| noogie |
Hi to all!
I currently own a mint condition Sony CDP XA 50 ES and while I like the overall sound I think it could be a little smoother and airy and not so dry.
I have some limited skills with electronics so I was wondering what would be the first steo to look at upgrading this player.
By reading aroud I have noticed that many suggest a clock upgrade first.
Also where could I find the workshop manual for this machine?
Should I look for better performing opamps in the analogue section or just install a zapfilter from LC audio?
Any one with information on this players please give me some information as i know very little about the inside of this machine.
I have seen this player heavily modified by Gruensch company in germany and was wondering what they did, any German members to help me out?www.gruensch.de
Best regards to all !: |
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| noogie |
As you seem to be THE man to talk to here as the Sony ES man, my first question ,where do I start?
Consider me a total novice....:scratch: |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by noogie
As you seem to be THE man to talk to here as the Sony ES man, my first question ,where do I start?
Consider me a total novice....:scratch: |
Well Noogie, my "love affair" with the Sony is over. Currently I am using a Philips CD931.
I must emphasize that I did not solve the two-clock problem.
Also not all Sony ES models are alike. In later models f.a. the CDPXA30ES and the SCD-1 only one 45.1584 MHz clock is used.
But the clock mod. is the best start.
:idea: |
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| noogie |
Well Elso, to bad you 2 had to go seperate ways:crackup:
Would you suggest your clock or a premade one? While my skills poor I know people who are bit better and have the right equipment.That Swoboda mod costs about 1500 E so its out of my budget and the Gruensch as well if little cheaper but still shipping 15 kg to germany and back wont be cheap. |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by noogie
Well Elso, to bad you 2 had to go seperate ways:crackup:
Would you suggest your clock or a premade one? While my skills poor I know people who are bit better and have the right equipment.That Swoboda mod costs about 1500 E so its out of my budget and the Gruensch as well if little cheaper but still shipping 15 kg to germany and back wont be cheap. |
Hi Noogie, every clock creator finds his own the best.
Yes the Swoboda mod is VERY expensive.
:cool: |
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| noogie |
So what is the average cost of your clock in its full capacity?
Is it easy to build and install? I assume you dont sell those PCB boards...
You said there are 2 clocks operating at different speeds, can I build 2 seperate clocks?
Both LC audio and Gruensh only modify one of those and I think it
is the master clock only. Could you have look at the Grunsch mod,that one is very fascinating to me and let me know what is your opinion about it. It seems very fleshed out.Thanks for swift replies!:wave2: |
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| Elso Kwak |
Hello,
Yes the KWAK-CLOCK is easy to build. Installation is not very easy as you have to take out the audioboard to get underneath for desoldering the crystal amd the two small caps. See this recent thread for building f.a.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...&threadid=26597
In your Sony two clocks are operating at different frequencies. It is not a problem to replace both clocks but these have to be synchronised!. That's the problem I did not solve.
So the best you can do is replacing the 45.1584MHz clock used for the Delta-Sigma DAC and hope for the best for the 16.9344 MHz clock that still has the CMOS oscillator.
Or if you are using your player only as a transport with an external DAC, replace the 16.9344MHz clock.
I did have a look at the Gruensh mod but did not find much information.:bawling: |
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| ergo |
Hey noogie and Elso,
I have also half way upgrading my Sony CDP-XB930 which is basicly built the same way just from a little cheaper category.
As for clock in this player, the 45MHz clock is the most important one that is actually feeding the DAC chips (both of them - I'll come back to it later). The 16MHz clock is used for the transport part and is created using kind of resonant circuit that is "clocked" by the 45MHz clock. It is not the classic oscillator type. So basicly I consider this not to be as big of a problem as Elso describes. It seems that changing the 45MHz clock still gives the same magnitude of change as for so many other players.
There is another and in my mind far more serious problem is this player (actually the hole generation of Sony players) that there are basicly two DACs. The first one is double balanced voltage output DAC which is followed by what Sony calls a CURRENT PULSE DAC. This last DAC takes the voltage signal and converts it to current signal.
This is in my mind the critical point that damages sound the most + the huge amount of opamps after DAC in original schematic.
What I have done and also one of my friends (he has XA30ES) is to take the signal out after the first voltage output DAC. Then do a more or less regular low pass filtering and to the output terminals.
I have a Borbely Supper Buffer after the DAC around which is formed a 3rd order LP filter. My friend uses his own discreet opamp based on JFETs and the filter is also built around the same "opamp".
Everything that you mention as faults in current setup is much improved + more.
Ergo |
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| boessenkool |
Noogie,
You did mention that you posess limited electronic skills, so why not begin with simple, but effective, tweeks like a different power cord, different capacitors, deadening the housing with bitumen. You can get some nice results from this, it isn't to difficult, it will not cost you a lot of money and you will get get to know cd-player a lot better in the proces.
For instance, changing the power cord on my cdp-xa5es gave good results. More depth and more airy. The cord did cost me about 5 euro, but the result suggests a lot more.
Luuk
The Netherlands |
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| renes3 |
Noogie,
You yourself can do a lot to improve your Sony!
You can add ferrite beads, a filtered IEC mains inlet, dampen the drive with bitumen, without having the technical knowledge. For the rest of the tweaks (better components) you have to find a adress near you, to let them modify your player for you.
René |
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| noogie |
Thanks for all the info!
Yeah, while clock and opamp changes will prove the most improvement I also think that I will start small and then work my way up. I have 3 meters of Supra lo-rad powercable and will first replace the power cord. Capacitors I will have a look at bit later as well as the opamps. Have seen review here in Finland where they put the Zapfilter in the same sony and said it was improved slightly.
That will be last.I dont want to modify the daylights out of it just update to newer things those that I can,so I dont think I will be messing around inside too much!
As for letting it get modifified, it is just too expensive and there isnt anyone here in Finland who offers that kind of services. Think I will take the Gruensch mod as a basis.
two power outputs, asymmetrically connected in parallel in parallel, output impedance 1 ohm
- adjustable linearization of the frequency response for digital filter DF1
- oscillation decoupling of the equipment by SSC pucks
- two paged out plug power packs
Anyone can tell me what that means
:confused: |
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| ergo |
I quess I should start expanding my mod business slowly to Finlands direction. As Estonia is also entering EU 1 of May it should also be easy enough from logistics point of view and not too expensive :)
Ergo |
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| noogie |
So what kind of mods you do and would suggest for my cd player?
Yup,Estonia is basically im my backyard:D |
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| air |
| At least one simple thing to do, is to dampen the drive with bitumen. I just bought some for my dvd963sa, here in Helsinki you can buy Bitumen at "Teollisuus-Etola". |
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| noogie |
| Yup, will replace thepowercord first and also to sime time to look closely at the damping. There is lot of damping to be done as aal the boards are semi floating arrangement but the drive looks to be rather more difficult to dampen. All the caps are elna's and burr brown opamps. Dont know if really worth while to replace caps... opamps could help smoothen sound a little. What would you guys suggest? Thanks air,when in helsinki will go get some.Elso, how many pages in the service manual? |
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| noogie |
| Those opamps are OPA 2604 / OPA 2132 by the way... |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by noogie
Yup, will replace thepowercord first and also to sime time to look closely at the damping. There is lot of damping to be done as aal the boards are semi floating arrangement but the drive looks to be rather more difficult to dampen. All the caps are elna's and burr brown opamps. Dont know if really worth while to replace caps... opamps could help smoothen sound a little. What would you guys suggest? Thanks air,when in helsinki will go get some.Elso, how many pages in the service manual? |
Hi Noogie,
The servicemanual has about 74 pages.
Personally I don't believe in damping mods whether it would be on the crystal, the case or elsewhere.
The clock mod will be the greatest change and secondly the opamps if you retain the original situation.
But I would keep the OPA2604 for IV conversion.
;) |
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| air |
I believe in dampening, that it will reduce mechanical noise from the drive :D
noogie: dont think you want to buy bitumen here in helsinki, they only sell it in pieces of 1 x 1,2 meter, for the price of 21€. Look at shops near you, maybe some K-rauta or something have it. |
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| ergo |
I still feel that this series of Sony players has some major shortcomings on electronics side. You can play around with power cords and add bitumen and it will result in slight changes and most likely for the better. But when you have a chance to compare the original output and a new analog stage getting it's signal from the first DAC the change is so huge that the two are hard to believe to be coming from the same player.
In my own player I have at the moment a situation where I have kept the original signal path and output and then added the Borbely buffer which gets the signal in parallel from the first DAC. For this I have installed an additional pair of RCA sockets on backside. I have not changed the clock yet nor made any mods to power supply or anything else and already if you switch between the two the diffrence is huge.
I have also heared from a 30ES player what doing all the mods sound like. My friend has done it all.... current pulse dac and old analog stage out, Tent clock, custom JFET opamp and power supply mods in. And the sound is simply wonderful. Absolutely no graininess as in original Sony output, deep and very airy soundstage etc.
Basicly what I want to say is that you can amuse yourself by doing the simple mods, but I think you won't even hear the full benefit as the player as is is not transparent enough. That is why I started with just a new analog stage - I want to be able to really hear all the next mods.
Ergo |
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| noogie |
Thanks for all the opions. Ergo, I would like to start slowly as i have very little electronic knowledge and don't want to do some serious redesigning when I have little knowledge of the current design or actualluy any knowledge. Same go for Elso's clock idea. Just too technical to fast at the moment. :scratch:
That implies in it self that they are the most worth while ones.The bigger the risk(for me anyway) the bigger the reward.
Air, I will have look about that bitumen, mabe it helps, maybe it dont especially on the drive cause there is rather little space i think.
Air I also saw that LC audio just released a upgrade kit for you philips,might be worth a look.Doesnt seem like I can change to much at the moment as they use pretty good stuff already... to bad!
Elso,you said to change the opamps but then that I should keep the BB OPA 2604. Have been reading a bit and there are a lot more newer ones available. Why should I keep it then? |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by noogie
Elso,you said to change the opamps but then that I should keep the BB OPA 2604. Have been reading a bit and there are a lot more newer ones available. Why should I keep it then? |
Because I like them as IV converters, though I am using the TDA1543. Tried almost every conceivable opamp in that position.
:idea: |
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| noogie |
Uhm:eek: , what does IV converter mean?
Does it have that function in my machine? What is the purpose of the other opamp OPA 2132 ?
There are if I remember correctly 4xOPA 2604 and 2xOPA 2132...Which ones can be changed then? |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by noogie
Uhm:eek: , what does IV converter mean?
Does it have that function in my machine? What is the purpose of the other opamp OPA 2132 ?
There are if I remember correctly 4xOPA 2604 and 2xOPA 2132...Which ones can be changed then? |
IV converter is current to voltage converter (spelled as IV-conversion in the servicemanual).
The other opamps are for balanced to single ended conversion and for active low pass filtering/ output buffer and DC servo control.
I would not poke around in this machine without a servicemanual.
:att'n: |
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| noogie |
I have no fear cause Elso is near:D
Will get that manual from you soon...
Am into Graphics by the way Elso.
You were not here a few weeks ago doing some photoshoots in Helsinki?
That was a Dutch artist. |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by noogie
Am into Graphics by the way Elso.
You were not here a few weeks ago doing some photoshoots in Helsinki?
That was a Dutch artist. |
Sorry, wasn't me. I usually go South-> Greece
:) |
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| ljozsef |
As owner of the same XB930 would ask you to describe or show (circuits, pictures) the real solution with the best results.
I would go balanced landing in something like Pass' BOSOZ, maybe with a balanced poweramp too.
Would be fine eliminating the whole I/V - opamp chain. I tend to believe in your presented theory.
Laci |
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| ergo |
ljozsef and others,
following is the implementation of Borbely Super Buffer in my Sony CDP XB-930
If you'll try to do the same take a close look how the signal is taken off the main PCB inside the player. I hope the image is good enough.... I had to use a two channel scope to get the phases of the signal right :)
Ergo |
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| noogie |
Time to revive this thread a little. I have changed the powercord. Very worth while upgrade. Warmer sounding and lower noise floor. Damping did not really add or worsen anything ...although audionets idea of filling the bottom part with granite seems interesting though, have look yourselfs at www.audionet.de . Hopefully early next month order my clock from Elso. Will probably take little time to build that...
In the meantime i have reading a lot about opamps and was wondering if it is a good idea to exchange those OPA2604's with AD8065? |
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| mlloyd1 |
personally, i like the opa2604 in this space.
by the way, any of you 779Es (or similar model) owners come up with a reasonable solution for the synched, two clock problem?
mlloyd1 |
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| noogie |
Thanks, lot of other people have stated the same things about the OPA2604 as IV converter.Might just save some money then.
I also have been trying to look bit more into the two clock system and as been stated here some do only modify the main clock. Swoboba is the only one i know of the replaces both clocks but how that done is open to speculation...and if it is really worth while is the other... |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by noogie
Thanks, lot of other people have stated the same things about the OPA2604 as IV converter.Might just save some money then.
I also have been trying to look bit more into the two clock system and as been stated here some do only modify the main clock. Swoboba is the only one i know of the replaces both clocks but how that done is open to speculation...and if it is really worth while is the other... |
Hi Noogie,
It MUST be worthwhile to replace both clocks as I only replaced the 16.9344 MHz clock in my Sony and got MUCH better sound. The 45.1584 MHz clock is used for Sony's Delta-Sigma DAC and this DAC should benefit from that measure.
I used the Sony only as a transport as I did not like the built in Sony DAC and found the AD1864 better. Later I did build in the AD1865 and eventually went for the TDA1543.
The AD1864 and the AD1865 do work with the digital filter CXD1244 in my Sony CDP-X33ES.
:cool: |
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| noogie |
I believe it Elso, but that swoboda clockupgrade is rather expensive and no else seems to have found a diy solution.
For interest sake why don't you like the Sony DAC? |
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| Elso Kwak |
Hi Noogie,
I did not like the sound of the old CXD2552Q in my old Sony as it emphasizes pulses in the sound. Every percussion hit stands out.
Maybe the CXD2562Q in your newer Sony is better.;) |
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| ergo |
noogie, I would not be so concerned about the 16MHz clock. This clock is derived from what is basicly oscillator that is running 16MHz but is also energized by the pulses from 45MHz clock. The 45MHz clock is the one responsible for the clock signal to DAC. Also if you upgrade the 45MHz clock you'll be influencing the 16MHz to better jitter spec just as well.
The clock scheme for the transport as is is guite ok. But this is an educated guess as I have not tried to replace it.
As I have said before, the biggest problems in these olayers is not the clock running transport but the analog stage and athe current pulse DAC...
Ergo |
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| Guido Tent |
| quote: | Originally posted by ergo
ljozsef and others,
following is the implementation of Borbely Super Buffer in my Sony CDP XB-930
If you'll try to do the same take a close look how the signal is taken off the main PCB inside the player. I hope the image is good enough.... I had to use a two channel scope to get the phases of the signal right :)
Ergo |
Nice work Elso !
One remark: Try to twist those wires that belong together, ie input signal and input ground.
It may make a subtle difference, but you know, all these subtle things together...........
cheers |
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| air |
Hi!
As I recently bought an cdp-xa50es, I am trying to wake this thread again :D
Have not yet decided what to do with it, I found some interesting stuff at the LCAudio homepage. They have a guide to installing XClock and Zapfilter in this player, and they ONLY change the 45mhz clock!
XCLock + Zapfilter: http://213.237.39.2/com/index.php?page=44
In this article, they install the Zapfilter after the Current Pulse D/A´s.
However, I also found another article, on how to bypass the Current Pulse D/A!
Bypass: http://213.237.39.2/com/index.php?page=68
Since this is also what ergo mentions in this thread, it seems like a good start to bypass this Current Pulse D/A and build an new analog stage. I am thinking about an op-amp based output. However, what lowpass filtering is necessary to do if I take the balanced signal after the dac, just as LCAudio did? |
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| ljozsef |
Hi,
One question: Are there basic differencies between these two players regarding the mods mentioned in this thread?
Anticipated thanks,
Laci |
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| Justcallmedad |
Hi,
You could have a look on a thread I started a few months ago.
Sony CDP output stage.
I will continue this thread soon, a few new mods, but not much time until mid/end january.
Cheers. |
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| sven-ake |
| quote: | Originally posted by air
Hi!
As I recently bought an cdp-xa50es, I am trying to wake this thread again :D
Have not yet decided what to do with it, I found some interesting stuff at the LCAudio homepage. They have a guide to installing XClock and Zapfilter in this player, and they ONLY change the 45mhz clock!
XCLock + Zapfilter: http://213.237.39.2/com/index.php?page=44
In this article, they install the Zapfilter after the Current Pulse D/A´s.
However, I also found another article, on how to bypass the Current Pulse D/A!
Bypass: http://213.237.39.2/com/index.php?page=68
Since this is also what ergo mentions in this thread, it seems like a good start to bypass this Current Pulse D/A and build an new analog stage. I am thinking about an op-amp based output. However, what lowpass filtering is necessary to do if I take the balanced signal after the dac, just as LCAudio did? |
Hi i have a Sony CDP XA7ES that i let LC Audio upgrade for me (the work they did for free) with Zapfilter 2 and their newest clock,and i assure you it was really worth it.It sounds just like the best i have ever heard. |
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| Reina |
Hi,
i was unsatisfied with the muffled, airless and closed sound of my original sony xa50es too. i still haven't touched the clocks so far, but i got some nice results anyway.
i firstly changed the electrolytic caps in the digital area of the da-board. i used rubycon MBZ 16V 1800uF for C625/626/613 to suppress noise from the supply chain. i used oscon sp 180uF 16V locally. i replaced ic605 against a MC7805ACT, which is a little less noisy.
i added a 22 Ohm resistor in series to the 3.3uH choke for the 45 mhz clock. i removed the 0.1uf ceramic and placed a 220uF 6.3V black gate nx at this place. at the bottom side of the pcb i placed 3 x 10nf npo smd ceramic chip capacitors very close to the smd inverter clock ic. the 16mhz clock was powered from the digital voltage chain, i changed that to the analog chain, in the same way as the 45 MHz clock.
but that kind of tuning was not deliver much better quality for the analog cinch-out. :whazzat:
now i removed the c 531,532-535, 431,432-435. they are 3% film caps, but i doubt that they are high-quality audio parts, cause they are very small. btw: strange construction, cause filtering should normally take place after i/v-conversion?!
i removed ic 501,401 and soldered ic-sockets at this place. cause the ics are dealing with some hf and heavely capacitive loads, i used 2 x ad 826.
for testing purpose i did a small hearing session, but the sound quality was not good, quite noisy and disquietingly.
now i placed wima fkp 2.5% 100V PP film capacitors:
C531, 431 10nF
C532,533,432,433 4.7nF
C534,535,434,435 2.2nF
(round about 50% of original values)
further i added two MKP 22nF PP film caps parallel at C621,622.
now i got the sound-quality, i expected from a player in that class. more air, more agile and powerful! :cool:
(the ad826 ics deliver a nice improvement, but the mkp caps are more important)
compared to my tuned parasound d/ac-1600 the sony sounded very nice, someway darker, but it still lacks some dynamics. at least i can say now, that the d/a-board of the xa50es is NOT **** or something like that ! (greetings at elso ;-)
some things left to do:
- adding a buffer for the cinch-out (i plan to change the opa2132 against ad8620+buf634)
- higher grade nichicon kz for C926,936 on the power board
- new clock[s]
- the head phone amp is a impertinence
greetings |
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| Reina |
i added a MBZ 820uF 6.3V electrolytic parallel to c530 (as it is provided by the board) too. that gives still a little quieter and darker sound, but it is a matter of taste.
on the original pretty airless board i preferred not to use this cap... |
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| Reina |
Hi folks,
i suppose that the only purpose for the filter caps after the current pulse ic's is to limit the V/t speed for the i-v-converter op-amps to prevent distortion by oversteering. the original opa2604 has only 25V/us , the new ad826 has 350V/us.
now i placed the following wima fkp 2.5% 100V PP film capacitors:
C531, 431 2.2nF
C532,533,432,433 1.0nF
C534,535,434,435 0.47nF
(round about 10% of original values)
the lack of dynamics and air disappeared completely! but the sound was still somewhat flimsy, not as compact and good defined as from my parasound.
i added further 10nF PP film caps (WIMA FKP2) directly from the AD862 supply pins to ground.
it is hard to detect the small differences in the sound from my tuned parasound and the sony player now. :cool:
my impression is, the parasound has a little better definition and sound stage, but the sony has nice colors. i still prefer my parasound dac even in asymmetrical mode, but i would say the play in the same class now!
the originally dark but tired trait of the sony is completely gone! it seems to me, that was only a problem of limiting speed for the cheap audio-opamps as i/v-converter.
greetings. |
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| meraxx |
I own an XA555ES.
Is there any main difference with XA50ES?
Does anybody know if the 555 too has TWO quartz clock on board?
Thanks and best regards
Vincenzo |
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