| Raka |
| From the description, is about the same ps I built. |
|
|
| earsandeyes |
Did you post a thread on this DIY build one?
Thanks |
|
|
| Raka |
| Search for "change in frequency mains". |
|
|
| carlosfm |
engineers will (re) discover an old and better technology for the TT, ditching the crappy belts and the noisy motors:
Quartz Locked Loop Direct-Drive.:devily: :yikes:
:D |
|
|
| Raka |
| Carlos Prophet, have you compared your DD to any other belt drive? |
|
|
| carlosfm |
Of course.:D
The Rega P3 sounds undynamic to me.
And Rega TTs (and many others) use a slightly faster speed than the 33 1/3 to account for the belt getting older.:whazzat:
And that also gives a false sense of detail.
This is shocking to me.
Is there any precision here?
If DD wasn't better, then why would all decent tape decks (including Nakamichi) used them?
They massively reduced wow&flutter using quartz-locked direct-drive motors.
Isn't speed stability important?
People are paying 1k+ Euros for a PSU for their TT to get speed stability anywhere near a good DD TT.:eek: :bawling:
Raka, until the mid-80's some very serious DD TTs were made (yes, much better than mine:D ), even by today's standards.
But audiophiles like to pay thousands for a crappy belt and an ultra-expensive PSU, motor...
BTW, belts don't last long, you know?
They loose their properties fast.
Precision with a belt?:dodgy:
I said purists will kill me.:D
But can anyone prove me wrong?
Just put a good DD motor on Linn LP12 and give it a go.:cool: |
|
|
| carlosfm |
Spend thousands on a PSU and see if you can get specs like this (my TT).
Also, look at the 10kg weight comparing with the cheap and suspensionless construction of the Regas. |
|
|
| analog_sa |
Carlos
You may wish to slightly broaden your listening horizons before proclaiming winners. The spec sheet you posted is exactly as meaningless as that of any Pioneer amp from 1974. Which is not to say there is anything inherently wrong with DD. It's just much more difficult to achieve outstanding sound using it.
Some of the most atrocious sounds in my home have come courtesy of the DD crowd darling - the Trio L07. A Dual 701 otoh offers amazingly good sound for the money.
Regarding the PS electronics it's obvious that a DD system is a lot more complex and finicky. It's only market forces which create the >1000 euros synchronous power supplies.
Using a Rega as a belt drive reference? Please give us a break.
Have you ever heard a good idler wheeler? |
|
|
| UrSv |
| That heatsink on the back of the PSU looks just like an ILP amplifier module... |
|
|
| Raka |
Carlos, I'm not saying you are not right, I simply asked.:angel:
Yes, speed stability is important, but those wow and flutter are like THD values, I think they don't tell the whole story, and more if they are defined only with figures, without test description.
Wow and flutter are much less important than the effect of the excentrycity of the vinyl disc and the ellipticity, the warps, and the tonearm resonance, and a lot of other factors. It's important, of course, but overrated IMO
BTW, fitting a DD in an LP12 is no way a good idea. Maybe a DC one is, but not a direct drive.
Belts are not precision instruments, but I don't think they are the weakest link of the chain.
My PSU is not ultra expensive, by the way.
One question: How are the noise levels of the motors used in direct drive? Why are they less noisier than a standard configuration? |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by analog_sa
Using a Rega as a belt drive reference? Please give us a break.
Have you ever heard a good idler wheeler? |
I only gave an example, because my TT is not (I know) of the Trio league or even LP12 league.
Anyway, I used this example because when I say this same words (my Technics beats a Rega P3) some hardcore audiophiles I know laugh at me.:clown:
Go figure.
They are so snobish that they don't even whant to listen.
Japanese is **** is still a misconception.:angel: |
|
|
| Werner |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
Anyway, I used this example because when I say this same words (my Technics beats a Rega P3) some hardcore audiophiles I know laugh at me.:clown:
|
Ha. I tend to call those right-wing audiotypes. Dogmatists who live
by their bibles: the entire output of the eighties UK audio press, and
present-day Stereophool. They read how they have to perceive sound.
Plenty of tasty Japanese stuff. Too bad the big ones (and tiny big ones like Micro Seiki) have withdrawn from the turntable scene when CD arrived. Otherwise the whole amateurish Linn/Rega/followers
thing might never have happened. |
|
|
| Raka |
I'm happy you enjoy your tt.
Why did you say all not DD systems are noisy? |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by analog_sa
Carlos
Have you ever heard a good idler wheeler? |
You ask me that because you don't know me, I understand.
I was born in the vinyl era, grew up listening to lots of vinyl and was never convinced about the "new and perfect CD sond".
The first time I heard CD was in 1983 and the public's claps of a classical live concert seamed like rain.
Very strange experience indeed.
I only bought my first CDP in 1990.
My father was a technitian, he repaired turntables too.
I always had TV sets and hi-fi all over my house.
My father had Duals and a PE turntable (never seen this brand again), which I think was a german brand, and had an idler weel, Garrard-style.
Very good at the time. |
|
|
| GUILHERME |
Ola' Carlos.
I'm happy to see you're enjoying your TT so much, but a couple of things you should note.
First, in audio, as in many engineering fields, sometimes there's more than one way to achieve an end. If money is no object both DD and BD can be made very good. For example, the Rockport Sirius III is DD. OTOH, VPI's top models continue to be BD, and they claim wow&flutter bellow measurability.
When price *is* an object, designers have to make compromises, and maybe there is where BD gets the lead. The crappy belt, is in fact a very good and cheap way to decouple the platter from the motor making the platter itself very quiet. Also, DB synchronous systems don't rely on constant speed adjustments to keep speed stable and if they're allowed to have the same "amount" of electronics your TT has, their speed can be very stable and acurate too.
| quote: | | Spend thousands on a PSU and see if you can get specs like this (my TT). |
If you're talking about wow&flutter, yes I can. And it didn't cost me "thousands".
J.Guilherme |
|
|
| peranders |
I have an old JVC LJ45 (?) which is DD and the mass of the platter is concentrated at the outer end. The wow can be seen at the strobo patterns, circa 0.5 Hz, small puffs... but this can't be heard!
Garanteed wow is below 0.1-0.05% don't remember exactly. I have from time time though about to calculate how much wow you can see. The patterns moves max 5 mm, clearly visible. 5 mm in 2 sec, how much is that? |
|
|
| analog_sa |
| quote: | | The wow can be seen at the strobo patterns, circa 0.5 Hz, small puffs... but this can't be heard! |
This may be relevant to the video forum as you're obviously not blind... |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by GUILHERME
Ola' Carlos.
First, in audio, as in many engineering fields, sometimes there's more than one way to achieve an end. If money is no object both DD and BD can be made very good. |
Of course.:D
That's why I mentioned the LP12, although I really think that this thing is seriously overpriced these days.
When money was no object for vinyl owners (back in 1979) Sony:eek: made a cost-no-object, seminal Direct-Drive TT.
I don't remember it's model.
You alone couldn't lift it, you would need help.
The DD motor had a torke like a washing mashine.:eek: :D
They made very few units.
Sometime ago Hi-Fi World made an article on this TT.
Now getting back to the real world, Technics' first generation DD TTs were much simpler (not nearly as many electronics as later models), were completely manual and came without an arm fitted.
These were the good ones.:cool:
Raka, my Technics has a Direct-Drive brushless DC motor.:cool: |
|
|
| Raka |
Yes, But why did you say a DD has less motor noise than a non DD one? As far as I know, the DD stands for direct drive, that is the motor shaft rotates together with the spindle in the same axis. I suppose the DD has nothing to do with the motor noise itself, am I right? So the DD is the way the motor is connected to the shaft, not hte motor itself, right?
Obviously the motor has to be sized according to the load it will see (electrically and mechanically).
I still can't see why a DD system has to have less motor noise than a DC motor in a BD system. |
|
|
| carlosfm |
Raka, google a little and find some information on Technic's history with DD motors, their invention was innovative in the late 60s.
You should find plenty of information.
It's not a normal motor, and it's not that the motor centrally is connected to the spindle.
In fact, on my TT, part of the motor resides on the platter. |
|
|
| Raka |
I hate to insist, but still can't understand why THE MOTOR used for DD system, has to be more quiet than just THE MOTOR used for BD systems. Electrically I can't find a reason, and mechanically, it has to have thrust bearings in the axial direction, while the BD systems "only" have to have radial thrust bearings.
Yes, I know the platter is integral part of the rotor, that what my poor english tried to explain :clown: , but I'll search my answer, anyway. |
|
|
| carlosfm |
The majority of the people I talk about this doesn't even know how a good DD TT works.
I soon find out that those audioplile snobs I talked about are laughing of things they have no idea how it works.
But they defend the belt like there's no tomorrow, not caring and not kwnowing how a good DD TT works.
There's NO CONTACT between the platter and the TT other than the spindle.
A guy I know called me lunatic, this is not possible.:D
Magnetic fields make the motor/platter move.
Raka, read this and enjoy.
http://de.geocities.com/bc1a69/why_eng.html
:angel: |
|
|
| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by Raka
I hate to insist, but still can't understand why THE MOTOR used for DD system, has to be more quiet than just THE MOTOR used for BD systems. Electrically I can't find a reason, and mechanically, it has to have thrust bearings in the axial direction, while the BD systems "only" have to have radial thrust bearings.
Yes, I know the platter is integral part of the rotor, that what my poor english tried to explain :clown: , but I'll search my answer, anyway. |
Hello Raka,
The noise of the Direct Drive motor is at much lower frequencies and hence inaudible.......:idea: |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by Elso Kwak
Hello Raka,
The noise of the Direct Drive motor is at much lower frequencies and hence inaudible.......:idea: |
Hi Elso,
Do you have clocks for Direct-Drive turntables?:D |
|
|
| stefanobilliani |
I have just bought a Pioneer DD turntable on ebay. Well , I asked some questions at the seller and he told me that while he would prefear the choice of a BD TT for some reasons (in the case it was the Pioneer PL 112D) , it is true that the DD TT are absolutely quiet in opposition to what some specialized reviews have told in the last 20 years. He told me also that his "personal TT" are 30+ years old and are all pulley-drived. In addiction it was told me that the 20+ years old Technics and Denon DDTT was beautiful machines.
I believe that if a decent DD TT sounds somewhat strange in comparison to a BD, the reason can be found in the quality of the crystal oscillator .Exactly like in CD players ... with the difference that a TT can be superior...
::cool: |
|
|
| Raka |
| quote: | Originally posted by Elso Kwak
Hello Raka,
The noise of the Direct Drive motor is at much lower frequencies and hence inaudible.......:idea: |
Thanks for your reply. :) |
|
|
| Werner |
| quote: | Originally posted by Elso Kwak
The noise of the Direct Drive motor is at much lower frequencies and hence inaudible.......:idea: |
I wish it were that simple, but of course it isn't. Both DD and BD are pretty awful compromises, each with their own specific set
of pros and cons.
But while both DD and BD can be made to perform very well, it is entirely outside of the possibilities of cottage industries to do so.
And yes, compared to Japan Inc. the British and USA high-end TT industry was cottage level in their early days (they were startups then), and still are cottage level today (as Japan Inc has withdrawn and the audience seemingly is happy to put up with simple designs that require little NRE costs). Which nicely explains the proliferation of BD. (*)
Or still in other words: literally anyone can build a high-end BD tuntable from scratch with relatively little financial investment. But try to build a clone of a big Micro ...
(* For those of you who find that shoking or blasphemous, note that I am closely affiliated with a renowned BD turntable manufacturer. Also note that I am known to have a realistic view of, er, reality. [**])
[** Well, sometimes, that is.] |
|
|
| sreten |
Hmmmm......
DD's have never troubled the 3 point suspended subchassis
designers of this world, presumably because trying to compare
motor performance is pointless, as the belt drive motor is by
definition decoupled, a DD by definition is not.
Solid plinth belt drives I'm no fan of at all, might as well go DD.
I'm no fan of lightweight platter DD's (or DC servo belt drives)
that have aggressive loop gain in the speed control feedback,
gives good measured results on steady tones but poor speed
stability (dynamic wow) with LP's dynamic drag on the stylus.
Personally I'm a diehard 3 point suspension man, but having
said that I'm appalled at the current fad for DC motors, as far
as I can tell it was started by the last supplier of quality AC
synchronous motors withdrawing the product, forcing the
manafacturers to use DC motors.
A good solid (heavy) DD is a good investment, fit decent feet
and replace the usual japocrap tonearm with something decent,
makes a nice sounding turntable, but not IMO fantastic, that
is because motor performance is not the only criteria.
:) sreten. |
|
|
| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
Hi Elso,
Do you have clocks for Direct-Drive turntables?:D |
Calling Charlie-Alpha-Romeo-Lima-Oscar-Sierra-Foxtrot-Mike!
Do you read me?
The Technics SP10 already has a Colpitts oscillator. This is absolutely OK.
Stefanobilliani., A stubborn myth among audiophiles is that a beltdriven turntable has better sound than a direct dirive.
I made the experiment many years ago comparing a Thorens with my Dual 701. On some records I heard a difference using the same cartridge in favor of the Dual. This proved to be due to the better arm of the Dual. On that particular piano record was a non-flat portion ginving some surface flutter. The Dual with its decoupled counterweight handled is better.
I once asked my boss what he did prefer. He answered belt drive. I asked why, better sound?
No, he said, we can sell more belts. Has a good profit margin! |
|
|
| carlosfm |
... read those links I posted.
Very entertaining.
Or print it all.
Very nice bathroom reading.:cool: |
|
|
| Werner |
| quote: | Originally posted by sreten
DD's have never troubled the 3 point suspended subchassis
designers of this world,
|
Well, there were a couple. But either stratospherically priced, or mere design exercises such as the Gale.
| quote: |
motor performance is pointless, as the belt drive motor is by
definition decoupled, a DD by definition is not. |
DD by definition is coupled, I agree. But you can't say that BD is by definition decoupled. In the case of an elastic belt you have two rotating inertias, one of them subject to a rippling torque, both inertias connected with a spring. In the case of a solid belt, you have unidirectional transfer of torque between the inertias. And in both cases you can have slip. Put all of this together in a shaker and see what comes out ...
Decoupled? Sadly not.
BTW 'brushless DC' is an oxymoron. |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by Elso Kwak
Calling Charlie-Alpha-Romeo-Lima-Oscar-Sierra-Foxtrot-Mike!
Do you read me?
The Technics SP10 already has a Colpitts oscillator. This is absolutely OK.
Stefanobilliani., A stubborn myth among audiophiles is that a beltdriven turntable has better sound than a direct dirive.
I made the experiment many years ago comparing a Thorens with my Dual 701. On some records I heard a difference using the same cartridge in favor of the Dual. This proved to be due to the better arm of the Dual. On that particular piano record was a non-flat portion ginving some surface flutter. The Dual with its decoupled counterweight handled is better.
I once asked my boss what he did prefer. He answered belt drive. I asked why, better sound?
No, he said, we can sell more belts. Has a good profit margin! |
:angel:
Most people still don't understand what's a good DD TT.
Talking about BD motor decoupling and comparing that to DD is curious to say the least.:clown:
I guess you have to own a DD TT to know.;)
Let's say DD is bad.
Maby that way I find a really cheap SP10, people may start trashing them.
I'll buy it immediately, make a good plynth and put a good arm on it.:cool: |
|
|
| Raka |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
Maby that way I find a really cheap SP10, people may start trashing them.
I'll buy it immediately, make a good plynth and put a good arm on it.:cool: [/B] |
In this case, let me know, I'm always ready to buy another tt ;) |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by Elso Kwak
I made the experiment many years ago comparing a Thorens with my Dual 701. |
Googling and looking at a pic of the 701 I reconized it.
My father had one of these for many years and sold it.:bawling: :headbash: |
|
|
| analog_sa |
| quote: | | My father had one of these for many years and sold it. |
At least he didn't wait until the current $30 going price :)
I honestly think a good 701 is probably the greatest bargain to be had in TTs. IMHO it kills all the cheap Thorens TTs and gets dangerously close to my Valhalla/Ittok Linn. Btw i run a Denon 103 on the Dual and have only done minimal wiring mods to the arm. |
|
|
|
