.
Thus there is a place under the sun for just about anything, regardless of good or bad design. It all comes back to marketing, perception, and the careful, commercial identification of the various psycho-fiscal buttons we all have, but which often even we do not realize are being pushed, even as we speak........
Cheers,
Hugh |
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| grataku |
| quote: | Originally posted by AKSA
I'll keep this light.
Grataku, while I am touched that you 'like me' as you fetchingly put it, you can imagine, for someone like me who for years has been regarded as an eccentric fool, it really isn't foremost in my mind how you regard me. I served in the military for twenty years, and was told what to do by a wide diversity of people, some of them intelligent, as I rose through the ranks. So I've seen all the personality types, and for my money, while I remain polite to everybody, I know now who's up who and who's paying.....
Hugh |
I said what I meant as usual, and I was not just trying to be polite Hugh, so I guess I inadvertedly wasted good sugar on a donkey. ;)
I was in the military too not for as long as you have been so I know a thing or two about personalities and I very easily smell BS.
I found your original post rather pretentious and condescending, not to mention utterly untrue.
If in your 100's of thousands of dollars you are counting what you _could_ have made by having a real job instead of spending nights and weekend putzting around with a soldering iron in your garage (like we all do around here by the way) then my stereo may well be worth millions.
I think you should fire your accountant. |
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| K-amps |
| quote: | Originally posted by grataku
If in your 100's of thousands of dollars you are counting what you _could_ have made by having a real job instead of spending nights and weekend putzting around with a soldering iron in your garage (like we all do around here by the way) then my stereo may well be worth millions.
I think you should fire your accountant. |
Valuation is determined primarily by the buyer and only set by the seller...
As a parent I relish in the fact that my 2 year old is the cutest kid on the block.... the truth, unfortunately does not support my assessment of it.
Guys the truth is somewhere in the middle....
;) |
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| AKSA |
Grataku,
I attempted to send you an email; but I find you won't accept them. Pity. Why is that? And may I address you by name?
The figure I came up with was actual dollars spent. I worked as an IT consultant two days each week, and poured the money into amp research, living on Military Superannuation. I was amazed at the numbers myself over a couple of years, but then decided to keep at it.
I am constantly amazed at the cost of any form of research. You always underestimate it, and the reality at tax time comes as a shock.
You may be right about my accountant. This is serious money, and I'm not happy about it either. However, if you think this is BS you should have your nose checked!
Cheers,
Hugh |
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| Christer |
One must distinguish between those who are in it for the money
and those who are passionate about their "mission". As I
understand it, Hugh belongs to the latter group and considering
how hard it usually is to make living under such circumstances
I appalud and admire his decision. Personally I would like to
try being a professional painter, but I refuse to paint what sells
if I don't believe in what I do. In that case I rather make my
living from something else and paint what I want in my spare
time. I think one might view people like Hugh as a kind of
artists in their profession. |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by traderbam
OK, you've decided to bite the hand that offers you fine cuisine. So dine alone |
Biting hands, as you put it, was not my intention. Hands inserted in dangerous places carelessly tend to get bitten, even if neither of us is here to bite hands. I'm sorry if from my entire post, the only line that registered with you is the last phrase you quoted. It was the rest of the post which was relevant, in my opinion. :) |
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| fab |
Sorry to interrupt but seing all previous interesting comments I have some too:
1) I have less than $1000 of equipment (20 MHz oscilloscope, power supply, homemade THD meter, multimeters, 4 ohms power resistors, electronics parts). For a diyer, what more do you need and what are the parameters that make a expensive hi-fi commercial products to sound better than a diy product that I can not measure with my "low cost" test equipment?
2) To get the theoritical same result, a diy project does not require the same investment at all than a commercial product for obvious reasons (first "manpower" costs more than parts today and diyers do not count time as money, a commercial product must be repeatable, "good looking", etc).
3) tcpip has made a very pertinent comments about the power of internet in regards to communicate information all over the wordl and have everybody to get a "higher" level of knowledge of audio. In fact, I have learned more about amp design from seeing other designs than what I have learned back in school.
4) I have great respect for those who design commercial products because only a few percentage of peoples can design and build their own amp (and take the time to do so). However, I can not imagine that anybody can pretend that someone else in the world can not do better than himself.
5) What is better sound? Even on this forum, nobody agrees on that . Is it too detailed that you can hear the differences between the sources and recordings with defects or is it when it is smooth or else?
6) If there is no consensus on sound quality than someone can simply choose a design that sounds "good" to his ears. It is like wine: if you can not see the difference between a $200 and a $20 wine bottle why would you buy the $200 (because other peoples like it more than the $20?)?
And Peter R., if you like the Bryston then go for it!
Fab |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by fab
Sorry to interrupt but seing all previous interesting comments I have some too:
1) I have less than $1000 of equipment (20 MHz oscilloscope, power supply, homemade THD meter, multimeters, 4 ohms power resistors, electronics parts). |
Great list. How did you make a home-made THD meter? In fact, how does one make a super-low-distortion sine wave generator with a wide freq range? I'd be keen to know any pointers or details you can give me.
| quote: | 5) What is better sound? Even on this forum, nobody agrees on that . Is it too detailed that you can hear the differences between the sources and recordings with defects or is it when it is smooth or else?
6) If there is no consensus on sound quality than someone can simply choose a design that sounds "good" to his ears. It is like wine: if you can not see the difference between a $200 and a $20 wine bottle why would you buy the $200 (because other peoples like it more than the $20?)? |
You're so spot-on... In fact, when this discussion started, I was expected people to say things like "Why compare with Krells and Mark Levinsons? None of the commercial designs can come anywhere near an Aleph-X/Hiraga/JLH96/whatever...." Instead, I began to see quite the opposite type of comments, where people began saying that no diy design can hope to match the top-end commercial amps. I'm still to come to terms with this. :D |
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| K-amps |
| quote: | Originally posted by tcpip
None of the commercial designs can come anywhere near an Aleph-X/Hiraga/JLH96/whatever...." |
TCPIP, Disagree with you on this, have you compared various Krells to the Aleph-X's/ Hiraga's/ JLH's personally?
Maybe the latter are better than the former on some parameters but not sure if I'd make a statement as, "None of the commercial designs can come anywhere near an ......."
This is an interesting thread.
;) |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by LRRockBox
I'm not exactly a first timer. To building an amp, yes, However, I do have a masters in electronics, and a VERY goo soldering iron :D |
I see that you also are a project engineer.:) Good! :nod:
My advise to you is:
Form a team of max 3-5 persons which can contribute. Pick up ideas from others but you deside otherwise it ends up with... the posts above... nothing.
Look at tangent, morsel, ppl and KurtW and their Meta, Mint, and PPA projects. (headphone amps)
http://elvencraft.com/ppa/ |
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| Paradise_Ice |
traderbam, only represents himself and not a nation! i promise!
I had a FPB 300 from Krell, i had it on for 3 years solid never turning it off! it was a good amp, but honest for the money, its not the best. not even close. thats subjective but so what.
Home Made DIY amps can be better, pure and simple.
They may not look as Space age but an amplifier is all about function! right? who cares what it looks like! johnnyx got it, the CNC machines,LOL, dont forget the anodised case!
My wife made me an amplifier that is just better in ever way, no you cant have her!
tcpip i quote traderbam,
How does a DIY'er beat Ferrari? easy, with passion! my brother has a Nissan skyline with twice the engine output of a Ferrari, It will out handle out drag any production car, it took years to make, and a lot of tweaking,
The big names are to cocky and it takes a rookie to cut them down ever now and then! Not all DIYers are equal, i know some are better than the fat cat designers, so with that, Go on Your self Big Man!!! ,LOL:devilr: |
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| pro |
Your brother will be able also to have the faster car of the world, but he does not have a Ferrari. A Swatch clock costs 1/1000 of a Rolex and is also preciser, but it is not a Rolex. You will be able to construct also the best sounding amplifier of the world, but it will be never a ML or a KRELL or a JR.
I think that when they are bought of the objects makes also for one prestige issue. It is clearly that diyer you begin to make it or for passion or why you do not have moneies in order to buy one good enough sounding electronic, then, like nearly all the hobby, we become of the fanatics us and then we feel the difference between a regolator of tension and an other, like saying that we lighten our bicycle of 20 grams and then we say that in climb goes better, when then that morning we have eaten 100 grams of fruit in more of the usual. I think that to the end the things we make why them appeals to us to make them, but I do not understand why we must confront the things that we make, with those that other people makes , than they make well and that they do from many years.
Ciao. |
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| K-amps |
| quote: | Originally posted by Paradise_Ice
traderbam, only represents himself and not a nation! i promise!
I had a FPB 300 from Krell, i had it on for 3 years solid never turning it off! it was a good amp, but honest for the money, its not the best. not even close. thats subjective but so what.
Home Made DIY amps can be better, pure and simple.
They may not look as Space age but an amplifier is all about function! right? who cares what it looks like! johnnyx got it, the CNC machines,LOL, dont forget the anodised case!
My wife made me an amplifier that is just better in ever way, no you cant have her!
tcpip i quote traderbam,
How does a DIY'er beat Ferrari? easy, with passion! my brother has a Nissan skyline with twice the engine output of a Ferrari, It will out handle out drag any production car, it took years to make, and a lot of tweaking,
The big names are to cocky and it takes a rookie to cut them down ever now and then! Not all DIYers are equal, i know some are better than the fat cat designers, so with that, Go on Your self Big Man!!! ,LOL:devilr: |
Agree with some of your points, and yes you make a very valid point about my generalizing, My apologies to all grown-up Brits.
;) |
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| kilowattski |
LRRockBox,
The answer to your question is somewhat subjective. Because you mentioned a Pass Labs X amplifier, see if you can get a hold of some Aleph X blank PCB's and build some high power Aleph X monoblocks. There is a lot of documentation and help in the Pass Labs forum. Lots of guys there have built Aleph X's and maybe you could even help improve on the design. Best of luck picking an amplifier. |
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| AKSA |
K-amps has shown contrition and the thread goes on.
I must say that a brand is very significant. We can thank NP for raising a DIY amp to cult status, and removing any semblance of apology for what it is in the marketplace. A Pass AlephX stands proudly beside a Krell, and this paves the way for the talented DIYer to make something which ranks alongside any of the worlds best.
This is DIY; not consumer hifi, or 'social cachet' high end. We are not so susceptible to the snobbery of owning a high end amp; we are smugly aware that the AlephX probably sounds better.
I suspect we shouldn't even be thinking of Ferrari's or Rolexes. These things are marketing triumphs, certainly, but this does not mean they are best of breed.
Cheers,
Hugh |
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| dkemppai |
It's rather interesting that the consensus of many is that it is near impossible to beat a 'big name' company, in terms of sound quality. More than interesting, I find it insulting that people assume that what can be done by an 'amateur' will be inferior to what can be done by a 'professional'.
It's not the quality of the tools, or the quality of the lab. It's the quality of the engineer.
LRRockbox,
On a lighter note, I don't think there is a "best amp" There never will be. There can't be. Sound quality is subjective.
The advantage of DIY, is that you can explore amplifier topologies, and parts selections. If offers you the ability to choose and build an amplifier talored to your own taste. You can test the things you couldn't afford, or even find. My advice is try to build a few, and see what you like. Once you find something that you like, improve on it.
I've been designing the 'perfect' amplifier for over a decade. In all that time, I've never listened to a perfect design. However, I do know what I like and know how to build it to my taste. And to me, that's what counts.
-Dan |
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| joan2 |
| quote: | I've been designing the 'perfect' amplifier for over a decade. In all that time, I've never listened to a perfect design. However, I do know what I like and know how to build it to my taste. And to me, that's what counts.
|
indeed, this is the way to go!!! me too is looking forward to building my dream giant leach amp that can do 1000watt at 2ohms ..it has taken me over ten years now hampered by lack of funds, but i have quite a stash of parts and maybe in three years i can do it!!! |
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| K-amps |
| quote: | Originally posted by dkemppai
On a lighter note, I don't think there is a "best amp" There never will be. There can't be. Sound quality is subjective.
-Dan |
Roger that Dan,
The physical being of the amplifier is mechanical in nature like a car, Therein, quality construction (among other things) matters,
The sonic signature of the amp however is the art... Art is subjective hence we will be debating this ad infinium.
On that note, there are People like Nelson and Dan D'agostino (to name but a few) who have successfully married the art AND science of this baby we all love, the power-Amp!
Can you paint better than Picasso... sure you can, will you be as successful? Probably not.
;)
K- |
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| fab |
| quote: | Originally posted by tcpip
Great list. How did you make a home-made THD meter? In fact, how does one make a super-low-distortion sine wave generator with a wide freq range? I'd be keen to know any pointers or details you can give me.
D |
My home-made THD meter was a design project of mine at school. The distortion resolution of the wave generator and THD meter is not super low, but is 0.005% at 1KHz. It is not built to have the frequency adjusted, but only 2 frequencies: 100 Hz and 1K Hz. For me, I find it sufficient. The THD meter can use 10KHz but my actual generator can not. I may try to have my generator re-designed in the future. I know I have seen very performant THD meter on the internet but I can not remember where.
Fab |
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| andy_c |
Interesting that Krell keeps coming up as an example of "best". I've had a Krell KSA-100 and PAM-5 since 1984. The power amp arrived with a nasty case of buzzing relays. Around that time, I read a review of Apogee speakers in HFN & RR in which they said that they originally tried them with a Krell amp, but had to return the amp because of buzzing relays. I guess it was a chronic problem with them in those days and they just shipped them anyway. You'd have to be deaf not to hear it. A couple of years later, the amp's power switch (really a breaker) went bad and they sent me a new one. One channel of the phono preamp in the PAM-5 went south too. So I'm not too impressed with them. To top it off, the schematic of this amp was posted in this forum, and I was amazed at how primitive it was. No emitter degeneration in the input diff amp (AC-wise) for example.
My view is that many of the high-end companies are in the business of selling a mystique, an image, just like manufacturers of clothing, expensive watches and so on. It's as if the amplifiers were designed by the audio equivalent of the Keebler elves, mystical creatures with near divine insight into the sonic behavior of audio equipment. Or so they would have you believe. I suspect that a guy like Scott Wurcer knows a lot more about low-distortion design than most high-end audio designers, but that's just my opinion. And figuring out what "sounds best" is highly subjective and depends on the individual anyway. |
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| macka |
Hugh,
I read with delight your posts and have the greatest respect for you and fond memories of the early days.
Do you remember the Glen Bladderly demonstration at the MAC Gen Meeting and then the infamous comment by Ron just after your demonstration at the Whitehorse town hall?
It takes all kinds in a village doesn't it.
However I can draw a few similarities between your journey and that of Nelson Pass. He is one of the more interesting people I met while travelling the USA and a gentleman like yourself.
I did hear some Pass Diy amps while I was there and tend to subscribe that subjectively amplifers are like wine, its a matter of taste, particularly when you start playing complementry speakers.
What is even more remarkable is that a simple system based on amplifer like the Zen and a basic 2 way diy speaker can beat the pants of mega dollar systems like I heard at the NY Stereophile Show when it comes down to listener enjoyment.
And thats a fact.
Your friend
Ian |
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| K-amps |
| quote: | Originally posted by andy_c
Interesting that Krell keeps coming up as an example of "best". I've had a Krell KSA-100 and PAM-5 since 1984. The power amp arrived with a nasty case of buzzing relays. Around that time, I read a review of Apogee speakers in HFN & RR in which they said that they originally tried them with a Krell amp, but had to return the amp because of buzzing relays. I guess it was a chronic problem with them in those days and they just shipped them anyway. You'd have to be deaf not to hear it. A couple of years later, the amp's power switch (really a breaker) went bad and they sent me a new one. One channel of the phono preamp in the PAM-5 went south too. So I'm not too impressed with them. To top it off, the schematic of this amp was posted in this forum, and I was amazed at how primitive it was. No emitter degeneration in the input diff amp (AC-wise) for example.
My view is that many of the high-end companies are in the business of selling a mystique, an image, just like manufacturers of clothing, expensive watches and so on. It's as if the amplifiers were designed by the audio equivalent of the Keebler elves, mystical creatures with near divine insight into the sonic behavior of audio equipment. Or so they would have you believe. I suspect that a guy like Scott Wurcer knows a lot more about low-distortion design than most high-end audio designers, but that's just my opinion. And figuring out what "sounds best" is highly subjective and depends on the individual anyway. |
Andy,
I have a KSA-250 and guess what, the relays buzz, lol. I also have a KSA-100 MK.II but that runs very quiet even with the fans running.
Krell has become somewhat of a reference point. I guess some things stick to mind, like the ability of Krells to drive the Scintillas and the ML's to Arc weld. ( not suggesting you use the amp for welding, but just takes things to a different level... clever marketing I guess.) Stereophile and others also help with the mystique aspect. There is still something about these amps that makes people compare them to others.
regards,
K- |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by andy_c
Interesting that Krell keeps coming up as an example of "best". I've had a Krell KSA-100 and PAM-5 since 1984. The power amp arrived with a nasty case of buzzing relays. |
Why did they buzz? Were they driven on unsmoothed DC? |
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| LRRockBox |
In my original quwestion indeed I have taken Krell and ML as 'reference' . To me, this does not imply they are 'the best'. They are merely that to which other designs are compared.
Others can be bigger, badder noisier, louder, whatever you like. The reference is just a measuring stick. Frequently, you have to measure something that is several times the length of the stick. As often, it will be shorter. Very seldom you will have to measure somethin equal to the sticks length. It doesn't make the stick useless. Merely a reference.
As I'm starting out in amp diy, it's jyst not on to build 10 designs and figure out where I can improve what depending on my listening mood of th day.
I have just selected a few designs who's sound I generally like, and now I will try and build something that is akin to this reference, and then dicide where I want to go from there. |
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| Upupa Epops |
| To Per - Anders : Probably relays for soft start, which are often with AC choke. Buzzing is made by free fit cover - help is easy - termoglue. |
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| K-amps |
| quote: | Originally posted by Upupa Epops
To Per - Anders : Probably relays for soft start, which are often with AC choke. Buzzing is made by free fit cover - help is easy - termoglue. |
Agree the cover is free fit and if I hold it down, the buzzing does decrease, nonetheless the relay is still vibrating. It may also be that Krell decided to retrofit larger relays to a board pre-designed for a different relay... |
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| peranders |
| Some AC relays buzz when they have a bit low voltage and some buzz even though they have enough voltage.... |
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| Upupa Epops |
| To Per - Anders : Relays on our soft starts are quite silent, isn't thrue ;) . |
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| andy_c |
| quote: | Originally posted by peranders
Why did they buzz? Were they driven on unsmoothed DC? |
I'm not sure, as I haven't seen a schematic of the soft-start circuit - only the amplifier stages. They've buzzed in more than one place I was living, and the line voltage checked okay in both places. Internal construction of these amps seems to be of high quality, but details like this make me seriously doubt the "guru" status of Krell. I have to wonder about their quality control as well, since they allowed units with such problems to ship in the first place. |
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| dkemppai |
| quote: | Originally posted by K-amps
The physical being of the amplifier is mechanical in nature like a car, Therein, quality construction (among other things) matters,
The sonic signature of the amp however is the art... Art is subjective hence we will be debating this ad infinium.
On that note, there are People like Nelson and Dan D'agostino (to name but a few) who have successfully married the art AND science of this baby we all love, the power-Amp!
Can you paint better than Picasso... sure you can, will you be as successful? Probably not.
K- |
Engineering is the combination of art and science. An engineer practices art by creating a previously unknown solution (or design).
Good construction is in itself an art, especially in one off designs.
People like Mr. Pass, and Mr. D'agostino are artists and engineers like the rest of us (We all marry art and science in our designs and construction). However, they are also shrewd businessmen. They've found a way to make a living, doing their art. In my opinion, that is the difference between the amateurs and the professionals.
As an engineer by trade, I find there is never enough time to make a perfect product. I can't speak for everyone, but I believe this is where we as "amateurs" can excel. We can spend lifetimes on a single design. I would guess "Professionals" cannot this same luxury. (I'm an engineer by trade, and prefer to think of my audio designs as amateur... ...no bureaucratic headaches!)
As for Picasso. I choose not to be "successful" on the conventional scale. This is because I measure success on a different scale than Picasso fans.
-Dan
P.S. I have the ultimate respect for guys like Mr. Pass and others in his profession. It takes a lot of time and dedication to run a business like that. I'm sure it's not easy to balance product quality, reliability, and profitability at the same time. |
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| AKSA |
Ian,
Thank you for your nice post. Much appreciated.
I would be more than interested to discuss your US tour over many good coffees. Would you consider a visit to my workshop on the weekend?
Cheers,
Hugh |
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| macka |
Hugh,
Its always a pleasure to hear from you.
Much to talk about and some nice pictures.
I am still cooling my heals and recovering from climate shock (I have a cold), so maybe the following weekend, I will email.
Cheers,
Ian |
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| K-amps |
| quote: | Originally posted by dkemppai
Engineering is the combination of art and science. An engineer practices art by creating a previously unknown solution (or design).
Good construction is in itself an art, especially in one off designs.
People like Mr. Pass, and Mr. D'agostino are artists and engineers like the rest of us (We all marry art and science in our designs and construction). However, they are also shrewd businessmen. They've found a way to make a living, doing their art. In my opinion, that is the difference between the amateurs and the professionals.
As an engineer by trade, I find there is never enough time to make a perfect product. I can't speak for everyone, but I believe this is where we as "amateurs" can excel. We can spend lifetimes on a single design. I would guess "Professionals" cannot this same luxury. (I'm an engineer by trade, and prefer to think of my audio designs as amateur... ...no bureaucratic headaches!)
As for Picasso. I choose not to be "successful" on the conventional scale. This is because I measure success on a different scale than Picasso fans.
-Dan
P.S. I have the ultimate respect for guys like Mr. Pass and others in his profession. It takes a lot of time and dedication to run a business like that. I'm sure it's not easy to balance product quality, reliability, and profitability at the same time. |
Not all Engineers can handle the "art" aspect (most DIY'er s might) otherwise Self's designs would sell as good as his distortion numbers read... Personally I think the Krell marketing juggernaut is larger than Nelson's even though Nelson's designs seem to be more exotic/ exclusive and usually better sounding in some parameters.
K- |
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| jcx |
Halcro's commercial sucess certainly argues for the high weighting of artistic visual design and skillful marketing - while "the story" includes the obligitory claim of unusually acute hearing and dissatifiaction of all that came before its pretty clear that sub ppm distortion # are the result of strictly measurement driven engineering
another story i've heard several times is of someone losing money dielivering high performance at modest pricing deliberately and openly making the decision to shift to the hi end "nose bleed" pricing audiophile market - with the requisite exotic components and weighty custom milled aluminum plate enclosure and becoming a commercial sucess - these people may have electronic design elements in their marketing story but never seemed to indicate that there was ever any engineering risk in producing the actual amplifier circuit that would be accepted in the hi end market
Linn is only one more example - of how many K$ can be charged for a chip amp in a sexy enclosure - one more "the price is the point" marketing sucess
combining this evidence with double blind thresholds, Carver's Stereophile challenge and the well known loudness preference and the power of the expectaion effect I find it strange that there is such a strong belief in the very concept of an "ultimate" amp - it certainly seems likely that amplifiers that have matching frequency and output impedance response with no obvious defects are indistinguisable - certainly invisible compared with loudspeakers |
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| K-amps |
JCX,
To that thought, remember the Speaker grill color tests done in the 80's. (If memory serves)
The same speaker was places behind different shaped and colored Grills and people had statistically significantly different perceptions of the sound from the same speaker placed in the same position.
If I remember correctly, brown and black grills got the comment, "Dull and boring" from more than one test subject.
I am not implying aesthetics are the dominant variable, but it does skew perceptions.
K- |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by K-amps
The same speaker was places behind different shaped and colored Grills and people had statistically significantly different perceptions of the sound from the same speaker placed in the same position. |
Gooroo Angshoo always says that if a system looks sexy, it'll sound good. :) With 35 years of diy audio experience under his belt, he knows at least this part of the subject inside out. :)
That's why I've decided to take his sage advice and whenever I make anything for either my friends (i.e. their wives SAF) or myself (i.e. my own SAF), I intend to spare no effort on the veneer on the speaker enclosures and the multi-layered PU coats. Who needs accurate xo after that? :D
This probably also explains why the Krells and Halcros sound better in the amps department? You need to be a Peter Daniel to do a good job on metalwork as a diyer, I guess... |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by K-amps
TCPIP, Disagree with you on this, have you compared various Krells to the Aleph-X's/ Hiraga's/ JLH's personally? |
You misunderstood. I didn't mean to say that line was my opinion. I only meant that I was expecting diyers to say things like that, to defend the best diy designs against commercial competition. |
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| dexx |
| quote: | Originally posted by traderbam
This is not to say that you cannot build something better yourself... In principle, you you can make something that sounds as good or better than a Krell at under $300 parts cost. But you need to be wickedly cunning. |
I dont understand this. I thought the original poster to be asking for a top quality DIY design. I didnt think he was suggesting that he is going to research and design an amp himself. He wants to make a proven design. Why reinvent the wheel?
Are all the best designs already copyrighted? Surely audio isnt such an inexact science that a carefully constructed premium design using optimal components may not sound great? As to the Ferrari analogy - the difference is that Ferrari make all their own parts in a factory. Whereas (i'd expect) an amp would be contructed of components available to all. |
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| analog_sa |
| quote: | | Surely audio isnt such an inexact science that a carefully constructed premium design using optimal components may not sound great? |
Unfortunately it is. It may very well sound like a POS. |
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| carlosfm |
People keep making confusion with power and quality.
What's one thing got to do with the other?
Do you need a 1kwatt amp?
If so, buy a PA system.
Why the example of the Ferrari?
Is it the best car in the world?
Actually they have fame of being unreliable, you have to spend plenty of money to keep a car like this.
Porsche is quite the opposite.
But ultimately, it is very subjective, as Audio is: what's the best car in the world? Ferrari? Rolls-Royce?
It depends on what are your parameters to evaluate a good car, but I would say the Rolls.
Electricity is expensive here.
Even not talking of the price of the products, I don't have the money to drive a Ferrari, I don't have the money to keep a big class-A amp always on, but there are always market for this and people who like this things, even if it's just to impress the friends, or to get some girls.:D |
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| traderbam |
| quote: | | I dont understand this. I thought the original poster to be asking for a top quality DIY design. I didnt think he was suggesting that he is going to research and design an amp himself. He wants to make a proven design. Why reinvent the wheel? |
The original post implied a desire to find a cheap way to get Krell sound, and had a premise that there were DIY designs that would chieve this. My opinion is that they won't. Re-inventing the wheel is what this whole foum is about, isn't it?
Ferrari make their own parts because they need precision. Some audio mfrs do this to. Some have bespoke transistors made for them. Most screen parts against strict specifications. The trouble with DIY designs is that they usually specify only to a schematic and part number level. This is no where near specific enough to get audiophile sound, in my opinion. |
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| Nelson Pass |
| quote: | Originally posted by traderbam
[BFerrari make their own parts because they need precision. Some audio mfrs do this to. Some have bespoke transistors made for them. Most screen parts against strict specifications. The trouble with DIY designs is that they usually specify only to a schematic and part number level. This is no where near specific enough to get audiophile sound, in my opinion. [/B] |
I have yet to see actual evidence that any audio manufacturer
has actually had custom transistors made for them. They
simply seem to have re-labeled them. None of the fabrication
houses are going to tool up for the volume of a high-end
company, and Harmon, who could conceivably command such
a service, apparently chooses not to.
While the quality of the parts is important, what you do with
them is of far greater interest and consequence.
:cool: |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by traderbam
Ferrari make their own parts because they need precision. Some audio mfrs do this to. Some have bespoke transistors made for them. Most screen parts against strict specifications. The trouble with DIY designs is that they usually specify only to a schematic and part number level. This is no where near specific enough to get audiophile sound, in my opinion. |
Hmm, not a good example, or maybe it is actually a very good example, as it backs up NP's statement.
If you take a closer look at a ferrari testarossa, you will find that a huge number of the parts are actually standard Fiat parts.....
Magura:) |
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| till |
| And those parts they really need precision are manufactured over here... |
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| LRRockBox |
There seems to have grown a lot of confusion about what it is exactly I aim to do, here, so here it goes.
Since this is my first attempt to build an amp, I would like to use an existing design. Possibly some * minor* mods.
I would like to build a decent sounding amp I can listen to. I generally like the sound of US amps. I think the Germans are way too analytical, and the Italians sound thin. These are of course generalizations, and open to misinterpretation if that's what you want to do. There are VERY good Italian, German and Scandinavian amps, but I'm just trying to give an indication of the kind of sound I'm looking for.
I'm not in a position yet to start building an amp from scratch. I'd like to construct something I can live with, an take it from there. Who know's what tangent I'll go off to in a few years. but now I need a good starting point, one that will have me able to listen to some music in a few months.
Peter R. |
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| geewhizbang |
The topic has diverged from somebody's earlier post about a Honda Civic being modified to Ferrari performance.
I have ridden my bicycle behind a bright red Ferrari at a stoplight once, and just the incredible SOUND alone is worth the cost of admission, if you have that kind of money. There is no way that you could modify a Civic to have that sort of sound. It would still be front-wheel drive, and it would still look like a breadbox on wheels.
A Porsche can't compare, even if it does go around a curve better than the Ferrari. The Ferrari looks and sounds like it is going faster.
*****
On the topic of amps, I really miss my old PS-Audio amp. If you opened up the amp blocks, you could see a very modest number of components. I had two 450 watt or so blocks (I was running them bridged). I saw one of these blocks go for $2000 on ebay recently. Like I said, I had two of them. I got it for about $200 used in 1985 or so.
Someone stole mine. So I'm designing my new system around a less demanding power requirement this time and it sounds better than the old one in many ways.
While I can't use my current system outdoors and get high sound levels, but it sounds really fabulous, detailed and clean indoors.
I am going to build a gainclone and see what it does. I used to frown on switching power amps, but given that Linn and other high end companies have no trouble asking very high prices for their implementations using the same modules, I will try to get over that inclination.
I can't afford the AKSA kit right now, but it looks like a good amp. |
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| Damon Hill |
| quote: | Originally posted by LRRockBox
Since this is my first attempt to build an amp, I would like to use an existing design. Possibly some * minor* mods.
I would like to build a decent sounding amp I can listen to. I generally like the sound of US amps. I think the Germans are way too analytical, and the Italians sound thin. These are of course generalizations, and open to misinterpretation if that's what you want to do. There are VERY good Italian, German and Scandinavian amps, but I'm just trying to give an indication of the kind of sound I'm looking for.
I'm not in a position yet to start building an amp from scratch. I'd like to construct something I can live with, an take it from there. Who know's what tangent I'll go off to in a few years. but now I need a good starting point, one that will have me able to listen to some music in a few months.
|
I don't know of any source that provides a complete kit
to build a high quality amplifier of around 100-200 watts.
Most of these sources will provide at a minimum a PCB;
Seal can provide most of the major components. You'll
have to build it essentially from scratch no matter what,
unless you buy a used Hafler, for example, and replace
the electronics.
Consider a chassis design that would allow you to try
several different circuit designs; that means plastic
cased output transistors, which most any of these
designs listed below will work with.
some amplifier project sources, in no particular order:
http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/lowtim/
http://www.aksaonline.com/welcome.htm
http://www.sealelectronics.com/
http://sound.westhost.com/index.html
http://www.aussieamplifiers.com/
I'm certain there are other good sources, too.
You'll have to do some research and decide which
of these designs you like, and which might provide a
basis for a more powerful amplfier in a later project.
I think the Leach amplifier could be modified to as much
as twice the output power with three or four output
pairs and higher rail voltages. I have gotten many years of service out of the Leach amplfiers I have built and certainly
can recommend this design.
No matter what your choice, you'll find plenty of help
from the nuts at diyAudio.com! :D |
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| traderbam |
| quote: | | Nelson wrote: I have yet to see actual evidence that any audio manufacturer has actually had custom transistors made for them...While the quality of the parts is important, what you do with them is of far greater interest and consequence. |
How quaint. No Farrari for you, then. :clown: |
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| Jennice |
LRRockBox,
After reading about Civic's, Mark Levison's etc. for pages on end, I'll give my try to get back to more hands-on basics...
I made my first, simple power-amp before I attended the engineering academy. It was basically a design from a fairly basic book on this topic. It still plays today, some 10 years after, in daily use. It's old-fashioned, simple, but everyone in the family likes it, and it sounds less sharp and analytical (probably just destortion or low bandwidth :D ) than most others, but it's pleasant to listen to. It's not dual-mono either (was intended to, but didn't end up like that). However, for it's wattage, it has a perversely over-dimensioned PSU and capacitor array, and it seems to just jump alive shockingly fast. VERY dynamic! It has single output transistors (complementary push-pull pair, no magic there), but without any (!) resistors to limit current. The Bias voltage-multiplier transistor is mounted directly on the back of one of the power devices to respond fast enough to ensure thermal stability.
My next project was the Pass A40 (but with 1.5 A bias!).
Slight instability problems (probably because there were too long leads to/from the power devices). Actually, I don't know if I really preferred the sound of it compared to the first one I did, even thougfh there was no doubt which one was most expensive to build and run (electricity isn't free here...). However, it didn't seem to mind what load I hooked on it. 8ohms (nominal) or 4 ohms, or 2 ohms... Very rugged thing!
The last (most recent one) I've built also has a relatively big PSU, and has about 4 * 80W in 8 ohms. It can be bridged to 2 ch, and is still very stable and powerful in 4 ohm. The test ran with power resistors as load, which boiled water (didn't have >100 W resistors on the shelf :D ) Explodingly dynamic IMHO, but a very normal design throughout. My experiences show that it's not the rated wattage you need, but available current, since a transient will reveal that your speaker can go to a much lower resistance value than the nominal 8 ohm or whatever it's rated.
Hence...*drum roll* (phew it took long to get there... sorry :xeye: )
1) Find a fair and proven design (nothing revolutionary under the sun, as we've learned over the last 10 pages of postings)
2) Make a over-rated power-supply with all the storage capacitors you can fit (within reason, but 60.000 uF per channel is not unrealistic).
3) Don't be cheap on the output transistors. They'll take a lot of beating, so use ones with good power/thermal ratings, and use plenty of 'em.
4) Put some fused in the right places, but don't over-do it with safety-belt circuits that sense and adjust everywhere. They don't help the sound get better - on the contrary.
5) you don't need more watts than your speaker can handle. You "just" need the watts regardless of the conditions, and that's where the power supply comes into play.
6) KISS! (Keep it simple, stupid) Don't try to cram too much into one casing. It'll just interfere with neighbouring circuits. Mono blocks help ease this.
7) Pairing devices is good.. but if you have to put up priorities, go for better devices and less pairing. That's what the feedback will help with. *I will now expect to be killed by linearity freaks, but I'd prefere that to happen elsewhere*
Just my 2 cents...
Now go and have fun. You'll probably be surprised to see how far you'll come with modest budget.
Jennice |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by traderbam
Ferrari make their own parts because they need precision. |
Sure.
That's why they use Momo wheels.:clown:
And Magnetti Marelli or Bosch electronic fuel injection.:clown:
No Weber carbs anynore.:bawling:
:D |
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| K-amps |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nelson Pass
I have yet to see actual evidence that any audio manufacturer
has actually had custom transistors made for them. They
simply seem to have re-labeled them. None of the fabrication
houses are going to tool up for the volume of a high-end
company, and Harmon, who could conceivably command such
a service, apparently chooses not to.
While the quality of the parts is important, what you do with
them is of far greater interest and consequence.
:cool: |
Nelson,
I have read (more than once) on two separate interviews where Dan D'Agostino made statements about how they had custom parts ordered from Motorola. In the same interview he also mentioned that Motorola was not entertaining the idea of the Part he describes 20A 250v and fT of 30Mhz custom made for Krell so they said they would not do it for less than 1 million pieces... Dan agreed and they went ahead with the order.
Historically IMHO Krell and others have probably used re-labeled MJ15003/4 or MJ15022/23/24/25 variants in their amps.
But here is the deal, none of these devices does the above parameters. The 15003/5 will do 20A but not with a VCE of 250v. The 15024/25 will do 250v but at 16A not 20A, moreover none of these devices is 30Mhz capable, not even the newer MJ21193/4/5/6 parts that MOT/ON probably used to design the parts that Krell wanted. (The newer MJL4281 and 4302 do have an fT of 35mHz but they just came out now as opposed to when Krell got their devices in 1996.)
If I am to agree with your assessment, then Krell did come up with a pretty elaborate story that at least on the face of it ties out.
:dodgy:
K- |
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| Nelson Pass |
| quote: | Originally posted by K-amps
I have read (more than once) on two separate interviews where Dan D'Agostino made statements about how they had custom parts ordered from Motorola. In the same interview he also mentioned that Motorola was not entertaining the idea of the Part he describes 20A 250v and fT of 30Mhz custom made for Krell so they said they would not do it for less than 1 million pieces... Dan agreed and they went ahead with the order.
Historically IMHO Krell and others have probably used re-labeled MJ15003/4 or MJ15022/23/24/25 variants in their amps.
But here is the deal, none of these devices does the above parameters. The 15003/5 will do 20A but not with a VCE of 250v. The 15024/25 will do 250v but at 16A not 20A, moreover none of these devices is 30Mhz capable, not even the newer MJ21193/4/5/6 parts that MOT/ON probably used to design the parts that Krell wanted. (The newer MJL4281 and 4302 do have an fT of 35mHz but they just came out now as opposed to when Krell got their devices in 1996.)
If I am to agree with your assessment, then Krell did come up with a pretty elaborate story that at least on the face of it ties out. |
It seems to me that your analysis says it all. It is not appropriate
for me to divulge the information I have, but suffice it to say
that the ex-president of Krell Digital is now the president of
Pass Labs (me - I just cash checks), and one of our best
engineers used to be one of their best. :cool: |
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| K-amps |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nelson Pass
It seems to me that your analysis says it all. It is not appropriate
for me to divulge the information I have, but suffice it to say
that the ex-president of Krell Digital is now the president of
Pass Labs (me - I just cash checks), and one of our best
engineers used to be one of their best. :cool: |
I will leave it that. ;)
K- |
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| Damon Hill |
K-amps:
At one time Motorola was going to supply a MJ1302/
MJ3281 in TO-3 cases, but evidently these never
went into general production. I've got a Motorola
bipolar power catalog from circa 1995 showing them and
they would have had most of the characteristics you
mention. I do wish they'd offer their Toshiba clones in
metal cases; they'd have higher SOA and wattage.
As we know, Nelson Pass likes to order in quantity for
that discount price. :) Hate to be the one paying taxes
for all that stock, though.
Special labling is common, and I'm not too surprised to
see that custom parts were/are done. |
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| K-amps |
| quote: | Originally posted by Damon Hill
K-amps:
At one time Motorola was going to supply a MJ1302/
MJ3281 in TO-3 cases, but evidently these never
went into general production. I've got a Motorola
bipolar power catalog from circa 1995 showing them and
they would have had most of the characteristics you
mention. I do wish they'd offer their Toshiba clones in
metal cases; they'd have higher SOA and wattage.
As we know, Nelson Pass likes to order in quantity for
that discount price. :) Hate to be the one paying taxes
for all that stock, though.
Special labling is common, and I'm not too surprised to
see that custom parts were/are done. |
Thats good info...however I have poor memory but for some reason the 250watt figure also comes to mind... thereby made me not think of the 1302/3281's... any thoughts on that?
K- |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jennice
After reading about Civic's, Mark Levison's etc. for pages on end, I'll give my try to get back to more hands-on basics...
....
Just my 2 cents...
Now go and have fun. You'll probably be surprised to see how far you'll come with modest budget. |
I found this post very well written and useful --- I learned a lot. Thanks. :) |
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| Jennice |
*comes creaping out of his bomb-shelter*
Huh...? No crazy attacks on my points of view!? :bigeyes:
Thanks for your comment, itcpc.
I kmow it's kept pretty simple, but I'm pleased with the results I've achieved (well, mostly, except from the subject of interferring electronics when cramming 4 channels and 2 x 500 VA transformers into 1 case.) In my oppinion it took too much controlling circuits to power on/off and mute the 4 channels, which leads me to the thought of KISS and mono-blocks (or in this case 2 stereo-units in stead of 4ch in 1 unit.)
My next project still just in my mind, waiting for an excuse to get implemented (the W.A.F. issue, you know ;) ).
It'll have the switch/mute controll circuits in a seperate chassis, along with the first voltage amplification stage. Also, this approach solves the problem with turning on(off poweramp(s) located away from the other gear - or rather... forgetting to turn it off. :rolleyes:
This way, I will not have any low level signals near the large PSU section, and only the relays to power-on/off and output relays located in the power blocks. The controlling circuit resides in the controll box along with the voltage amplifier stage. All this is fairly low current stuff, so I'll avoid the magnetic radiation problems from nasty PSU transformers/rectifiers/cables.
Jennice |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jennice
I kmow it's kept pretty simple, but I'm pleased with the results I've achieved (well, mostly, except from the subject of interferring electronics when cramming 4 channels and 2 x 500 VA transformers into 1 case.) In my oppinion it took too much controlling circuits to power on/off and mute the 4 channels, which leads me to the thought of KISS and mono-blocks (or in this case 2 stereo-units in stead of 4ch in 1 unit.) |
This made me think. I'm thinking of embarking on a few speaker projects, starting with my current MTM-MM dream. All of these are active speakers. Eventually, I want to build speakers which will house the power transformer and PSU, active xo, and power amps all inside the speaker body (just like the Rushmore of Nelson Pass, but with Class B amps). What does one do to avoid all these shielding and interference problems? One thing one can do is use the full height of a floor-stander, I guess, and keep the transformer at the bottom and the signal-level electronics at the top. Is that enough? Secondly, do the speaker coils induce interference into the electronics?
Anyway, I guess this off-topic... |
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| Jennice |
Hi tcpip,
I've just mailed you directly - so we won't run too far off topic in here :-)
Jennice |
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