| MIB |
On a dutch audioforum hifi.nl a review of the 47 labs 4717 integrated amp was posted today, including some pictures of the inside. It made me wonder about the pictures of the gaincard internals that float over the net. If this diy-looking amp is the real thing, than the gaincard pictures might just as well be. ;)
Rob |
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| JazzzSpazzz |
They don't look like nice textbook solders to me.
Maybe that's the secret to their great sound ;)
Does anyone know what they are saying in the review? The only thing I could make out was "Dire Straits" on page 2. I guess somethings are universal.
Cheers,
Bret Morrow |
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| Peter Daniel |
I wouldn't worry about solder joints;)
What I find interesting is that the pins on a chip support the whole PCB (including caps). Even more interesting is the way the chip is mounted. As you see the enclosure is thin sheet metal, yet there is no srews visible on the outside where chips are mounted. It seems like a piece of thicker material is attached to the walls and there, a proper thread for mounting screw is made.
But I like this design, very simple, yet functional. |
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| Taco |
| The reviewer is impressed, but the amp was much better with classical music than with pop/rock. So the amp is recommeded for people who listen to classical music 90% of the time. The lack of colouration in the mid-band didn't work out with pop. This is roughly the contents of the dutch text. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Taco
The reviewer is impressed, but the amp was much better with classical music than with pop/rock. So the amp is recommeded for people who listen 90% of the time to classical music. |
I wouldn't be surprised with that. The case introduces quite a lot of resonances. It's not that 47Labs want to get rid of them, it seems like they don't. Those resonances may actually improve the way one might perceive classical music, but with pop/rock it may sound like early versions of surround sound;) |
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| 2Bak |
| Wonder what kind of internal wire they use... |
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| argo |
Piece of overpriced cheap junk produced by even cheaper labor power.What a rip-off and marketing hype. :redhot:.
I know, nobody forces anybody to buy it by the fret to his life but this kind of customer abuse makes one mad anyhow.
Shame on you Shigaraki san.
Argo |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by GregGC
It's impossible the pictures above to be the Gaincard. The Gaincard has each channel totally independant in a separate compartment (see the picture). Above pictures show the two chancels in one compartment. And it doesn't look like a production unit at all. It could be a review of a Gainclone, though.
/Greg |
The review is for Shigaraki which is "budget" version of gaincard. Those are two different products. Check sakurasystems.com for more info. |
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| GregGC |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
The review is for Shigaraki which is "budget" version of gaincard. Those are two different products. Check sakurasystems.com for more info. |
I stand corrected. My fault.
/Greg |
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| sam9 |
| While I can't say I've turned on by the whole concept, if forced to choose I'd say the workmanship of Peter Daniel's unit is on a much higher plane. In either case the prices seem a tad much but at least PD seems to think you deserve something for for your money. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by argo
Piece of overpriced cheap junk produced by even cheaper labor power. |
Cheaper labor power? Far as I'm aware Kimura San makes them there in Japan (he may even be making them all himself , where labor is hardly cheap. At least compared to mainland China and other places.
se |
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| Jamh |
The wires for power seem a bit too thin.
I wish we could see how the feedback resistor is attached. Is it on the back of the board?
Interesting that they don't use a circuit board. |
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| MIB |
the left pic is the back of the chip-board, but hard to tell where the feedback resistor is.
Rob |
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| argo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Cheaper labor power? Far as I'm aware Kimura San makes them there in Japan (he may even be making them all himself , where labor is hardly cheap. At least compared to mainland China and other places.
se |
Then he must hate his job or his customers or himself or all of the mentioned together. But maybe he just doesn’t pay enough to himself. Anyway it’s very poor job :down: |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | The reviewer is impressed, but the amp was much better with classical music than with pop/rock. |
I just love these generalisations! Classical music? What is that? A piano solo or a full orchestra?
What I have found is that with acoustic music, a passively driven amplifier can more accurately portay the nuances of the instrument(s) than an active system with more components in the signal path.
But for music that requires more oomph (for want of a better word), an actively driven amplifier does the job better than the passive.
So if the reviewer in this case was using 'classical' to describe a string quartet or solo piece (rather than a full symphony orchestra) then I am not surprised at their findings. ;) |
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| sam9 |
| My experience has been that amplifiers can't tell the difference between Scarlatti and Snoop-Doggy-Dog. They can, sometimes, find their limits stretched by signal level (peak vs. average) and may or may not have enough current to deal with some spectral content. All this is highly mitigated by the speakers. This may lead to some perception that there are performance differences in classical vs. pop and there may be a basis for that depending on which pop or classical one listens to. A string quartet vs. Pink Floyd full blast is one comparrision while Saint-Saens Sym No.3 vs. The Best of the Mammas and the Poppas is quite another comparrison |
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| lohk |
The construction of the amp is indeed quite interesting. That is how it looks to me:
Both channels are screwed to an internal stronger aluminium frame which is also firmly mounted to the damped base board. This also supports the front and the back panels inside mounting boards. The thin metal case is merely put "over" the whole assembly with very limited connections (only screws at the back side). The case also has additional holes for air circulation. This construction does not seem to be very vibration sensitive to me.
It is not visible if the fader pot is connected in the normal or in the shunt mode.
Besides of having only the provision for one set of supply voltages, the shagiraki amp seems to have an extra cap in the feedback path (the smaller one between the psu caps) unlike and a zobel like its elder brother. Same values of the resistors, you can see the 22k input resistor and one (very right) 680R feedback resistor. Star earthing is used with one star ground per channel only connected together at the supply like splitter.
The amp uses the same isolated chips, screwed to the frame with smaller supporting metal plates.
The transformer looks very small, it is difficult to say anything about the quality. The same grey diodes are used for the bridge (5A fast soft recovery, General Semiconductors FE5A). And no caps or snubbers.
Wires are thin, but solid core (the way how the are bended) with good isolation (except the psu wires).
Although it looks a bit cheap inside at first glance, I think it is quite clever made, everything is well thought over.
Do you guys really think you can hear if the soldering work also looks like it is done by hand?
If the amp is sounding good and you think you have got the sound what you have paid for - well what is the problem? If we DIYers can do everything better, than let us do it, instead of complaining about cheap workmanship and ripoff prices.
Klaus |
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| Pedja |
| quote: | Originally posted by lohk
The amp uses the same isolated chips, screwed to the frame with smaller supporting metal plates. |
The chips are non-isolated, in fact they are LM1875. |
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| KT |
I had a chance to talk to Yoshi Segoshi, US distributor for 47 Labs, briefly at the 2002 THE Show in NYC.
When I asked him what the differences between the Gaincard and the Shigiraki were, he mentioned that the 4717 used a different chip that sounded smoother and easier on the ear than that of the Gaincard. Therefore, some people found the 4717 more listenable.
He didn't mention the chip specifically, but based on what I've read on the forums, sounds like it may be the LM1875. If you can see it in the photos, well, there you go....
Best,
KT |
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| KT |
BTW, does any know what kind of resistors those brown ones are? Looks like the same ones used on that other amp's innards that's rumored to be the Gaincard.
Another BTW, those brown, blue, black, and white wires seen here and on those other "Gaincard" pix look suspiciously similar to those that run between my Gaincard and Power Humpty. Interesting.
Best,
KT |
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| Peter Daniel |
I still see it as a very well designed piece of equipment. Don't let the superficiality take you off the right track;)
I don't know if I could make it any better, seems like everything there has a purpose. |
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| purplepeople |
What some of you consider to be flaws in the workmanship may be there for artistic reasons. The "hand-made" look may actually be his way of showing that the no part of the amp is factory made.
In the days of the samurai, a katana was painstakingly hand-made to perfection. If there was even the smallest of flaws, the smith would not even give it away for free. That thinking has evolved into modern manufacturing where robots weld a car together with perfectly beaded seams. In response to this expected perfection, many modern Japanese artists intentionally add small flaws to show that their artwork is made by hand.
:)ensen. |
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| MIB |
| quote: | Originally posted by KT
He didn't mention the chip specifically, but based on what I've read on the forums, sounds like it may be the LM1875. If you can see it in the photos, well, there you go....
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The photos are clickable to enlarge, and even the chip type is readable in that way: *M1875T.
About the classical vs. pop thing: the reviewer was a little bit more specific, describing his experiences with different records. Best results were indeed with string quartets, Locatelli, Vivaldi, Händel, but.... also Dire Straits worked out very nicely. All this is just what I pick out of the review. Doing a full translation would be best to know the full story, but hey, my gainclone case arrives today, so I have better things to do
:D |
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| miguel2 |
Which input caps are there? They seem quite big electrolytics.
Miguel |
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| pinkmouse |
| quote: | Originally posted by MIB
Best results were indeed with string quartets, Locatelli, Vivaldi, Händel, but.... also Dire Straits worked out very nicely. |
Hmm, sounds like an undersize PSU causing dynamic range limitation to me :) |
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| Frank Berry |
And what's with the LED and current limiting resistor on the homemade little vecterboard attached to the power transformer?
Did someone forget to make a real PCB for the LED?
Sorry about my obviously sarcastic remark.
The amplifier looks like it was constructed by a child.
I don't care how good it sounds. The build is sloppy. |
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| carlmart |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
What I have found is that with acoustic music, a passively driven amplifier can more accurately portay the nuances of the instrument(s) than an active system with more components in the signal path.
But for music that requires more oomph (for want of a better word), an actively driven amplifier does the job better than the passive.
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You are probably right. In fact it might be a nice exercise adding a switch to a buffered Gainclone, where the switch-on bypasses the buffer for listening to acoustic music.
Carlos |
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| peranders |
When I see these pictures, which are for real obviously, I wonder:
Can't Sakura Systems do any better?
Does Sakura Systems do this only to annoy some people?
Does Sakura Systems fool some people?
Does Sakura Systems to 100% believe in their products?
Does Sakura Systems' customers not demand more or don't they care?
Does Sakura Systems' products meet normal CE standards? |
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| carlmart |
Some things to notice on this arrangement:
1) The electrolytic capacitors have no jacket. That is something several people have tried and seems to work. In any case it's a cheap thing to try.
2) The supply ground is up front, probably with a free space for the input connection pads.
3) The input cap is electrolytic. The resistor on the right seems to link input pin (1) to ground, which would be very much p2p. The one on the left, below the cap, might be part of a Zobel. That cap is probably part of the feedback.
The rest we can only guess.
Carlos |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | You are probably right. In fact it might be a nice exercise adding a switch to a buffered Gainclone, where the switch-on bypasses the buffer for listening to acoustic music. |
That thought had crossed my mind too Carlos; it would give the best of both worlds! ;) |
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| lohk |
I did not realize that some of the images were clickable to enlargen. LM1875T well, ok, nothing really unknown. Like in the Finallabs amp.
Your opinion about the cap in the feedback path?
This must be the one between the psu caps.
The smaller one underneath the board is obviously the input cap.
Is it possible to identify the caps only from their stripped can (size, backpattern, etc.)?
I still do not see a sloppy design here, intended to fool the customers. If you do not like this amp, simply do not buy it. |
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| moamps |
Cheap design.
Input signal from second and third input goes thru two switches.
Fader pot costs ca 5€ (for cheap consoles). Where is P&G?
Output signal goes thru weak switch, wires are very thin.
This is obviously NI design, than input and output wires are dangerously close.
It's possible to find all parts (except case) in local store for ca 100€.
What is purpose off red cap on bottom side?
Regards |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by moamps
What is purpose off red cap on bottom side?
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Zobel?;) |
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| GUILHERME |
IMHO,
Anyone planing on giving 2000€ for that piece of er... art, should audition a Plinius 8100 integrated (for example) which is not only cheaper but will play all sorts of music with authority, finesse and a lush that would make some wondering if it doesn't have some glass inside.
:2c:
Regards,
J.Guilherme |
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| carlosfm |
What's this junk?:eek:
If a diyer here made a junk like that people would laugh.
But it's from 47Labs...:dodgy:
Small trafo, thin wires, non-shielded signal wire, cheap speaker terminals, kitchen-made PCB, bad soldering...
And that small board joining the wires?:eek:
Seams like a pre-historic radio.:clown:
And when I see those caps without jacket I get very suspicious...
They may say those are BGs or whatever.
I think that they may even be those cheapie-clear-green caps at 50c each that without the jacket anybody will notice.:whazzat:
A little more care on any commercial product is needed.
Even a cheap 100 Euro amp looks better than this.:dead: |
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| moamps |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Zobel?;) |
Oups!:) |
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| 2Bak |
Those good reviews of the Gaincard amp we read on SakuraSystem website, were they not the reason for us starting to build (in thousands...?) those more or less professional looking clones...?
http://www.sakurasystems.com/reviews.html
SakuraSystem was the first company who made amplifiers with opamps successfully, were they not?
Then people on the ChipDIY website and Peter Daniel here at diyAudio made the clones, and convinced the rest of us.
Why critizise them now?
To me this 4717 looks cool.
/Jan |
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| Nuuk |
Well of course it could be seen as a threat to all those who think that expensive binding posts etc actually make a difference! :att'n:
I won't get into an argument about the price but it actually looks like an honest bit of engineering to me - refreshingly so for a commercial product. ;) |
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| MIB |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
And when I see those caps without jacket I get very suspicious...
They may say those are BGs or whatever.
I think that they may even be those cheapie-clear-green caps at 50c each that without the jacket anybody will notice.:whazzat:
A little more care on any commercial product is needed.
Even a cheap 100 Euro amp looks better than this.:dead: |
I recall reading a reaction of Kimura somewhere, saying that he on purpose uses 'normal' components, so no audiophile stuff, because the sound of audiophile stuff would be to refined/artificial (do not recall exactly). Anyway, no BG's, but he doesn't pretend to use those as well.
Rob |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by 2Bak
SakuraSystem was the first company who made amplifiers with opamps successfully, were they not?
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Of course not.:whazzat:
And, before this Gaincard/clone movement, and before having even seen a review of a Gaincard, I listened to that on a hi-fi dealer in Cascais.
This was some years ago and it was presented to me as a "new japanese high-end manufacturer".
I though those very thin wires were very curious, but I actually liked the sound of the Gaincard.
That's not in question here.
What's in question is if a manufacturer can ask huge amounts of money by a product like this.
Externally the boxes are ok, but internaly what a mess!:eek:
A friend of mine some years ago said to me that high-end costs what it sounds, independently of being cheap or expensive to make.
I found it hard to believe at that time, but as time goes by I learned that he's right.
I could make a cheap passive pre with just a good pot inside and ask 10,000 Euros for that.:clown:
Sounds good, doesn't it?
So it deserves the money.:cool: |
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| lohk |
I - although not involved with 47labs - slowly get angry with some of the reactions/prejudiced non-reactions in this thread:
Cheap design?
In very many preamps the signal passes two switches:
1: the input selector
2. the tape/source selector
What is the problem here?
The amp output is often routed via a small relais: Better than a switch?
Thin cables?
Thin solid core, specially for shorter lenghth, can sound better than any other cable. It can also be a part of the design if the resistance is low (like the discussed output resistor).
Cheap fader?
Where do you see that?
Everything for 100$?
Why not, considered the profit margins, storage costs etc. If you do not like a painting do you calculate the cost of the oil color and the canvas instead and blame the artist for beeing "too expensive"?
Pre historic radio?
If this would be a tube amp, nobody would argue.
Stripped caps?
Although I never tried that, there are well respected members in this forum who do the same with very good results.
Non-shielded wires?
No comment. (In a well shielded case? ...)
I tend to admire this design even more. It is more like a piece of art, done by hand in an individual manner.
Again: If you do not like it and the way how it sounds, do not buy it. If you have troubles with the way how it looks from inside, do not open the case.
Whats the matter with some of you guys, are you jealous?
ps: The red cap underneath the board is - by size - the Zobel cap (WIMA). |
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| Magura |
I tend to agree with Carlos.
Wonder when bad soldered joints became art?? I sure would be unhappy if I had to put my name on something sporting that low quality craftmanship.
Magura:) |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by lohk
Non-shielded wires?
No comment. (In a well shielded case? ...)
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And the rest of what's inside the case?
No comment. |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magura
I sure would be unhappy if I had to put my name on something sporting that low quality craftmanship.
Magura:) |
And that cap floating under the circuit?:D
Without jacket too.:eek: |
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| sam9 |
" 'Best results were indeed with string quartets, Locatelli, Vivaldi, Händel, but.... also Dire Straits worked out very nicely. '
"Hmm, sounds like an undersize PSU causing dynamic range limitation to me "
Exactly. I don't think connecting it to my Magges and putting on Toccata & Fuge in D would be a good idea . . .:devilr: |
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| moamps |
| quote: | Originally posted by lohk
Cheap fader?
Where do you see that?
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Hi,
this pot looks like that on picture below. This is a low budget ALPS pot very often installed in small budget audio consoles.
In 2000€ amp I expect something better (like this one: http://www.pennyandgiles.com/docGallery/76.PDF or similar)
Regards |
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| sam9 |
"SakuraSystem was the first company who made amplifiers with opamps successfully, were they not? "
When did they first come on the market? I think Nohr also uses IC amps - when did they appear? Also it would not surprise me to find that IC amps appeared in the automotive market quite a bit sooner. Not to mention the amp section of boom boxes. I think it may be more accurate to say that Sakura is the first to charge over $500 for an IC amp. |
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| Peter Daniel |
I remember reading Stereophile review of $6,000 Nagra preamp and it was mentioned that cheap plastic pot was used because it sounded good.
Also, GBP12,000 Naim preamp seem to sport cheap Alps (motorized) pots. All those internal wiring doesn't look that great either;) |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
Even a cheap 100 Euro amp looks better than this.:dead: |
Does it REALLY?
Okay, all components would be on one PCB (including switches, jacks and spring clip type wire connectors.
That would LOOK neat on the outside, but usually signal & ground routing is usually awful. You would be unlikely to see a LM1875 with symmetrical supplies but most likely a 12V Supply BTL Class B Stereo Chip. If you are lucky that will keep grounding problems to a minmum.
Certain of the difference between 47labs gear and most other commercial items which make for the look are deliberate.
Multiple small PCB's strung together with wire instead of one large PCB makes sense to me, for example. Hand soldering usually looks rarely as neat as flow soldered connections and usually makes much better connections. Small PCB's reduce the problems with vibrations and microphony.
I suspect fitting everything to a PCB conventional PCB would actually bring the effort required to make such an Amp way down. I am also almost certain Kimura San tried this first, after working with a hardwired prototype "birdsnest" and I suspect he discovere dthe simple truth - PCB's suck, sonically speaking. ;-)
One MAY argue about the "value for money" aspect of 47Lab's gear. One MAY do this for much of the High End gear sold through the usual Sales and Distribution Channels (I have some idea of dealers and distributors margins, which they BTW require to operate including the staging of Shows, the rent for the premesis and the demo stock etc.). Hence singeling 47labs out for a gripe over this seems unreasonable, if the rest of the industry is the same.
So, can we move on?
I think we now know pretty accuratly what is inside a Gaincard and Shigaraki, close enought that a very close clone should be easy, excepting the mains transformer issue, which I can assure you is critical for the sound. We know Voltages, values of passive, have good ideas about brands of most passives and know the execution of the designs. Many will also agree that few of the concepts found in GC are carried to the logical conclusion by 47labs.
So, how about we stop bashing 47labs, try to copy them and simply do our own thing, try more interesting things one can do with chip power amp's.
I for one would like to see someone make a minimalist "BiAmpliFiddler" design with LM3875 and a subtractive X-Over plus switchable suitable HF & LF EQ circuits with bridge Amp's for woofer and Tweeter to be used in activating the common 2-Way HiFi Speakers. Now for that a neat layout (grounding etc) and vestigal PCB would be great.
Or how about inverting Mode Bridge Amp's including active error canceling with layout and an input sensitivity matched to the Behringer DCX2496 Digital X-Over?
That wopuld be a great deal more constructive and helpfull to budding DIY'ers than endless 47labs bashing.
Sayonara |
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| PeteM |
>>excepting the mains transformer issue, which I can assure you is critical for the sound<<
Does It REALLY ?
Well having gone from this
To this
I for one not so sure about power supplies.My recent JFET amp out smarts the valve buffer by a very big margin.Deeper tighter bass,more open mids & clearer tops.
So what gives using a valve for a buffer or a power supply that could easily give you an hernia. |
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| li_gangyi |
| I'm not so sure about the quality of the stuff inside...but I'm darn sure if I were to do it using the same box...I would've done it P2P...plus it looks neater too... |
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| Pedja |
The solder joints look terrible. Assuming normal PCB, they look like done by an absolute beginner, using worst soldering iron. It is hard to believe that they can not do better. However, this is apparently the case with any 47Lab amp (if I am allowed to, regardless of the official denial, speak about the pictures that appeared two years ago like they show the gut of the real GainCard). So, what can be the reason? Is that board normal? Maybe the copper is thicker than usually?
| quote: | Originally posted by lohk
Your opinion about the cap in the feedback path?
This must be the one between the psu caps. |
Yes, probably it is that. Likely because LM1875 might have taller offset than LM3875.
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Well of course it could be seen as a threat to all those who think that expensive binding posts etc actually make a difference! :att'n: |
I can find these for less than (a few for) one EUR here at local bazaar (next to spinach and shoelace). Quite decent they are though. But you will have hard time to explain to long term magazine readers that none needs 1000$ for binding posts to have a “non-compromise” design.
Pedja |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
Konnichiwa,
Does it REALLY?
Okay, all components would be on one PCB (including switches, jacks and spring clip type wire connectors.
Sayonara |
Come on, Kuei...
Some years ago (not so many) I brought from London an AMC amp for my father.
New.
Price: 100 Euros.:D
And no spring clips, thank you.
I just gave an example of visual impact of opening a junk like this 47 Labs thing.
Anyway, for the price of a 50w Gaincard I would much prefer to spend my money on a Jeff Rowland Concentra.
That's the point.
As I said, I've heard the Gaincard and it sounds very good indeed.
With some fullrange french horn speakers. |
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| peranders |
| Carlos, I'll guess your silence is speaking... :shutup: :D |
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| carlosfm |
| Man, you're fast.:D |
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| Jamh |
For what is worth, with the only exception of the sloppy soldering, I think the design is well executed. To start with, when 47 labs came out using an "opamp" everyone was chuckling. The same opamp that you get in a $30 kit.
I think what is motivating the construction here is a sense of esthetics. Everything seems to be made by hand rather than machines. When you look at an Haute Couture dress closely, you notice that the stitching is sloppy in spots, hurried, nervous. But from far the cut is exquisite.
A guess here, but I think the removal of the caps' sleeves had to do as much with sound as with their looks, or removal of printed plastic where everything is aluminum and copper.
It would be interesting to get hold of one of these, and do a sound comparison with one of ours. Sound is weird, some cheap cat5 cable sometimes sounds better than a $10k esotheric gold and wood contraption. |
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| carlosfm |
The circuit of the Gaincard is basically what's in the datasheet, so the credit must go first to National.
I recognize the credits to 47 Labs for making an original design, but other brands were making chip-based amps before.
Like Linn.
I'm sorry to say this, it's just my oppinion, but I make things by hand too, and those solder joints are suspitious.
Maby the man is paying non-skilled people to make the amps?:(
Friends?
Family?
:clown: |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | I can find these for less than (a few for) one EUR here at local bazaar (next to spinach and shoelace). |
Pedja, which sounds best - the spinach or shoelace? :D
Now I wish that I could pick up hi-fi components while I shopped for groceries! :bawling:
I too wondered if the PCB had thicker than usual copper. I just cannot believe that there is no other reason for the soldering other than it is 'bad soldering'! Surely it would be financial suicide to send a product out like that (especially for a review) if there were not a good reason behind it!
Or perhaps that strange sense of humour the Japenense are renowned for is at work here. Imagine a new TV game show where the winner is the guy who can send the worst made product to the west and get them to rave about it. Stranger things have been on Japanese TV! :att'n: |
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| karma |
the case is nice the slide potentiometer gota go. maybe it sounds better but there a pain to keep servicing. dust collectors
;)
solder could be better:D |
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| setmenu |
There is 'handmade' and there is poor workmanship, I do not
think the two should be equated with each other.
I have often seen shoddy products marketed as 'handmade' and
this really riles me:mad:
This can especially be the case with artwork, as genuinely loose and vital artistic styles can lend themselves to very poor imitation,
with the consequence that those with a less honed artistic
eye can be 'taken in' and relieved of their hard earned cash.
:mad:
Regarding the amp in question, I guess if the designer achieved
the sonic results aimed for using this method of construction
then why change it?
And for some light relief;) this was my most tedious p2p project
to date..
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| Richard C |
It's not surprising to hear that many GC devotees don't seem to think that the standard of soldering or construction is important. It seems that the most important things are the plastic covering on the capacitors, the material the heatsinks are made from and the type of feet fitted to the case.:xeye:
Maybe they should change the name to ":censored: You Labs". |
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| Peter Daniel |
I don't understand why some of you think that quality of soldering is not good. Ever tried to solder without mask? It's basically how it comes out in those pictures, you just can't make it any better.
And solder mask apparently affects sound as much as isolation type on cables;) |
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| Richard C |
| Oh yes, forgot to mention the sonic degradation caused by the solder-mask :rolleyes: |
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| Peter Daniel |
| Yeah, with those chips everything counts;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
I for one would like to see someone make a minimalist "BiAmpliFiddler" design with LM3875 and a subtractive X-Over plus switchable suitable HF & LF EQ circuits with bridge Amp's for woofer and Tweeter to be used in activating the common 2-Way HiFi Speakers. Now for that a neat layout (grounding etc) and vestigal PCB would be great.
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I wouldn't mind working on that project, but further support would be required, as you all know, I can't be considered an amp designer.;) |
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| GregGC |
The small cap between the two big PS caps looks like is not in the NFB but is connected between the +V and -V of the PS. Maybe 10-100 uf/63-100VDC.
Peter is right that without Solder mask you can't get better-looking solders. Whether the Solder mask deteriorates the sound that's a different matter. One of the input hanging caps is scary close to the pcb though.
/Greg |
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| karma |
hmm sounds better with big globs of solder i think ill get my local plumber to build my next amp;)
http://www.mrrooter.com
ill go with the globs of solder thing but the slide potentiometer you will never sell me on that:rolleyes: |
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| carlosfm |
Internally all silver solder.;)
You can open it, you won't be shocked.:devily:
8,000 Euros.:yikes:
Deal?:up: :innocent:
:D |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
I don't understand why some of you think that quality of soldering is not good. Ever tried to solder without mask? It's basically how it comes out in those pictures, you just can't make it any better. |
Speak for yourself. :D
Yeah, soldering to bare copperclad ain't exactly like soldering to a masked board, but I assure you that it's possible to produce much less globular joints than are seen in the photos.
By the way, here's the Gaincard. :yikes:
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| Nuuk |
Well, we could argue whether we would be here on a chip amp forum if it wasn't for the original Gaincard amplifier.
And once again 47 Labs have provided material for an entertaining debate. Whatever the merits of their equipment, we should be grateful for the interest that their products generate! :yinyang: |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Well, we could argue whether we would be here on a chip amp forum if it wasn't for the original Gaincard amplifier. |
Absolutely.
| quote: | | And once again 47 Labs have provided material for an entertaining debate. Whatever the merits of their equipment, we should be grateful for the interest that their products generate! :yinyang: |
Yes.
I'm not wholly without admiration of 47 Labs. More than anything I admire 47 Labs for thumbing its nose at much of what the prevailing status quo held as axiomatic.
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| PeteM |
I can not comment on sound quality.But have to comment on what i see
Anybody here who endorses such build quality at this price should be ashamed regardless how this amp may sound.Afterall it contains an handful of components that cost likely less than a tenth of its sale price.
Furthermore those who endorse this amp should lose any credibility when it comes to claims about loading bars capacitor clamping or anything else you do not see.
2000 Euros for this pile of dog S******* with it P**S poor casework is really taking the P**S,I bet the salesman would laugh and say a mug born everyday.
This amp is not some kitchen top DIY it's a commercial item,perhaps made on the kitchen top |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by PeteM
Furthermore those who endorse this amp should lose any credibility when it comes to claims about loading bars capacitor clamping or anything else you do not see.
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It's just a different approach (and different design philosophy), but it's still not completely settled which one actually is better;) |
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| PeteM |
Peter
I would not argue which way is better regarding builds I did an apprentice many years ago and was spoon fed on Boxford and Myford lathes & milling machines.
Not having access to such equipment leaves me knowing only the way I build now on my kitchen worktop.
Point I am making is on a constructional point of view (not sonic related) is the build from my armchair looks very poor given the price tag.
It very much reminds me of the mass produced folded tin toys I played with back in the sixties,look at Amp-1 and look at this product.Surely you would not tell me you would be happy to put your name to this |
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| Peter Daniel |
| I agree that what we've seen in those pics, doesn't justify the price tag. But, OTOH, we all know by far, that what it sounds like definitely is worth that price. That we all can build it ourselves even much better, is a totally different story;) |
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| Pjotr |
That build quality looks much the same as I’ve found in $10, 200W PC speakers of unknown brand, probably assembled in India/China at almost no labour costs.
That the LM chips from National sound good, was/is known long before Shigaraki made it hype (the chips are actually quite old). What is really a shame is that it was necessary that the chips needed to be sold for several thousands of bucks (by Shigaraki) to be recognised :rolleyes:
Cheers ;) |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
| quote: | Originally posted by PeteM
Anybody here who endorses such build quality at this price should be ashamed regardless how this amp may sound.Afterall it contains an handful of components that cost likely less than a tenth of its sale price. |
Hmmm. I can appreciate your angle, but having the view from both sides....
| quote: | Originally posted by PeteM
2000 Euros for this pile of dog S******* with it P**S poor casework is really taking the P**S,I bet the salesman would laugh and say a mug born everyday. |
Strong words.
As it so happens, I know a € 2,250 Product. The manufacturer (it is "handbuild in the EU" and has quite a few solder joins etc and no - not all are as perfect looking as flow soldering, especially not with low lead content solders) makes € 400 for the effort. Now as it happens the manufacturer believes (correctly) that is product is outstanding, in all but final internal fit & finish. Customers feel it offers a more than excellent price perfoamce ratio, compared to the rest of the market (eg spanks the butt of products many times it's price).
Now I am sure the product could be made fully automated much cheaper. This would of course also imply any number of changes that would not be conductive to sound quality and would require a massive investment into machines first. Now we are talking literally 100's of thousands for machinery and tooling, on uncertain sales. It is hard to find that kind of investment money.
Of course, some people will call this particular hardworking gentleman and his employees fraudsters, for making a fairly frugal living from the product.
Sayonara |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by PeteM
Anybody here who endorses such build quality at this price should be ashamed regardless how this amp may sound.Afterall it contains an handful of components that cost likely less than a tenth of its sale price.
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:D :) :cool:
It may be shocking for you, but in high-end things cost the price of what they sound.:xeye:
I value much more an 100 Euro amp than an 100 Euro interconnect cable.
Which one costs more to produce?
And there are 2,000 Euros interconnects.:att'n:
Anyway, the offer is still standing:
One of my GCs for 8,000 Euros?:clown: :) |
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| purplepeople |
I see most of you have never seen a handmade racing bicycle without the paint. If you did, you'd wonder why Lance Armstrong thinks they're so great. And yet, the boy keeps on winning. Hmmm....
It's an amp, not a photograph. Who cares how it looks... If I can't pull the wires from the board, then the solder is doing it's job. If it still sounds great after I try that, then so what if it's a bit blobby. Maybe he uses flame to solder for a different type of contamination in joint. Who knows? Who cares?
:)ensen. |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
By the way, here's the Gaincard. :yikes:
se |
:whazzat:
I'm really sorry for that chip.:cannotbe:
Why go to the trouble or making a (such a lousy) PCB and then solder the (cheap and crappy) components P2P?:dodgy:
This really escapes me...
I guess someone will kill us (the shocked brigade).
Because it seams not politically correct to criticize the s**t internals of these amps, it's 47 Labs .
It escaped me at first sight, but those pots are the worst things I know.:bawling:
Contact spray every 3 months?:devily:
As for the Gaincard, I would keep the box and :headshot: the PCB.
:D |
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| roibm |
| One thing I don't understand is why so many people are angry at the price and the components/labor inside. You pay for the sound not for how it is achieved. If the quality of the sound is in 2KEur class(or better) why care at all? They are smart since they are able to produce better quality with fewer components. They deserve their money. Even more for their courage to build such and amp ignoring what the trend is and proving that it can be done. |
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| roibm |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
tbe:
Why go to the trouble or making a (such a lousy) PCB and then solder the (cheap and crappy) components P2P?:dodgy:
This really escapes me... |
I think it is made like that for a reason... Would you agree with me that using a PCB would be faster(hence cheaper too since the labor costs a lot)? Then why didn't they use it? It is also cheaper than the copper they use. |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by purplepeople
I see most of you have never seen a handmade racing bicycle without the paint. If you did, you'd wonder why Lance Armstrong thinks they're so great. And yet, the boy keeps on winning. Hmmm....
:)ensen. |
Thats a pretty bad analogy. I can assure you that those handmade bicycles made for top pro's are absolutely flawless. Ive stripped the paint on quite a number of that sort of bikes, and cut up just as many, to gain knowledge about their construction. Besides that Ive made a number of such bike frames for top riders myself.....trust me, thats a no expense spared matter.
As far as im concerned there is no way poor craftmanship can be defended...for bikes or amps.
Magura:) |
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| sam9 |
"It's just a different approach (and different design philosophy), but it's still not completely settled which one actually is bett"
Let me ask it another way: would you book a flight across the Atlantic on a plane with similar quality construction? |
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| roibm |
| quote: | Originally posted by sam9
Let me ask it another way: would you book a flight across the Atlantic on a plane with similar quality construction? |
The craziest comparison :D
pot? |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by sam9
Let me ask it another way: would you book a flight across the Atlantic on a plane with similar quality construction? |
:D :D :D :) :cool: :clown:
How can I go to bed now if I can't stop laughing?:D
Brilliant!:cool: |
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| purplepeople |
| quote: | Originally posted by sam9
"It's just a different approach (and different design philosophy), but it's still not completely settled which one actually is bett"
Let me ask it another way: would you book a flight across the Atlantic on a plane with similar quality construction? |
Touche. OTOH, when I fly, I do enjoy telling other passengers that the plane is actually glued together.
| quote: | Originally posted by Magura
Thats a pretty bad analogy. I can assure you that those handmade bicycles made for top pro's are absolutely flawless. Ive stripped the paint on quite a number of that sort of bikes, and cut up just as many, to gain knowledge about their construction. Besides that Ive made a number of such bike frames for top riders myself.....trust me, thats a no expense spared matter.
As far as im concerned there is no way poor craftmanship can be defended...for bikes or amps.
Magura:) |
Maybe you used jigs in your work and pre-cut tubes, but that would be the equivalent of a solder mask.
In custom recumbents, every piece is sized and fitted by hand. I've never met a brazed joint or a carbon lay-up that didn't need some pre-finish work. As long as it was strong enough to do the job, light enough to ride uphill and shaped the way it needed to be, who cares what it looked like under the paint.
That said, I too care about workmanship and wouldn't dare release such work in public, even if it didn't affect the sound. I just won't disparage Kimura's work if they deliver the goods.
The HPV analogy is Gold Rush vs Vector. Vector is ten times more beautiful but lost the race to the Easy Racers team. Yet, Vector is why so many have entered recumbents. Gaincard is the same reason why so many build Gainclones.
Just like with GC, I won't pay for a Gold Rush, but prefer to build my own for much less.
:)ensen. |
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| Pedja |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pedja
I can find these for less than (a few for) one EUR here at local bazaar (next to spinach and shoelace). |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Pedja, which sounds best - the spinach or shoelace? :D
Now I wish that I could pick up hi-fi components while I shopped for groceries! :bawling: |
Hmm, uncle Nick, you never know what can serve for what. I mean, there are always certain chances the things won’t be used as proposed… |
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| lohk |
| quote: | Originally posted by GregGC
The small cap between the two big PS caps looks like is not in the NFB but is connected between the +V and -V of the PS. Maybe 10-100 uf/63-100VDC.
/Greg |
I cannot see that. The cap sits just between the psu caps, the copper side here does not provide connections for + and - .
Thats why I thought about this cap being in the feedback path.But on the other hand a cap between + and - would make sense, I have good experiences with (smaller film) caps at this position. |
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| Ropie |
Looking at those pictures in the review, the entire amp looks handmade, which it probably is. Isn't that the point? Anyone who opens the box will expect to find a set of rustic pcbs. They certainly don't resemble any other commercial innards I've seen this side of the 1970s, maybe that is also a conscious choice - it has the look of a timeless design.
Would I pay 2000 euros for it? Definitely not, but I wouldn't pay that much for anything electronic and I know how to do rusic well enough myself. However, the market this amp is aimed at is fairly obvious I think: handmade, minimalist design extended to as many appliances as possible. Many people will pay a lot of money for that effect. |
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| Frank Berry |
I still say the build is sloppy.
I have "handmade" many pieces of equipment including this equalizer which I built for a local business to improve the sound of their background music system. It did.
It's easy to see that this equalizer was built by hand.
The wiring harness isn't exactly right. Some of the wires are too long.
It shows an attempt to produce a professional looking product.
The interior of the "Gaincard" shows no such attempt. |
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| Steve Eddy |
Maybe it's like hairstyles.
I've seen people spend considerable amounts of time intentionally making their hair look like they just got out of bed after 12 hours of restless sleep. :)
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| KT |
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect the opinion of everyone who has posted here.
I find it interesting, though, that everyone with a complaint is pretty technically saavy and complaining about workmanship and price vs materials.
I'm pretty confident that the average purchaser of the 47 Labs gear would never even get an inkling to look inside one of these. That said, I don't think 47 Labs will change their methods to soothe the ire of us tech-types, so long as their gear delivers what their customers expect (don't tell me that too many of you guys consider yourselves "customers" of 47 Labs - you know what I mean, you DIYers).
And if you really feel like you need to do something about it, well, we do live in a market economy. You're free to market your own competing product. If enough people prefer your clean layout/solder joints and find your more reasonable price markup attractive... well, hey, your're in business... and have proven your point. Otherwise, thanks for your opinion (but not your flames).
As for my own thoughts, seems to me 47Labs would save a lot of time and effort just whipping up some PC boards to stuff. Why do they do it by hand, especially when it ends up looking not so clean and is obviously more work and time intensive? Beats me. Could it affect the sound?
I don't mind the workmanship. Looks to me that the solder joints are pretty solid despite being blobby, and I'm really happy with my 25 watt Gaincard (I still pefer it with a tubed line stage, though). When I look at my amp, I don't think "man, I wish the workmanship inside were cleaner." Nope, I appreciate the cool form factor, and more than that I really like how it sounds - works for me, and makes me happy.
If I could do it again, I'd try building an all-out GC based on Brian GT's boards with my own case design and all. Too bad these forums weren't around at that time. But I have no regrets paying what I did for my Gaincard. I really think it's cool, and it's the amp that I use every day.
I recently worked at a high-end audio salon and have seen and heard a lot of mega-buck amps that were impeccably put together. But you know what? Most of them weren't special... sound-wise, that is... not enough so that I would want to take one home. In fact, in the time I worked there, there were only a handful of products that I thought were really exceptional. The Gaincard was one of them.
So I don't lose too much sleep about messy-looking solder joint. I just know what makes me happy and go by that.
Best,
KT |
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| KT |
Steve,
Re: Hair
Do you live in Williamsburg, in Brooklyn? (har har)
KT |
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| carlosfm |
KT, suppuse you have the amp, say, 20 years from now.
Something goes wrong.
You need to change a resistor.:devily:
You'll say what a F...&%%$##""!!#%&$ing board!:yikes:
Willllllllllllllllllllllllmmmaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! :D
Hold on this board, I'm burning my fingers!:Pawprint:
Then you'll feel like you're gonna :headshot: the amp.:D
Seriously, on the inside that deam amp seams like a made-in-china radio 30 years ago.:bawling: |
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| sam9 |
KT & Calosfm,
It looks to me like 47 Lab has devised an incredible low cost way of dealing warranty returns -- do no diagnosis of the problem, just rip the insides out and replace them. Materials cost: US$30 max and labor limited to basic salvage+assembly. |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | KT, suppuse you have the amp, say, 20 years from now.
Something goes wrong.
You need to change a resistor. |
Well Carlos, he will just come to diyAudio and get the help that he needs. :D |
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| matjans |
does it really matter what the inside looks like? Most of the people that buy these amps never open them up anyway (especially if there's a sticker saying something with void and warranty ;) ).
Maybe the mess adds in harmonics somewhere which makes it sound "just right". It sounds pretty good, imho... |
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| chris ma |
The so call high end audio products IMHO are like art, either you like it or you don’t, $ price justification is reflected on demand and supply. For instance I don’t think we can really justify an oil painting’s price with its material costs. We certainly can admire or criticize the technique he employs but not the price. If it can be sold with higher price all power to him. Why would one pay a million dollar for a painting with just some old oil paint slapped on the old canvas with a broken frame and can’t even figure out what is in the picture? If one likes it and with the buying power why not? May be for some of us this is insane but for those people satisfaction can be bought for whatever reason is the next thing money can buy; before one departs from this dimension we are in currently.
Just my 2 bobs,
Chris
;) |
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