| Chris8sirhC |
| I'm just curious, but what frequency range does an electric bass guitar normaly operate within? I once remember someone posting a graph of the frequency ranges of various clasical instruments and the human voice, but i dont think it had anything about electric bass guitars. |
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| Centauri |
Low E on a 4 string bass is usually about 41Hz, and the low B on a 5 string around 31Hz fundamentals. Figure another 3 octaves in fundamentals plus another octave or two in harmonics, and the range is actually quite wide.
Cheers |
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| phase_accurate |
| quote: | | in fundamentals plus another octave or two in harmonics, |
Modern bass-guitars with roundwound strings definitely generate harmonics above 5 kHz. Only players with bad taste (like guitar players playing a bass every now and then ...... :devilr: ) don't care about the reproduction of these.
Regards
Charles |
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| Chris8sirhC |
| about how high above 5 khz do they go?? up to 6khz? 15?? |
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| sreten |
Slap style bass goes as high as you'll let it.
Plectrum style not too far behind.
Fingernail edge just as high but much lower treble levels.
Fingerstyle takes off most of the top end.
The instrument (electric bass) can produce up to 20KHz.
Played live or recorded its filtered / compressed / limited.
:) sreten. |
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| flieslikeabeagl |
I think it depends heavily on playing style and the actual instrument. As pointed out, the low end is well defined - around 30 Hz for a 5-string bass tuned to standard pitch, around 40 Hz for a 4-string bass tuned to standard pitch.
My cheapo Fender Squire bass guitar has passive pickups with lots of turns of fine wire, making for lots of series inductance and series resistance. Combine that with the capacitance of even a short length of guitar cable, not to mention the input capacitance of anything it is plugged into, and you have a permanent low-pass filter built into the system which makes it very unlikely that there is any significant output above 5kHz from this guitar. If you play it the way James Jamerson played on all those great Motown songs - the classic fat, round tone - I would be surprised if there was any significant output above 1 kHz.
If, on the other hand, you have a bass with active pickups which are designed with lower impedance and then buffered by the onboard electronics, and you combine that with a heavily percussive style of playing (lots of slaps and pops), you can expect more treble output. I am still somewhat skeptical that there is much output beyond 5 kHz, but then again I've been wrong before and will undoubtedly be wrong again. I will volunteer to eat my hat, though, if anyone shows me a stock bass guitar and playing style that generates significant (defined as, say, 10% or more of total RMS signal) output above 15 kHz!
Put it this way: if you play your bass through a speaker that does not include a tweeter, and you like the sound if it just fine, that means you're probably not hearing much above a kHz or two, and don't miss it. Those big bass-guitar sized loudspeaker drivers don't usually have much output beyond a kHz or two. In fact a healthy 8-inch woofer may not go much above a kHz, and a 12 or 15 inch driver will usually top out at an even lower frequency, though this does depend somewhat on things like cone material and moving mass. I remember measuring an 8" driver that had its first cone breakup mode at 1 kHz, followed by very rapid roll-off except for the odd spike here and there in the frequency range as other break-up modes peaked.
-Flieslikeabeagle |
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| sreten |
True and not true.
Most bass processing removes excessive top end.
But a bass heavy tonal balance doesn't mean no top end.
Playing live excessive top end is generally cut by the speakers.
As with all things a hifi speaker with good high midrange resolution
is needed for high quality reproduction of bass, it needs to be able to
let the subdued midrange clues for the edges of bass notes through.
With such a hifi speaker it is also obvious when bass is rolled off.
To go back to the original question - IMO the frequency range is
irrelevant - nearly every instrument needs clean accurate full
range reproduction to sound real.
And it becomes obvious what recording filtering has been applied.
:) sreten. |
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| DogWater |
| Just wanted to add a thought. An artificial harmonic is when you lay a finger on a string at a particular position on the neck without pushing down into the fretboard. At the 22nd fret, on a 35 1/2 inch scale neck, the artificial harmonic rings very high, in the 5-10k range. The absolute bottom end is DropC tuning. Anything below that and it sounds like mud. Therfore I believe the actual "frequency range" is 25Hz-10kHz. The strings themselves are not able to efficiently vibrate any faster or slower. With that, most bassists, like myself only care to play from 35Hz(E-String DropD) through about 500-600Hz(about the 19th or 21st fret on the G-String). Hope this helps |
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| sreten |
| quote: | Originally posted by DogWater
Just wanted to add a thought. An artificial harmonic is when you lay a finger on a string at a particular position on the neck without pushing down into the fretboard. At the 22nd fret, on a 35 1/2 inch scale neck, the artificial harmonic rings very high, in the 5-10k range. The absolute bottom end is DropC tuning. Anything below that and it sounds like mud. Therfore I believe the actual "frequency range" is 25Hz-10kHz. The strings themselves are not able to efficiently vibrate any faster or slower. With that, most bassists, like myself only care to play from 35Hz(E-String DropD) through about 500-600Hz(about the 19th or 21st fret on the G-String). Hope this helps |
Well IMO fairly inaccurate.
Artificial harmonics are nowhere near the 5KHz to 10Khz range.
(Your definition also seems to describe normal harmonics)
5 string basses are typically tuned to Low B.(E,A,D,G)
The range of fundamental notes of a bass is irrelevant to the
frequency range of sounds it produces with different playing
styles.
But I agree with ~ 30Hz (low B) to ~ 10KHz.
:) sreten. |
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| Maelfactor |
Chiming in here as another bass player.
I have tried a lot of stuff with my cabs, eqs, crossovers and whatnot to get a decent sound. "This one time," I did the math to find the highest frettable note's frequency on my Gibson, and then cut anything above that freq out of the signal path. It sounded like mud. Several people here have already said it, but even though a bass guitar's main frequencies are down between 40Hz and 160Hz, if you cut ANY frequency out of the mix, you lose definition. The only time you won't pick up string harmonics that are +10Khz is if you play with flat wound strings like some jazz players. And even then I'd bet they're there, just not at a level you'll hear in the reproduction.
But... A lot of classic bass cabs didn't have speakers capable of replicating those high frequencies. Most modern cabs have piezo tweeters so you hear clearly the pick and slap harmonics that are above 5KHz.
My predisposition though is for simple, non-tweetered cabinets. My home made cabinet will be a 2x12 vented coaxial. My very first bass cab was a Fender 2x15 closed back.
It just depends on what sounds you want to hear coming out of the cabinet. I'm happy with lack of 5KHz+ (I'm sure my current cabs reproduce higher than 5KHz, but the speakers are only rated 50 - 3,500Hz so it probably isn't "clear" like a tweeter would make it).
Oops, tangentville. |
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| THC |
Hi everyone ,
I Builded a nice Cab few months ago for my Bass rig .
Mostly because I did not liked what I was trying at the music stores , and because not liking the sound of a tweeter (too harsh).
So I wanted a woofer to deliver all the spectrum of my bass ,a 4 strings normaly tuned (EADG) MusicMan.
Not willing to play with crossovers and to keep the things as simple as possible , I looked for the broader bandwith I could find .
And founded all those quality in this whoofer :
the Eminence B102...usable Bandwidth (FS to -3db) 40Hz-9Kz.
and it stays sweet sounding...finger playing or pop and slap playing. |
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| Zeleuo |
The AVERAGE human ear perceives frequencies from 20 to 20,000hz.
Audiophiles hear even more.One right here.
To answer your question correctly it would depend on who you are,& how you hear.
Beyond that even though MOST people donŐt hear below 20hz that doesnŐt mean that frequencies below 20hz arenŐt perceived by even the MOST average person.TheyŐre simply not heard.
A 18hz BagEnd will LITTERLY make most people HURL!!!
IŐm not kidding if youŐre within 20Ő youŐll puke UNCONTROLLABLY.
Although you may not hear below 20 get close enough,& youŐll **** sure FEEL it!
YES FROM A BASS GUITAR |
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| pinkmouse |
Zeleuo, calm down! :)
Most people can't hear up to 20K, after about 18 or 19 years old, the human ear starts to lose a lot of top end, by the time you're 30 odd, 16-18K is the max.
This is actually used in a simple device to stop teenagers congregating outside areas where they have been troublesome. A speaker produces 20K tones, which most older people can't hear, yet youngsters can perceive, and find subliminally uncomfortable, so they move away from the area. A bit like those ultrasonic pest scarers! ;) |
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| kexik |
| quote: | Originally posted by pinkmouse
Zeleuo, calm down! :)
Most people can't hear up to 20K, after about 18 or 19 years old, the human ear starts to lose a lot of top end, by the time you're 30 odd, 16-18K is the max.
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irelevant! even old guys can recognize missing transient signals at 20kHz, although they can hardly hear 10kHz sine from signal generator! human ear is very tricky organ and it's very difficult to cheat...
infos you believe, are coming from digital dark age... that's why we have 192kHz dacs today ;) |
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| pinkmouse |
| quote: | Originally posted by kexik
human ear is very tricky organ and it's very difficult to cheat... |
The human ear is actually very easy to fool, stereo hi-fi being an ideal example. |
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| Peter M. |
| quote: | Originally posted by phase_accurate
Modern bass-guitars with roundwound strings definitely generate harmonics above 5 kHz. Only players with bad taste (like guitar players playing a bass every now and then ...... :devilr: ) don't care about the reproduction of these.
Regards
Charles |
As a guitarplayer with bad taste and playing a bass every now and then, I can confirm your findings
;)
Bassguitars do generate harmonics and transients well above 5k. I tried this with a tweeter crossed 5-10khz(ish) , soundwise- snaps became more snappy, got better definition(also to the low notes), you also hear more string noise from changing position on the fretboard.
I also tried a crappy piezo tweet, for some straaange reason it sounded like ****. |
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| Geenius |
| Another bass player here! At the moment I am building a new bass-cab. It will use an 18" woofer, a 10" midwoofer and a 1" horn tweeter. I hope to get a frequency response from 40Hz (I play 4 string electric bass and acoustic upright bass) up to 20kHz. I want the speaker to produce an extremely neutral sound so that my double bass will sound like wood and strings, and not just low notes.:) |
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| Le Basseur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Geenius
Another bass player here! At the moment I am building a new bass-cab. It will use an 18" woofer, a 10" midwoofer and a 1" horn tweeter. I hope to get a frequency response from 40Hz (I play 4 string electric bass and acoustic upright bass) up to 20kHz. I want the speaker to produce an extremely neutral sound so that my double bass will sound like wood and strings, and not just low notes.:) |
...and another bass player reporting on duty,Sir!:D
I don't want to rain on your parade,but your project is highly probable not to give you the desired results...here's why:
1.A three-way bass cab is a little too much either for bass guitar or double-bass.The existence of a 18'' woofer might ensure a psihical confort but IMHO it's way too big and slow...except if you want that "Acoustic horns" sound of the 70's.For almost every situation,a 15''+2x10'' or a good 2x12'' is OK.
2.I'd not expect "wood & strings" from a 3-way box because you'll need to use some passive filters for the mid and tweeter,wich means different phase responses between the three drivers...hence,more "mud".(...been there,done that....too many times).
3.Are sure you want a heavy,60+ kilos cabinet to haul around?Just think about your back....now maybe you can and are willing to perform such a sport,but look a little farther....when you'll be 50,you'll surely feel all the consequences,being good or bad.
If I were you,I'd go for a good pair of coaxial 12s (as someone already suggested here).In a well-built/proper cab,they perform wonderfully,especially with a double-bass.
...or,go buy a Roland Bass Cube 100 or one of those fancy AER amps!:D
HTH!
Regards, |
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| Le Basseur |
| quote: | [i]
This is actually used in a simple device to stop teenagers congregating outside areas where they have been troublesome. A speaker produces 20K tones, which most older people can't hear, yet youngsters can perceive, and find subliminally uncomfortable, so they move away from the area. [/B] |
Wow....thanks for the idea...!I have my "clients" in the neighbourhood,so I'll give it a try!:D
...ummmmm....so,teenagers and rats......
:smash:
(The only drawback is that I have to go from home when that tweeter starts playing...a 20KHz kills me also,even if I'm 40 now!)
Regards, |
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| phase_accurate |
| quote: | | The only drawback is that I have to go from home when that tweeter starts playing...a 20KHz kills me also,even if I'm 40 now |
The simple solution would be a remote control !
Regards
Charles |
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| Geenius |
| quote: | Originally posted by Le Basseur
...and another bass player reporting on duty,Sir!:D
I don't want to rain on your parade,but your project is highly probable not to give you the desired results...here's why:
1.A three-way bass cab is a little too much either for bass guitar or double-bass.The existence of a 18'' woofer might ensure a psihical confort but IMHO it's way too big and slow...except if you want that "Acoustic horns" sound of the 70's.For almost every situation,a 15''+2x10'' or a good 2x12'' is OK.
2.I'd not expect "wood & strings" from a 3-way box because you'll need to use some passive filters for the mid and tweeter,wich means different phase responses between the three drivers...hence,more "mud".(...been there,done that....too many times).
3.Are sure you want a heavy,60+ kilos cabinet to haul around?Just think about your back....now maybe you can and are willing to perform such a sport,but look a little farther....when you'll be 50,you'll surely feel all the consequences,being good or bad.
If I were you,I'd go for a good pair of coaxial 12s (as someone already suggested here).In a well-built/proper cab,they perform wonderfully,especially with a double-bass.
...or,go buy a Roland Bass Cube 100 or one of those fancy AER amps!:D
HTH!
Regards, |
Hi Le Basseur,
Thanks for the input but I must disagree. :D
1). I have played on many 12" and 15" systems and the physical presence of a double bass just doesn't come across on "small" woofers. That's why I want to try an 18", at home for my hifi system I use two 21" woofers and they give the sound I am looking for, unfortunatly 21"-ers are less portable than 18". The 18" driver I have in mind has an acceleration factor of 178, comparable with many normal 15" woofers.
2). I am looking for a natural tonal balance, i.e. a flat frequency response. There are two ways to achieve this. Either using a single driver which has to be equalized or via a hifi approach using multiple drivers and a passive crossover. Both add extra phase shifts. My current system uses one 12" woofer, two 7" midranges and a 1" tweeter connected together with a 2.5-way passive crossover. I am often complimented about the good sound quality.
3). All the drivers have a neodynium magnet, even the 18" woofer weighs only 6,6 Kg.
I've tried a Roland Bass Cube 100 and it sounded like ......(fill in your favourite four letter word).:D
I also have a simple light weight combo with a single 12" woofer, fine for mild amplification but it also sounds like the Roland. |
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| Zeleuo |
Hey Tony,
Have you considered the recent Carvin BRX 1x18Ó? Although youŐre only wanting to go to 40hz sheŐs tuned for 24hz so youŐd have MORE than enough room for proper attenuation,& youŐd be LOADED for Bear should you change your mind,or taste latter on.
Better to have it than not.
I donŐt relate to the Double Bass thing,but then again I donŐt Hunt with a Muzzleloader,wipe my Tail with a Corncob,or take my Deceased pets to the Taxidermist either.
However you are ABSOLUTELY correct in regards to FULL Bass transmission,in relation to Driver size.ThatŐs why so many Bassists are pleasantly surprised at the true FULLNESS,(that theyŐve never heard before) of the humble Gstring once they play through one of the 12Ó Aguilar CabŐs,(1x,2x,or 4x) for the first time.
The same holds true for the Larger strings.What the 12Ó does for the G,a 18Ó does for E.
4x10Ős are popular because Fender made them popular eons ago,& 15Ős are so popular because 10Ős are SO lacking.For some reason a LOT of people choose to live in the past,in spite of clear advancement.
The reality is 10Ős simply donŐt cut it!
So Buy,or Build your 18Ós.Run some SERIOUS wattage through em,Rearrange the Drummers Kit while he attempts to play it,Shake that SNOT Nosed Guitarist,(and his rig) clean off the stage,& unbolt ALL the seats in the first five rows.
Ignore the Micro Minded.YouŐre a Bassist,not a Tenor so play Bass Tones!!!:devilr: |
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| Geenius |
Update: I have bought a Ciare 18.00Ndw , a Ciare 10.50Ndw and a Monacor MHD-172 tweeter and mounted them in a closed test box. Last Sunday I had a gig with my new 5 string bass-guitar. I still have to design a crossover and the tweeter was connected by a simple 3rd oder crossover set to a high 5kHz but the result with fresh out of the box drivers is quite promising. Deep solid powerfull bass even being a closed design and nice attack and articulation in the mid-band. Now its time to start on a real crossover and maybe some reflex ports to bring out the low B a little better.:)
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| Brion55 |
| Have you thought of going with an active crossover feeding two power amps? |
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| Geenius |
| Yep, too expensive.:) |
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| phase_accurate |
| quote: | | Yep, too expensive. |
Maybe - but waaaaaaaay too cool to dismiss !!
Regards
Charles |
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| Geenius |
| All donations would be highly appreciated!:D |
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| Brion55 |
It's not as expensive as you might think and the results are well worth it.
You can build a nice 18db/octave crossover for less than $30. and run it into a stereo amp, using one side for the highs and the other for the lows. Stereo sound reinforcement amps aren't all that expensive these days. The "high" end could then have a passive crossover to run the tweeter.
Just a thought... |
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| elementx |
This is for standard guitar, the standard tunings...the picture might help too...
FREQ PIANO STRING/FRET
164.81 E3 6-0
174.61 F3 6-1
185.00 F#3 6-2
196.00 G3 6-3
207.65 G#3 6-4
220.00 A3 5-0
233.08 A#3 5-1
245.94 B3 5-2
261.63 C4 5-3
277.18 C#4 5-4
293.66 D4 4-0
311.13 D#4 4-1
329.63 E4 4-2
349.23 F4 4-3
369.99 F#4 4-4
392.00 G4 3-0
415.30 G#4 3-1
440.00 A4 3-2
466.16 A#4 3-3
493.88 B4 2-0
523.25 C5 2-1
554.37 C#5 2-2
587.33 D5 2-3
622.25 D#5 2-4
659.26 E5 1-0
698.46 F5 1-1
739.99 F#5 1-2
784.00 G5 1-3
830.61 G#5 1-4
880.00 A5 1-5
932.33 A#5 1-6
987.77 B5 1-7
1046.50 C6 1-8
1108.70 C#6 1-9
1174.70 D6 1-10
1244.50 D#6 1-11
1318.50 E6 1-12
1396.60 F6 1-13
1480.00 F#6 1-14
1568.00 G6 1-15
1661.20 G#6 1-16
1760.00 A6 1-17
1867.70 A#6 1-18
1975.50 B6 1-19
2093.00 C7 1-20
2217.50 C#7 1-21
2349.30 D7 1-22
2489.00 D#7 1-23
2637.00 E7 1-24 |
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| hyperpsyched |
and I quote...
"The AVERAGE human ear perceives frequencies from 20 to 20,000hz.
Audiophiles hear even more.One right here."
- Zuleuo
OMG Zeleuo... that is the funniest thing I have ever read.
I had no idea most audiophiles were DOGS!
Why then must audiophiles be dogs? Simple logic really:
IF dogs can hear frequencies above 20 KHz,
AND all audiophiles, regardless of age, can hear frequencies above 20 KHz,
THEN all audiophiles are dogs.
Voila!
So to improve my hearing I can simply buy a 3000 Euro power cable. Hah, I too will acquire this elusive super-hearing and thus join this exclusive club of audiophile... uh, well... super-hearers!
It gets better! It is also a well known fact that audiophiles have much greater sexual stamina and are generally able to jump over tall buildings in a single bound, even if they tend to lack an understanding of the fundamental basics of both biology and physics. But then who cares when you have a Shakti "The Stone" on every audio component in your home! Me, I have to resort to common kitty litter on my equipment.
Really... just teasing! But please, post more more of the same :)
As for the whole Bass guitar frequency range thing... no idea. |
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| Brett |
| And all of that has exactly what to do with bass guitar amplification? |
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| hyperpsyched |
Well Brett, it has sweet FA to do with bass amplification. But since the incredibly pretentious and mind-bogglingly condescending original post also had nothing to do with the bass instrument...
Simply exercising my right to refute a lemma that claims there is a correlation between the amount of money you spend on stereo equipment and the auditory frequency range you are capable of detecting. This is also true of the amount of money you spend on your bass guitar. Spending more on an instrument will not allow you to hear lower frequencies than you can hear right now. |
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| phase_accurate |
Did anyone claim that a bass gets lower the more expensive it was ?
But there is definitely a correlation between the frequency range reproduced by a speaker system and the effort put into it. There is a physical relationship that can't be denied and this is telling us that for a given size the efficiency of your speaker is proportional to the cutoff-frequency^3.
That's the reason why those 4x10" speakers are quite poular: They offer quite a lot of SPL for a given box-size and weight combined with good upper-end extension. This is at the cost of low-end extension. There are not many instrument-speakers around that can properly reproduce the low E of an ordinary bass, let alone the B of a low-tuned five-string bass. If you want to properly reproduce these as well then you'll nedd to move quite some air which means larger boxes, larger drivers and more power. And this will definitely not come for free.
Furthermore if you want a modern bass sound you'll have to have suitable high-end extension as well. And this wouldn't come for free either.
Regards
Charles |
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| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by hyperpsyched
Well Brett, it has sweet FA to do with bass amplification. But since the incredibly pretentious and mind-bogglingly condescending original post also had nothing to do with the bass instrument...
Simply exercising my right to refute a lemma that claims there is a correlation between the amount of money you spend on stereo equipment and the auditory frequency range you are capable of detecting. This is also true of the amount of money you spend on your bass guitar. Spending more on an instrument will not allow you to hear lower frequencies than you can hear right now. |
No issue with the cost of gear vs hearing ability argument as I agree.
The LF response of a BG is determined in great part by the scale length (and consequent tuning) as this directly affects the fundamental and 2H response and therefore measured and perceived strength of the lowest notes. Construction, eg rigidity and the pickups and electronics also have a major influence. I have a lot of BG's, from boutiques from boutiques to cheapies, and lots in between (tending towards the lower end of the cost spectrum and secondhand).
Cheers |
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| FastEddy |
This is great! This is exactly what I wanted to find out about: bass guitar amplification range.
I am building a healthy solid state power amp for bass ... and what I'm getting is that the freq response of the amp should be from ~15 Htz through at least 15K Htz., with ~10 Htz through 20K being preferable. (The amp will actually pass 10 to 25k without too much degradation = +/- 1 db through this range).
The question now becomes the pre-amp. I had intended to build a tube pre-amp and a power MOSFET power amp = a hybred combination ... with switched filters for changes to the upper end output.
Comments? ... heckles? |
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| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by FastEddy
This is great! This is exactly what I wanted to find out about : bass guitar amplification range.
I am building a healthy solid state power amp for bass ... and what I'm getting is that the freq response of the amp should be from ~15 Htz through at least 15K Htz., with ~10 Htz through 20K being preferable. (The amp will actually pass 10 to 25k without too much degradation = +/- 1 db through this range).
The question now becomes the pre-amp. I had intended to build a tube pre-amp and a power MOSFET power amp = a hybred combination ... with switched filters for changes to the upper end output.
Comments? ... heckles? |
Not many basses tune below B (30Hz). Even your typical 34" scale bass doesn't have as strong a fundamental level below about open A with the 2H dominating. Changes a bit above there though. At the top end, there's really not a lot above 8k, certainly wouldn't be heard in the mix.
SS power and tube pre is a very good idea IMO as it gets you most of both worlds. As you're building your own poweramp, perhaps incorporate some variable frequency selective adjustable feedback a la the Peavey 400 tube head, and I think you'll have a rig that many would be able to tell had some SS in it.
Being devil's advocate, if you haven't started in the SS power yet, buy a pro amp as they're cheap, or build around UCD or 41Hz Amp modules.
There was some interest on Talkbass a couple of weeks back regarding a tube pre design for the few DIY types there. Nothing's come of it yet, but I have been sketching ideas. So far, I'd like to keep it simple with a toploogy like
Input - gain - passive tone stack - gain - VC - balanced out probably with a seperate DI and bright, deep etc switches and some HF and LF type tone controls to roll off each end as required. Should give plenty of tonal variation in 3 stages. If I need any more, I'd add an FX loop in later.
I don't intend using 12A_7 series tubes and want to incorporate some design details that I don't see in MI gear, but are standard in good 'phile stuff like quiet power supplies. |
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| brsanko |
| I hope this is relvent. I'm building a recording studio in my basement and am currently looking at designs for a bass cab. I don't need it to be terribly loud as I will just be recording with it. The thing that puzzles me is that most drivers made for basses only go down to 50Hz or so. Seems to me it would be imparitive in this aplication to extend at lest to 30Hz. Can someone tell me wher to find a driver that will do this? preferably a 12". |
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| Nigel Goodwin |
| quote: | Originally posted by brsanko
I hope this is relvent. I'm building a recording studio in my basement and am currently looking at designs for a bass cab. I don't need it to be terribly loud as I will just be recording with it. The thing that puzzles me is that most drivers made for basses only go down to 50Hz or so. Seems to me it would be imparitive in this aplication to extend at lest to 30Hz. Can someone tell me wher to find a driver that will do this? preferably a 12". |
You probably won't find one, and don't need one anyway, as you have already found, bass cabs don't usually go that low (or need to) - and recording of bass guitar is almost always done by DI, so the cab doesn't matter.
If you're wanting a specific miked cab sound, then you need that specific cab anyway. |
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| brsanko |
| Well I've read in several places that the fundamental frequency of the lowest string on a 5 string bass is at 30Hz so if one wants to reproduce that note they would need to go that low. I've found my driver though it'a an Eminence legend bp102 the specs say it goes down to 40Hz but the T/S parameters tell a different story. By "DI" I am assuming you mean direct in. So are you saying that in most recording environments they don use a bass cab at all? Wouldn't that then require the bass player to wear monioring headphones so he could hear himself play? Seems to me that would be a pain in the ***. I am totally inexperianced at recording but I'm learning fast. |
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| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by brsanko
Well I've read in several places that the fundamental frequency of the lowest string on a 5 string bass is at 30Hz so if one wants to reproduce that note they would need to go that low. |
Low B is 30Hz, but if you look at the spectrum from a B, you'll find the fundamental is quite a bit lower than 2H and up. Most of the 'tone' comes from the harmonic spectrum, not the fundamental. You don't need a cab flat to 30Hz; many bassists use 4x10's and few of them have a -3dB point below 70Hz, no matter what the manufacyurers specs are.
30Hz flat onstage will equate to mud*. My 18" LF cab is tuned to 40Hz, but with the port blocked is 70Hz and often gives a better sound.
[| quote: | Originally posted by brsanko
By "DI" I am assuming you mean direct in. So are you saying that in most recording environments they don use a bass cab at all? Wouldn't that then require the bass player to wear monioring headphones so he could hear himself play? Seems to me that would be a pain in the ***. I am totally inexperianced at recording but I'm learning fast. |
Much bass is recorded soley through a DI or through a pre with a line out. Some people do use cabs to record through.
You're going to need monitoring cans to hear the other tracks you're recording to anyway. When I worked in a studio and did the bass parts for ads, I sat in the control room, plugged into a DI and the desk and played there using the monitors to hear both myself and the other tracks.
If you do mic up a cab in the studio, I find best results with a small cab and amp, so I can push it and get some distortion at lowish volumes. An Ampeg B15N would be a good candidate. Or DIY a small tube amp; 15W is usually plenty.
* I know you're talking about studio, just adding the points for reference. |
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| brsanko |
| quote: | | Why? It's very low efficiency and the power handling isn't all that great so you're going to need a few to make decent SPL onstage. |
I'm building a recording studio, not going to be on stage. Small room don't need massive spls. strictly for recording I will probably do alot of DI bass recording too but it would be nice to provide the option. I know the music I listen to has plenty of information below 50Hz if it isn't coming from the bass where is it coming from? In this situation that I described connected to at least a 50W amp is there any problem with the driver I've selected. |
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| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by brsanko
I know the music I listen to has plenty of information below 50Hz if it isn't coming from the bass where is it coming from? |
The ear/brain is great at adding in missing fundamentals.
Do you have a guitar amp? If so then mic that up and mix with a DI signal. Often works very well, especially if I'm in a bit of a Lemmy mood.
If you're building a studio (I've built several) there's a million other things to do, so a purely recording bass amp/cab would be about the last thing on my list. |
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| Nigel Goodwin |
| quote: | Originally posted by brsanko
So are you saying that in most recording environments they don use a bass cab at all? Wouldn't that then require the bass player to wear monioring headphones so he could hear himself play? |
Perhaps you've noticed?, people in recording studios often wear headphones? :D
It's more common to record a bass guitar via DI, so if you do use a cab for letting him hear himself, it's not part of the recording process anyway. Most (almost all?) bass cabs won't reproduce the lowest fundamentals, so you don't need to try and provide one that does.
And like I said before, if you've got a bass player who wants his cab miking up, rather than DI, because he's trying for a particular sound, he's going to want to use HIS (or her) cab, not your's. |
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| brsanko |
So what driver (10"or12") do you recomend as the best all around for bass in a recording environment.
| quote: | | If you're building a studio (I've built several) there's a million other things to do, so a purely recording bass amp/cab would be about the last thing on my list. |
ah..but it is on the list. Trust me I'm doing all sorts of research on all sorts of topics. This just happened to be the one I had some questions on at the moment. |
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| brsanko |
| Another thing I don't understand is if using a hifi speaker with a flat FR for a bass speaker sounds terrible, wouldn't running the bass directly into your console (about as flat as you can get) sound equally bad. Or is the some speacial equalization that is used on basses run DI? |
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| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by brsanko
So what driver (10"or12") do you recomend as the best all around for bass in a recording environment. |
I personally wouldn't do a 10 or 12, but would vote for a JBL K140 in 120L ported. An EV EVM15L in a similar sort of box or an EVM12L in something smaller and ported (haven't run numbers on these ones) is another option. None of these are particularly expensive secondhand. The idea would be to make something like an Ampeg B15 type arrangement. Smallish tube amp that can be driven for a bit of distortion and the slightly rounder tone of the 15. Mixed with a DI signal it can make for a very rich combination. SS amps all sound the same to me and won't do enough to change the tone enough to be worthwhile IMNSHO.
Otherwise as was suggested above, use whatever the bass player has and likes. Bassists, esp if someone really wants to mic a cab is likely very conscious of their tone and how to get it. |
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| brsanko |
| any suggestions for the amp |
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| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by brsanko
Another thing I don't understand is if using a hifi speaker with a flat FR for a bass speaker sounds terrible, wouldn't running the bass directly into your console (about as flat as you can get) sound equally bad. Or is the some speacial equalization that is used on basses run DI? |
I've played my bass through lots of hifi speakers and monitors and it sounded OK, I just don't think I'd bother to mic them.
Don't recall trying it as a bass specific cab.| quote: | Originally posted by brsanko
any suggestions for the amp |
I've been thinking SY's Red Light District amp (search here) could be a cracker though I'd experiment with cathode bias as well and maybe trioding the EL84's.
For a preamp, copy something you like, maybe a couple of different designs as it's very cheap to make it 3 or 4 channels once you have the PSU, case and output iron. A few more tubes and passives don't add much.
Otherwise, I'm quite fond of this cct, with some mods (6EU7 is a 12AX7 with different pinout) |
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| brsanko |
| not quite ready to tackle building my own amp quite yet(though it is a dream of mine). I think for now I'm going to build the guitar (vintage 30 with open back) and bass speaker cabs and buy the amps. Tubes would be great but I am on a rather limited budget. I hope to do both guitar and bass speakers and amps for about $500 is this possible or reasonable? |
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| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by brsanko
not quite ready to tackle building my own amp quite yet(though it is a dream of mine). I think for now I'm going to build the guitar (vintage 30 with open back) and bass speaker cabs and buy the amps. Tubes would be great but I am on a rather limited budget. I hope to do both guitar and bass speakers and amps for about $500 is this possible or reasonable? |
I could build it all for that. A small tube amp isn't that expensive. The ones I suggested are 15W and don't need any expensive parts. Best of all, build it in a big box (like a head) and you can use the same poweamp section, with different pre's for bass and geetar.
However, as you're time and budget limited, buy the amps and drivers secondhand; pick the amp well and you'll be able to resell later for little loss. Maybe a small (tube) combo guitar amp you like the sound of, with a clean channel too, and a build a bass cab: use the amp for both Would be the cheapest and simplest option I guess. But I don't buy guitar amps (I build guitar and harp amps), and am in Australia, so no real clue re secondhand prices. I must admit, I have a weakness for Peavey gear.
When you get the guitar amp, try it as is with bass at sensible levels and see how you like it. You might be surprised, esp when mixed with a DI signal. You don't need to close mic it either, sometimes further out into the room will give a lot of warmth and natural (sort of) reverb. |
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| brsanko |
| Not really time limited. Been dreaming of building tube amps for a long time. done some reading on the subject mostly hifi aplications. maybe this is my time to jump in with both feet and try it. One small problem, I don't know how to solder. Is it difficult to learn? any suggestions. |
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| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by brsanko
Not really time limited. Been dreaming of building tube amps for a long time. done some reading on the subject mostly hifi aplications. maybe this is my time to jump in with both feet and try it. One small problem, I don't know how to solder. Is it difficult to learn? any suggestions. |
Jump. It's a lot of fun.
I learnt to solder years ago at college. Not sure how to suggest you learn without someone present to show you. It's not hard to learn how to do it passably well.
Perhaps post a thread and ask. There must be a resource for it somewhere |
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| Twaksak |
I recently made a bass amp for a friend bass player.
Solid state with dual power subwoofer amplifiers. Bought speaker locally from a reputable manufacturor. 2 x 15" Hybrid speakers. Measuring Thiele/Small parameters the resonating frequency was measured at 31 HZ in free air using small signal. I build these into a cabinet divided in 2 x 72 liter cabinets. Pre amp using 3 way frequency setting that is quiet when all are turned to 0. Bi amping identical speakers.
The friend is very happy. |
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| htgeek |
@elementx: A guitar is an octave below what you posted.
The range of a 24-fret guitar, standard tuning, is 82.4 Hz (E2; low-E string, open) to 1318.5 Hz (E6; high-E string, 24th fret).
Speaking strictly of the fingered notes, of course. |
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| Jules |
Hi, guys, yet another bass plucker,
I've just fitted 2 x 10 inch Eminence Kappa pro drivers to
my Ashdown combo, fab sound and massive power handling , I play through a Korg Pandora into the fx return of the Ashdown to bypass the preamp.
Jules |
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| FastEddy |
Of interest to any bass player or stage performer with a DIY yen :
" ... Acoustic Speaker Cabinets
Various size cabinets, 1 x 15", 2 x 15", Some bass cabinets--- All Unloaded. Price per cabinet - but will to talk turkey on the lot! Shipping from Florida.
http://www.gearsource.com/products.cfm?pkid=731
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Overture Speaker Cabinets
2 x 12", 2 x 15", 2" Horn - Unloaded. Each cabinet is ready to be loaded. All boxes Carpeted and include Wheels. Shipping from Florida.
http://www.gearsource.com/products.cfm?pkid=744 ... "
I get this ad blurb every day in the email. Occasionally these guys have some real deals ... :bigeyes: |
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| shiverbassist |
I have been playing in bands since 69... currently am playing thru an acoustic 320B w/ sunn 2/15 (loaded with evm15l) and a 4x10 top cabinet loaded with emmineince guitar speakers(more clarity than 10" woofers) this thing is extremely loud and also great sounding... ive played through ampeg b15 and fender bassman as well as some carvin equipment and a sunn sonaro , a sunn coliseum (twin folded horn 15") and by far the loudest was an old acoustic 4 15... I have found with out exception the tube amps have a far better presence Ie they reproduce the harmonics better...but the solid state amps usually will drown out a tube amp but sound a bit flat.....You see a lot of bands using the ampeg 8 10 cabinet but what you don't see is the subs of the main PA that do most of the bottom end repro..you can forcr the bottome with lots of power and hear some but a 15 " is the best..
biamp sounds the best and the red eye series from carvin is probably the most bit for the buck.. |
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| deluxedoc |
Hi,
Reviewing this thread I would offer the suggestion that the best bass response in an amp is often achieved with less deep bass frequency response. If you achieve true flat response to 30 or 40 hertz on stage, you will likely be displeased with the results.
Most likely, you have heard the lowest octave on stage reproduced with any amplitude. The mighty SVT reproduces virtually _no_ fundamental frequencies, providing strong second harmonics for each bass string instead. Virtually everyone smiles big time when hearing an SVT in full cry for the first time. Of all the available bass rigs, only the old Acoustic 360/370 series reproduced deep bass with any amplitude--through the use of horn-loaded 18-inch speakers.
In real, stage situations less bass is more bass--in terms of what we hear, as opposed to feel. Rolling off the fundamental and getting the second harmonic right is "key." Spending big bucks reproducing 30-40 hertz will cause a lot of rattling, but not produce a big return in "perceived bass." DIY-ers can rest assured that the big amp companies all tried big speaker, big enclosure amps behind the scenes before abandoning them as impractical. They create more problems than solutions onstage.
We will, of course, build away to produce something that isn't commercially available. When we take it up on stage, however, the headaches will begin. This is, of course, just an opinion.
Deluxedoc |
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| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by deluxedoc
Next best thing to Brett flying from "Down Under" to show you! |
Passport in hand..... PM me for where to send the tickets. |
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| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by deluxedoc
Hi,
Reviewing this thread I would offer the suggestion that the best bass response in an amp is often achieved with less deep bass frequency response. If you achieve true flat response to 30 or 40 hertz on stage, you will likely be displeased with the results. |
Depends how you achieve it. Executed correctly, in some instances it may be too much, especially some suspended stages, but it's easier to roll off than boost, and almost always sounds better.
| quote: | Originally posted by deluxedoc
Most likely, you have heard the lowest octave on stage reproduced with any amplitude. The mighty SVT reproduces virtually _no_ fundamental frequencies, providing strong second harmonics for each bass string instead. Virtually everyone smiles big time when hearing an SVT in full cry for the first time. Of all the available bass rigs, only the old Acoustic 360/370 series reproduced deep bass with any amplitude--through the use of horn-loaded 18-inch speakers. |
The SVT is not universally loved amongst bassists for it's tone or size. It's a 'classic' and fits with perceptions about what's good for many because that's what many have seen their fave players using: look at how many touring bands have stacks of stacks on stage to create the 'appearance', but many of which are empty boxes. I even saw one such setup recently where the band were using IEMs. Look at what the late, great JE was using before he died: he could have had anything fram any manufacturer in the world, most likely free, but there was no fridge.
Long ago there were few alternatives, and Ampeg had lots of endorsees so that's what we go used to seeing, but now there is better and smaller, especially if you want a wider bandwidth for other types of playing than dull P bass with flats type stuff, eg slapping, downtuning or ERBs.
FWIW, the fridge is about -3dB at 70Hz and the Acoustics didn't go any lower as the 'horn' is too short. Another case of loud 2H creating the impression of deep bass. You can do better in terms of real SPL over a wider bandwidth with no combing in a smaller form factor today.
| quote: | Originally posted by deluxedoc
DIY-ers can rest assured that the big amp companies all tried big speaker, big enclosure amps behind the scenes before abandoning them as impractical. They create more problems than solutions onstage. |
Do you really belive that? Most LF designs are seriously compromised by practical considerations, such as size, manufacturing cost, public perception etc, far, far more than actual performance considerations. With the cost (commercial incl labour etc for a manufacturer) and perception aspects removed the DIYer can easily best what is commersially available, and probably for less money, outside the US and secondhand markets. Most commercial products revolve around the how small, how cheap elements of design. There are a few exceptions, but they're few, often expensive, and definitely outside of the average musos field of view. |
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| deluxedoc |
| For what it's worth, I also play pipe organ. I've produced some serious low frequency energy into the listening room--down to the limit of hearing. On stage, playing with other instruments, the lowest octave of bass frequency energy can really kick up a fuss and produce all sorts of problems. After years and years of fooling around with different situations, "what I believe" is that you can really produce a _lot_ of useful, viable bass energy in a band situation with a solid, even presentation of the 2H, i.e., the standard output of "bass" instrument amplifiers/cabinets. For my upright and electric bass playing (4-string) I have over time moved to comparatively small 15" or 4X10" cabinets with satisfactory results. |
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| Brett |
| See pt 1 in previous post. |
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| deluxedoc |
| That's a point well taken. It's a comparatively expensive octave as octaves go. |
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| bassmeknik |
| Having played bass for 35 years (rock, pop, jazz, blues) I can tell you that 40-15Khz is about right for a 4 string bass and 29-15Khz for a low B tuned 5 string that thread about losing some high frequencies as you get older is true, however I can still percieve sounds up to about 16K-17Khz and I dont hear them coming from my bass check out www.philjonesbass.com |
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| bassmeknik |
| phil jones bass has a new perspective on bass responce. use lots of small (5 1/2") drivers in reflex boxes with full range capabilities. the stuff is very immpressive. The Amps are designed by G. Randy Sloan of Zus audio, a DIY guru and writer of several books on the subject. |
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| phase_accurate |
Personally I find the ubiquitous bass sound of today very fatigueing. The heavy use of compression (do the majority of these players know at all that a bass has attack and decay ?) combined with that exaggerated 60 to 120 Hz output is hurting my ears.
Bass for grown-ups has dynamics and is felt with your stomach and your flapping pants but definitely not with your chest alone.
Therefore I also belong to the camp that likes wide-range bass but still knowing that economics sometimes demand otherwise.
Regards
Charles |
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