| Christer |
From Diamond buffers to Dr. Diamond :)
Does anybody know anything about this guy and the DBTs he
claims to have performed and the demonstrations he has made
at AES?
http://www.diamondcenter.net/digitalstress.html
Maybe he is serious, maybe not. In either case, he is obvously
trying to sell a product to "cure" the "digital fatigue", but what is
it? A pill? An electronic gadget? A turntable (well, for $25, probably
not)? I couldn't find anything about what the product actually is. |
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| eStatic |
| I confess that I know only what I read in the link posted. But I think I've heard of this cure in other places and I'm pretty sure it's based on oil extracted from Crotalus Adamanteus. ;) |
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| Pedja |
Did you know about this?
http://www.anstendig.org/
Take note on the three articles under Sound reproduction > The missing information in all cd recordings.
Pedja |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pedja
Did you know about this?
http://www.anstendig.org/
Take note on the three articles under Sound reproduction > The missing information in all cd recordings.
|
No, I had missed that. Very interesting indeed. They seem not
to have published anything in scientific publications and the
documents are mostly claims and references to expreiments and
studies that seem not documented, not on the site at least.
They do seem very serious in their purpose, though, and I would
agree on much of what they say from my own experience,
especially regarding the influence of sounds and vibrations on
humans and on stereo as a big non-event in recording history.
Obviously, Mr Anstendig himself has a genuine background in
music and photography according to his CV. It seem much of
the documentation of the studies is only available at the institute.
Hm, I wonder what a flight ticket to SF costs nowaday? :) |
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| mrfeedback |
A repairs colleague once told me that he has a psychologist customer who has observed this digital 'stress' factor also.
As I was told, this therapist had relaxation music on cassette tape that he used successfully in his client sessions.
When the cassettes wore out he bought cd copies and playing these to his clients caused them to climb the walls.
Dubbing these cds to cassette reduced the problem according to what I was told.
I find things like having a cdp just turned on but not playing can cause an irritating/disturbing effect - I do live sound on Friday nights, and the in-rack cdp puts a faint but unmusical veil into the FOH sound that disappears when it is turned off.
This applies to home hi-fi systems too in my experience.
There are remedies that minimise/eliminate the disturbing effect, but pills in a bottle are not ones that I have tried.
These therapists in the links are correct in describing 'digitalis', but in my view a little misguided in their solutions.
Eric. |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by mrfeedback
There are remedies that minimise/eliminate the disturbing effect, but pills in a bottle are not ones that I have tried.
These therapists in the links are correct in describing 'digitalis', but in my view a little misguided in their solutions.
Eric. |
Yes, maybe it is digitalis? ;)
Well, my point was that Dr. Diamond doesn't even tell us if ithis
product is a drug, or some electronic gadget (a filter) or whatever.
It is just sold as something to relieve, or cure, or whatever the
digital effect with no further description. Maybe it is just a pair
of earplugs for $25? ;) |
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| mrfeedback |
| quote: | Supplements
Life Energy Plus ($25.00)
Potentiated Life Enhancement.
Used to alleviate many of the negative effects of PCM "digital fatigue" It also demonstrably alleviates some of the negative e.m.f. effects of, for example, computers, TV, and mobile phones, all so much now a very large part of our daily lives. |
He says Supplement, so I expect this means some kind of pills, probably herbal.
Hi-fi saleman and used car dealers have nothing on these kinds of therapists/experts in my view.
These guys are talking about patterns in the sound affecting health/mood etc and are correct in their observations, however the correct solution is in altering the sonic and RF radiation emitted by equipment and not in pill bottle or wine bottle form for that matter.
My systems and those I have modified for friends (including live systems) have no such negative effects, and distinctly positive ones and noticed by all users.
Eric. |
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| Christer |
Yes, I suppose the term "supplement" is clearer to you native
speakers. It cetainly souded like he is trying to sell a drug, but
considering the text of the article it seemed so improbable that
he would suggest some kind of drug as a cure. There are several
more or less serious actors in the sound/music therapy field but
none of those I know of recommend any drugs. To the contraty,
they propose their methods as alternatives to drugs. Well, (one
of) the first serious medical studies suggest a combination for
the cases they studied.
Maybe this Dr. Diamond suggests taking a drug to stand his
music therapy because it is now digital. ;) |
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| eeka chu |
I think there is, without a great deal of doubt, truth in the idea that digitalized music causes stress...
What's interesting is to question why that might be the case. For example, why would we have evolved to prefer a more analog system? I suppose most life is, by definition, organic and analog in some way or another.
Perhaps we find complexity and randomness more useful? I would guess the more complex or random something is the more possibilities it has to evolve...
And that is why tubes are better than silicon! :D |
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| RHosch |
| The universe appears to be inherently digital in nature. This notion of stress by digital fatigue is about as ridiculous as the offered cures. Perhaps the frequency response limitations of 44.1kHz, or any anti-aliasing artifacts present at the highest near-audible frequencies could contribute to such an effect, but then that is a limitation of redbook audio and not digital recording in general, is it not? |
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| roddyama |
| As I said before, the 22kHz brickwall anti-aliasing filter is the bane of our existence,... eh, at least of our hobby, and now, it appears of our good health. |
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| SY |
Hilarious. I didn't know Diamond was still around. This was all the rage in the underground magazines maybe 20 years ago. the tests he was doing then were laughable. And now he's selling "life enhancing supplements." Just hilarious.
Saaay, I just got some email from a guy who's selling a supplement guaranteed to extend my... uh-oh. Never mind. |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
Hilarious. I didn't know Diamond was still around. This was all the rage in the underground magazines maybe 20 years ago. the tests he was doing then were laughable. And now he's selling "life enhancing supplements." Just hilarious.
|
Ah, that was the kind of answer I expected to pop up sooner or
later. So then we just have to ask if he is mainly trying to sell
his drugs or if he is paid by Sony to say that PCM is dangerous
but DSD is OK. :)
You wouldn't happen to know anything about that Anstendig
Institute in SF that Pedja linked to? They give a more serious
impression and are non-profit, but there seems to be little
evidence of their claims. They are certainly studying interesting
things, if they just do it properly. |
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| SY |
| quote: | Originally posted by Christer
You wouldn't happen to know anything about that Anstendig
Institute in SF that Pedja linked to? They give a more serious
impression and are non-profit, but there seems to be little
evidence of their claims. They are certainly studying interesting
things, if they just do it properly. |
"Non-profit" means little over here. I can set up a group which pays me a nice salary, lets me travel to nice places, puts me up at nice hotels, and as long as I'm doing these things in the "service" of that organization, write the organization's charter in such a way that I assert that it's there for some public benefit, and I use up all the money every year, I'm a non-profit. It's more of a tax arrangement than any kind of imprimateur of qualification or objectivity.
My impression reading through their site is that they're one of a million goofy organizations for which California is famous. There must be 10,000 of them in San Francisco. |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
"Non-profit" means little over here. I can set up a group which pays me a nice salary, lets me travel to nice places, puts me up at nice hotels, and as long as I'm doing these things in the "service" of that organization, write the organization's charter in such a way that I assert that it's there for some public benefit, and I use up all the money every year, I'm a non-profit. It's more of a tax arrangement than any kind of imprimateur of qualification or objectivity.
My impression reading through their site is that they're one of a million goofy organizations for which California is famous. There must be 10,000 of them in San Francisco. |
I was afraid of that. Too bad, since they are doing or claim to do
certain very interesting and important things. Still, Mr Anstendig
must at least have some interest himself in what he does/claims to
do I suppose. He would hardly write up all those paper just
to get around the tax laws. Doesn't make his claims true, though. |
|
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| SY |
| Exactly. There are npos dedicated to spirit healing, channeling, crystal energies, psi, past life regression, dowsing, chi-balancing, necromancy, flat-earth, creationism... pick your poison. Many are run by perfectly sincere people. |
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| Elso Kwak |
Digitalitis has caused raging outburst on my part going completely out of my mind.:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
Thanks God and KC-8 I am now in quiet waters:mad:
When the CD was introduced we noticed that a cassette tape recording of the CD was more endurable than the original; an observation that puzzled us.:bigeyes: |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
Hilarious. I didn't know Diamond was still around. This was all the rage in the underground magazines maybe 20 years ago. the tests he was doing then were laughable. And now he's selling "life enhancing supplements." Just hilarious. |
Yup. And just shows that degrees and "credentials" are no guarantee against quackery or charlatanism.
Mark Levinson (the man) hooked up with this clown a few years ago issuing a breathless press release about the harmful physical effects of digital audio, promising to soon produce a bunch of data to back it up.
As far as I'm aware, Levinson produced nothing.
I guess he found it more profitable to slap $2,000 pricetags on Chinese-made amplifiers that sell retail for $130. :)
se |
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| Pedja |
One time ago when I posted that link to AA, IIRC some key words in replies were “loonie from the Bay Area”, “tarot cards”, “Jupiter aligned with Mars”.
But… what does Thomas Dolby have with all this?
Pedja ;) |
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| RHosch |
To be fair, I decided to read a bit of Mr. Diamond's website and give him a fair chance. I didn't get very far. :rolleyes:
| quote: | | Perhaps the most obvious example of this is the fact that at the age of seventy, when some 50% of American males are already dead, some 80% of musical conductors are still alive, healthy, and productive. |
As I said, I didn't get far. Anyone who would use statistics in this manner is obviously pushing an agenda, selling a product, or simply an idiot, any of which disqualifies him/her from be a reliable source of information (and all might well apply to Mr. Diamond).
In case my objection isn't obvious, I'll outline it. Most deaths occur at either a young age or an old age. Duh. Your chances of living to be twenty increase greatly once you reach an age of two or three. Your chances of living to be seventy increase once you reach an age of twenty. Statistically, you don't stand much chance of living to be ninety-five, but if you've already made it to ninety your chances are actually pretty decent. Seems pretty obvious, right?
So in his "example", the group of "American males" includes plenty of deaths of infants, children, teens, etc., of which there are a lot of, even in this day and age. The group of "musical conductors" requires an entry age of, what, 25 or so minimum? Therefore, it hardly surprises me that 50% of American males on a whole die before reaching the age of seventy (I have no idea how accurate that is) but 80% reach the age of seventy once they have already reached the age of twenty-five. Wow, what a shocker. I'm convinced that being a conductor is the path to long life and prosperity. No, wait, all I have to do is take "life energy" enhancing supplments.
What a quack. :rolleyes: |
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| Christer |
RHosch,
Good point. Just that he doesn't do statistics right doesn't mean
the other things must be wrong, but there are a lot of suspicious
things in what he sayd. PCM is bad, bad DSD i OK since it uses
higher sample frequency. Well, what about DVD-A then, isn't that
PCM at a higher sample frequency which at leat theoretically
gives better HF resulution than SACD?
He gives me the impression of riding along on the wave of the
more serious listening therapy people. There are a lot who do
that, trying to make easy money or even think they can cook up
something as good in one or two days. The main reason I bothered
to post was his claims about DBTs and demonstrations to AES,
without much further reference. He also tries to make a more serious
impression by not mentioning his supplement at all in the text.
It appears only in the title and if you click the supplement button.
Edit: Actually many conductors start their career much earlier
than 25, and they have been exposed to music since early childhood,
which is probably what would count, so musicians should have the
same benefit, if there is one. |
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| kelticwizard |
| quote: | Originally posted by RHosch
In case my objection isn't obvious, I'll outline it. Most deaths occur at either a young age or an old age...
.....So in his "example", the group of "American males" includes plenty of deaths of infants, children, teens, etc., of which there are a lot of, even in this day and age...
... but 80% reach the age of seventy once they have already reached the age of twenty-five..... |
RHosch:
You are very off the mark in your statistical "debunking" of Dr. Diamond. He is also somewhat off the mark, but he was speaking in general terms. You were speaking more specifically.
I will give you credit for one thing, though. You are correct in pointing out something people should realize, but don't-the longer you live, the higher is the age you are likely to reach before getting tickets to The Great Concert In The Sky. :)
According to year 2000 statistics, at birth the life expectancy of an American male is 74.1 years. At age 20, his life expectancy is 55.2 years-meaning on average he will reach 75.2 years. Only a 1.1 year increase for surviving two decades-that is not much.
I presume similar numbers for most advanced nations, it is just that these were the sites I knew how to get to-I've looked this up before. ;)
That is as it is now. As time goes on, presumably these ages will rise bit by bit.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/pdf/nvsr51_03t11.pdf
I neither disparage nor support Dr. Diamond's findings, just the statistical analysis this has led to. On the other hand, my advice to people who believe Dr. Diamond is not to tell your friends or family that you are taking "stereo supplements" at twenty-five bucks a batch. :xeye: People have been committed for less. |
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| mrfeedback |
"RN : The danger here is that the more qualified you are, the more you ‘know’ that something can’t be true, so you don’t believe it. Or you ‘know’ a design can’t be done, so you don’t try it. Ignorant idiots like me don’t know it can’t be done, so we have a go and it works. {Laughs}"
Rupert Neve is no idiot, and maybe a few 'experts' around here should take note of his quote.
Myself and others can 'sense' when a cdp is turned on.
Interestingly Philips/Marantz cd players are less disturbing than typical Jap ones.
There are all sorts of new age theories etc about colours, frequencies etc afffecting 'life energies', and maybe CDP sampling frequency is on a 'bad' one.
Also, be aware that speakers radiate an audio modulated magnetic beam in line with the pole-piece straight across the room, and this can be verified with a suitable pickup coil and amplifier.
We have magnetic sensing as do many other creatures.
Eric. |
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| john curl |
| I have been tested by Dr. Diamond. His method works, but then what do I know? SE and SY are so darn sure, without trying to understand, or test, what Dr. Diamond is all about. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by john curl
I have been tested by Dr. Diamond. His method works, but then what do I know? SE and SY are so darn sure, without trying to understand, or test, what Dr. Diamond is all about. |
Placing photographs of yourself in your freezer works too, John. And it doesn't even cost anything. Why haven't you tried that yet?
se |
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| SY |
| quote: | | His method works, but then what do I know? |
Electronic design. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Placing photographs of yourself in your freezer works too, John. And it doesn't even cost anything. Why haven't you tried that yet?
se |
I've been planning on testing the photograph thing for a long time now and somehow never came to really do it. It would be interesting to "hear" the results and I would be really disappointed if I didn't hear any;)
So they can be B&W and should be placed in separate ziplocks or the same one? |
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| kelticwizard |
| quote: | Originally posted by john curl
I have been tested by Dr. Diamond. His method works, |
Does that include the supplements? What bothers me is that he goes into no detail about what is in the supplements, how they might work, or anything else.
The other things Diamond said I find not outlandish, though I am hardly in a position to test. But it seems almost irresponsible the way no mention is made of ingredients in his supplements. What about possible interactions with various medications, among so many other things? |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
I've been planning on testing the photograph thing for a long time now and somehow never came to really do it. It would be interesting to "hear" the results and I would be really disappointed if I didn't hear any;) |
Well ya never know. It's worked for a number of others.
| quote: | | So they can be B&W and should be placed in separate ziplocks or the same one? |
I imagine black and white would be ok, given that one of the photos has to be one of yourself when you were a child and the other as an adult. And since a lot of us were children when color photography wasn't so common I'd hate to see so many people left out.
Some of the details are mentioned in this article:
WHAT A MESS!!!! -- An alternative view of reality
Assorted other information can be found here:
P.W.B. Electronics Home Page
And you can read the discussions of others at the Peter Belt Yahoo Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PWB/
se |
|
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| Peter Daniel |
| Well, that's a really good info, thanks. |
|
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by john curl
I have been tested by Dr. Diamond. His method works, but then what do I know? SE and SY are so darn sure, without trying to understand, or test, what Dr. Diamond is all about. |
John, since there are several things discussed by Dr. Diamond,
could you please be more specific. Are you referring to his music
therapy, his claimed DBTs of analog vs. digital sound or,
less likely, the so called supplement? |
|
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Christer
John, since there are several things discussed by Dr. Diamond,
could you please be more specific. Are you referring to his music
therapy, his claimed DBTs of analog vs. digital sound or,
less likely, the so called supplement? |
I believe John's referring to Dr. Diamond's "test" which he uses to demonstrate his claim of greater stress produced by digitally recorded music.
Basically it's based on how easy or hard it is to push someone's arms down while they're listening to digital or analogue music. If they're listening to analogue, it's supposedly easier to push their arms down than if they're listening to digital, indicating that the listener is less stressed and more relaxed.
Attempts were made to duplicate his results (which included a tester who was coached by Dr. Diamond himself on the technique) but were unsuccessful.
se |
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| Christer |
| Well. let's hear what John says himself instead of guessing. |
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| mrfeedback |
"Basically it's based on how easy or hard it is to push someone's arms down while they're listening to digital or analogue music. If they're listening to analogue, it's supposedly easier to push their arms down than if they're listening to digital, indicating that the listener is less stressed and more relaxed."
From http://www.worldtrans.org/TP/TP2/TP2A-67.HTML
.........."Basically, strong means "Yes" and weak means "No". Whether a Yes or a No answer is most desirable depends on what we ask for, but most often we will ask in such a way that a strong response is good. As in "Do you feel good about yourself" - Test - should be strong, meaning "Yes"...............
I have seen muscle testing work accurately.
Eric. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Christer
Well. let's hear what John says himself instead of guessing. |
Sure.
Though the test I mentioned is still worth mentioning.
se |
|
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Sure.
Though the test I mentioned is still worth mentioning.
|
Yes. Seems there would be much better ways to do such a test.
Checking pulse, blood pressure, or even used extended listening
sessions and check the level of stress hormones in blood samples. |
|
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| janneman |
| quote: | Originally posted by Christer
Yes. Seems there would be much better ways to do such a test.
Checking pulse, blood pressure, or even used extended listening
sessions and check the level of stress hormones in blood samples. |
Christer, you want to do it reliable and repeatable, thereby spoiling the party??:D
Jan Didden |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by janneman
Christer, you want to do it reliable and repeatable, thereby spoiling the party??:D
Jan Didden |
;) |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
I guess he found it more profitable to slap $2,000 pricetags on Chinese-made amplifiers that sell retail for $130. :)
se |
exactly. had the Chinese charged him $1300 a piece, the amp would have sounded much much better, without all this digital fatique.
Afterall, those super cheap DVD players start to sing like Domingo if you just pay more for them.
:) |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
Afterall, those super cheap DVD players start to sing like Domingo if you just pay more for them.
:) |
I wonder how Domingo would sound if were paid much less? ;) |
|
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by Christer
I wonder how Domingo would sound if were paid much less? ;) |
like those super cheap DVD players, I guess.
:) |
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| FLZapped |
From the article's website:
| quote: | | After many years of research I have at last formulated a supplement combination called LIFE ENERGY PLUS™ which appears to alleviate many of the effects of PCM |
So it's all to sell his amazing supplement.
He lists a NY address, however, two different searches show there is no John Diamond, MD, listed in South Salem, NY, probably because he is a chiropractor.
Further if you read his resume you get statements like this:
| quote: | | is a pioneering figure in alternative and holistic medicine....One of the foremost senior holistic healers |
Hark, I hear a duck and it isn't from AFLAK......
-Bruce
(I think it's safe to throw the baby out with the bathwater on this one) |
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| sobazz |
Just a note... a couple of years ago a woman sued Intel. She claimed that micro waves or radiation or something else from their microprocessors caused a serious impact on her health.... sorry, I havent't even read the thread... only the subject. :scratch1: :bigeyes:
But maybe heavily distorted music cause stress on long term basis? |
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| SY |
| The key word is "claimed." I can sue my next door naighbor, claiming that he's beaming x-ray lasers at my windows to try to control my thoughts. |
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| kelticwizard |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
...sue my next door naighbor... he's beaming x-ray lasers at my windows to try to control my thoughts. |
You have that problem too? My next door neighbor has been trying that for years!
But I've thwarted him. :smash: Thank God I found the website below-I don't know what I would do otherwise.
http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html |
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| jewilson |
Sy
Wow: ALEX CHIU'S IMMORTALITY DEVICE .. Maybe this is the cure for long term listening to CD's and even MPEG-2 video.
Of course there alway his theory on UFO's:eek: |
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| john curl |
Folks, I don't know what to say. I met Dr. Diamond at an AES convention. He is an interesting, 'new-age' guy. I read his book. I had him over to my place for a day or two. I also built some recording equipment for him.
This is what I know: Like many tweakers, Dr. Diamond is short on conventional 'proof' , but he makes sense to me. Dr Diamond is a psychologist, or something similar. His therapy has included listening to music. He did this for years. Unfortunately, when digital audio came out, he found that the positive effects of music therapy was lost. He investigated this problem and decided to give a talk about this at the AES. I was there, when he gave his paper. He almost caused a riot! It was great! Made my day.
After the sesson, Doug Sax, of Sheffield Records, and I went for a drink, to celebrate this talk.
When he came to both my lab and my home, he tested me with a number of things: For example, I then wore an analog watch, BUT I was found insensitive to wearing a digital watch. I WAS sensitive to a sugar cube dissolved in my mouth. IF I could have beat him in his testing, I would have. I don't like being fooled any more than anyone else.
However, my significant other, Karen Richardson, normally wore a digital watch, and she was found sensitive to it. We tried many things, including digital. It was very interesting. What did he get out of it? Nothing, but some interactive feedback by a reasonable skeptic. Does he have a tendency to exaggerate? Yes, but no more than many others in the audio world.
This is my take. At least I know the guy. |
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| kelticwizard |
| quote: | Originally posted by john curl
I then wore an analog watch, BUT I was found insensitive to wearing a digital watch. I WAS sensitive to a sugar cube dissolved in my mouth....my significant other, Karen Richardson, normally wore a digital watch, and she was found sensitive to it. |
Sensitive in what way? What was the reaction? |
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| jewilson |
John,
Does this Dr. Diamond believe that digitally recorded music played on CD’s have a worse psychological effect than analog-recorded music played on a CD. Maybe, some people or just more sensitive to phase and the time delay errors with digital.
:boggled: |
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| Christer |
John,
as you might have seen me indicate in other threads, I am very
interested in the field of music and sound therapy and have myself
undertaken the Tomatis metod. That is why I was curios if your experiences
with this man was about the therapy methods or the analog/digital
issue. The oldest and most influential sound therapy method is
the Tomatis method, and the second most influential one, but perhaps
the biggest one in the US, is the Berard method, which originated
as an attempt to make a simpler and cheaper version of the Tomatis
method. AFAIK, the practioners of the Tomatis method has not
found any negative effects since they switched over to CDs, and
I presume the Berard people have also switched over to CD without
finding any ill effects. However, it is important to note, that in both
these cases it is not just plain music therapy, but the sound is
heavily filtered and processed in various ways tailored to each
individual. That could have an impact on the end result. I have
definitely not found any fatigue from the Tomatis method while
listening. To the contrary, I have never been so alert and fresh
in my brain as after those sessions. There is, for various reasons,
a serious shortage of scientific proof about these methods, but
some positive scientific studies have been done, and there are
quite a number of such studies ongoing for the moment
at various hospitals around the world. While I believe Tomatis
and Berard to be serious, there are many others who try to ride
along on this. Some are serious and may even have effective
methods, others are charlatans or serious but using failed
methods. I had never heard of Dr. Diamond before and since he referred to DBTs I was curious about him. I seriously doubt a
medical drug/supplement could be useful for what he claims,
however, if that is what he is actually selling. |
|
|
| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by jewilson
Does this Dr. Diamond believe that digitally recorded music played on CD’s have a worse psychological effect than analog-recorded music played on a CD. Maybe, some people or just more sensitive to phase and the time delay errors with digital.
|
My impression from the article was that it didn't matter, as soon
as you had used PCM, the sound was ruined, whether analog or
digital from ths start. I may hav got that wrong though. However,
he seems to accept DSD but not PCM. I think he referred to an
LP with the same work on both sides, one had gone through PCM
processing the other not, or something like that. |
|
|
| KBK |
| quote: | Originally posted by jewilson
John,
Does this Dr. Diamond believe that digitally recorded music played on CD’s have a worse psychological effect than analog-recorded music played on a CD. Maybe, some people or just more sensitive to phase and the time delay errors with digital.
:boggled: |
I'm so sensitive to phase distortion I can hear the crossover, box, panel, room, and phase distortion of a given speaker before I even enter the room to hear it. I can tell you how good a speaker is going to sound by simply tapping the woofer, the box, etc. Trained to hear 'tails' or resonant struture in noise, etc. High temporal sensitivity. This goes along with looking at audio equipment in general.
This... because I have trained myself, over a long period of time in single cause analysis. I can't listen in a serious fashion...to anyone's gear but my own. DIY'ers are overall like that anyway, so it's not like it's something special.
The point is, that I can't listen to CD players. Unless I'm drunk out of my tree..even then they sound like painful ****. The temporal distortion in the media and system is just awful. Transients, and envvleops on harmonics are just plain all wrong. No one can buld a single piece of decent audio gear while using digital audio sources as tool for tuning said device.
Fixing the clock on digital hardware got rid of almost all my complaints. |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by KBK
Fixing the clock on digital hardware got rid of almost all my complaints. |
Which brings us back to the jitter issue again? |
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| jewilson |
Christer,
We all know that jitter is not a real part of music, so that issue should not be part of this thread. However, what kind of equipment does Diamond uses when listening to music and subjecting his clients to it.
When digital audio first came out it was worse than FM radio by a long shot. However, they were many reasons for that. Still the common 44.1Khz CD format suffers the low sample rate. You just can create a complex waveform from 2 or even 3 samples, maybe a bad looking sine wave. In addition, listen to symbol’s they still sound as much like breaking glass than as symbol’s. Therefore, what kind of phase and group delay to we have from all this digital processing and over sampling. Seem the psychoacoustic effect is worse for some.
So it this effect lessen on SACD it should be, that my guess.
:) |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by jewilson
So it this effect lessen on SACD it should be, that my guess.
:) |
Yes, SACD is better than CD. Howver, it seems, at least in theory,
that PCM with more bits and higher sampling frequency like DVD-A
is superior to SACD for the higher frequencies. I haven't really
bothered to check up on those claims, but they sound reasonable,
so if that is the case Diamonds dismissal of PCM and acceptance
of SACD is somewhat flawed. I have, however, never heard any
DVD-A discs, so I have no experience with them. I have heard a
few hybrid SACDs and compared CD and SACD layers. In two caes
the SACD was clearly better. In the third case both sounded
terrible. That one was recorded using PCM and converted to DSD,
but I suspect it had more to do with DGs usually lousy microphone
technique and mixing obsession. |
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| sobazz |
| SY, you got my point! |
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| KBK |
Maybe I'm breaking some rule that I am not aware of but.....
In my exact experience in this exact area:
Chase the clock. Jitter IS the issue. The probelm is temporal/sync in nature. Jitter specturm, or jitter bandwidth. Jitter is part of the reproiduction system so it is certianly part of the muisc. it cannot be seperated in this case or sense. As long as any part of the reproduction chain is digital in nature.... Jitter is definitely an issue.
All the clocks I've heard so far don't do a very good job..... so.. what to do?
If you had someone in the Montreal/Toronto corridor who's ears you trusted, then I could let him hear a good clock, then people would not think I was full of ****. But after that they would all be chasing me down for the clock and I would have to dismember it and shelf the idea. oh well. In the end I'd rather you think I was crazy. Life's simpler that way. |
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| wintermute |
| quote: | Originally posted by mrfeedback
[b]"RN : Myself and others can 'sense' when a cdp is turned on.
Interestingly Philips/Marantz cd players are less disturbing than typical Jap ones.
Eric. |
Hi Eric,
Just out of interest, my old (now defunct) pioneer PD-5100, used to interfere with my monitor when it was turned on with nothing playing. The monitor was my telly (amiga 1081), and was sitting on top of the cd player. So I guess the player was emitting some form of EMI. I can't remember what the interference looked like, but I know it was bad enough for me to turn off the player.
Tony. |
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| mrfeedback |
Yes, and try tuning an AM radio near most cd players !!!.
Eric. |
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| DrG |
Got here late... been on holiday. Here's my titbit addition...
There exists a subset of people who *need* to believe in the paranormal fringes of any issue. Witness the followers of homeopathy, faith-healing, aromatherapy and the like. Not to mention those who swear by magic speaker cable, electret foils and similar gadgets of dubious scientific integrity.
Without getting into cable debates, placebo-effects or cancer miracles, there exists a further subset of humanity who prey upon these followers of paths less travelled. Opportunists and/or misguided statisticians who can convince otherwise intelligent people of the validity of contrived, confabulated "problems" and thence of their own miracle "solutions".
And with all due respect, Dr Diamond falls squarely into this mould in my opinion. Nothing he claims is rooted in established fact or based on repeatable scientific experiment. I believe he is a charlatan so smooth he could convince his followers that the word "gullible" had been removed from the Oxford English dictionary... |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrG
Without getting into cable debates, placebo-effects or cancer miracles, there exists a further subset of humanity who prey upon these followers of paths less travelled. |
maybe the darwanian thing to do is to leave those cable-believers alone? |
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| SY |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
maybe the darwanian thing to do is to leave those cable-believers alone? |
Maybe the better thing is to take an open-minded but skeptical view- ask questions, and if it looks, sounds, and is being sold like hooey, it probably is. But ALWAYS be open to someone with actual evidence, no matter how goofy the idea.
The before and after pictures sent with the Magic Extender pills spam emails don't count as "evidence." |
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| thermionic |
| quote: |
Chase the clock. Jitter IS the issue. The probelm is temporal/sync in nature. Jitter specturm, or jitter bandwidth. Jitter is part of the reproiduction system so it is certianly part of the muisc. it cannot be seperated in this case or sense. As long as any part of the reproduction chain is digital in nature.... Jitter is definitely an issue.
|
Anyone that pays attention the recording market will tell you that one of the big growth areas in studio audio has been external clocking units (such as Apogee's Big Ben) in the last couple of years. Many reputable engineers have reported massive improvements with external clocking...
I can only view this scenario as a weakness on behalf of oems failing to implement stable clocking; one experienced engineer I've communicated with has stated that if an external clock offers improvement then that has got to be a serious illustration of how poorly implemented most oems internal clocking is. I agree, and would imagine that external clocking units will gradually fade into obscurity as oems gradually figure out how to increase the accuracy of internal clocking, particularly with regard to jitter free interfacing between multiple units which is where external clocks really score. |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by thermionic
Anyone that pays attention the recording market will tell you that one of the big growth areas in studio audio has been external clocking units (such as Apogee's Big Ben) in the last couple of years. |
It may be so in other parts of the world that external clocking units are a big growth area in studio audio. All I can say, based on my (very) extensive research, and that of a few consultants we had hired, and an US company that is absolutely a leading player in studio audio that external clocking is NOT a high growth area for studio audio / professional audio.
In terms of market potential, I would say that DSP, remote sound control / dignostics, digital amplification and networking of digital audio devices are the high growth area. The latter is especially interesting: it is basically trasmission of audio, in digital format, across a multi-format multi-media network. Each node on the network can be a speaker (with digital interface), or mixing console, or microphone, or a transmission point to / from other networks.
for those golden ears or people who are into $10K/ft cables, you should really look inside a studio electronic box and see what your "precious" signal has gone through before hitting your exotic cable, or Egyptian maple boxes. It is not an exaggeration to say that a 5532 or a 1% metal film resistor is high-end to even the high-end studio equipment in production today. a BG cap would be a Bentley to Ford Escort, :) |
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| DrG |
millwood:| quote: | | maybe the darwanian thing to do is to leave those cable-believers alone? |
Do you mean "Darwinian"? If so, I guess we'll just have to wait and see how things evolve...;) |
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| RHosch |
I can tell how a speaker is going to sound by simpy blowing a gentle stream of air across the front baffle. My ears are so sensitive to phase distortion that I can tell the order of a crossover network of a pair of non-connected speakers sitting in their shipping containers simply by the spectrum of resonance decay of the speakers which were excited by ground vibrations as I pull up to a house in my car. When someone turns on a microwave next door, I can tell you if your speakers are coincident source or not, even if they are not playing at that moment. Thumping the manual sent with a pair of speakers will reveal to me their maximum SPL output, and thumping the connected speaker wire will reveal the spectal contamination at those levels.
I can hear resistors that are wired backwards. I can easily tell whether a voice coil was wound clockwise or counter-clockwise. I can hear the difference in total laser return path lengths in various CD players. I can hear the difference between records that use different glues for the labels. I can tell what color the jewel case for a CD is... usually just from the sound of thd CD player and without the need to connect it to the rest of the system. And I can tell when someone at the power station takes a **** just by sticking my tongue in a light socket.
Oh, and I designed the worlds most accurate recording microphone. It is so faithful that even crappy speakers sound like the real thing during playback. It would be worth millions on the market, but for now I'm only using it to test my own gear. I would let others hear it, but then my talent would be "out of the bag" and I would never get the really important things done... like finishing the design of my perpetual motion machine. |
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| mrfeedback |
Originally posted by RHosch
I can tell .......................................... |
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| Jax |
| Oh, he smokes the fine stuff from the Sarcasm district near Irony, Virginia. |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by mrfeedback
Originally posted by RHosch
I can tell .......................................... |
the same stuff you were on when you detected that cable directionality, :) |
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| RHosch |
| I did? Man, that must have been some really good stuff then, because I don't recall having accomplished that magical feat... |
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| KBK |
| I was under the impression that we Canadians had the best......:drool: |
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| KBK |
Hate to go off topic, but I -just- realized we have a skill here that industry might be able to make some use of, and you guys seem like a likely bunch to come up with a use for it: We can grind any ferromagnetic particles to a size that is quite likely at better than the best available at this time. I wonder of anyone has a use for such a skill?
Oh yeah, that probably goes for any powdered substance that is relatively safe to grind.
The factory's custom grinding methods grind all incoming pigments to a quality that averages twice that of any in the in the pigment industry. We can get more out of the system but can't be bothered. It's not a priority......Challenge us. :) I haven't looked at that machine yet. I think it can be improved signifigantly. |
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| mrfeedback |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
the same stuff you were on when you detected that cable directionality, :) |
LOL.......perhaps I should share some with Steve Eddy......
Eric. |
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| janneman |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pedja
Did you know about this?
http://www.anstendig.org/
Take note on the three articles under Sound reproduction > The missing information in all cd recordings.
Pedja |
Pedja,
I started to read it, until I noted that they don't understand sampling theory. They do not understand that even with two samples at 20kHz, AND the reconstruction filter after the DAC, which is an integral part of the system, you can perfectly capture and reproduce this 20kHz signal. It is amazing to see how many people are willing to criticise and comment on things they have no clue about.
Also, they start critisizing CD, then the whole reproduction system, then use that to say CD is not good enough. In other words: ignorance, misleading and logically flawed reasoning.
LOL, indeed.
Jan Didden |
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| SY |
| quote: | Originally posted by KBK
We can grind any ferromagnetic particles to a size that is quite likely at better than the best available at this time. I wonder of anyone has a use for such a skill?
Oh yeah, that probably goes for any powdered substance that is relatively safe to grind.
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What sort of size are you talking about? And I assume that you're using something more sophisticated than a three-roll mill? I know that finely divided iron is VERY reactive to oxygen- can the process be done with the exclusion of air?
| quote: | Originally posted by mrfeedback
LOL.......perhaps I should share some with Steve Eddy......
Eric. |
Anything that will mellow you guys out, I'm in favor of. |
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| wintermute |
| quote: | Originally posted by janneman
Pedja,
I started to read it, until I noted that they don't understand sampling theory. They do not understand that even with two samples at 20kHz, AND the reconstruction filter after the DAC, which is an integral part of the system, you can perfectly capture and reproduce this 20kHz signal. It is amazing to see how many people are willing to criticise and comment on things they have no clue about.
Also, they start critisizing CD, then the whole reproduction system, then use that to say CD is not good enough. In other words: ignorance, misleading and logically flawed reasoning.
LOL, indeed.
Jan Didden |
I gave up when I realised that most of the articles were written in the mid 80's. As far as I am aware (and I may be wrong) DAC's and ADC's have come a long way since then.
Tony. |
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| Pedja |
Hello Jan,
At 20kHz, with not at all naive fuss, all it can do is reproduce bare sine wave. What this fuss means one can realize when takes into account that not a lot of people who had a chance to hear it without all that fuss (non filtered) still prefer the fuss. This way we stay with squares, staircases, amplitude modulation and even some form of frequency modulation, supposedly introduced a few kinds of intermodulation distortion and what not, and it still (mainly) sounds better… interesting story about the format?
Those articles could be written technically more competent though, especially after all these years.
Pedja |
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| jewilson |
| quote: | | I started to read it, until I noted that they don't understand sampling theory. They do not understand that even with two samples at 20kHz, AND the reconstruction filter after the DAC, which is an integral part of the system, you can perfectly capture and reproduce this 20kHz signal. It is amazing to see how many people are willing to criticise and comment on things they have no clue about. |
Jan
It has been my experiences in design of ADC and sampling systems for data acquisition systems at Texas Instruments that Nyquist Sampling Theory has errors at high frequencies. As you approach 2 samples per period, errors can be considerable, we investigated the errors due to finite duration sampling of continuous signal and determined that this error can be considerable at the beginning and near the end of the sampling time window. These errors had a tendency to get larger at higher frequencies as they approach the Nyquist frequency ( fS / 2) for signal near the inside boundaries of the time window.
The easiest way to proved this is to build oscillators using a 16 bit DAC’s with EPROM lookup tables. Program the table with Triangle Waves and Sine Waves then measure the output after the aliasing filter, the proof is in there.
Nyquist Theorem's Consequences
It is worth noting that information about the signal V = V(t) at any given moment in time t n TS is distributed among all discrete samples { V[n] } with appropriate weights. Realistically, we are never presented with an infinite discrete time sequence and are therefore forced to perform the summation over a finite range. This is equivalent to a loss of information about the function V = V(t) not only before and after our time window (which is understandable), but also at the time points between the sampling points. This can introduce errors into the process of reconstructing. :D |
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| john curl |
| Jim, this input is one of the reasons that I contribute to the internet. Sometimes, I learn from someone who has addressed specific problems. Keep up the good work. |
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| john curl |
| KBK, the real problem with magnetic recording is that the particles are noisy when relatively large, but they have infinite print-through when they are too small. IE they change state almost by looking at them. ;-) This is the limit of analog recording, and perhaps digital magnetic recording. |
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| KBK |
I remember getting hammered by the alt.highend newsgroup, way back when the Internet barely or didn't really exist....we communicated via BBS. I stated that we needed something that could sample fast enough to do justice to a 100kHz signal, as a minimum, due to the fact that locational abilities of the human ear require this, amongst the 'learned crowd, ie. audiophiles. Therefore, the limits of human hearing, in this ONE single area, are above that 100khz limit (stereo signal, locational cuing, sensitivity and discernment of source point). What I said was.. that the minimum sampling rate should be at the nyquist minimum for 100khz reproduction, about 226khz sampling or so. Since we work in digital doubling, etc.. I figured it might be 256khz sampling. Now, nearly a decade later..what is Sony using as a archival system?????
Note to all you A-Holes from The Highend news group? :p :p :p I rest my case. :smash: !
Then, what about the temporal intermixing of harmonics? VERY critical.
So, this issue has been addressed via...SACD. Mostly, anyway. But..as an addendum, when I modded my clock in the way I did.. most of the complaints, ie, loss of that critical information...disappeared. Cymbals became VERY clearly discernible in all aspects of what exactly a proper cymbal sounds like. The theoretical and noticeable shortcomings of 44.1/16 bit where still there, but frighteningly lessened in terms of sheer discernible musicality. It was amazing the affect it had on it's musicality. I have a friend I work in loudspeaker design with. He stopped playing records for a few months when he received the unit I made for him. This is no simple task to do to a man who has 10K (mostly Jazz) albums, and makes a living by hearing temporal distortion and harmonics.
As for the grinding. We go as far as we need to go. The mill is totally custom in design, is all I can say. We don't need large amounts, so we don't make large amounts. Sometimes the pigments will be ground for 3-4 days. For example, this can double the effectiveness (amount of Cadmium pigment per liter of produced paint) of a Cadmium pigment, and it is definitely ecenomically worthwile to go through the effort. A small container of such can easily cost $K's dollars. |
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| KBK |
Speaking on the temporal intermixing of harmonics.. I have jury-rigged a system where I can switch from the stock clock to the modded clock on my SACD/DVD-A player...on the fly.
This system is hooked into the Behringer DCX2496 (modified) Digital crossover on the digital input of the Behringer. This, on a prototype MTM Morel based sealed floorstander. The room has about 12-14 custom Tube trap patented absorbers, and modified associated amplification and wiring which I am intimately familiar with.
The results? When the clock is of the modded variety, it is as if the treble level was reduced by about 2 db or more, and with a notch filter reducing the highs in above the 5-10k range or so. Switch to the stock clock...and boom! Noise, hash, hardness and indistinct. Imaging, transient speed, harmonics are all smeared, etc..thus appearing elevated in output to the casual listener.
Once you've heard something like that and had it around long enough to see what it does, there is no going back.
Music, like with turntables.. goes back to being relaxing. Women LOVE the modded digital system..which speaks for itself, to those who know what digital audio equipment does to/for women...... It's basically the ultimate test. Ask a woman who has been around audio equipment all her life what she thinks of it. Then you'll know it's any good or not.
Yours and my opinion don't matter much. Her's does. |
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| mrfeedback |
"Music, like with turntables.. goes back to being relaxing. Women LOVE the modded digital system..which speaks for itself, to those who know what digital audio equipment does to/for women...... It's basically the ultimate test. Ask a woman who has been around audio equipment all her life what she thinks of it. Then you'll know it's any good or not."
Yeah, I have set up a very nice system in my long term GF's place, and if our relationship were to ever end I don't like my chances of getting it back. :eek:
"Yours and my opinion don't matter much. Her's does."
Yes, and if she doesn't like it, that expensive 'bloody stereo' represents a new car, and/or a new wardrobe and/or an overseas holiday denied her, and she will be sure to remind you.
Also be aware that if it sounds bad from the kitchen she may as well be stirring poison and curses both into your evening meal. :bigeyes:
If she likes your stereo then she will probably love you too........works for me!!! :angel: :nod:
Calmness and 'niceness' in sound is what women far prefer above fine detail.
Remember women have the weird ability to listen to and memorize and then recall even years later multiple concurrent conversations in seemingly (to males!) impossible sonic environments .....Skinnyboy you have been warned !!!. :wave2:
I usually willingly value women's subjective review of audio systems in preference to 'mere males' POV. |
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