| carlosfm |
Don't mix paintings with audio, please.
You can open an amp to see what's in there.
In fact, you can see what's in there in many cases without opening it, but not on these ones (they wouldn't dare:clown: ).
Do you open a painting?:clown:
So, you can compare the outside looking of an amp, and that may be a piece of art.
What it sounds is ultimately what matters.
But looking at this f...%%/$%&$##%&/&%#ing amp inside I run away.:bawling:
I'm convinced that even people without any electronics knowledge, those who never opened an amp, would be horrified to look at this opened piece of ****.:dead:
Sorry, this just isn't a PROFESSIONAL job.:dead: |
|
|
| dhenryp |
I am not offended by the cost or quality of components nor does the retail price bother me. People can charge and spend whatever makes sense to them. This is pretty clearly an amp designed and built to a (low) cost. Having the PC boards hanging on by the leads of the IC gives me some pause and would make we worry about long term reliability of those connections.
What does make me smile are some of the defenders of this design (and I don't even mean just the folks on this board). The same folks who argue that birds eye maple end panels sound better than curly maple are are defending the 47 by saying maybe it's the BAD SOLDER joints that make it sound better. The same folks who can hear the difference between 10-24 screws and 10-32 screws (the 32's obviously do a better job of reducing microphonics) are now saying that having the entire amp board dangling by (bad) solder joints is absolutely no problem.
I absolutely marvel at the mechanical design of many of the clones on this board. The beauty of the design and implimentation is reason enough to admire and aspire to the designs. It is an end in itself. I don't need to convince myself that every aspect of the design affects the sound of the amp. This is true for the beautiful clones by folks like Peter and it is also true for the rudimentary design of the original. |
|
|
| Jamh |
| quote: | Originally posted by KT
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect the opinion of everyone who has posted here.
[...]
I don't mind the workmanship. Looks to me that the solder joints are pretty solid despite being blobby, and I'm really happy with my 25 watt Gaincard (I still pefer it with a tubed line stage, though).
[...]
KT |
KT,
Have you look inside your amp and PS? If so, do you mind sharing some pictures with us? I'd be curious to see if there is a big difference between the gaincard and the shigaraki. |
|
|
| officeboy |
You all call these bad solder joints, but they don't look dry or crusty to me. Nice and bright and smooth, sure there is a lot of solder, but that doesn’t make a joint bad.
Also
Everyone here is so concerned with neatness. Like the guy who posted further up the page his own very neat board. Yes it’s neat and very tidy, did you ever think of the effects on signal with running all your wires so close together?
And as to professional or not.
Someone is making money, AND is Highly regarded in the audio world, and I don’t think that is anyone here complaining about the poor craftsmanship. So who is the professional? |
|
|
| Nuuk |
Just a theory.....
Most of us here have built chip amplifiers based on the original idea of the Gaincard amplifier. And there are even some commercial amplifiers using the same concept.
The beauty of using minimal components is that it makes for very clear sound - the downside is that the circuit is very easy to copy.
Now imagine that you had made the Gaincard and wanted to bring out another model. Perhaps this time you would be thinking that you didn't want people to copy your circuit but how would you stop them?
It's such a simple circuit, all anybody has to do is lift the lid and look inside. Even a newbie could work out what was in there!
Well one way to confuse the would-be copiers would be to hide some components; but where? Well how about under some big lumps of solder? If you used SM components it would be quite easy to do. :smirk: |
|
|
| carlosfm |
I still say: the circuit is basically what's on National's datasheet.:dodgy:
Yes, the idea of the original Gaincard's box and PSU is original. |
|
|
| indoubt |
@ Nuuk,
And what components would that be hiding under a lump of solder? That is, if they must have an effect.
On the other hand they might be sealed in ceramic before being covered with a lump of solder and just these components are adding to the magic.
In areaction on another forum a dealer mentioned that there was no clone that was up to the level of the original. Any of you had experience with comparisons? |
|
|
| KT |
Jamh,
I will post some images of the Power Humpty transformer, but I won't be able to do it until the weekend or the beginning of next week.
Also, I don't have a place to host my photos, so if anyone can help here, that would be great.
I haven't taken apart my 4706 (Gaincard part) and don't plan on doing it. I just don't want to spend a bunch of time messing with it in case reassembly doesn't go as smoothly as planned.
Suffice it to say that the little board that holds the diodes in the Power Humpty is very similar in appearance to those inside the Shigiraki.
I am using the 50w Humpty with my 25w Gaincard. The transformer is massive and of very high quality. Much more massive than the one in the Shigiraki... no comparison here. I look forward to your comments when you see it.
Best,
KT |
|
|
| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by KT
Jamh,
I will post some images of the Power Humpty transformer, but I won't be able to do it until the weekend or the beginning of next week.
Also, I don't have a place to host my photos, so if anyone can help here, that would be great.
I haven't taken apart my 4706 (Gaincard part) and don't plan on doing it. I just don't want to spend a bunch of time messing with it in case reassembly doesn't go as smoothly as planned.
Suffice it to say that the little board that holds the diodes in the Power Humpty is very similar in appearance to those inside the Shigiraki.
I am using the 50w Humpty with my 25w Gaincard. The transformer is massive and of very high quality. Much more massive than the one in the Shigiraki... no comparison here. I look forward to your comments when you see it.
Best,
KT |
I am quite willing to host the pictures on my website, if you e-mail them to me.
--
Brian |
|
|
| karma |
| quote: | Originally posted by KT
Jamh,
I will post some images of the Power Humpty transformer, but I won't be able to do it until the weekend or the beginning of next week.
Also, I don't have a place to host my photos, so if anyone can help here, that would be great.
I haven't taken apart my 4706 (Gaincard part) and don't plan on doing it. I just don't want to spend a bunch of time messing with it in case reassembly doesn't go as smoothly as planned.
Suffice it to say that the little board that holds the diodes in the Power Humpty is very similar in appearance to those inside the Shigiraki.
I am using the 50w Humpty with my 25w Gaincard. The transformer is massive and of very high quality. Much more massive than the one in the Shigiraki... no comparison here. I look forward to your comments when you see it.
Best,
KT |
same here if you need it |
|
|
| KT |
Thanks,
I'll send the photos to Brian since he has his own site and all. Probably by the beginning of next week.
KT |
|
|
| BrianGT |
A gainclone using Fedde's board.
--
Brian |
|
|
| BrianGT |
picture from gaincard
--
Brian |
|
|
| li_gangyi |
| it looks similar doesn't it?? |
|
|
| Frank Berry |
"Like the guy who posted further up the page his own very neat board. Yes it’s neat and very tidy, did you ever think of the effects on signal with running all your wires so close together?"
Yes, I thought about the effects on signal when running my wires so close together. The equalizer has a very low input impedance and a very low output impedance. Under these conditions, crosstalk is not a problem. As a matter of fact, the input and output wires carry audio. All wires to the pots carry only d.c.
"A gainclone using Fedde's board."
This board looks so much better than the crappy board being foisted on the public.
Neatness is important when building electrical equipment ... if only for the ability to duplicate the performance from unit to unit.
I received the following e-mail from an Electrical Engineer and friend:
"Hi Frank,
What a nice looking EQ unit!
My stuff NEVER EVER looks that good. I remember getting to see how everything you built at WQYK-FM and the 50KW on WQYK-AM looked and always marveled at how great and entirely proper the wiring was.
I also read a lot of other posts from this list...
Tell me, aren't you glad you actually have good practical electronics knowledge and skills?
Lots of what I read sounded like voodoo.
Cli4d" |
|
|
| analog_sa |
| quote: | | Lots of what I read sounded like voodoo. |
I seem to like the sound of voodoo and what it does for my listening enjoyment :)
Years ago, being young and optimistic, i would approach each project as something which needs to be built professionally, look tidy and sit inside a box. This produced some of the worst sounding projects i ever listened to. Maybe it was just bad luck (or bad voodoo).
These days i am only sceptical when i see a lovely looking chassis and neat wiring. Unless it is the eleventh permutation of a design what are the chances it will play well from the first build? Like hitting a jackpot?
All my projects, even the ones which start life relatively pretty end up as ugly monsters with multiple additional holes, ugly chunks of unanticipated iron, whole new 'floors' on the chasis and a real nightmare of wiring. Show me a pretty design and i'll show you an unfulfilled sonic potential :)
The GC is an obvious exception though... |
|
|
| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by BrianGT
picture from gaincard |
I'm pretty convinced that they are nowadays but I would like to see a picture with the lid lifted off, which apperently not is easy... |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by BrianGT
picture from gaincard |
Ugly.:gnasher:
Fedde's board is better, doesn't look like made in the kitchen just before dinner.:devily:
But ultimately, I just don't like these boards.:headshot: |
|
|
| Jamh |
Re: pictures from gaincard
The soldering looks much better here than on their integrated amp. Also notice that the copper traces are rounded as much as possible. The components have large contact areas with the copper trace, looks like the end of the resistors are bent in the back and don't just stick out of a hole.
I'm puzzled why they don't use a small circuit board. They could have the exact same traces and holes. I'd also worry about the oxidization of copper. |
|
|
| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jamh
I'm puzzled why they don't use a small circuit board. |
Looks to me like they already are using a small circuit board. What am I overlooking?
| quote: | | They could have the exact same traces and holes. |
Why? They apparently already have a circuit board with the traces and holes right where they want them.
| quote: | | I'd also worry about the oxidization of copper. |
Why? I don't see any problem unless you planned to use it in a marine environment or something.
se |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| It actually seems like copper is not really oxidized. They might had used some sort of conformal coating, or maybe even C37 laquer;) |
|
|
| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
It actually seems like copper is not really oxidized. They might had used some sort of conformal coating, or maybe even C37 laquer;) |
Or maybe not. I've some copper foil here that's been sitting around here for over 10 years which has nothing on it and it looks no worse than the copper on the Gaincard boards. I've got some old projects here that were wired up with bare copper wire that look just as good.
I mean, just how harsh an environment is the typical home? I think much of the fear about copper and oxidation (except where electrical contacts are concerned) is just CuOphobia.
se |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| It certainly depends on environment. My TDA1541 DAC board that was done with bare copper (and spent whole winter in a basement) looks like **** now. I wish I had it protected somehow. |
|
|
| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
It certainly depends on environment. My TDA1541 DAC board that was done with bare copper (and spent whole winter in a basement) looks like **** now. I wish I had it protected somehow. |
Try these. :D
se |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| They don't cause any static discharges, are they?;) |
|
|
| djQUAN |
| basements are probably humid and have some corrosive substances in the air. not very sure though. just a thought. |
|
|
| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
They don't cause any static discharges, are they?;) |
No, that's HER job. :)
se |
|
|
| carlmart |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
But ultimately, I just don't like these boards. |
What are "these boards" exactly?
Carlos |
|
|
| Blues |
| Here's my take on this GCard/ GClone board comparison. My bet is a DIYer opened his GCard and switched his GClone in the GCard chassis then sold it keeping the GCard in his beautifully handmade DIY GClone chassis. So who ever owns that 47 Labs GainCard actually owns a GainClone. You've been had my man!:cannotbe: |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlmart
What are "these boards" exactly?
Carlos |
To avoid repeating the word "PCB" in the same sentence, I used "board".:D |
|
|
| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
Fedde's board is better, doesn't look like made in the kitchen just before dinner |
Hmm. Yet it is made from a material that after etching and with non-sealed edges is very hygroscopic and makes for "bad" sound. Is that what makes the board "better"?
Sayonara |
|
|
| moamps |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
Hmm. Yet it is made from a material that after etching and with non-sealed edges is very hygroscopic and makes for "bad" sound. Is that what makes the board "better"? |
Hi,
Fedde's pcb is IMO standard quality FR4 material (post 112). "Original" pcb (post 113) looks like "hygroscopic" pertinax.
Regards |
|
|
| carlosfm |
I meant better looking.:D
If I had a digital camera I'd post a pic of my PCBs (LM3886).
BIGC, with (OPA627 of course;) ) op-amp and regulators for it.
The PCB is (at least looking at the pic) not bigger than the Gaincard's ones.
And of course, I can use the op-amp (along with re regs) or not.;)
But I like it more buffered.
:angel:
BTW this is the best sound I can get from any type of GC I tried.
Only didn't try valves.
But this is pointless, as many people are doing it much prettier and better than the Gaincard.
It's just my oppinion that 47 Labs' amps should have a completely sealed box, like Swatch watches.:devily: |
|
|
| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
It certainly depends on environment. My TDA1541 DAC board that was done with bare copper (and spent whole winter in a basement) looks like **** now. I wish I had it protected somehow. |
That is scary and very true for a number of places in the world. In Denmark one have to be carefull sealing a circuit, but if not sealed its not like the whole thing goes bad over night.
In Ventspils/Latvia, a town on the west coast, one actually have to take special care about anything made of metal, the wind blows salt in over the town from the sea. Ive seen anodized vaccuum window frames give in to the salt :(
Magura:) |
|
|
| rjm |
Perhaps the only thing that has changed in four years is 47 labs isn't so worried about pictures of the internals being published.
Well, maybe now a few more people on the "47 labs" side.
Look, $1750 is what it costs. Anyone is free to audition it against anything else costing as much and decide for themselves if its worth it. Worth it, however, is by how it sounds and, to a lesser extent, features and aesthetics. Seems to me it should be quite competitive, as it has a niche market largely to itself in terms of being something small and rather fashionable - for those not looking for yet-another-19"-rack-black-box with so-thick-I-must-be-compensating-for-something faceplate.
But as a commercial product that's really for the consumer of high end audio to come to terms with and nothing to do with the DIY. So it's off topic in this forum. Besides its really really really boring. I can't beleive I just read 9 pages of these ******* posts.
More useful were those 15% of posts that commented that hey that's a pretty neat little design, and not at all hard for any DIYer to implement. Further, we might want to take a second look at the LM1875 (I've always found it a bit thin compared to its gutsier bigger brother, but...) and research a little more in sticking a fairly big electrolytic (47uF or so) across the power supply rails.
Those of you not into this already might want to wise up about the jacketless caps thing. It really does work. Then theres all that vibration stuff.
The shigaraki is carefully designed with every part and every dimension to sound good, with the caveat that the solid aluminum casing and cut-core transformer of the Gaincard was left out due to cost constraints.
So why not stop carping on about how cheap and messy everything looks like and instead try it out for yourself and see if it sounds better or worse than "audiophile approved" parts and methodology.
Shouldn't it count for something that those of us who have looked into the 47 labs design most closely are the ones expressing the most admiration, rather than the other way around?
rjm |
|
|
| carlosfm |
rjm, although I think the PCB and the internal assembly of the whole thing looks really bad, I also think it's a good design.
I don't like that volume pot too, it's too bad.
This is my oppinion, just that.
But I like your post, it's very good indeed.:up:
And yes, in audio things cost what they sound.
:angel: |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
And yes, in audio things cost what they sound.
:angel: |
I'd rather say: they cost what people are willing to pay.;)
What is BIGC? |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
What is BIGC? |
Buffered Inverted GC.;)
Non-inverted op-amp buffer before an inverted LM3886 (in this case).
:cool: |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| Do you find 3886 better sounding than 3875? |
|
|
| carlosfm |
I started with the LM3875.
But happens that I have difficult speakers (Epos 11) and the LM3886 works much better for me.
Soundwise, it's the same, believe it or not.
High-end.;) |
|
|
| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
| quote: | Originally posted by moamps
Fedde's pcb is IMO standard quality FR4 material (post 112). "Original" pcb (post 113) looks like "hygroscopic" pertinax.
|
I am familiar with both materials and their behaviour. Unless you spring for the PTFE board you will find pertinax the superior material in practice. Try it, make a circuit once on FR4, once on Pertinax and once hardwired, then listen.
Sayonara |
|
|
| KT |
Hi,
Is pertinax a generic name for that brownish board material, or is it made to a certain spec by a certain company?
Thanks,
KT |
|
|
| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
| quote: | Originally posted by KT
Is pertinax a generic name for that brownish board material, or is it made to a certain spec by a certain company? |
I suspect that it used to be a specific brand but tends to be used generically these days (like the term "velcro" - I once had a request to replace the term "velcro" by "generic hook & loop fastener" on web-pages as velcro is trademark and I was infringing!!!!).
Not all of the pressed wood and resin PCB materials are equally good BTW.
Sayonara |
|
|
| Jamh |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Looks to me like they already are using a small circuit board. What am I overlooking?
Why? They apparently already have a circuit board with the traces and holes right where they want them.
Why? I don't see any problem unless you planned to use it in a marine environment or something.
se |
steve,
We are fortunate in Sacramento with very low humidity. Bit closer to the coast this could become a problem. As for circuit board, I meant something like Brian's so that you can speed up the manufacture. But like I said earlier, I dig their sense of esthetics. |
|
|
| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jamh
We are fortunate in Sacramento with very low humidity. Bit closer to the coast this could become a problem. As for circuit board, I meant something like Brian's so that you can speed up the manufacture. But like I said earlier, I dig their sense of esthetics. |
Yeah, we're not as bad as places like the deep south, but by the same token not as dry as places like the southwest. The humidity here can get sufficiently high though that our evaporative cooler is little more effective than a fan, at which point I don't feel too fortunate. :)
Not sure a more formal circuit board would speed up production. Since the innards of the 47 Labs stuff just screams "cheap" I'd guess they decided it would be less epxensive to just cobble the boards themselves rather than pay to have more formal boards made.
se |
|
|
| Frank Berry |
"Since the innards of the 47 Labs stuff just screams "cheap"
Amen!
There is "fair profit" and there is "gouging".
47 Labs is gouging. |
|
|
|
