| leadbelly |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
Available again brand new from Radio Shack Canada. They even lowered the price to $18 CAD each (vrs $16.50 for the TB).
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Must admit I was shocked to read that but there it be:
http://www.radioshack.ca/estore/Pro...alog=RadioShack |
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| markp |
| There is one in Saskatoon! There are three in all on B.C. |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by markp
There is one in Saskatoon! There are three in all on B.C. |
3 of what?? Tempests?
dave |
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| markp |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
3 of what?? Tempests?
dave |
No the RS 4" drivers we've been talking about in this thread. |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by markp
No the RS 4" drivers we've been talking about in this thread. |
Oh... actual stock in the stores, i get it... i always order them at least 10 at a time direct from the website (actually by phone since the website breaks -- at least the last time i used it). I have at least 20 of them in stock :)
Tim, i haven't measured my last batch yet (and i haven't seen any of the new ones, so don't know if they are the same as the last batch -- purple Canadian boxes)... i'll get around to ordering some sometime (even just to encorage them to keep em coming).
I think you get 5% off if you use your Radio Shack card (a Citibank MC now)
dave |
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| Timn8ter |
| ...or I could trade some RS stereo pots for 1197s:D |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Timn8ter
...or I could trade some RS stereo pots for 1197s:D |
Ahhh... motivation :)
I'm sure that can be arranged.
dave |
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| gmilitano |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
Oh... actual stock in the stores, i get it... i always order them at least 10 at a time direct from the website (actually by phone since the website breaks -- at least the last time i used it). I have at least 20 of them in stock :)
dave |
Hi Dave,
Can I ask why you keep so many of these drivers on hand?
I have been looking at your website and I like the look (and cost) of the various BD Pipe projects.
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/FALL/bd-pipes.html
In particular, I like the look of the FE103A Pipes and the Red Pipes. I'm interested in these kits and I'd be looking to use 40-1197 drivers. The speakers would be driven by a low wattage (8W max) tube amp.
I have a few questions, in particular with regards to the specifications of these pipes. What sort of power handleing do the pipes have and what is the frequency range? Given that they would be driven by a low power amp, what is the sensitivity of the pipes?
Any comments would be appreciated.
Cheers,
GM. |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by gmilitano
Can I ask why you keep so many of these drivers on hand? |
I sell an occasional speaker and many of them use 1197s, so when it looked like they were gonna get scarce i stocked up. Used up about 50 so far.
| quote: | I have been looking at your website and I like the look (and cost) of the various BD Pipe projects.
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/FALL/bd-pipes.html
In particular, I like the look of the FE103A Pipes and the Red Pipes. I'm interested in these kits and I'd be looking to use 40-1197 drivers. The speakers would be driven by a low wattage (8W max) tube amp. |
The wooden pipes with the FE103As now house tweaked 1197s and a "friend" wants them, but he is a bit of a flake, and tey may sit in my living room for awhile. I have an architect client (i do their Macs) and he wanted to hear some of the speakers i had built. One day i had the red pipes in the car (just painted mdf), so i left them with him -- his wife really liked how they looked, and they both liked how they sounded so they wouldn't let me have them back -- has us build another set for the rears, a center channel, and we used the 12" Fosters in his old speakers to build him a push-push sub -- all in red. He also upgraded his electronics to an NAD HT receiver... he likes impressing friends with it.
| quote: | | I have a few questions, in particular with regards to the specifications of these pipes. What sort of power handleing do the pipes have and what is the frequency range? Given that they would be driven by a low power amp, what is the sensitivity of the pipes? |
The BD pipe is probably not an optimal design for a pr of 1197s, it was designed for ACR FE103s using the guess & by golly method -- we just sort of fell into it, my cabinet guy had the boxes done before i could blink and they do work well in the box. GM has done a smaller ML TL that we cribbed for centres that is probably better (we've never had a chance to build a set of mains with this design).
With 1197s the FR is probably 75-80 Hz up to about 10k, then you need to bring a tweeter in with a cap (2 uF on an 8 ohm tweet). There are a number of inexpensive Ts that work well (some less expensive than the postage would be) I expect GMs design would be about the same.
Eficeincy i stimate in about 91 db, a 4.5 W EL84 SEP starts running out of steam at high levels (in my large room) but is superb for normal listing levels. Recent indications are that series wiring may be better sonically than parallel.
dave |
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| CrisTUFR |
I realize that the speaker will definitely be "more than loud enough", but is there a possibility of blowing the speaker by turning the volume too high (either accidentally, or by being a showoff)?
I don't want to spend the cash on 4 drivers, and then spend more cash to get other drivers later. I want to get "the right" drivers the first time, and go from there. :)
Chris |
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| CrisTUFR |
| quote: | Originally posted by Timn8ter
If you're looking for very high SPLs then you should consider another driver, however, if you're looking to drive them at normal listening levels they can handle it ok. I use TBs in my HT with a 100W per channel SS receiver and haven't blown one up yet. If you put two drivers per enclosure you should be fine. |
I think I will definitely have to go for the two-to-a-cabinet approach so that I can squeeze a bit more range out of them. Also, it's not like the drivers will break the bank to muck around with anyway. ;)
From there, if I'm able to build decent-sounding speakers on my own for the office, my wife will allow me to build all the speakers for our surround sound setup at home (since she'd prefer to just drop the cash on ready-made "safe" speakers).
I can sympathize with her attitude right now, since most people just don't think you can reproduce the sound of a "good" (read: expensive) speaker on your own. Also, I've only just recently built things on my own (gainclone) that actually work "as advertised". ;)
I've got a bunch of birch veneer plywood, a fully-functional wood shop, and a small amount of cash to spend on building a set to prove 'em all wrong. :D |
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| planet10 |
Power rating for the 1197 is rated at 4W for what it is worth. So 2 is going to be 8W. I regularily use mine with 100W and have never smoked any. Power rating is really an overrated & misunderstood specification. I usually just ignore it.
dave |
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| Timn8ter |
True, true. For an in depth discusson on Watts = Quality see
Watts = Quality? |
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| gmilitano |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
The wooden pipes with the FE103As now house tweaked 1197s
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built. One day i had the red pipes in the car (just painted mdf),
Eficeincy i stimate in about 91 db, a 4.5 W EL84 SEP starts running out of steam at high levels (in my large room) but is superb for normal listing levels. Recent indications are that series wiring may be better sonically than parallel.
dave |
Thanks for the info, but I still have a few more questions...
Sticking with the pipes (wooden and red), do you have drawing with measurements for them? Do you use a filter or anything on the 40-1197 drivers? How are they connected, series or parallell and are they in phase?
The prototype drawing you posted has several similarities for the AllegraAudio BV-1 (minus the taper). What is the benefit of placing the drivers back to back? Also, do you hook them up in phase? Is the horizontal location of the driver critical? I would prefer to have it a sitting ear level.
Is more information regarding the 40-1197 not available (i.e. freq. responce curves, Re .....)
Cheers |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by gmilitano
Sticking with the pipes (wooden and red), do you have drawing with measurements for them? Do you use a filter or anything on the 40-1197 drivers? How are they connected, series or parallell and are they in phase?
The prototype drawing you posted has several similarities for the AllegraAudio BV-1 (minus the taper). What is the benefit of placing the drivers back to back? Also, do you hook them up in phase? Is the horizontal location of the driver critical? I would prefer to have it a sitting ear level.
Is more information regarding the 40-1197 not available (i.e. freq. responce curves, Re .....)
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BD-Pipes plans
http://pmillett.addr.com/tqwp.htm
Drivers connected in parallel or series & in phase (i am starting to get some feedback that, particularily with tube amps, 16 ohms makes a biggere difference than i would have guessed -- i have yet to experiment).
No filters, just "mechanical" tweaks. Ductseal, puzzlecoat, woolfelt, dustcapectomy, phase plugs... the ductseal is a required tweak.
The ptototype is probably similar to Tim's pipes because, he says, he has been inpired by my preaching :)
Back-to-back makes them CRT friendly and gives optimal push-push coupling (inproved downward dynamic range, reduced transmission of energy to the box). In phase. Driver distance from the end of the pipes is critical. Ajust height by changing the length of the "legs (everything below the port is purly to get the driver up to the right height).
dave |
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| gmilitano |
On that link, it shows a filter, but it is labelled FE103, should I be using that with the 1197? I would be interested in adding a tweeter to this design. Would this be an improvement on the high end? Going along on with your original post, I would be looking at a first order high pass of about 10 kHz. Furthermore, the 40-1030 does not seem to be available anymore would the 10CM (4") WOOFER 40-1022 be an appropriate replacement?
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
The ptototype is probably similar to Tim's pipes because, he says, he has been inpired by my preaching :)
Back-to-back makes them CRT friendly and gives optimal push-push coupling (inproved downward dynamic range, reduced transmission of energy to the box). In phase.
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I like this design too. Do I need to experiment with insultation? I believe Tim insulated the upper portion of his. If I was to add a tweeter, does it need to be isolated from the inside of the box?
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
Driver distance from the end of the pipes is critical. Ajust height by changing the length of the "legs (everything below the port is purly to get the driver up to the right height).
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Obviously! I dunno what I was thinking?
Ok, with regards to the numbers, the link Tim gave showed an efficiency of about 90.5 db. By using two drivers, what would be the net efficency? I imagine I would need to know this to pick an appropriate tweeter.
I think it is clear that the low end of the 1197 is about 80Hz. How much is this value lowered by the enclosure or by the back to back setup. What I am asking is what would be the estimated frequency responce and would a subwoofer be required.
Cheers,
GM. |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by gmilitano
On that link, it shows a filter, but it is labelled FE103, should I be using that with the 1197? |
There is an optional filter, i like the speaker better without it.
| quote: | | I would be interested in adding a tweeter to this design. Would this be an improvement on the high end? Going along on with your original post, I would be looking at a first order high pass of about 10 kHz. |
The 1197 isn't as extended as the 103/103A/108. The speaker sounds OK without, but you really notice it is missing if you remove it.
Here is a tweeter i've found to work particularily well.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=3096034842
| quote: | | Furthermore, the 40-1030 does not seem to be available anymore would the 10CM (4") WOOFER 40-1022 be an appropriate replacement? |
I've only used the same speaker as in the front, i think the 1022 is a bit down efficieny-wise -- i'd just use 2 1197s per box.
| quote: | | I like this design too. Do I need to experiment with insultation? I believe Tim insulated the upper portion of his. If I was to add a tweeter, does it need to be isolated from the inside of the box? |
No... the designated amount of stuffing just fit into the box.
| quote: | | Ok, with regards to the numbers, the link Tim gave showed an efficiency of about 90.5 db. By using two drivers, what would be the net efficency? I imagine I would need to know this to pick an appropriate tweeter. |
Tim's uses 2 drivers 90.5-91 dB is about right.
| quote: | | I think it is clear that the low end of the 1197 is about 80Hz. How much is this value lowered by the enclosure or by the back to back setup. What I am asking is what would be the estimated frequency responce and would a subwoofer be required. |
Listen to them, if you want subteranean bass you will need woofers (modern day drivers designed for sub use, usually don't have enuff top end to blend well).
dave |
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| gmilitano |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
No... the designated amount of stuffing just fit into the box.
Tim's uses 2 drivers 90.5-91 dB is about right.
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Thanks for the info Dave.
With regards to the stuffing on the proto-1197-ml-tl, there are no details regarding stuffing.
If the individual drivers are about 90.5 dB, does using two drivers increase the efficiency?
You also mentioned that the height of the enclosure is critical. How is this height determined? Is it based on experimentation, or can software be used to model the enclosure. I have been playing with speaker workshop .. is this approprite or do I need something different?
Thanks,
GM. |
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| Timn8ter |
| The old blue box 1197s were of 90db efficiency, the newer ones are less. Two drivers in parallel are usually calculated as having a +6db increase. |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by gmilitano
With regards to the stuffing on the proto-1197-ml-tl, there are no details regarding stuffing. |
0.36 lbs
| quote: | | does using two drivers increase the efficiency? |
Sort of
| quote: | You also mentioned that the height of the enclosure is critical. How is this height determined? Is it based on experimentation, or can software be used to model the enclosure. I have been playing with speaker workshop .. is this approprite or do I need something different?
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GM (the other one) simmed that box using Martin Kings sw. The driver distance from the end of the pipe is critical because that is what causes the cabceling of the 1st ripple.
dave |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Timn8ter
The old blue box 1197s were of 90db efficiency, the newer ones are less. Two drivers in parallel are usually calculated as having a +6db increase. |
I see Tim, that you are still in the grasp of that myth... 2 drivers gives 3 dB.
Differences in amp power due to change in impedance, may (but rarely) give you another 3 dB of volume.
dave |
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| Timn8ter |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
I see Tim, that you are still in the grasp of that myth... 2 drivers gives 3 dB.
Differences in amp power due to change in impedance, may (but rarely) give you another 3 dB of volume.
dave |
Thanks Dave. The education continues. |
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| Timn8ter |
| quote: | Originally posted by gmilitano
Does anyone have any experience with the PE Pioneer extended range driver?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/psho...tnumber=269-568
How would this driver compare to the 1197. Based on the vauge 1197 specs, the pioneer seems to have a higer resonant frequency and a lower efficiency.
Any comments ... nice price on the pioneer driver. |
Not even close. Here's the FR on a raw 1197. |
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| gmilitano |
| quote: | Originally posted by Timn8ter
Not even close. Here's the FR on a raw 1197. |
Wow, the 1197 is much much nicer! I guess you do get what you pay for.
Did you measure that response yourself?
When using the 1197, do you typically low pass at 9k to avoid that peak between 9 and 14kHz
Cheers,
GM. |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by gmilitano
When using the 1197, do you typically low pass at 9k to avoid that peak between 9 and 14kHz
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Be intesting to see if a tweaked driver has that peak ... at any rate it is only there on axis... if you don't point the privers directly at your head, it isn't going to be s big problem.
dave |
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| gmilitano |
| quote: | Originally posted by Timn8ter
That graph is from the Single Driver Website and is an untreated driver. Better response is possible by treating the cone, damping the frame and using a phase plug. |
Ok, this is getting more complicated than I thought.
How do you "treat" a cone? Do you mean something like waterproofing?
Is damping the frame is using that sealant (ductseal) that Dave mentioned.
What is a phase plug?
I hope I am not annoying you fellows.
GM. |
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| markp |
| A phaseplug is a extension of the pole piece that sticks out instead of a dust cap. It is ususally cone shaped but not always. It can be made of rubber, metal, or wood, etc.. and is used to shape the response of a driver on and off axis. |
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| Timn8ter |
| Should we start a thread about the venerable 40-1197? |
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| Timn8ter |
I thought I should start a thread about this driver as an off shoot of the Tangband W3-871S thread. There were some questions presented that were off topic for that thread. I hope Planet10 kicks in with some info too as he has a fair amount of experience with this driver. This is the other thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...&threadid=33636
Many users of the 1197 have used Dammar thinned with turpentine to treat the paper cone. Other treatments mentioned have been "puzzlecoat" or Weldbond thinned with water. The frame is stamped and can cause resonance so a minimum of some modeling clay on the frame just above the magnet helps. Some brave souls have placed felt on the inside of the basket legs. Removing the dust cap and installing a phase plug can help HF response. |
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| gmilitano |
| quote: | Originally posted by Timn8ter
Removing the dust cap and installing a phase plug can help HF response. |
With regards to the phase plug, is this a good idea? Given the cost of the plugs, would the money not be better spent on a tweeter which would help the HF response and extend the response to 20 kHz. |
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| Timn8ter |
| For me, the phase plug smoothed out the response. Adding a tweeter wouldn't help this. The only time I miss the upper response is if I A-B with something, for example, side by side comparison with the Jordan JX92S. Dollar for dollar a tweaked 1197 is hard to beat. A good tweeter would probably cost more than the 1197 or the phase plugs. |
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| SY |
| What did you do for a phase plug? Balsa and a lathe? |
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| gmilitano |
| quote: | Originally posted by Timn8ter
For me, the phase plug smoothed out the response. Adding a tweeter wouldn't help this. The only time I miss the upper response is if I A-B with something, for example, side by side comparison with the Jordan JX92S. Dollar for dollar a tweaked 1197 is hard to beat. A good tweeter would probably cost more than the 1197 or the phase plugs. |
I was thinking to cross over at 9kHz to avoid that peak. Dave also mentioned that suitable tweeter will cost more to ship than the cost of the tweeter.
To me this make sense, you avoid the peak and extend the range. is my logic flawed?
GM. |
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| Timn8ter |
| It might be good to keep all the factors in mind. We're talking about a driver than costs $18CA for a new one, I paid $30US for four older ones delivered. As good as they are they can't be expected to perform as well as a Jordan. If you're going to spend $50 or more by the time you add a tweeter and crossover you're going to be better off buying a Fostex FE166. |
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| planet10 |
As far as i'm conncerned, the most important improvement with a phase-plug is the removal of (most of) the last vestiges of te upper midrange "honk" (ie male voices) that all the variations of this driver suffer from (in comparison to a tweaked FE103A, you can even hear that the FE108 has this).
A side effect is improved high frequency dispersion -- you do get a small bit of extension, but that is not the important thing.
dave |
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