| SkinnyBoy |
| basically.. 2 friends of mine are making an electric violin.. :) father, and daughter.. :) anyway.. he has started work on the body of the violin, but I'm not too sure if it will work.... its going to be made of polypropylene (I think.. lol) poured into a silicon mould, then rotated to give the "walls" of the body (understand?) anyway.. I feel that this is going to act very much like a normal violin, except very poorly tuned... most electric violins don't have a body as such.... another problem is the pickup... there are 2 types.. piezo, and mangetic.... the question is, which one should be used on this violin? the problem is going to be that it will act like a normal violin.. in which case a piezo is required.. except its a badly make violin.... :S:S: lol THANX!! |
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| Jarno |
Hello,
Making a hollow electric violin out of Polyprop doesn't seem like a good idea, it's simply to weak. If they insist to make it hollow, using glassfibre or carbonfibre with a wooden skeleton seems like a better idea. But, usually people want a massive (solid) electric violin because feedback is much less of a problem, practicing is much easier (if neighbours are giving you a hard time), and a solid piece of wood is damn nigh indestructible. There are also people of course, who go for a particular sound. I can imagine making a few chambers in a solid instrument to add an acoustic touch to the electric sound (look for guitars and basses made by Godin, or the Fender Telecaster Thinline). But making a complete hollow violin is a disappointment a think, plastic doesn't sound as nice as wood does. Regarding the pickups, magnetics only work when all the strings are metal of course. Usually, piezo's under the bridge are used to "electrify" instruments (although, at one time I had plans to put a small mike in a hollow chamber in a bass to add the aforementioned "acoustical" character).
Hope this is useful.
Regards,
Jarno. |
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| SkinnyBoy |
| ok.. maybe to plastic I said was wrong.. I dunno.. lol but either way I know it will sound bad.. :p I personally think he should just stick with a skeleton body... so just the outside shape of the violin is made... and make if from wood... even just MDF.. :) and use a magnetic pickup :) |
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| SkinnyBoy |
something like this...
*stolen without the permission of some person on ebay :p* |
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| Jarno |
Well, I would go for a nice piece of wood like ash or maple.
Making the magnetic pickup should also prove hard, I think. A piezo pickup is easier implemented. Just buy a couple of piezo buzzers, crack them open and place the piece of piezoelectric material under one, or both the legs of the bridge, add high-impedance preamp, et voila!
Greetings,
Jarno. |
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| Jarno |
Think that's a Yamaha, right? Very nice instrument indeed. I myself have been drooling quite some time now over the electric double bass made by Yamaha. I do think these instruments are overpriced though (at least they are in the Netherlands). Acoustically the only active part is the middle bit. You can actually remove the esthetical parts from the double bass, I am not sure if this would make the violin unplayable.
These instruments are probably all equipped with piezo transducers.
Greetings,
Jarno. |
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| SkinnyBoy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jarno
Well, I would go for a nice piece of wood like ash or maple.
Making the magnetic pickup should also prove hard, I think. A piezo pickup is easier implemented. Just buy a couple of piezo buzzers, crack them open and place the piece of piezoelectric material under one, or both the legs of the bridge, add high-impedance preamp, et voila!
Greetings,
Jarno. |
well.. can a piezo be used with a skeleton type violin? :) |
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| SkinnyBoy |
| so you think a piezo is quite possible?? but won't that pick up any time you bump the violin or whatever?? |
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| Jarno |
| Of course, because a electric violin has also got a bridge. String tension is the "sound-creating" factor, and string tension is the same for an acoustical or an electrical violin. |
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| Jarno |
| By the way, in lots of shops where they sell musical instruments they have piezo transducers for guitars. I think these have a higher fidelity than your average cracked open piezo buzzer. |
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| SkinnyBoy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jarno
By the way, in lots of shops where they sell musical instruments they have piezo transducers for guitars. I think these have a higher fidelity than your average cracked open piezo buzzer. |
ok.. thanx for that..:) how hard would it be to test a normal violin with a piezo?? not that I have access to a violin.. lol |
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| Jarno |
| Not very hard I suppose, just slacken the strings a bit, slip the piezo electric disc under the bridge and a fiddling you go. |
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| SkinnyBoy |
| yeah.. great.... lol got a schematic for a preamp suitable to plug a piezo pickup into a line input on an amp? :) lol |
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| Jarno |
I haven't got a schematic of this, but perhaps on www.harmonycentral.com or perhaps Rod Elliott can help you out?
Greetings,
Jarno. |
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| SkinnyBoy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jarno
I haven't got a schematic of this, but perhaps on www.harmonycentral.com or perhaps Rod Elliott can help you out?
Greetings,
Jarno. |
ok thanx :):) I'll talk to "daddy" some time soon... lol maybe tomorrow :) ("daddy" as in the girls dad... not mine.. lol) |
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| SkinnyBoy |
| and.. what is the frequency range of a violin? :) I mean, what range would a speaker have to cover connected to an electric violin? :) thanx :):) lol |
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| Jarno |
| I don't know the frequency range but I suppose that a "ordinary" hifi loudspeaker setup (2-way) will do. |
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| SkinnyBoy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jarno
I don't know the frequency range but I suppose that a "ordinary" hifi loudspeaker setup (2-way) will do. |
yes.. but I was wondering about the low end frequency... because I am thinking about making a stand alone violin amp and speaker... lol :) |
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| Le Basseur |
Hi guys,
I'm currently building a dedicated violin combo amp for a friend who electrified his instrument by using a Fishman piezo transducer.Since I'm a pro violin player myself (I do this for a living) and I'm also building tube equipement,both high-end and instrument amps and boxes,I'd have some comments on your thread.
First of all,the "all-plastic" body,no matter it's a full or a hollow one,is a undesirable idea.Moulding/shaping all kind of composites is a real PITA and the last thing you'd want is to become frustrated because such a construction doesn't fulfill the minimal requests regarding strenght when you tune your instrument.If you take a look all over the 'Net,you'll see that dedicated brands use a central reinforcement piece,going by the head of the violin to the very bottom.Yamaha Silent Violins are a good example,though I deeply HATE those Yamaha products for their poor finish,unstable mechanics and very noisy electronics.And yes,they're way too overpriced for what they offer!
(I appologise for being so radical about a line of products wich may be appreciated by some of you).
If you want some construction details,please try Zeta electric violins.These are the best series-produced el.violins available.
Also,you'd might want to take a look on some electric violins made by some Scottish luthier (I forgot the name,but you'll find it by "googling" a little).
Regarding the piezo transducers,I'd say you have to go with a dedicated product,not a "general-purpose" one for the sake of accuracy and frequency bandwidth.A violin's bandwidth is not limited to only a few KHz's,as some might think,but it's going way up 'till the ultra-sonic range.Of course,on an electric or elctrified instrument you don't get the same harmonic distribution as heard on an acoustic one,but still there are some strong harmonic upper components up to,say,25 KHz.
I have to say some things about choosing the right speaker for this application.I've tried almost all commercial amp for acoustic violins and I drawed my own conclusions,despite the overly-hype claims and brand's advertisments.There are two issues to remind:
1.As some of you might know already,an amplified violin has a "bump" around 270 Hz (this is the low "C" note on the G string),wich is very hard to tame using a classic 3-way EQ.
Strangely enough,but it seems that no commercial brand is aware on that (Yamaha claims their solely AS60-112T acoustic amp is intended for violin,viola AND cello!).In other words,without having a parametric mid or a fixed mid working precisely in that area,you'd have a very hard time to accomplish a good result.
This is one of the main reasons I accepted to go "the hard way" (building a violin combo for my friend) instead of just buying a commercial product.
2.Because of the more extended upper range required in a violin amplification,most brands use a "dedicated bass-middle driver" in conjunction with a dome tweeter,thus making a 2-way system.
(....no,there is NOT a bi-amping approach,only a cheap passive filter...).The filter network is set to work in the most un-appropriate zone,this is right in the upper mids!,and it's literrally killing your tone because of the phase-shifts that are occuring in such networks.
For my project,I used a 12'' full-range driver,the kind wich has a whizzer-cone.Apparently,nothing special,(most brands are manufacturing this kind of drivers),but it'll ensure an overall uniformity on both freq. AND phase.
The required freq.bandwidth it's not an issue,since the lower G open string has a freq.of about 190-200 Hz,depending of the overall tuning of the instrument,so every fair driver should be able to handle with this.
End of rant,:D
Le Basseur |
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| Jarno |
Hello Le Basseur,
It's great that you've "revived" this thread, because I think it's an interesting topic and the "electrification" of acoustic instruments (apart from guitar) is stil very much "uncharted" territory (if you compare it to guitar).
I haven't got a great deal of time right now (I'm at work) so I will read your post more thoroughly later on, but one thing springs to mind. If the low frequency extension is of no concern, why did you use a 12" driver? Even with a whizzer cone these go only up until about 5kHz max., at least nowhere near 25kHz. You could try the Jordan JX-92 aluminium full range driver, but I don't think that driver reaches 25kHz, more like 15kHz.
Maybe a coaxial 10" driver like SEAS makes them could be the solution.
Regards,
Jarno. |
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| Le Basseur |
Hi Jarno,| quote: | | the "electrification" of acoustic instruments (apart from guitar) is stil very much "uncharted" territory (if you compare it to guitar). |
You're partially right...up to a certain level of professionalism the el.violin is a "white spot on the map",comparing with the huge guitar industry.This can be explained by the very poor interest of violinists when "electrifying" their instruments (most still prefer mikes!).Another possible reason is a nearly total lack of technical application and disponibilities regarding this cathegory of musicians (I'm one of them up to the technical stuff,where I bliss!:D ),but these are supplementary reasons not to leave things "as they are" or at some BIG companies'will.| quote: | | why did you use a 12" driver? Even with a whizzer cone these go only up until about 5kHz max., at least nowhere near 25kHz. |
Well,this might be a "longer-than-needed" story...to keep things short, 15 years ago I went to tube amplification both for home high-end and instrument purposes,because I couldn't take anymore that endless game of buying/reselling transistored components wich didn't fulfilled my "ears'needs".(...mind you,I'm a pro musician,not a millionaire,so I cannot afford those Mark Levinsons....).Shortly after the "tube enlightment era",I went to one-way way (horns with Lowthers),as a direct developement of the saga.
...So, you see,I'm pretty much into this kind of drivers and aside of the Lowther products I'm able to appreciate wether a given full-range driver is appropriate for a certain application or it's only an "all-round duty" driver.
The driver I choose has a fairly high magnetic field and a relatively low membrane mass,so I'm not concerned at all about it's upper freq.response.(...I quit looking at the diagrams a long time ago!...like I quit buying components by reading some "well-established" publications...)
| quote: | | You could try the Jordan JX-92 aluminium full range driver |
In fact,I did once...excuse me,that was two times:the first and the last!:D
....and all I can say is that I don't wish to try dealing with a METALLIC membran:dead: !| quote: | | Maybe a coaxial 10" driver like SEAS makes them could be the solution. |
Yes,maybe a 10'' unit should solve the speed issue and I was about to reccomend that...but,again,NO tweeters (as found on a coax design) because the reasons I already exposed.I also thought about Fostex drivers!
Regards, |
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| amroe |
| Clearly, magnetic pickups only work with steel strings, and yet seem to be generally accepted in this thread. Does that mean that violin strings are steel? |
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| Le Basseur |
| quote: | | magnetic pickups only work with steel strings |
This is a statement wich maybe explains the overall confusion about violin strings and their caption by means of an electro-mechanic transducer.(No offence,amroe,:D ,just keep reading the following lines!)| quote: | | Does that mean that violin strings are steel? |
Not necessarily...
There are a lot of brands and types of violin strings out there and maybe it's time to clarify some details regarding a violin string's construction.
There are 3 major types,depending of the core's string material:
1.The gut strings.
Having a long history background ('till the 19th century,these strings were the only kind available due to technological aspects of string making),these strings are made from cat gut.This is the same biologic material as found in old surgery when closing an open wound or incision.
Up to a certain historical moment,the cat gut strings were used "as-is",meaning that there were no wrapped with some metallic outer "shield".This partially explains the evolution of the violin AND the absolute pitch,because the raw cat gut is very sensitive to humidity and temperature,thus being a very unstable material.
At the end of 18th century,some strings makers tried to improve the string design by wrapping around the gut core a thin metallic layer.This is the very beginning of the modern string's era,as known today.
The modern production of gut strings is a highly-regarded one,because the gut strings are the best sounding products on most older instruments.
Brands producing gut strings:
-Pirastro
A wide sellection of gut-based strings as well as metal-core and composite-core strings.
The Pirastro's gut strings have a precisely-machined gut core,a silk layer tightly streched on the gut and an outer metallic protective flatwound layer.The metals involved are aluminium for A and D strings and silver for G string.
This are the most common Pirastro's features,but there are also some variations,e.g. on the most expensive sets (Pirastro Olive) the metallic wrap is silver on all three (A,D,G) strings.
The only string wich involves the use of steel is the E string because of thickness,tone and mechanical resistance reasons,but please note that there's allways a composite steel there (containing significant ammounts of nickel,magnesium and other metals),NOT the traditional steel as known from the electric guitar strings.Also,there are specific situations (the Pirastro Olive E string) when there's an additional layer of a precious metal (18-karat gold) covering the surface,for long-life stability and tone considerations.
-Kaplan
A genuine American brand wich was bought in the '80's by the D'Addario Corporation.
Kaplan products are an excellent replica of the Pirastro's,but somewhat hard to find on the market.
2.The "metal-core" strings:
These are the most common used strings nowadays,from pupils to pro's.
The design of these strings imply a steel core (round-or hexagonal-shaped),on wich is wound a thin synthetic silk and the outer metallic flatwound layer.
Again,the outer layer is most often made of nickel or aluminium,not of steel.
Brands producing metal strings:
-Pirastro:a wide variety of designs and prices,adapted to each pocket and taste
-Thomastik-Infeld:
Austrian brand wich patented the use of a six thin steel core instead of one thicker core.The advantage of this design is an increased string's flexibility regarding the "one-core" design.
-D'Addario:
American brand specialised in guitar and bass strings,but currently making a wide variety of violin strings,due to the fusion with the defunct Kaplan brand.
3.The"composite-core"strings:
Instead of using cat gut or steel as a core,these strings have plastic composites.The most common is sylon (something similar to the tennis strings),but there is a whole industry out there developing those composite plastics under different exotic names.
The use of the composite core is a "gut wannabe" thing,meaning that these strings exhibit a tone similar ot a gut string,soft and expressive,but offers a more extended stability on external factors and a better durability.
Brands producing composite-core strings:
-Pirastro: (...again!;) )
Good and reliable products
-D'Addario
-Thomastik-Infeld:
With the "Dominant" variety of strings,the Austrians keep a meritory place.Dominant strings are the preferred strings for students,average players AND electric ones.
-Corelli:
A relatively new brand,very good-sounding but slightly over-priced.
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Please note that this is only a surface scratch of the entire story.There are also numerous other brands manufacturing violin strings,but I intentionally kept the things short because I don't intend to write a novel about this subject.Also,please note that there are some other "exotic" brands,such as "Wolfram",wich makes the entirely string production out of....wolfram! (...and please,don't you dare to ask about thir prices...).To have an idea how they sound,please give a listen to the Finnish cello quartett "Apocaliptica" (some of the members use "Wolframs").
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Back to the basic amroe's question,when choosing the "right" string to be played on an electric violin fitted with a magnetic pickup,you have to look on both core AND outer wrap materials.
If at least one of these two elements are made of a magnetic metal (steel,nickel),than it should be OK.
My point about this issue is that I'd NEVER use a string type just because it has to be "sensed" by a magnetic pick-up.In my oppinion wich follows my experience,I never saw or heard a magnetic violin pick-up,to be at least of the same quality as the most average piezo or mike is.Unfortunately,this is another aspect of the "electric violin's childhood",because a magnetic pickup for violin was never developed as the electric guitar counterparts.
If somebody asks me,I'd choose the best string set regarding playability,tone,feeling,tonal balance and endurance,put them up and stick with the best microphone,piezo or optical ("Lightwave") transducer I can afford.
The rest can be easily set by using the most appropriate electronics (preamp,processors,etc) wich suits my taste.
Hope you got something helpful!
Regards,
Le Basseur |
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| amroe |
| quote: | Originally posted by Le Basseur
<snipped out lots of good info>Back to the basic amroe's question,when choosing the "right" string to be played on an electric violin fitted with a magnetic pickup,you have to look on both core AND outer wrap materials. If at least one of these two elements are made of a magnetic metal (steel,nickel),than it should be OK.
Regards,
Le Basseur |
Thank you for the unquoted but excellent introduction to violin strings (I'm new to the subject).
But I'm unconvinced that my original post was incorrect - I agree that if either the core or the wrap are suitably magnetic, then a magnetic pickup should work, and didn't suggest otherwise.
On the subject of suitable magnetic materials we do differ - while Nickel (and for that matter higher grades of stainless steel) certainly are magnetic, IME they are nowhere near magnetic enough to be of practical use with a magnetic pickup - for that you need either plain steel, or a very low grade stainless steel.
Finally, my only real intention was to imply that magnetic pickups on violins are not a good idea; apart from string compatibility issues, the technology would be trivial to develop, but the extra mass on the body at a critical point and the "comb filter" frequency response would seem to detract from the idea. |
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| phase_accurate |
| quote: | | ......and the "comb filter" frequency response would seem to detract from the idea. |
I still wonder why piezo pickups are not more common on electric guitars and basses for this exact reason. Why you see them once in a while on amplified acoustic instruments they are very rarely used on solid-body instruments.
I have a CD by Victor Wooten where he uses a bass with piezo-pickups on some tracks. The result: crystal clear sound !!!
Sorry for being off-topic.
Regards
Charles |
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| Le Basseur |
Hi amroe,
I appologise if you eventually took my words as a direct attack to you,it wasn't intended in NO WAY to be something like that!:)
I just felt there are some unanswered questions hanging on the air and tried to communicate some info's/attitudes/approaches from a pro musician point of view rather than of a techie's...:D
(...and,besides,please note that English isn't my native language,therefore it might be some misunderstanding from my side...:smash: ).
I'm glad we agree on the main subject,this is the unsuitabillity of using magnetic pickups on violins,for the reasons you just mentioned!
For phase_accurate:
I'm also playing electric bass,so I might give some details about this by comparison.
The use of piezo transducers on guitars and basses,both solid-body and hollow-body is an entirely different story.
Please note that on a violin you might place the piezo either on the body,or on the wooden bridge,or on the final piece (the triangular one anchoring the strings),and is pick up a very robust ammount of vibrations.
On most guitars and basses,the piezo element is found ONLY at the bridge,under each string's node (...it's really weird why actually all brands stuck with that),thus picking up a totally different sound structure.
I agree about Wooten's clear sound when using piezo caption,but I know there are some other factors implied in his sound:very bright-sounding strings,his specific technique of playing,the electronics he uses,etc.I'd rather say that what you hear on Wooten's stuff is a mixture of top-class instruments (Fodera) using top-class active PU's wich are BLENDED with a certain ammount of piezo caption.
When I bought my 6-string bass 3 years ago I tested/played every bass I could find on the market,and I finally choosed an instrument having the best wood my money could buy fitted with two Alnico 5 magnetic pickups,but NO PIEZO.Of course,it's a matter of taste,but speaking of "accuracy" and "crystal clarity",I guarantee you that my non-piezo bass isn't muddy at all!
Cheers, |
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| phase_accurate |
I am playing the bass guitar too, and neither are my basses muddy. Though they are not that fashionable anymore nowadays (a Kramer DMZ 6000B in it's original state and an Aria Pro II fretless with added preamp and exchanged pickups) and they don't belong to the "Rolls Royce section" either.
My main concern is just that the place where you put your magnetic pickups is always a compromise. Depending on what note you play, they will always be positioned (more or less) under a node for one or more overtones. You said that the piezo under the bridge is also in a node for ALL notes (and all their overtones). That is true of course. While the magnetic pickup's output voltage is proportional to the string's velocity, the piezo pickup's output voltage is proportional to force so placing it under a node shouldn't be a problem.
Regards
Charles |
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| Le Basseur |
Hi Till,
...Marleaux,huh?
.....mmmm,goodie-goodie.....;)
I had the honour to listen Mr.Weber's live recital and workshop last summer in a jazz festival and I was for a few minutes at a close distance from his bass.Unfortunately,I'm not able to tell you what kind of transducer he uses (I didn't ask him such details,because there was a crowd there and everybody was talking music,not techie stuff),but judging by what I heard during sound probe and workshop/recital,it's surely a piezo thing.
...though,a weird-sounding one,without any trace of the harshness and brittle usually associated with such kind of transducers.
For Charles:
I had for a long time the same dilemma trying to figure out what is "the best sweet spot" for a PU's placement.Actually,my interest was concentrated in this issue for the virtual placement of my Roland V-Bass PU,because I was very curious about a certain instrument's "sweet spot" (Fodera AJ Signature model).
I launched this questions in various bass forums,but no one was able to give an exact answer....obviously,who owns such an instrument plays it day and night and doesn't have time to post on the Net!:D
However,I found some other link containing some valuable informations:
http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponse/index.html
Hope you'll find something interesting here!
Regards, |
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| till |
I build instruments together with Gerald in the same workshop before he really started his own business. Thats ... years ago. I made some bass guitars and guitars that time, if i will find some time i will post pictures. I never managed to do this work for a business, to much other things happened inbetween and also iīm involved in woodworking still i make other things now. i donīt know if the harshness is really from the piezo - and iīm not so sure if the transducer itself is the main part responsible for sound quality. In the instruments we have low power circuits for preamplification, and my impression always was these circuits have shortcomings alone from the fact they are made from low power opamps. How good they are adapted to piezos ... Another thing with influence on the sound is the connection between piezo and wood, and the place. A few mm may change a lot - a lot of coincidence involved here.
I never really seriosly did play these instruments, and also i would still be very interested in building and experimenting this does not happen because iīm not into the musician scenen.
For the sweet spot of pick up placement i donīt think it exists. The sound is different, more full to the middle and bright and more overtone to the end of the string. But this does not mean one place is really the best. I think mostly they are placed were is enough space and it looks good - and a lot of myth is spread around for marketing reasons. You may find a place that is really not good, but this happens incidently same as acoustiv instruments may have a fundamental resonance by accident. An old instrument builder i knew had this, he build string instruments and one of a series of identical had a bad resonance ("Wolf"), so he descided not to sell the instrument but hide it away on his attic... |
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| till |
| i went over to the workshop - build a piezo monocord. Piezo is from an old cheap piezo tweeter . At the scope i can make something that looks pretty like a sine. With the scope 10MOhm in get up to +-5Vpeak! i donīt know what input impedance opamps they use for the preamp inside the instruments, but high impedance with 9V block batterie may be a reason for bad sound. |
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| till |
| and the spektrum with piezo into soundcard looks like. Soundcards impedance must be much lower as scope, not much left from the +-5V. |
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| Le Basseur |
Hi Till,
Thank you for sharing your experiment and it's results.
I had the same impression regarding the true reasons of a piezo's harshness.I remember the first generations of Ovation guitars fitted with piezo transducers (...apart from the initial spectacularity,on a second listen,they showed THAT caracter),and things being somewhat improved on the later versions.
Do you have an idea on how to build a "harsh-free" on-board piezo preamp for our beloved instruments?
...Maybe a hint?...Anything?
Thanks, |
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| till |
| I think for a better in - instrument preamp the problem is we would need more voltage. Batterie power and low power design may be not the best way. An external powersupply providing real voltage and the opportunity to build something with discrets or opamps at +-18V and some more bias would be my way. I also wonder why mostly dynamik PUs and sometimes piezos are used, but i donīt know any case of build into instrument micophone capsule. I woudl really like to experiment with these, but i would need an instrumentalist for the testing and valuation. |
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| Le Basseur |
| Sorry for not being in your proximity,but I'd gladly cooperate on this and I'm open for every idea you have! |
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| madfiddler |
We've got a number of people building electric violin on my fiddle forum so it may be worth you checking it out and chatting to people,
Cheers,
Mark. |
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