| Rixsta |
I cant understand why studio engineers ectra have to compres the hell out of music, when one of the main points to music are the dynamics but they get lost when you over compress music.
I just recently bought the new foo fighters album "one by one"
and was dissapointed with the sound, if anyone knows the song "all my life" you'll probably notice that the verses which have no drumming in, are louder than the actual chorus which is meant to be the heavy part of the song.
i dont understand this
a lot of cd's recorded in the last few years could sound so much better and impacting if only they had some dynamics to it.
If i wanted it louder i would turn it up lol.
no affence to the foo fighters in any way they could be the victims of a bad recording engineer.
please tell us if you know of a realy good rock album that's been recorded well with not too much compression. |
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| Wombat |
On Hydrogenaudio someone posted a link to some views about this stupid "LOUDNESSRACE" There is a homepage dedicated to it
http://www.loudnessrace.net/ |
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| fivaxis |
One thing I always hated was when a song starts out with a killer guitar solo and then the other instruments come in and the original guitar is muted.
CD sales are driven by people with stock stereos, and on those stereos louder sounds better to them.
The MTV Unplugged CDs don't seem to have very much compression and are excellent recordings. |
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| Hybrid fourdoor |
I guess so many poeple enjoy that "radio" sound :rolleyes:
Music on Satellite and stuff have always been like that too. The Fast & The Furious is one of the worst DVD's I have with it. You'd think a car movie would have great sound quality...ala Days Of Thunder (especially on LD! :devilr: )
Actually alot DVD's...well earlier ones seem to be really compressed, seemed no matter how loud it was it just wan't as engaging as the LD version. |
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| Frank Berry |
"I guess so many poeple enjoy that "radio" sound"
Or the Producers of these horrid quality recordings think that everyone is listening on a low powered boom box or a cheap car radio. |
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| Rixsta |
yeah i know exactly what you mean youv'e just reminded me of when your watching a film and then the adverts come on blaring out like mad.
Thanks for the link to that site Wombat by the way
actualy maybee they think the spikes in the sound of a uncompressed cd would blow up a **** stereo so that's why they use compression.
you never know lol |
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| tcpip |
Personally, I think the sequence of forces at work are as follows:- How do you get the prospective buyer to listen to a new song he's never heard? In the US, it appears the answer is by catching him when he's listening to the car radio, while driving. Americans seem to spend a lot of time in cars. And America is a big market.
- Second: if you want to get the listener's attention while he's driving, you can't indulge in fanciful ideas like wide dynamics. Just give him the drumbeat or guitar or whatever, and hit him with loud sound. That's why probably no one listens to symphony music while driving.... the dynamic range would be too distracting while driving. I've seen one person playing his Blaupunkt car stereo with Beethoven's Fifth, and the stereo would completely mute the audio and fast-forward the tape (it was a cassette) during the softer passages, because it deduced that the signal strength was too low for there to be any musical content in it. That's the world of car audio.
Moral of the story: if more people listened to music sitting down in their homes, and not as background music, the commercial guys at the studios would have thought up some other tricks to sell their albums, but compression may not have been one of them.
Incidentally, let's not blame inexpensive combo home systems. Even pretty inexpensive ones usually provide a listening experience with a much wider dynamic range than music listening in a car. It's a function of the environment, not the audio system. Boomboxes may not sound particularly detailed and delicate, but they'll let you hear quite a wide dynamic range (maybe 60dB or more) in a quiet home quite clearly. I suspect that inside all but the most luxuriously padded cars, this range will be less than 30dB. |
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| Frank Berry |
"It's a function of the environment, not the audio system."
I must disagree. It's a function of the Producer of the CD.
The Producer doesn't understand that the cheap audio systems of today are vastly superior to those of a few years ago.
The Producer is still "Keepin' up with the 80's". |
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| dmitriy167 |
Well, I can say that in a car audio situation, compression does make sense. Who's going to hear the quiet passages over tire hum? And no one would want dynamic peaks to distract them from driving. But at home, I really hate the compression. It takes all the life and emotion away from the music, especially electronic, where the peaks can be VERY loud if recorded properly. When I record anything, I never compress the sound for that same reason. Therefore, Daft Punk is an embarassment to the industry.
-peace |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by dmitriy167
Well, I can say that in a car audio situation, compression does make sense. Who's going to hear the quiet passages over tire hum? |
Fully agree. It is important to realise that what sounds "best" in a moving car is probably different in many ways from what sounds "best" in a quiet home. Ditto, a large auditorium, and ditto, the monitoring station of a recording studio. |
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| phase_accurate |
For today's disposable mainstream pop heavy compression might be a good thing since it is listened to mainly on cheap gear and car audio, where hevy compression helps to overcome SPL limitations.
It is the producers and the performers who dictate how a recording should sound and not the engineer (unfortunately).
I was attending an AES meeting last week where an engineer from a famous recording studio said, that one has to deliver the quality that the customer is asking for (neither better nor worse) in order to make ends meet.
And yes, in his opinion the majority of the best recordings were made before the introduction of the CD. But he also mentioned the gut feeling that the request for quality might increase in the near future, so he will be allowed (!) to deliver the sound quality that his high-resolution gear is capable of to the enduser one fine day.
Regards
Charles |
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| arniel |
In an ideal world, the simple answer to all of this would be to put the compression hardware in the playback unit. That way, a car stereo could be set up to give max compression (like the way some stereos use a signal from the speedo to raise the volume when the car is being driven fast), and home receivers can switch it off.
I believe DAB radio has this ability, but knowing what radio stations are like in the UK, they probably compress at source anyway :whazzat:
I'm sure someone will confirm/deny, but I also recall that AC3 has dynamic range markers of some sort in the datastream, so that compression can be performed without horrible "pumping" effects.
Arnie |
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| StratoFan |
Well, we paid hours on local sound studio to record drum tracks, and we got back this garbage from the ”enginer”:
no comment... |
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| Rixsta |
thnks for informing me that AC3 has dynamic range markers scince i will be recording my album using ac3
exelent idea arniel but i wish they did build compressers into car radios ectra..
Hopefully the future looks bright fore music recording hopefully
StratoFan that sucks man
You know that old saying if you want something done properly try to do it yourself only you know how it should sound if it's your songs..
of course you might have to learn sum stuff but it would pay off in the end..
by the way im a stratofan but i only have a epiphone gbson copy. |
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| StratoFan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Rixsta
StratoFan that sucks man
You know that old saying if you want something done properly try to do it yourself only you know how it should sound if it's your songs..
of course you might have to learn sum stuff but it would pay off in the end..
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Yes, you all right, but to record drum tracks is not easy like to record guitars or keyboards. Lot of good quality microphones, good acoustic environment required, and enginer who not absolute stupid.
| quote: |
by the way im a stratofan but i only have a epiphone gbson copy.
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By the way, I have Yamaha strato copy, but this is not the best for me. I will change my Yamaha strat to some real rock guitar like LTD or something else. My nick mean I like fin band called Stratovarius :) not Stratocaster :devilr: :smash: |
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| BobEllis |
| quote: | Originally posted by Rixsta
i wish they did build compressers into car radios ectra..
Hopefully the future looks bright fore music recording . |
At least on this side of the pond Ford has had compression available on its standard heads for at least 7 years for CD playback. Of course it is set way too aggressively and I cannot stand to use it.
:xeye: |
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| Rixsta |
Iv'e got to admit i didn't think of drums. doh
mainly because the songs i record i use loops and samples for drums.
Stratocaster. lol
i use a delta 1010 soundcard to record my stuff and try not to use too much compression.
i miss having a whammy/tremlo on my guitar cant do that deep purple stuff without it.
Stratovarius sound like prog rock just a wild guess though
i will check out Stratovarius you can hear one of my songs if you wish just click on the www. below
ps: do you have a link to one of your song hope you dont think im being nosey. lol |
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| Rixsta |
would be good to be able to adjust the compressors Bob
but of course theres much more to compression than just the compression threshold level whatever.
auto threshold would do it i expect |
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| faustian bargin |
thought this page on digido.com by engineer Bob Katz might be relevant - it's an 'honor roll' of pop cd's with good sound. i think someone else posted this link here recently, or maybe on another audio forum...
clicky clicky
/andrew |
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| StratoFan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Rixsta
Stratovarius sound like prog rock just a wild guess though
i will check out Stratovarius you can hear one of my songs if you wish just click on the www. below
ps: do you have a link to one of your song hope you dont think im being nosey. lol |
Hi Rixsta :)
Stratovarius going to play prog rock in the last album only. Originally Stratovarius made very good powermetal.
Well thanks for the link of your songs, cool, try this: www :devilr: :devilr: :devilr: :devilr: :devilr: :devilr: :devilr: |
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| cogsncogs |
Hello everyone!
Has anyone shopped/looked at stereo systems lately? Most of you're friendly and knowledgeable local Stereo/Hi-Fi shops have all but disapeared. What do ya have left? :bawling:
Wal-Mart!
If it sounds better on a Wal-Mart, Best Buy oversized boom box/'stereo system' (PLASTIC) :xeye: that's what the producers and engineers are targeting for, at least here in the good ole USA! And yes automobile systems.
My rant,
Wayne
:D :smash: |
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| cogsncogs |
HeHe
It's like what Ian Gillan of Deep Purple said on the Made In Japan album right before track 4 "The Mule". "Can I have everything louder than everything else?"
Wayne |
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| Rixsta |
Hiya cogsncogs i love made in japan which reminds me i gotta get a good cd copie of it sometime..
Actualy i think i remember listning to that album when i was like 11 years old.
oh yeah what you were saying about boom boxe's was good too
iv'e always wanted quality music equiptment
you kinda forget the rubbish stuff even exists.
So all's left that could be done with this compression problem is for studio engineers bands ectra to release a Special version of a cd/album for people like us on this site ?
Wouldnt that be nice
of course with the internet getting faster i expect one day we could purchase a special version very easily and burn it to cd ourselves maybee also choosing our own amount of compression level to add to it.
Ok im throwing random ideas at you here but yeah
um
if im wrong please argue your point .
Be nice |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by Rixsta
of course with the internet getting faster i expect one day we could purchase a special version very easily and burn it to cd ourselves maybee also choosing our own amount of compression level to add to it.
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Very interesting. This reminds me of a line of thought a few of my friends were following in a recent chat. I'll try to summarise what we were thinking.
For the first time, we now have digital data media which can actually hold all the raw data of unmixed master tapes from the recording studio. So, if there was a one-hour recording session of Patricia Barber on 8 tracks of tape, you can probably digitise it at hi-res and fit all eight tracks separately into one SACD or DVD-A. Therefore, the technology now exists to sell the raw master tapes, unmixed, unprocessed, to the end-customer. And the customer will need the mixing and processing facilities in his SACD player. We don't need all the knobs and controls of a full mixing desk... all we need is the facility to upload a mix config file into the SACD player for each album. And the album can come with one (or more) studio-recommended mixing configs, allowing you to select the mix that you want on your player. If you don't like any of the configs, you can upload your own.
If this begins to happen, you'll see the Internet becoming a tremendous archive of config files for mixes for certain albums. Most users will use the mix configs supplied on the SACD by the publisher, but some people will create their own configs, download config files from the Net, and so on. You'll have people swapping their customised config files for a certain album. You'll see someone saying "My mix config for Love Over Gold sounds better than the studio mix, if you have slightly smallish stand-mount speakers" and so on. It will open up a totally new world of access to the music. The recording and mixing engineers won't go out of business.... they'll just become one source of mix configs. In fact, reputed mixing engineers will probably get into business selling their own fine-tuned mix config files for popular albums. "You don't like what Naxos did to their mix of Beethoven's Ninth. Try this mix config, and see the music come alive. Ten dollars, please..." :D
As one of my good friends often says... the possibilities are immense.
The obvious flaw in this approach: how much will a full mixing hardware in an SACD player cost? Won't it be too expensive? Well, the answer is ... not really. A large part of the cost (not a majority, but quite a large part) comes from the controls... the knobs and switches and meters. When you eliminate all that, the cost drops a lot. And then, if you do all the mixing in the digital domain, digital electronics may be less expensive than analog circuits to do the same job. And for controls, all you need is a data link to a PC, which will run a special software program to display a mixer console. That way, those who want a full-fledged mixing desk can get it without the costs of physical pots and switches.
What do you think? :) |
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| cogsncogs |
Rixta wrote:
| quote: | | choosing our own amount of compression level to add to it. |
You can already do something like that in a prog like "Sound Forge". Compression/expansion. But once the waveform is clipped it stays clipped! I haven't tried expansion in sound forge so I can't comment on the quality/artifacts.
| quote: | | So all's left that could be done with this compression problem is for studio engineers bands ectra to release a Special version of a cd/album for people like us on this site ? |
| quote: | | Wouldnt that be nice |
tcpip wrote:
| quote: | | And the album can come with one (or more) studio-recommended mixing configs, allowing you to select the mix that you want on your player. If you don't like any of the configs, you can upload your own. |
Yes, but very unlikely. Not cost effective. Plus you'd be playing around with someone's work, you would need license from the recording company eg. Warner, EMI etc. to remix, re-eq, RE-PRODUCE. Otherwise copywrite infringment. There might be some bands willing to do that from like say their own web site. But I don't see anything like that in the near future for the major record labels.
| quote: | | And the album can come with one (or more) studio-recommended mixing configs, allowing you to select the mix that you want on your player. If you don't like any of the configs, you can upload your own. |
I don't think a lot of bands or producers would like a **it load of config files with different mixes-eq's (that they worked so hard on) and such that were done by you or me and everybody's uncle floating all over the net. Would you?
Yeah I've had that same dream many times to remix an album and do it RIGHT! But that would be in my mind how I wanted it to sound and not theirs.
Sorry guys but that's the way I see it.
Cheers
Wayne ;) |
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| Rixsta |
Fair enogth mate
interesting stuff i see your point and it's quite valid
well this subject is open to any more thoughts and ideas |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by cogsncogs
Yes, but very unlikely. Not cost effective. Plus you'd be playing around with someone's work, you would need license from the recording company eg. Warner, EMI etc. to remix, re-eq, RE-PRODUCE. Otherwise copywrite infringment. There might be some bands willing to do that from like say their own web site. But I don't see anything like that in the near future for the major record labels. |
I can't comment on cost effectiveness, and that's a moving target anyway. But about copyright infringement, I seriously doubt there will be any such issues. I'm not suggesting making copies or republishing music here. I'm only suggesting that we (the end-user) be given the equivalent of super-sophisticated tone controls.
From the conceptual and legal point of view, what I've suggested is no different from having separate tone controls for the left and right channel. Even such controls allow a very, very primitive version of mixing, and we don't see any IPR infringement issues there, do we?
| quote: | | I don't think a lot of bands or producers would like a **it load of config files with different mixes-eq's (that they worked so hard on) and such that were done by you or me and everybody's uncle floating all over the net. Would you? |
Yes, I would. How many bands do you know which will mind it if their listeners, sitting in the privacy of their own living rooms, tweaked the tone controls to suit their tastes?
But then, that's me. I can't account for the opinions of a lot of bands and producers. :D |
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| cogsncogs |
| quote: | | How many bands do you know which will mind it if their listeners, sitting in the privacy of their own living rooms, tweaked the tone controls to suit their tastes? |
I don't think we are talking about tone controls here, at least I'm not.
I was thinking more along the lines of REMIXING, Re-Producing and Remastering. I think that's a lot different than tone controls IMHO. It's akin to changing the lyrics and the music itself. In your own living room is one thing. But uploading a (your's or mine) config file available for anybody to download is another. That was my thinking.
:Popworm:
I would love to have the 16 track master of Pink Floyd's DSOTM!!, and a several hundred others! :D :drool:
Cheers
Wayne ;) |
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| Karoliina |
If someone wants uncompressed music, you can find it here:
http://www.ampcast.com/karoliina
Especially Entropy 1 - overture has no compression of any kind.
Nearly direct output of the synthesizers.
No equalization either. I dislike equalization as well because
it makes the music sound different than I intended with
the original sound.
I have heard some complaints from people that the recording
is low quality because it has low volume level. The low volume
level is because it has great dynamic range and the highest peak
is at 0 level and the other area is lower respectively. Compression reduces sound quality, not only in classical music recording, but I feel that also in electronic music. I can use compression however to create a sound I intend to do.
As comparison, some my old tracks are heavily compressed.
For example TrueDreams 3.
If you listen to Entropy 1 overture and the old version of TrueDreams 3 or TrueDreams 4, you'll notice the difference. The Entropy 1 sounds much more airy and is easier
to listen at high SPL levels. However, to hear it properly, one
needs a moderately high quality audio system. It will be pain with built-in laptop speakers. You will need high volume setting to hear the low volume thunderstorm from the background properly.
The thunderstorm is by the way 100% synthetic, no samples were used. The sound is a Nord Modular patch called donnerwetter. I think it was created by my music friend Fin (Christian Worton, www.worton.com which previously owned this Nord).
Best Wishes,
Karoliina |
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| Rixsta |
| quote: | Originally posted by cogsncogs
I don't think we are talking about tone controls here, at least I'm not.
I was thinking more along the lines of REMIXING, Re-Producing and Remastering. I think that's a lot different than tone controls IMHO. It's akin to changing the lyrics and the music itself. In your own living room is one thing. But uploading a (your's or mine) config file available for anybody to download is another. That was my thinking.
:Popworm:
I would love to have the 16 track master of Pink Floyd's DSOTM!!, and a several hundred others! :D :drool:
Cheers
Wayne ;) |
Mee too
as for the pink floyd mee too lol
The album Meddle by floyd i love |
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| Rixsta |
| quote: | Originally posted by Karoliina
If someone wants uncompressed music, you can find it here:
http://www.ampcast.com/karoliina
Especially Entropy 1 - overture has no compression of any kind.
Nearly direct output of the synthesizers.
No equalization either. I dislike equalization as well because
it makes the music sound different than I intended with
the original sound. |
How about a passive Equilizer maybee they would not add much unwanted sound and colour ect
I think i use too much eq in my music because my speakers and amp are S**te
but i think if you want it to sound right in general you will have to use at least a small amount of equilization.
even if it's to match the sound of all the instruments in a recording.
but then again a muffled or relaxed sound on say a keyboard might be the effect you want so it dosent sound so upfront in a piece of music.. It's all just a matter of taste but in general i say only use small amounts of eq. |
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| Rixsta |
Hi Karoliina
i am just listening to your songs now and so far i am enjoying ;)
although i mainly listen to rock music i am a musician myself and can apriciate your stuff.
i will coment more on it later.
Cheers |
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