| tom1356 |
| I have to admit these are baffling. Any idea why they work the way they do? |
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| Bill Fitzpatrick |
Those squiggly wood pieces are called "snakes."
The black metal rods in front of them are hollow and hold the oil. |
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| tom1356 |
| I was looking for responses from people who had heard them. |
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| Elso Kwak |
Hi, That would make a nice music-rest.:clown:
Do they make sound???:clown: |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by tom1356
I was looking for responses from people who had heard them. |
In that case you will have to wait a while....
Maybe they only work if bought together with the 400$ wooden knob??
Magura:) |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Elso Kwak
Hi, That would make a nice music-rest.:clown:
Do they make sound???:clown: |
They actually focus the sound quite a bit. It is a remarkable effect.
I have not heard the commercial version. |
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| Magura |
Ban alcohol!!!!
Magura:D |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magura
Ban alcohol!!!!
Magura:D |
Hi, I am sober!
:cool: |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by Elso Kwak
Hi, I am sober!
:cool: |
You also didnt claim a change of sound from these thingies ;)
They dont seem sturdy enough to support a bunch of CD's, but maybe if we.......
Magura:) |
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| tom1356 |
Magura
Why would you post on a subject you know nothing about? |
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| Magura |
The entire forum have been laughing about those a while ago, they were advertised together with a few other good laughs. Among other things a 400$ wooden volume knob.
If im not mistaken, the conclusion back then was that you gain more by putting a photo of yourself in the freezer.
Magura:) |
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| tom1356 |
| I'm glad I didn't read that thread before building them. I hope you are very young... I remember back when I knew everything. |
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| Magura |
Here on DIYaudio, most of us are young at heart ;)
Magura:) |
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| SY |
| If you keep your mind open wide enough, there are people who will be happy to throw all sorts of garbage in there. In the meantime, I will improve my sound by putting Magura in my freezer. |
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| Magura |
Hey Sy
It works loads better to put your wife in the freezer. It was concluded in another thread not too long ago ;)
Magura:) |
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| SY |
| Yes, but my wife isn't participating on this thread. |
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| Bill Fitzpatrick |
You can get a lot of different effects depending what you place behind your speakers. Things to try are:
Large serving platter
A thermal blanket
A large, carved Holoween pumpkin
Plant with a lot of leaves
20 rolls of paper towels without the plastic wrap
A life sized photo of a very expensive subwoofer
My personal favorite is a large dog sitting in a chair reading a copy of Stereophile |
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| tom1356 |
I am surprised that all you people, who have not heard the difference they make, all have opinions.
I guess it's true what they say "opinions are like ******** everyone has them..."
None of you are interested in improving what you listen to?
The lack of curiosity is what is really surprising.
Why do you come to Diyaudio.com then?
Go back to listening to your Soundesign one-piece systems.
Nothing more to see here. |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magura
They dont seem sturdy enough to support a bunch of CD's, but maybe if we.......
Magura:) |
Hi Magura,
I meant sheet music!
;) |
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| SY |
| quote: | None of you are interested in improving what you listen to?
The lack of curiosity is what is really surprising.
Why do you come to Diyaudio.com then?
Go back to listening to your Soundesign one-piece systems.
Nothing more to see here.
|
My goodness.
:cop: BTW, I cleaned up your language a bit. Please don't make me do that again. |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
My goodness.
:cop: BTW, I cleaned up your language a bit. Please don't make me do that again. |
We are so lucky to have you. |
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| Bill Fitzpatrick |
tom1356
I'm telling you that you haven't lived until you try the "large dog sitting in a chair reading Stereophile."
Oh, sure, it's a lot of work trying to find a dog that can read but it's worth the trouble. The effect is amazing and it puts the Shaktis to shame. You must be curious, eh? |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bill Fitzpatrick
tom1356
I'm telling you that you haven't lived until you try the "large dog sitting in a chair reading Stereophile."
Oh, sure, it's a lot of work trying to find a dog that can read but it's worth the trouble. The effect is amazing and it puts the Shaktis to shame. You must be curious, eh? |
Stay stupid what do I care.. |
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| Peter Daniel |
I am really surprised with overall response in this thread. People dismiss a product, even before giving it a try.
And who are those?
As usually, Mr. Magura. He is 28, so there is a lot to learn in his life yet;)
I didn't listen to this one, but I tried something similar. It was made of 1.5" pipes, 6' high and spaced pretty close (I believe 4 or 6 of them altogether). The improvement in sound was very similar to what you describe. An interesting thing was that when replicas were made out of PVC, the effect was not the same. The originals were made of some plastic and the whole thing was pretty expensive, $600 or more.
Now, some of you might laugh, but I'm very curious about photographs in a freezer too, and within few days I will conduct an experiment. I finally managed to find a proper picture;)
http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/whatamess.html |
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| Magura |
I happen to have stumbled on a similar product....with great claims, and zip effect.
Naturally, the ideal situation is that the listening room is empty, the dampening adjusted, and the reflections of the walls are corrected....problem is that you have to turn on your stereo and leave the room to get the right sound.
An aquaintance of mine from belgium have designed acoustics for a number of concert halls in europe, he have been talking a lot about dampening and reflection...and a whole lot of calculations and so forth, but I have never heard him speaking of the Shakti's. Neither have I seen shakti's in any of his designs.
I find that somewhat strange if the shaktis work so well and is such a great improvement of the sound.
Magura:) |
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| Peter Daniel |
But you should also know that: "Everything is possible....to do the impossible just takes a little while longer."
In that case maybe more experience with critical listening. When I was your age, I didn't hear what I hear now either. It took me a lot of practice (and good will) to start noticing small nuances in recorded sound.
PS: I put two pictures in a freezer, and did some brief comparisons. You might laugh again, but I'm almost certain that there is slight improvement, basically more clarity to the sound and better separation.;) I will experiment some more, before coming to any conclusion though in that matter.. |
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| Bill Fitzpatrick |
First of all, I can't believe that Peter Daniel, or anybody else for that matter, can be serious about the freezer photos.
Secondly, this part of a paragraph from their website:
"The Hallograph contours the frequency, amplitude and time coefficients of the first reflections you hear, which produces a stunning increase in realism."
The first reflection you hear comes from the floor and the second from the side walls, or vise-versa depending on your situation. The device in question can in no way effect these particular reflections; ergo, they are making this up. |
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| till |
| quote: | | As usually, Mr. Magura. He is 28, so there is a lot to learn in his life yet |
some are older, but did not learn much until now as it looks. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bill Fitzpatrick
First of all, I can't believe that Peter Daniel, or anybody else for that matter, can be serious about the freezer photos.
|
I don't have to be that serious to just give it a try. I don't see a reason why photographs wouldn't work, so the easiest way for me to learn is simply try it out.
It just takes two pictures, two plastic bags and a freezer, most people have those items. What they don't have is enough imagination, good will, curiosity and desire to experiment.
I have some friends, who are into alternative medicine, and they can easily sense through the photograph if the person is alive or not. So there might be more to the photographs than we actually think.;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by till
some are older, but did not learn much until now as it looks. |
Something tells me you are not talking about yourself here? But again, you still claim that Wimas MKS sound beautiful. You can't be taken seriously either;) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | I happen to have stumbled on a similar product....with great claims, and zip effect. |
Hmmm...I have one of those in my pants....I mean the zipper....
Seriously though....
Why get all upset about something you've never tried?
Does Peter know what he thinks he knows by just sitting in his chair?
Don't think so....
So if we go through the logic:
Would anyone care to market a product_ this does cost money _if no one could hear a difference?
Maybe but not for long, quite likely not long enough to break even.
Personally I try to never laugh at something or someone I don't understand unless it's really ridiculous for the right reasons:
You can make fun of someone when you read that speaker wire insulation needs to be made of unbleached cotton but I can see why they'd say to avoid certain plastics or other chemicals that surround certain wires in some applications.
In the same way I can also make fun of people claiming that everything needs to be insulated using the best (read lowest DA) insulation.
On both occasions, both situations can be ridiculed as obviously neither understand what should matter, where and why.
Until then, why not keep an open mind and try something out yourself? Even if it seems pure lunacy?
Cheers,;) |
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| till |
| quote: | | Something tells me you are not talking about yourself here? But again, you still claim that Wimas MKS sound beautiful. You can't be taken seriously either |
there is a simple fact why i can´t speak about myself in this case. gess what.
But excuse, i can´t take someone serios who belives those caps sound bad but listens to electronic music of a kind that can´t do anything but harm your ears, and worse, belives in mystic live and information behind photographies. huu!
Before you tell me about capacitor sound go any listen to something that has the right to be called music.
At least with what i listened today they sound very good (if they do anything to sound)
Janacek, Sinfomietta, etc
some Beethoven,
some Orff
better compare using same recorded material and not some industrial mess.
As at least 2 of them are recoded in germany i´m pretty sure the signal has allready seen some wima caps. |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
So if we go through the logic:
Would anyone care to market a product_ this does cost money _if no one could hear a difference?
Maybe but not for long, quite likely not long enough to break even.
|
Unfotunately I guess if you think a little about it, you will find examples of such fraud in many a buisness.
To take a look at something I know being a fact, the medico buisness.
Across the street from where I had my time as an apprentice, there was a pill factory. They produced all sorts of wonderpills. The cruel fact was unfortunately that most of what they produced was based on 99.9% talcum or C vitamins. They naturally had to include some of the respective herb that the pill was advertised to contain, but it would resemble making 1 ton of strawberry marmelade but using just 1 strawberry.
That company is still alive and kicking after more than 20 years.
Magura:) |
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| Peter Daniel |
You shouldn't judge anybody by the type of music he listens to. I listen to electronica and industrial simply because it's in line with my usual state of mind.
But for critical system evaluation, I'm listening to more audiophile recordings. So today to check the photographs I was using:
Paganini for Two: Gil Shahan und Goran Sollscher- Works for Violin and Guitar, Deutsche Grammophon GmbH
Ballads in blue , Enja Records Munchen
Giacchino Rossini, Sonate per Archi, Platte1, Delta Music GmbH
Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, Scherazade, Deutsche Grammophon
Holly Cole, Temptation, Alert Music Inc.
All those recordings are highly recommended.;) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | That company is still alive and kicking after more than 20 years. |
Fraud is fraud, no doubt about that.
In the medical business, sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind...profiteering on it is wrong though.
For example, in order to save someones' life a doctor may need to prescribe a placebo to a patient...In order to make it acceptable as the real thing he may have to charge the patient the amount asked for the real thing.
I don't consider that fraud.
But I think you understand my previous post: it's just the usual horses for courses thing and I don't blame anyone for playing it safe and use the best dielectric wherever it makes for more "psychological comfort".
After all, if all of us would be skilled in practicing law there would be no need for lawyers either...Not a bad thing to have you may say.:D
Cheers,;) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Till,
| quote: | | As at least 2 of them are recoded in germany i´m pretty sure the signal has allready seen some wima caps. |
Nothing against Wima....
Some of the finest caps are made in Germany no doubt.
But why stick with inferior, both from an engineering POV and sonically, polyester caps when you can easily enjoy better?
Epcos anyone?
Cheers,;) |
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| Bill Fitzpatrick |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
. . . I don't see a reason why photographs wouldn't work . . .
|
That, in a nutshell, is your problem. You're willing to believe in everything except the concept of "the patently absurd." |
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| Hybrid fourdoor |
The only "snake and oil" I've ever taken part in is just simply turining the lights off. I don't know how, but my stereo always sounds way better in the dark :confused:
I think it's because my visual refereneces are lost, and so I don't judge the sound on the physical limitations of the room/speakers.
Also one "room modification" I think may be worth doing, and probably the the only one I think, would be coving foam with speaker cloth and putting it on the walls. The foam to absorb reflections, and the speaker cloth to simply make it look good. I think like what they do in a theater where they put a bunch of overlapping fabric on the wall would have a similar effect.
But as far as that thing on the first page, I just don't logically see how those could effect anything. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | I don't know how, but my stereo always sounds way better in the dark |
I think everyone's system sounds better in the dark...for a number of reasons....
Cheers,;) |
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| tom1356 |
| This site used to be worth visiting. I see that is no longer the case. to bad. |
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| till |
Frank,| quote: | | But why stick with inferior, both from an engineering POV and sonically, polyester caps when you can easily enjoy better? |
please teach me some serios engineering. I know there are situations of voltage or current peaks, etc special properties are needed that could be fullfilled better with other caps than MKS. But in the preamp i have not this conditions. I simple need an electristatical very small field that changes with the signal a bit. nearly no current and nearly no voltage, less than 1% of what the cap is speced for. Please tell me , in engineering terms, not religios vodoo********, so i could learn something. Sorry, i´m no EE and thus this is not part of what i learned at school or university. From an engineerinmg POV any kind of ion reaction cap must be worse than any real electrostatic cap. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | please teach me some serios engineering. |
When I'm not giving gratuitious advice I'm said to be very expensive...:D
Honestly, Till, what sets the polyester cap apart from the other filmcaps is the dielectric absorbtion which, regardless of any other factor, is the poorest of all common filmcaps.
It's not clear to me from your description what the cap is doing in your preamp but the reasoning that: "it's overspecced for what it needs to do there" is not a good arguement when it comes to coupling (?)caps.
Other than that, if you want to search the forum I'm sure you'll find more than a dozen threads about caps and their influence on audio....some of them may contain a sprinkle of voodoo so be warned.
Cheers,;) |
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| till |
| quote: | | some of them may contain a sprinkle of voodoo so be warned. |
i read a lot of them, and i found mainly voodoo of the kind like skinning caps etc....
What i did not find was scientific statements or measurements or what we would call in this country engineering. I know this may be seen different at other locations were people need to freeze their photos when listening to music, whats quiet uncommon here.
Who worries about that little absorption could never ever use any transformer because of hysteresis of the core i guess? And electrolytics must be a big no no in that case?
The MKS4 100 10uF do couple the signal out of the preamp http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/balzenpre.pdf in my case.
Is there any chance the effect of this absorbtion could be measured? what setup would be needed for this? |
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| Peter Daniel |
Till,
As a moderator, I'd like to remind you that you are highjacking this thread in a direction not intended originally.
I don't really mind when you do that, but don't ask me later to clean up your mess. |
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| till |
| i dont need to say what i would consider mess, Peter. Ok, i will ask another moderator (who hopefully does not belive in voodoo and will accept someone does serios diskurs on this board) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Is there any chance the effect of this absorbtion could be measured? what setup would be needed for this? |
Certainly.
Here's just one example:
THE SOUND OF CAPACITORS....
There are also charts available on the net on DA factors of various insulators that are commonly used in electronics.
Cheers,;) |
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| till |
Thanks for the link,
This mainly tells us ceramics and electrolytics are ****, paper/oil and and film caps are much better. The differences between diffrent films compared to the **** kinds are only marginal. So much for capacitor sound and black gates are better?
As i said before, i hear the differnce if door of listening room is open or closed. I did not hear diffrence between caps or resitors until now. I probably will better open the door, whats for free, instead of wasting money with 100times more expensive caps than needed. |
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| Magura |
In the end of the day most of whats discussed here about improvements, is marginal improvements. One could claim that if adequately many small improvements are made, it would be audiable.....but you have to be pretty far off target to make an audiable improvement with just one factor, counting out active devices.
Ive made a whole lot of tests lately of anything from caps to speaker cables. 99.9% of the cases Ive been unable to detect any difference in a blind test.
There are naturally some general guidelines that has to be followed to succeed, but besides that....its very limited what you gain from "improvements" besides empty pockets.
In some cases though you can gain reliability by choosing better quality components. For instance power supply caps must be of reasonable quality to make it in the long run. Another "upgrade" I find nice is to use teflon insulated wire, it gives me quite long time to switch off the amp if something goes wrong without melting, I like the safety of that. Also a trafo must be of reasonable quality, else it causes all kinds of problems.
A good example of the result of this approach is a friend of mine's Zen V1. Its built according to the above philosophy, and as far as im concerned, its as close to perfect as you can get.
Magura:) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | but you have to be pretty far off target to make an audiable improvement with just one factor, counting out active devices. |
Actually, more often than not quite the contrary is true.
| quote: | | its very limited what you gain from "improvements" besides empty pockets. |
There is of course the law of diminishing returns.
OTOH, when the basics are sound it can be surpising how much can be had for little money.
As for blind tests, well I'm not too sure about their validity for audio purposes....I sometimes look as much to sound as I listen to it, no kidding.
Cheers,;) |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
There is of course the law of diminishing returns.
OTOH, when the basics are sound it can be surpising how much can be had for little money.
As for blind tests, well I'm not too sure about their validity for audio purposes....I sometimes look as much to sound as I listen to it, no kidding.
Cheers,;) |
Its the law of diminishing returns im on about, as im quite sure most of whats built here is quite high end (sound vise).
What do you mean with looking to sound?
Magura:) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | as im quite sure most of whats built here is quite high end (sound vise). |
Allow me to seriously doubt that...
| quote: | | What do you mean with looking to sound? |
With a reasonably well recorded source and a decently engineered system you should be able to "see" the musician(s) perform as intended by the recording engineer.
Cheers,;) |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magura
In the end of the day most of whats discussed here about improvements, is marginal improvements. One could claim that if adequately many small improvements are made, it would be audiable.....but you have to be pretty far off target to make an audiable improvement with just one factor, counting out active devices.
Ive made a whole lot of tests lately of anything from caps to speaker cables. 99.9% of the cases Ive been unable to detect any difference in a blind test.
There are naturally some general guidelines that has to be followed to succeed, but besides that....its very limited what you gain from "improvements" besides empty pockets.
In some cases though you can gain reliability by choosing better quality components. For instance power supply caps must be of reasonable quality to make it in the long run. Another "upgrade" I find nice is to use teflon insulated wire, it gives me quite long time to switch off the amp if something goes wrong without melting, I like the safety of that. Also a trafo must be of reasonable quality, else it causes all kinds of problems.
A good example of the result of this approach is a friend of mine's Zen V1. Its built according to the above philosophy, and as far as im concerned, its as close to perfect as you can get.
Magura:) |
Someday you will learn that everything matters. Every component ,every connector, and every wire.
I don't know why the Soundfield Optimizers work but they do. |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
Allow me to seriously doubt that...
|
For tube gear that could be true, I honestly havnt got a clue about tubes, but for SS its most definitely not the case. Most of the Pass constructions people build here are simple copies of what NP have made, I guess there is a limit how bad that can turn out. As for gainclones....if people cant build such reasonably well, there is sure absolutely no point in any upgrades, what so ever.
If people dont hit the ceiling of diminishing returns pretty much right away, in most cases upgrades of any sort would be in vain.
So I guess in most cases one excludes the other.
Magura:) |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by tom1356
Someday you will learn that everything matters. Every component ,every connector, and every wire.
I don't know why the Soundfield Optimizers work but they do. |
Anybody I know of have their stereo's in their livingrooms.
Will you in sober condition claim that you can hear a Shakti or a capacitor, when the entire room is full of stuff like cupboards with plenty of different stuff inside to rattle and resonate away, tables and chairs all over the place, windows in all kinds of places, and old wooden floor (thats the kind of floor most houses are made with around here) thats singing and resonating, plus all the other stuff people tend to acumulate in a livingroom ????
....a wooden stick of a fraction of the size of anything else in the room is visible, but surely not audiable.
Magura:) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Most of the Pass constructions people build here are simple copies of what NP have made, I guess there is a limit how bad that can turn out. As for gainclones....if people cant build such reasonably well, there is sure absolutely no point in any upgrades, what so ever. |
Well, I'm absolutely certain that at least 70% of those copies use different components, different pieces of wire, solder etc.
Therefore it is only normal that they'll all sound a little different but not necessarily bad.
Do you think that if we'd build a gainclone with the values specified as per the design, they'd sound the same?
What if I tell you that in the right system I can make Peter Daniel's gainclone sound completely different just by tightening or untightening a few screws that have nothing to do whatsoever with the electronics proper but are used to hold the case together?
Cheers,;) |
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| Magura |
Just to illustrate what kind of madness ive seen lately, take a look at this. Note the "diffractors"(I guess thats what he called them) each standing on a chair...dont miss the plate of rockwool behind one speaker....and finally dont miss that the chairs the "diffractors" are parked on are about the same size as the "diffractors"....oh and pease note the old rattleing single layer windows in the background.
Magura:)
EDIT: Please not his jacket is also a quite big object in the room....but he decided against moving the coathanger. |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
What if I tell you that in the right system I can make Peter Daniel's gainclone sound completely different just by tightening or untightening a few screws that have nothing to do whatsoever with the electronics proper but are used to hold the case together?
Cheers,;) |
Im sure youre right about that. Its a simple matter of dampening and whats related to such.
Its not really snake oil nor news to me.
If you look inside the better end of Yamaha amps, youll find that the finns of the heatsinks are dampened by a rubber strip.
Magura:)
EDIT:
Im 100% sure that you can make a diagram of the resonance frequenzy of the case and the respective effects it has on the sound.. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Its not really snake oil nor news to me. |
Exactly...
Now, why is that?
Because as a trained mechanical engineer this is something you can relate to and understand?
Do you see where I am going with you?
Cheers,;) |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magura
Anybody I know of have their stereo's in their livingrooms.
Will you in sober condition claim that you can hear a Shakti or a capacitor, when the entire room is full of stuff like cupboards with plenty of different stuff inside to rattle and resonate away, tables and chairs all over the place, windows in all kinds of places, and old wooden floor (thats the kind of floor most houses are made with around here) thats singing and resonating, plus all the other stuff people tend to acumulate in a livingroom ????
....a wooden stick of a fraction of the size of anything else in the room is visible, but surely not audiable.
Magura:) |
I live in a very small condo on the ocean. My livingroom also contains a diningroom set and a cupbord full of dishes. The only thing missing from your list is the wood floor (mine is concrete as are the walls).
I replaced very good paper in oil coupling capacitors in my mono block amps with Mundorf silver in oil caps and just like with the Soundfield Optimizers there was a big improvement.
Face it you are just blowing smoke and you have no idea what you are talking about. Go out and get a decent system and a decent education in what it takes to reproduce sound. It will enlighten you. |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
Exactly...
Now, why is that?
Because as a trained mechanical engineer this is something you can relate to and understand?
Do you see where I am going with you?
Cheers,;) |
I dont quite see where youre going ?? Am I missing something here?
The resonance frequency theory is easily proven.....thats somewhat harder with a wooden stick behind the speaker.
Magura:) |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
Exactly...
Now, why is that?
Because as a trained mechanical engineer this is something you can relate to and understand?
Do you see where I am going with you?
Cheers,;) |
Frank if you end up making sense to this guy you are even more of a hero to me.
Good luck he is very determined to stay right where he is. |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by tom1356
Go out and get a decent system and a decent education in what it takes to reproduce sound. It will enlighten you. |
Not that I wish to compare myself to Nelson Pass, but he for some reason never speaks of wooden sticks and the like.....why???
Because he dosnt need to feed his imagination to experince fantastic sound. Its right at hand.
If you cant achieve the sound quality you'd like, feeding your imagination may be the cure....just dont make claims based on placebo.
Why dont you take advantage of the fact that its DIY and make something that actually sounds good? Its really not that hard.
Magura:)
EDIT:
Pass also have obviously little interest in making money on us....he tends to be brutally honest, even if its not exactly putting his products in the best light. |
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| Magura |
OK, enough of this for tonight...sleep tight both of you.
Magura:) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | The resonance frequency theory is easily proven..... |
That's only part of what's changed...there's more.
| quote: | | Not that I wish to compare myself to Nelson Pass, but he for some reason never speaks of wooden sticks and the like.....why??? |
Because it has nothing to do with what he does as a designer of electronics, after all it's not the pianobuilders' fault the acoustics in the concerthall are only so so...
| quote: | | Am I missing something here? |
What I think you're missing here is that we all tend to dismiss as hogwash what we can't comprehend.
Remember that other thread about cotton insulation on speaker wire?
Granted, I made a bit of a mockery out of it because I know too that some guys are really looking for things that just aren't there...
Still, I'm more upset by the way they try to sell than what it is they're trying to sell as I can see the reasoning behind it, namely that some plastics can impinge a sonic flavour on the sound that's rather errrr....well, plasticky.
If, for instance, someone would tell me that I absolutely have to use PTFE insulated speaker wire because it's just the better insulator and anything else is just **** then I also have enough knowledge at hand to prove the guy wrong based on engineering knowledge.
However if he'd tell me that regardless of DA of PTFE it's still the best sounding insulation material for speaker cable then he could be right or wrong...
IOW, for lack of proof or understanding don't dismiss it beforehand.
If you can't afford to try it because of cost than try things you can afford.
If time after time you can't hear a difference but everyone else can, you than know for a fact you're wasting your time.
Somehow I know you will try or I wouldn't spend the time and effort. ;)
Cheers,;) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | OK, enough of this for tonight...sleep tight both of you. |
Errrrr....Don't forget to remove the wife from the freezer.:devilr:
Cheers,;) |
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| thomas997 |
I agree with Magura on almost all of his points..
Especially the placebo one. These Hallographs are like a sugar pill. They dont really do much, but maybe they have an effect on the mind just sitting there.
So just as someone can recover faster from a cold by taking a placebo, music can sound better by putting a piece of foam on a chair..
I can see someone covering all their walls in it to reduce reflections. But just in one place in the room?
hmm |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
from the freezer.:devilr:
Cheers,;) |
My pictures will stay there for a while;) |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by thomas997
I agree with Magura on almost all of his points..
Especially the placebo one. These Hallographs are like a sugar pill. They dont really do much, but maybe they have an effect on the mind just sitting there.
So just as someone can recover faster from a cold by taking a placebo, music can sound better by putting a piece of foam on a chair..
I can see someone covering all their walls in it to reduce reflections. But just in one place in the room?
hmm |
Thanks for chiming in about the things you don't know. I'm sure it's a long list. Please spare us. |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
My pictures will stay there for a while;) |
Peter are you at least feeling chilly? |
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| Bill Fitzpatrick |
| quote: | Originally posted by thomas997
I can see someone covering all their walls in it to reduce reflections. But just in one place in the room?
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Sure, it modifies the first reflection off the side walls. Makes a VERY audible difference. |
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| Peter Daniel |
I feel like my awarness is cooler.;)
But seriously, I'm detecting a sort of increased clarity, could be a placebo effect, or could be something else. But definitely worth a try. You can take the photos out of fridge anytime, and then it seems like the effect disappears. Good thing about it, is that no one else in the house is affect by that, as it's supposed to work only for me. That is a very cool experiment;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
| Did you build those Shaktis yourself? They seem like a sort of diffusor. I wouldn't mind trying them myself. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Peter are you at least feeling chilly? |
In case someone should catch a cold....excellent placebos can be had. (note the oxymoron)
| quote: | | Sure, it modifies the first reflection off the side walls. Makes a VERY audible difference. |
Sure does....even though I wouldn't have liked to be that particular demo room...Yikes...
Did you notice the diffusor on the coathanger too? [kidding]
Cheers,;) |
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| tom1356 |
Peter
Yes I made them. They really are quite amazing. I tried just one of them between the speakers and that was an improvement . I have heard others using a second set behind and to the sides of the listener with very good results. I will be making three more for these positions.
I don't know what they are diong but they do it very well. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| What are they made of and what's the approx. size? |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | 6-foot-tall contraptions made of what appeared to be unfinished hardwoods, which were standing behind and outside of the speakers near the rear corners. |
Quoted from Enjoy the Music...No idea if size matters here.:angel:
Cheers,;) |
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| andy_c |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
(...)If, for instance, someone would tell me that I absolutely have to use PTFE insulated speaker wire because it's just the better insulator and anything else is just **** then I also have enough knowledge at hand to prove the guy wrong based on engineering knowledge.
However if he'd tell me that regardless of DA of PTFE it's still the best sounding insulation material for speaker cable then he could be right or wrong...(...) |
Frank,
I'm a bit confused about what you're saying above. In the second paragraph you seem to be complaining about the dielectric absorption of Teflon? This article by Pease http://www.national.com/rap/Applica...1570,28,00.html Fig 7 seems to indicate that, at least among capacitor dielectrics, it's the lowest available. |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
What are they made of and what's the approx. size? |
The bottoms are purpleheart the rest is maple. There is a decorative inlay on each squiggly thing. They are a little over 6' high and are adjustable. They are 12 1/4" wide at the top. 14" wide at the base.
I can email you the plans I followed to build them. I don't have a band saw so it was a lot more work than it could have been. Anyone need a few dozen 2"maple circles? |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | In the second paragraph you seem to be complaining about the dielectric absorption of Teflon? |
Certainly not complaining about the DA of PTFE, it's just that for speaker wire applications it's just not necessary at all to use it.
IOW, if you perceive an audible difference there, I very much doubt it would be due to the DA of PTFE since current levels are pretty high and impedances very low.
Cheers,;) |
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| andy_c |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
(...)IOW, if you perceive an audible difference there, I very much doubt it would be due to the DA of PTFE since current levels are pretty high and impedances very low. |
Ah, that clears it up. Thanks. |
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| Magura |
Well, to make a long story short.
The photo I posted earlier is just one example of many occasions Ive seen/-heard, where somebody have made/-bought some sort of voodoo. Forgive my lack of interest in trying if the Shakti's should be the first product to actually have an effect on anybody besides the guy who bought/-made the ithem.
ALL the products Ive seen till now from that part of the game (remember the accoustic correction plugs to mount in the walls in the listening room? remember those little wooden thingies you had to carry in your pocket? remember the wooden volume knobs? demagnetising CD's? ETC.) have been with no effect in real life.....and I wasnt the only one to say so, the wast majority thought so too.
If the Shakti's actually happened to have any effect what so ever, I guess we would have seen a whole lot more of them around. As it is not the case.....I guess Ill stick to sending my wife out shopping. That leaves me with an audiable difference, as it lowers the noise floor by a magnitude.
Magura:) |
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| SY |
| quote: | | I have some friends, who are into alternative medicine, and they can easily sense through the photograph if the person is alive or not. So there might be more to the photographs than we actually think. |
Peter, if someone can demonstrate this, there's a $1M prize; if these are friends, you could probably talk them inot giving you 10% for putting them on to this. There have been lots of claimants who have asserted the same thing (alternative medicine is full of fools, the self-deluded, and charlatans, almost as much so as high-end audio), and every last one of them has failed any real test. I do commend them for the creativity evinced in their excuses about why they failed (or in most cases, their excuses about why their fabulous abilities can't be tested).
Shakti over the years has shown that there's no shortage of gullible people who want to believe in magic so badly that they'll throw money and time at amazingly ridiculous stuff. Excuse me, gotta go now- someone's got a perpetual motion machine he wants to show me. Hey, it could work, you nasty closed-minded people! |
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| setmenu |
I cannot comment on any audible effects , but the wooden objects
in question do at least have some artistic merit.
They can simply be viewed as pieces of sculpture that [if they are to ones taste] can enhance ones listening space.
Some may even feel that a representation of their chosen deity may in fact be more uplifting [if such idolatry is of course permitted].;)
It does seem to be the week for threads about 'audio ephemera',
over at head-Fi there is an interesting one about 'rainbow foil', a
Peter Belt 'product'.
Setmenu |
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| tom1356 |
How funny is it that the people who admittedly know nothing about the subject are so outspoken. They throw the kitchen sink at you for arguments while avoiding the central issue.
How many superfluous arguments have been introduced into this thread?
Six pages of "some guy I know doesn't use them so they don't work"
What do any of them have to do with these diffusers?
You know you are in over your head in a disscusion when you post photos of something totaly irrelevant as proof of your position.
In that photo how would the sound change if two fingers were placed firmly into their ears?
Fingers are much smaller than the diffusers so they should have no effect.
Thats your logic. |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
Shakti over the years has shown that there's no shortage of gullible people who want to believe in magic so badly that they'll throw money and time at amazingly ridiculous stuff. Excuse me, gotta go now- someone's got a perpetual motion machine he wants to show me. Hey, it could work, you nasty closed-minded people! |
This is not a good argument because I am not selling anything. I did not buy anything.
You and your ilk need to separate the value of something and its function. A product can work perfectly and be a bad value to you. It could also be a good value to someone else. This has no impact on its funtion.
There are some dubious products on the market I'm sure.
Everything else Shakti makes could be junk (I don't know because I have no idea if they make anything else).
These are worth the effort it takes to make them.
I will be making others to see if the effect is compounded. |
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| RHosch |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Do you think that if we'd build a gainclone with the values specified as per the design, they'd sound the same? |
Absolutely.| quote: | | What if I tell you that in the right system I can make Peter Daniel's gainclone sound completely different just by tightening or untightening a few screws that have nothing to do whatsoever with the electronics proper but are used to hold the case together? |
I'd say you are full of it... and I'd be right unless something was so loose as to be audibly resonating before tightening a screw. Microphonics...? please. |
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| RHosch |
| quote: | Originally posted by tom1356
How funny is it that the people who admittedly know nothing about the subject are so outspoken. |
Becaues some of those people do know something... they know enough about the placebo effect and psychoacoustics in general to know that there is a much more believable and tested explanation for why you perceived a difference than the one you offered (that they actually affect the sound waves in your room).
To be perfectly honest, with something six feet tall sitting between the speakers, there is a real possibility that in some small way they do affect the sound waves reaching your ears. Probably a small effect, and obviously not operating through the mechanism described on their site, but possibly measurable with sensitive enough equipment.
Here's a question tom... do you belive placing photographs of yourself in the freezer physically affects the performance of your speakers? Do you believe the position of Pluto in the sky affects the performance of your speakers? Do you beleive placing a green 'X' on all of your CD's jewel cases improves the performance of your speakers? Why or why not? Just how "open" is your mind? |
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| phase_accurate |
Almost any object standing around in your listening environment have an impact on sound. Also these ones I assume. But I suspect that they have only as much impact that it is just barely recognizeable. This way even if it would sound worse it wouldn't sound much worse and noone will notice the change to the worse. It would just be SOME change so one is fooled into thinking that it sounds better. But this is just my opinion.
I by myself would rather rely on the well known types of absorbers and diffusors (like Schroeder diffusors, which look quite decorative as well).
Regards
Charles |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by RHosch
Becaues some of those people do know something...
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There is no evidence for this.
| quote: | Originally posted by RHosch
they know enough about the placebo effect and psychoacoustics in general to know that there is a much more believable and tested explanation for why you perceived a difference than the one you offered (that they actually affect the sound waves in your room).
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Perception is reality. Hence the placibo efect is well undestood as a curative device.| quote: | Originally posted by RHosch
To be perfectly honest, with something six feet tall sitting between the speakers, there is a real possibility that in some small way they do affect the sound waves reaching your ears. Probably a small effect, and obviously not operating through the mechanism described on their site, but possibly measurable with sensitive enough equipment.
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So they do something, I just can't hear it because you don't think I should be able to.
I have news for you. I posses the most sensitive measuring equipment known to man. My ears. Maybe if you listened with ears and not scopes you would hear differences.| quote: | Originally posted by RHosch
Here's a question tom... do you belive placing photographs of yourself in the freezer physically affects the performance of your speakers? Do you believe the position of Pluto in the sky affects the performance of your speakers? Do you beleive placing a green 'X' on all of your CD's jewel cases improves the performance of your speakers? Why or why not? Just how "open" is your mind? |
I can't imagine how these things would effect the sound of a system, but I don't know that they don't work and neither do you.
I am constantly amazed by what does improve the sound of my system. When your system is high resolution small changes sometimes have a very big impact.
My particular illusion engine benifits from these. You can't say yours doesn't. |
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| SY |
| quote: | | Almost any object standing around in your listening environment have an impact on sound. Also these ones I assume. But I suspect that they have only as much impact that it is just barely recognizeable. |
I tried the experiment with a couple of hat-racks, since they're about the same mass and cross section as the magical, mystical devices. No real difference that I could hear unless they were placed very close to my listening seat or directly in front of the speakers (which are dipoles, FWIW). |
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| RHosch |
| quote: | Originally posted by tom1356
Perception is reality. |
Are you a solopsist? Or do you believe that there is indeed an objective reality apart from your perception of it?
| quote: | | Hence the placibo efect is well undestood as a curative device. |
Then you admit that many of the changes that "amaze" you by improving your system may in fact be based on the placebo effect?
| quote: | | So they do something, I just can't hear it because you don't think I should be able to. |
To be precise, I think it is unlikely that these objects alter the soundwaves hitting your ears sufficiently to produce the effect you describe, but I explicitly allowed for that possibility. They are six feet tall, after all.
| quote: | | I have news for you. I posses the most sensitive measuring equipment known to man. My ears. Maybe if you listened with ears and not scopes you would hear differences. |
I have news for you as well... electronic instruments are orders of magnitude more sensitive than our ears. That your ears are the "most sensitive measuring equipment known to man" is just a myth. A myth just like that we only use 10% of our brains, or a dozen other similar ones.
| quote: | | I can't imagine how these things would effect the sound of a system, but I don't know that they don't work and neither do you. |
No, I don't know how they work because I have neither conducted nor reviewed a properly controlled test to determine that. I can surmise, however, based on the body of knowledge gathered thus far and applying the tenet of Occam's Razor, that the effect you perceive is due to psychological mechanisms, not physical ones. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | A myth just like that we only use 10% of our brains, or a dozen other similar ones. |
It seems to me someone's working hard to prove a myth...
Cheers,;) |
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| Magura |
I just went through the Shakti homepage. I have never seen so much fraud concentrated in one place....we are talking 100% BS, please Frank, go have a look......im sure you will agree.
http://www.shakti-innovations.com/buy.htm
Magura:) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | I just went through the Shakti homepage. I have never seen so much fraud concentrated in one place....we are talking 100% BS, please Frank, go have a look......im sure you will agree. |
I had a quick glance this morning...
Whether or not people consider it as fraudulous or not is besides the point here IMO.
Tom copied one for his own use and seems convinced that it works.
Don't think for a minute that I'm on a mission sending people out to buy whatever contraption is offered...
It's just that when you can experiment at your own leasure and find yourself in occurence with what is claimed about something I feel it's worth mentioning it to others.
Conversely, when people try something out and notice that it just doesn't work as advertised it would be nice to be informed about it as well as it would save others the waste of time and materials...
Cheers,;) |
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| till |
| for everyone what he deserves... |
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| RHosch |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
It seems to me someone's working hard to prove a myth...
Cheers,;) |
Is it just me, or do others notice that I seem to be a favorite target these days for tactless insults and mudslinging? You know, it's one thing to express your belief that someone is incorrect... and I would encourage that as long as some reasoning is given as to why. I can appreciate tom's certainty that he has heard something different but see no need for copping an attitude because of it. And frank, I have no problem with you believing in all sorts of bizarre things (though I also have no problem telling others I think they are bizarre... ;)), but there really is no point in questioning someone's intellect just because they share a different viewpoint. It's one thing to be ignorant, it's quite another to be stupid, and I don't appreciate the inferrance of the latter in this case.
I suppose if you can't argue with someone's logic just throw a little dirt their way to cloud the issue. |
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| SY |
RHosch, there's a time when it's best to smile, nod, and back slooooowly out the door.
Just saw an ad on TV for the magical Q-ray bracelet (www.qray.com). It's ionized!!!! Only $19.95!!! And btw, if you've never been through Alex Chiu's site (www.alexchiu.com), it's worth a few minutes. |
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| Magura |
RHosch:
This thread have been mud slinging most of the time, Tom started out being rather rude sometime yesterday, PD went personal and so forth...its not just you whos getting personal attacks. PD pretty much called me a narrowminded moron yesterday for not swallowing this stuff raw.
Take this thread for what it is.
Magura:) |
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