| BrianGT |
Anyone interested in a stepped attenuator kit to go along with the gainclone kits? I have done some research, and the best solution seems to be the Elma stepped attenuator ladder seems like best switch out there to use. It has low contact pressure to make it silky smooth, compared to a standard 24-pole 4-pole shorting switch. Elma also makes the hardware that goes into the DACT attenuators. All contacts are gold.
I ordered one to try out, and I will post results when I get it. Would anyone here be interested in a kit with one of these and a resistor set? The single unit price for these is just over $90, but if I could get enough interest, the price for a kit could be under $90 (hopefully around $80) including all the resistors needed to put in it. This is probably the nicest attenuator on the market that you can buy, and probably the best solution out there for the gainclone kit. Expensive resistors could be substituted in the most used listening positions on the unit.
I will post details when I get the one that I ordered, and see if there is enough interest to organize a kit for this.
--
Brian |
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| BrianGT |
picture from datasheet:
--
Brian |
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| Da5id4Vz |
| quote: | | Anyone interested in a stepped attenuator kit... |
| quote: | | the price for a kit could be under $90 (hopefully around $80 |
Show me the WIKI!
(Sorry, missed the message about sending Email)
(Sorry again, missed the message about WIKI to be posted shortly) |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Da5id4Vz
Show me the WIKI!
(Sorry, missed the message about sending Email)
(Sorry again, missed the message about WIKI to be posted shortly) |
Sorry for the confusion. I just made the Wiki, and I will make a dedicated thread for this and post details once I receive my unit and determine how it works. I also ordered some units from Grayhill and Electroswitch, so I will see what works out best.
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Brian |
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| Da5id4Vz |
No confusion, justy fun.
Golly thats fast. |
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| tg3 |
| And post a schematic with your review too, as I always confuse the different passive attenuator topologies. |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by tg3
And post a schematic with your review too, as I always confuse the different passive attenuator topologies. |
Here is the schematic from the datasheet, just 2 resistors in the signal path at a time. This should be the cleanest solution.
I like the attenuator that I have in my gainclone now, but it pops when I change settings, and this one should not have any problems like this, and be silky smooth when changing the volume.
The best part about this attenuator, is that you can easily put it together, as the pcbs on it are made especially for the task, unlike regular 4-pole switches.
--
Brian |
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| Sandy H. |
Brian,
You (and wifey to be) have been kicking 'B' on the GC kit. I also think a group order on the attenuator is a good idea, but these things must be made of gold! Even with a group buy, I'm guessing you'll get the cost to $50-60 + the resistors yielding an $80+ kit cost, as you mentioned. Is there any way to combine 2x 6-way switches to yield a similar result, with the obvious compromise in user friendliness? I like the idea of an attenuator vs. a pot, but I really am too cheap to pay more for an attenuator than the amp.
What are the other options for those of us who just bug out at paying the bucks for a mechanical switch?
No offense is intended and in the end, I'll probably be interested in an attenuator, just since it is being offered. . . :(
Sandy. |
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| Variac |
$90 is hellacheap for a ladder config stepped attenuator.
I recently bought 2 Shallco 27 position 6 deck switches,
Don't know how they will work, but they don't have those cool PC boards. So at least I need a set of resistors.
So, what brand resistors are you considering? HUGE savings here with a bulk order. The new Holcos don't have as good a rep as the old. The Vishay/Roderstein and Dale metal film are OK from what I've heard. Apox remote attenuators use :
Meggit Hollsworthy H8 0.1% High Performance Metal Film Resistors . I don't know much about them maybe worth contacting them. |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Variac
$90 is hellacheap for a ladder config stepped attenuator.
I recently bought 2 Shallco 27 position 6 deck switches,
Don't know how they will work, but they don't have those cool PC boards. So at least I need a set of resistors.
So, what brand resistors are you considering? HUGE savings here with a bulk order. The new Holcos don't have as good a rep as the old. The Vishay/Roderstein and Dale metal film are OK from what I've heard. Apox remote attenuators use :
Meggit Hollsworthy H8 0.1% High Performance Metal Film Resistors . I don't know much about them maybe worth contacting them. |
I was thinking of using the Vishay Dale RN60 resistors, as they are the ones in my current attenuator, and can be easily obtained. For the price, I think that these are the best choice, and you can always swap out the resistors in your favorite listening positions to more expensive ones.
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Brian |
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| Variac |
Yeah, it seems like there is a niche for moderately priced resistors:
Less than $3 more than .20 . Also, the Dales on your switch could be fake, so the new ones might be even better... |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Variac
Yeah, it seems like there is a niche for moderately priced resistors:
Less than $3 more than .20 . Also, the Dales on your switch could be fake, so the new ones might be even better... |
I would really doubt that they are fake, as they are pretty cheap in large quantities > 1000. They look identical to the real ones I have in my parts bin. The switch itself is just crappy.
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Brian |
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| pkpickard |
Brian -
What's your timeframe on this group buy? I'm interested, but my wallet need to recover a bit from the GC and chassis purchases. |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkpickard
Brian -
What's your timeframe on this group buy? I'm interested, but my wallet need to recover a bit from the GC and chassis purchases. |
Probably the middle of April.
BTW: Happy St. Paddy's day!
--
Brian |
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| Sandy H. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Variac
$90 is hellacheap for a ladder config stepped attenuator. |
I agree and was not intending to say that it isn’t a great value. It is just that I can't see the cost from the manufacturer. That being said, I do understand good quality vs. cheap knockoff does have a cost associated with it.
I reaffirm that I will likely purchase at least one attenuator, but it seems odd that I can buy all kinds of crazy IC's for a buck or two, but a simple mechanical switch is so expensive. I guess that's reality, but man, as an ME, it seems so odd.
Thanks for the groundwork on another good group buy, Brian. Thanks also for the reality check, Variac. Its just something that is far out of my area of expertise.
Sandy. |
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| jlh28 |
| Brian. I would be willing to pay a dollar extra for assembly. What do you think? |
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| chipco3434 |
Attenuator pricing.. it's not surprising. Who buys them? A few nuts (us), the military, some high end audio builders. I suspect the vast majority of stepped volume controls in the consumer market are pots with detents. Shorting stepped attenuators are the kobi beef tenderloin of the potentiometer meat market.
And by the way, I wouldn't want to machine the parts or assemble one of them. There's a reason they're expensive... they can't be made on a dirt floor. :hypno2: |
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| gjo |
FYI,Transcendent Sound has been ofering these kits for a while.
http://transcendentsound.com/step%20attenuator.htm
They are priced at about $80 after a $10 discount that can be got if you register for their newsletter, and Elma rotary switch is used in this attenuator as well.
I bought their Grounded Grid preamp recently, and am enjoying listening to it.
George |
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| malisz |
| How about ballanced version of the attenuator? I would like 2 pcs for Alephs. I believe quite a few people would be intrested too and bigger overall volume means lower prices for all. |
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| tja |
gjo wrote
FYI,Transcendent Sound has been ofering these kits for a while.
http://transcendentsound.com/step%20attenuator.htm
They are priced at about $80 after a $10 discount that can be got if you register for their newsletter, and Elma rotary switch is used in this attenuator as well.
That's a series configuration, the one Brian's offering is a ladder type.
Take |
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| gjo |
| quote: | | That's a series configuration, the one Brian's offering is a ladder type. |
I stand corrected..
George |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by tja
gjo wrote
FYI,Transcendent Sound has been ofering these kits for a while.
http://transcendentsound.com/step%20attenuator.htm
They are priced at about $80 after a $10 discount that can be got if you register for their newsletter, and Elma rotary switch is used in this attenuator as well.
That's a series configuration, the one Brian's offering is a ladder type.
Take |
Exactly. If the series configuration was wanted, it would quite a bit less than $90 for the PCB version that they are selling for $119 - $10.
The switch itself without the pcb on it could be picked up for less than $40 (without resistors or anything else). But just having a 2 deck switch doesn't do you much good.
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Brian |
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| roibm |
Great attenuator, I read it everywhere.
But, here's my question: do I need an attenuator to my gainclone?
Do I really need it?
My gaiclone will be driven by a preamp, so I can adjust the volume using it. Is there a problem?
Sorry if the question has been already answered. |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by roibm
Great attenuator, I read it everywhere.
But, here's my question: do I need an attenuator to my gainclone?
Do I really need it?
My gaiclone will be driven by a preamp, so I can adjust the volume using it. Is there a problem?
Sorry if the question has been already answered. |
No, if you are using a preamp, you do not need an attenuator, simply use it like a normal amplifier.
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Brian |
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| roibm |
| quote: | Originally posted by BrianGT
No, if you are using a preamp, you do not need an attenuator, simply use it like a normal amplifier.
|
Brian, you fast man. Do you ever sleep? :D
So I don't need one... do I need to add a resistor in some place(I read about a reistor that should be added between the input socket and ground)?
If yes, what value? Should I go for the best quality?
Thanks :) |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by roibm
Brian, you fast man. Do you ever sleep? :D
So I don't need one... do I need to add a resistor in some place(I read about a reistor that should be added between the input socket and ground)?
If yes, what value? Should I go for the best quality?
Thanks :) |
This resistor that you mention is there by default, R2, which is a 20k or 22k resistor to ground. This is said to work best.
On the picture below, it is the middle resistor. The resistor on the left is the series input resistor, 220ohm, and the one on the right is a 620/680 resistor from the -IN to ground, setting the gain.
As for sleeping, I woke up a little before 6am to work on kits for a few hours before I go to work. Meredith will wake up later and mail them out.
--
Brian |
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| leadbelly |
Yup, I am very interested in at least one St. Paddy's Day Attenuator!
(I was literally writing down a parts list yesterday to make my own and would have ordered last night if I wasn't on the town enjoying some :drink: So it will always be the St. Paddy's Day Attenuator to me!) |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by leadbelly
Yup, I am very interested in at least one St. Paddy's Day Attenuator!
(I was literally writing down a parts list yesterday to make my own and would have ordered last night if I wasn't on the town enjoying some :drink: So it will always be the St. Paddy's Day Attenuator to me!) |
Sounds good! Put your name on the Wiki:
http://www.diyaudio.com/wiki/index....tor+Group+Order
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Brian |
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| malisz |
Brian,
Is it possible to make this attenuatror in ballanced version too? Quite a few folks could be interested, I believe.
malisz |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by malisz
Brian,
Is it possible to make this attenuatror in ballanced version too? Quite a few folks could be interested, I believe.
malisz |
Elma does not sell a balanced version of this attenuator, unless you get one custom made. So.. this would mean the only solution for now would be to use two of these for balanced.
Doing balanced for a ladder attenuator would require an 8-pole switch, and getting one made would cost a lot!
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Brian |
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| Variac |
I'm in the same fix, because I might want an attenuator for my balanced Bride of son of zen preamp in addition to my gainclone. I think with the switch Brian is getting one could do a series balanced attenuator or a shunt balanced attenuator.
OR :
You can make a ladder type but use it between the outputs of the preamp. This seeems scary but I believe that Nelson Pass sugggested it and others have confirmed that it does no damage. I believe that someone else said it didn't sound as good, but I don't think I believe that.
The only problem with this is it seems to require some very low value resistors for adaquate attenuation, in the range of 1/2 ohm and up.
A bsoz also optimally uses a 5k pot so the resistor values would be different in any case....
I hope someone can add some input to my comments which are based on lots off hearsay.
Mark |
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| fcel |
| I know we all have heard about the complains regarding those cheap attenuators from the other thread (Brian said "maching gun" sound) but just in case some people are still interested, they do sell a balanced version (8 layers) fully assembled for about US$90. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by fcel
they do sell a balanced version (8 layers) fully assembled for about US$90. |
That price can't be beat for an attenuator, and those units are still a good value. It's just the switching noise makes them less appealing. But if one doesn't change the volume that often, they are OK. |
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| moe29 |
I plan on using two of these at the outputs of my BZLS.
I just always get confused on how to determine what value
resistors to get. I've seen that JAVA calculator, but for 5K pots
it seems to show values of resistors that are not obtainable...
unless i'm reading it wrong (likely)
m. |
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| Ciscokid |
Hi,
Any chance of getting these for other applications than a GC? I need a pair of mono 100Ks.
Regards,
ck |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ciscokid
Hi,
Any chance of getting these for other applications than a GC? I need a pair of mono 100Ks.
Regards,
ck |
Sure, you could always get one from me without resistors and pick out the resistors that you want. I will determine the pricing later for it. If you want this, just put a comment that you don't need resistors in the Wiki.
--
Brian |
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| Ciscokid |
Cool :cool:
Thanks,
ck |
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| jhead |
| Holco's went to ferrous end caps that is the intermediate termination is magnectic some time ago :( as well as the price being sort of high .45c each thru MPercy and a $1.00 each tru Mouser.Dale's are probable the best value in resistors at the moment .Although Micheal is converting over to a differnt manufacture called Precision Resistive Products out of Mediapolis,IA check out thier web site http:www.prpinc.com |
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| jhead |
| :eek: Failed to mention look at the PR9372-series which were designed for audio circuits these look like serious contenders for the best resistors in audio applications |
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| kanaddict |
Brian,
what steps values do you have in mind ?
Linear or exp. step attenuator ?
Thanks ! |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by kanaddict
Brian,
what steps values do you have in mind ?
Linear or exp. step attenuator ?
Thanks ! |
The current idea for the resistor set to go with the kit is to find the best solution to go along with the Gainclone Group order, which probably would be a 20k log ladder.
You are welcome to order the switch without resistors and put together any type of ladder, any value, log or linear.
Due to the amount of work putting together resistor sets, I will most likely only be using one type for this order.
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Brian |
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| kanaddict |
Hi,
Thanks for your answer !
| quote: | Originally posted by BrianGT
The current idea for the resistor set to go with the kit is to find the best solution to go along with the Gainclone Group order, which probably would be a 20k log ladder.
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Brian |
20 k :bigeyes:
I was on the impression that a 50k was the way to go. A few days ago (before you started this group) Peter Daniel suggested a 50k pot from Michael Percy (not a step attenuator). I wonder how different would sound your GC kit with different step attenuator 20k vs 50k ?? I ask the question because I was offered a 50k step attenuator at a good price.
Thanks ! |
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| kanaddict |
Sorry Peter,
I don't know why, but in my mind I was sure that you recommanded 50 k :bawling:
So, if I understand well what you said, 50k should not affect the sound of the amp ? |
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| Peter Daniel |
| I wouldn't think so. In case of using 50k pot you have to add 22k shunt resistor to lower the input impedance and prevent excessive DC offset. |
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| yoke |
From what I see on the picture it shoudn't b problem of sticking another 4 pole for useng it as balanced version ...I think it should just use longer centar bar ( sorry bad english )...I hope you understand what I mean...
Can some one chack this with elma...how much would cost 8 pole...
Thanks |
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| stadams |
Brian,
I was curious about the model of the rotary switch that you have selected. After reading through the Percy Audio catalog concerning the ELMA switches I noticed that a couple of the switches (04-2130, 04-1130) exhibit a similar transient noise effect as the Taiwanese attenuators from a previous thread. I was hoping that you had avoided this model, and had chosen a higher quality switch for the possible group purchase.
Thanks, |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by stadams
Brian,
I was curious about the model of the rotary switch that you have selected. After reading through the Percy Audio catalog concerning the ELMA switches I noticed that a couple of the switches (04-2130, 04-1130) exhibit a similar transient noise effect as the Taiwanese attenuators from a previous thread. I was hoping that you had avoided this model, and had chosen a higher quality switch for the possible group purchase.
Thanks, |
Todd,
The model that I am looking at is the Elma 04A2R00, which is their high end unit, used in some high-end commercial audio projects. I have ordered a pair of them, one for myself, and one for Peter Daniel to try out. I will make sure that this is a worthwhile switch before buying a bunch of them. The hardware for the contacts is the same hardware used in the DACT volume controls, which cost $160 for a 2 channel unit.
Be assured that these will be high quality units, or else I won't be ordering them for the group order, after I try my initial unit.
--
Brian |
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| doobooloo |
Hello BrianGT,
I've been lurking around the diyAudio forums for a while (I'm active in Head-Fi) and I came across this thread and decided to get a set through you. ;) I have added my name through the wiki.
Please let us know when you receive your units - I would really appreciate your comments! |
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| yoke |
Hi Brian...
So you will be offer only 4 pole switchies...?
Whell in that case , I will be interested for two of them...for my balenced preamp... |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by doobooloo
Hello BrianGT,
I've been lurking around the diyAudio forums for a while (I'm active in Head-Fi) and I came across this thread and decided to get a set through you. ;) I have added my name through the wiki.
Please let us know when you receive your units - I would really appreciate your comments! |
I should get my the 2 units that I ordered soon, as they shipped out Friday. I will post pictures and info when they come in.
| quote: | Originally posted by yoke
Hi Brian...
So you will be offer only 4 pole switchies...?
Whell in that case , I will be interested for two of them...for my balenced preamp... |
The Elma 04A2R00 switch is designed to be a stereo ladder volume control, configured with a 4-pole switch. I would recommend sticking to the intended application with it. Also, a standard 4-pole switch will be a bit cheaper. I can look into pricing for a standard 4-pole switch if you want. Just put an entry on the Wiki, explaining what you want, and I will see what I can do.
--
Brian |
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| Peter Daniel |
Another, cheaper solution, is going with fixed series/switched shunt arrangement. You would need 2 decks Elma ($56 from Percy), 2 quality series resistors (let's say 5K or 10k Vishays S102) and about 50 Dale resistors which will be switched for different volume settings. I'm presently using this setup and it work pretty well. Although resistance is not constant, in most frequently used range (which is a 1/4 of max setting) I'm using max resistance on a pot, which is good.
I think this is a good alternative to more elaborate volume switchers (ladder type) and it may, in some cases, work actually better than a ladder type attenuator ;) |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Another, cheaper solution, is going with fixed series/switched shunt arrangement. You would need 2 decks Elma ($56 from Percy), 2 quality series resistors (let's say 5K or 10k Vishays S102) and about 50 Dale resistors which will be switched for different volume settings. I'm presently using this setup and it work pretty well. Although resistance is not constant, in most frequently used range (which is a 1/4 of max setting) I'm using max resistance on a pot, which is good.
I think this is a good alternative to more elaborate volume switchers (ladder type) and it may, in some cases, work actually better than a ladder type attenuator ;) |
Elma also makes a series attenuator, the 04A2A00S, which might work as a cheaper alternative. What do you think about this?
I am checking on pricing now, but it should be quite a bit cheaper.
Datasheet:
http://www.elma.com/files/products/...eries_a_002.pdf
--
Brian |
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| Peter Daniel |
| I'm not that sure about series attenuators (with stock resistors). I have a feeling than in some cases those are worse than a good pot. But if properly chosen, SMD resistors are used, they might be pretty good. IIRC, Jonathan Carr is using that type of setup (with different swittch though) in Connoseur preamp. |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
I'm not that sure about series attenuators (with stock resistors). I have a feeling than in some cases those are worse than a good pot. But if properly chosen, SMD resistors are used, they might be pretty good. IIRC, Jonathan Carr is using that type of setup (with different swittch though) in Connoseur preamp. |
The switches do not come with the resistors, so it depends on what you want to pair up with it.
If you are looking at SMD resistors, the 2 channel DACT switch is in a series configuration with SMD resistors and costs $180. It uses the same Elma hardware as the one that I am considering.
Here is a picture of the series resistive attenuator without the resistors.
--
Brian |
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| Peter Daniel |
The question is, what kind of SMD parts to use?
I'm also using the pictured switch in my TVX preamps. It works well. |
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| BrianGT |
Here is a picture of the DACT CT2, which has the same hardware as the above attenuator, but with a different PCB with SMD resistors. It goes for $180.
I will let you know how pricing looks on the Elma series attenuator. The Elma series attenuator uses through-hole parts. They don't make their own SMD switch, as DACT makes the pcb for their own switches.
--
Brian |
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| Peter Daniel |
| Looking at BV22568 switch (which has a single row of holes) it seems that properly chosen SMD resistors (sizewise) should fit between the pads. |
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| Ciscokid |
Any thoughts on Gold Point ?
Glod Point
ck |
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| doobooloo |
| The Goldpoint ones are much more expensive, and even at similar price levels you can only get the series/shunt versions. |
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| Ciscokid |
Yea they are :eek: Perhaps prices would improve with a GB?
ck |
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| Peter Daniel |
| I don't see anything special about Gold Point. Those are Elmas switches with custom boards at double the price. You'll be much better off buying from Elma. |
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| BrianGT |
Here is a picture of the Elma switch that I received today, the stereo ladder attenuator. It is a high quality unit with gold switching contacts, and high quality pcbs for easily assembly.
I will get one of the series units in the mail next week, which costs about $25 less.
--
Brian |
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| BrianGT |
picture showing the shorting contacts. It is a well built unit.
--
Brian |
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| leadbelly |
They look sweet :redhot:
My guess is that the there would be more interest in the GB for the 4 deck because the non-GC crowd will want some, whereas the lower cost 2 deck would appeal to the GC guys more. Maybe the Aleph guys will want the 4 deck for a series, balanced attenuator? But hey, that's up to you in the end.
Anyways, most of all, enjoy the wedding! Cheers! |
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| doobooloo |
BrianGT -
Thanks for the pictures! They indeed look very nice. :)
I am wondering though, are the PCB boards easily disassembleable/assemblable? Does the unit come assembled, or do we need to put it together?
I am wondering because if the PCBs are fixed, I think it's going to be rather difficult getting the resistors in there... |
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| Ciscokid |
BrianGT,
Very nice!! Any more info on getting mono decks?
Regards,
ck |
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| massimo |
| quote: | Originally posted by BrianGT
Elma does not sell a balanced version of this attenuator, unless you get one custom made. So.. this would mean the only solution for now would be to use two of these for balanced.
Doing balanced for a ladder attenuator would require an 8-pole switch, and getting one made would cost a lot!
--
Brian |
Elma switches are quite easy to modify. You can buy two 4 decks units and use just one mechanism stacking 8 decks. Obviously you need to replace the standard shaft with a longer one. The shaft is simply "snaped in" and it's easy to extract. The new longer shaft might be a brass bar 6 (W) x 2 (H) mm.
I've done this mod several times as I bought many Elma surplus switches (brand new, sealed in the original 10 pcs boxes) featuring3 decks and they become 2 decks or 4 decks. |
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| BrianGT |
What is the overall feeling about which switch to get? I am looking at 2 switches, the Elma ladder attenuator, and the Elma series attenuator. The series model will be about $25 less for the attenuator and less for the kit, since there are less resistors required.
It seems like the series model should be fine, since it will simply act like an accurate potentiometer. What are the advantages of the ladder solution?
--
Brian |
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| doobooloo |
Not that it will matter a whole lot, but the ladder type will most likely have better channel matching, even if the resistors are matched the sum of the differences can turn out to be a bit greater than what would result in a ladder attenuator.
But then, will anyone be able to hear the difference? |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by BrianGT
What are the advantages of the ladder solution?
|
Less resistors and solder joints in series. How important it is, I don't know.
But I would be inclined towards series attenuator with good SMD resistors. But even than, it's hard to predict if it will sound better than a quality pot. I'm not that much concerned with tracking accuracy. |
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| Variac |
| apparently the ladder also always presents the same load to the source. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Variac
apparently the ladder also always presents the same load to the source. |
This is also true for the series attenuator.
It is different for fixed series/variable shunt type, but I wouldn't consider this as such a big issue. 90% of attenuators usage is over a certain, limited setting, that doesn't change that often. Only on some occasions you probably choose to listen at much lower level (or really loud), so if the parameters of an attenuator are optimised for that, most frequently used setting, series/shunt should be as good as ladder. |
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| stadams |
I prefer the ladder arrangement. Unless you are buying multiple switches--3 or 4 or more--and considering the price that I would have to pay for the series attenuator anyway, I would be willing to pay more for and be more inclined to have the ladder attenuator.
Thanks, |
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| roddyama |
| quote: | Originally posted by stadams
I prefer the ladder arrangement. Unless you are buying multiple switches--3 or 4 or more--and considering the price that I would have to pay for the series attenuator anyway, I would be willing to pay more for and be more inclined to have the ladder attenuator.
Thanks, |
Ditto. |
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| leadbelly |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
It is different for fixed series/variable shunt type, but I wouldn't consider this as such a big issue. 90% of attenuators usage is over a certain, limited setting, that doesn't change that often. Only on some occasions you probably choose to listen at much lower level (or really loud), so if the parameters of an attenuator are optimised for that, most frequently used setting, series/shunt should be as good as ladder. |
For me, and maybe some others as well, this will be a "splurge" purchase, and so I will likely build it in to a separate case so it can move from amp to amp as I upgrade. I may very well at some point put it in my one best amp one day to reduce interconnects, but not right away. So optimizing for the 90% usage setting will not apply in a situation like that. |
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| chosen1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by stadams
I prefer the ladder arrangement. Unless you are buying multiple switches--3 or 4 or more--and considering the price that I would have to pay for the series attenuator anyway, I would be willing to pay more for and be more inclined to have the ladder attenuator.
Thanks, |
Ditto as well |
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| bigparsnip |
| Yep, ladder, for me too (I always did like things on high shelves) |
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| rpafenberg |
| I vote for the ladder attenuator as well |
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| fcel |
| Below is a picture of a balanced-8-layers-10K-24 Steps-attenuator that I bought recently ... you know where from. Temporary installed at the back before I get a new chassis. It sounds fine to me and it's well worth the $90. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| No switching noise? |
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| fcel |
| I don't hear any switching noise for now but I'll play with it for a couple days & will report back. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| Maybe 8 decks switches are better?;) |
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| BrianGT |
I assembled one channel of the ladder attenuator today. It is quite a difficult task, as there are 46 resistors per channel to put in place and solder. It took me about 2 hours to get the single channel put together, soldering one row at a time. This time includes the time that I spent sorting out the resistors.
I am worried that this is too tedious of a task for most people to do. What does everyone else think?
Besides the ladder attenuator, here are the other options (all 2-channel stereo units):
1. Series attenuator: half the resistors, much easier to assemble, since 1 channel = 1 deck. The price is a good deal less, probably $60 with resistors. (requires assembly)
2. DACT series attenuator, preassembled with SMD resistors. This unit has gotten great reviews, and will probably cost around $105-$110. This is fully assembled and working.
3. Goldpoint Mini-L ladder: This unit is easier to assemble, since the 2 decks are assembled seperately. I haven't determined the pricing yet for these units, but they will probably cost more than the DACT units for a stereo ladder attenuator, including resistors (Dale RN60D)
I am thinking that for the convenience and great price break for 50 units, the DACT unit would be the best choice.
Here is a picture of the my unit, half assembled:
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Brian |
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| leadbelly |
| quote: | Originally posted by BrianGT
What does everyone else think?
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My vote is still for the Elma ladder. |
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| Da5id4Vz |
| quote: | | I am worried that this is too tedious of a task for most people to do. |
Sounds like therapy to me. I guess the allure for me is to have some personal connection, even if its just stuff -n- solder.
A ladder based kit would by my preference...
DACT, any relation to STENDEC? |
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| rpafenberg |
| I too still want the ladder attenuator. It should be worth the work!! |
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| Praudio |
| Have a look on BV22569, built some few years ago,still perfect(no noise) and seem to be easier to built. |
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| chosen1 |
| I say Elma ladder. If this was easy, anyone could do it. |
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| tmj |
How about shunt-type? It also has only 2 resistors in signal path. It's impedance is varying a little, but for example with 10kOhm series resistor it's input impedance with 20dB attenuation is still only 11.1kOhm. And with more than 30dB attenuation it is practically equal to ladder type.
With shunt type you need only half the parts compared to ladder, and only one switch connection per channel. Is the ladder really worth double the parts and extra switch connection in signal path? |
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| Kjetil |
| My money is on the ELMA ladder.. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by tmj
Is the ladder really worth double the parts and extra switch connection in signal path? |
Probably not;)
What I already proposed to Brian is a modified ladder, which sort of rides on simplicity of fixed series/variable shunt, yet provides more flexibility than a simple series/shunt single deck attenuator (less variable resistance and no gain loss at max setting).
A four deck switch has to be used, but with less resistors, as if you noticed the series resistors values are repeated through various settings, so why using them every time?
Instead of 23 series resistors, you
only need 5 (a better type), as all other are quite close in values. Shunt resistors values have to be recalculated for correct attenuation (the number of
shunt resistors stays the same), but I don't see a reason why this wouldn't
work and why nobody's using that setup. Why using 23
resistors, if 5 is more than enough? Of course 2k difference in total
resistance is not a problem, unless some accurate filters are used at the
input.. |
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| chosen1 |
| Anything new on this. I am in the middle of a project right now, and I would like to use this initially instead of retro-fitting it. |
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| BrianGT |
Anyone want to take on this group order? I have ordered the parts for the next batch of pcb/kit orders for the gainclone boards, and don't have the finances/resources to do both the attenuators and gainclone kits. If someone wants to take over this group order, it would be quite helpful for me. Otherwise, I can do it farther down the road, after I get the other stuff taken care of.
I can help out with the order page/paypal shopping cart setup for this order if someone wants to do this.
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Brian |
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| chosen1 |
| I know I'm new here, but I'd be glad to take this on. I have excellent feedback at head-fi.org as chosen1, and imaculate feedback on ebay as chosen(1). |
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| Praudio |
Nothing since 04/16, may be Rodd Yamashita can do something
for us(group buy) after all he is an expert! |
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| bryman79 |
Hello All,
Is the group buy going to happen?
If not, I've found one for $95 here in CA. Anyone able to get ahold of one cheaper?
Thanks,
Bryan |
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| 6h5c |
Hi,
I sure hope so, I'm still interested, but I think BrianGT is still busy with
other group orders, and since he's the once that started this thread...
What's the resistance value of the $95 one? The Elma switch alone
will cost me about €97 here in Holland, so $95 is not bad (I assume it's
including the resistors).
Greetings,
Ray. |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by 6h5c
Hi,
I sure hope so, I'm still interested, but I think BrianGT is still busy with
other group orders, and since he's the once that started this thread...
What's the resistance value of the $95 one? The Elma switch alone
will cost me about €97 here in Holland, so $95 is not bad (I assume it's
including the resistors).
Greetings,
Ray. |
Yeah, I don't have time to do an order of them. They come out to around $70 each without resistors if a big enough order is created, direct from Elma.
I would rather go with the series attenuator units, as they are much, much easier to assemble, and cost quite a lot less, around $40 each.
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Brian |
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