| KBK |
I've been having fun with my two Pioneer DV-563A units! I'm keeping one for a control unit and modding the beejeepers out of the other one.
I have found the SACD/philips chip tech manual on the net, and well, the job is pretty straightforward so far. The unit seems to be responding very well to changes so far! And DANG.. it's cheap! My inner Scot is snappng it's suspenders.....
I like to give electronics what the techs call 'The Shotgun treatment', which is to go in there and change EVERYTHING.
Anyone else playing with this unit? |
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| ptstv |
| What have you done so far? I have the service manual for it. It looks like a great design from the schematics. I haven't opened one up yet though. |
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| KBK |
I've done what I usually do with equipment. I have no tech manual, but I go in there and do rules 1 through 10 of audio design:
1. Power supply
2. Power supply
3. Power supply
4. Power supply
5. Power supply
6. Power supply
7. Power supply
8. Power supply
9. Power supply
10. Power supply
A bit of exaggeration, but the idea is sound.
signal coupling caps as well, op amp changes, stabilizing the clocking circuit, etc. a bit of physical work on the mechanism helps too.
That manual would be interesting to look at...
One problem with the unit is the the clocking circuit's output is going to a divider circuit where the divider's power supply and signal is too far away, so fixing the divider's power supply really helped out the fidelity of the unit. The good deal, is the BB 192khz DAC (1791) is right at the output. but...the PS lines are way too long ..and weak and noisy. |
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| Demir |
Does this player support multi-channel SACD ? Nothing tells me it does, and I am puzzled as to how it can do SACD alone. A lot of SACDs seem to be multi-channel. Please enlighten me, also, details regarding the schematics would be welcome, especially the filtering used along with the DACs (are they really 1791s ?)
Thanks.... |
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| KBK |
| The Main L+R Stereo DAC is the BB 1791. The other two (rear center) are lesser BB DACs. The PS is re-regualted and filtered very close to the dacs, and they are inches or less from the output connectors. I have re done all the caps at the philips SACD chip, amongst other things. Re-doing the divider circuts has seemingly stabilized jitter components. There is a divider by the main 27Mhz crystal for the SACD decoder, and a secondary divider (same source?) near the output DAC. I have done the PS on all three with os-cons. Output coupling is, of course, crummy electrolytics. The op-amp on the output is ...I can't remember off hand, but it is a single sided PS, much to my chagrin. |
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| Demir |
Have you reduced jitter by changing crystals or oscillators ?
As far as caps are concerned, UCC has a bunch of newer parts that are listed in their newer catalog (called Focus Products 2003a- purple cover)
I am sorry to hear they (Pioneer) haven't use the 1791 on the other channels. Compromises to get to the price point...
So far, the Denon 2200 seems to be a good unit for the $$ but if I can get a cheaper unit with good converters, I would go for it. |
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| Demir |
Hi,
I just picked up this player yesterday. Sounds really good, but not as good as my Denon 3803 for Stereo material.
I'll be opening it up in the next few weeks... |
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| Vinnie R. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Demir
Hi,
I just picked up this player yesterday. Sounds really good, but not as good as my Denon 3803 for Stereo material.
I'll be opening it up in the next few weeks... |
I just bought one as well. I find it's audio performance to be slightly better than my DV-45A (when it was stock) on all formats!!! I also find it's internal pcb and component layout to be better, and all for $179 :cool:
I plan to start mods on this unit in a week or two. I just finished moving and I need to set up my work bench, and I'm waiting for the service manual. I plan to use it as a transport w/ my Ack dAck for Redbook, but I'll use it's analog outs for SACD, DVD-A, and I'll use this unit for DVD video. Picture quality looks great :)
I think this unit has lots of potential. Just take a look at what
www.aplhifi.com has already done.
I hope we can all keep this thread alive and share our tweaks and experiences, and hopefully others will join us as well ;)
I'll be posting my experiences when I start in a week or two.
Regards,
Vinnie |
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| Vinnie R. |
Nooooo! :whazzat:
I called Pioneer and the service manual is on a 4-6 week backorder :(
I can get a few tweaks done without it, but I really need it for other tweaks.
ptstv, are you willing to share the schematics?
Thanks,
Vinnie |
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| larry moore |
I have the service manual:)
How do we go about getting it out there? |
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| Demir |
Hi,
I am disappointed with one result, which may be more SACD technology related than player specific.
The 563 is connected to a Denon 3803 through RCA cables. I also have an optical connection for movies.
For SACD material (multi-channel mode), there seems to be no way to inject the information on the SW channel to the L and R. Hence, a subwoofer is a must. I have resisted getting a sub for music listening and would prefer not going down that path.
The receiver does not process data fed through the Ext In connections. Therefore, I would wish that the 563 outputs L and R in full range, especially since the SW channel is set to Off. This does not seem possible. To my surprise, the SACD material I own (one of which the logo is above my name) seems to have a lot of content in the SW channel.
Does the feature called Bass Management shown in the Pioneer Elite and Denon players solve this problem ?
Any ideas ?
Thanks... |
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| Demir |
| I have a started a thread called Bass management circuits since my question is not about the 563, bur rather about processing the analog SW output... |
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| Vinnie R. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Demir
I have a started a thread called Bass management circuits since my question is not about the 563, bur rather about processing the analog SW output... |
Demir,
Sorry I can't be of much help with multichannel. I have no intentions of using this player for any sort of surround sound, only stereo (even for DVD video). For SACD and DVD-A, I will only be playing them in hi-res two-channel mode, which doesn't not have the problem you posted above. In fact, I probably will disable/remove some of the multichannel circuitry. :cool:
I plan to keep only a L and R rca jack for stereo out, a coax digital out (remove the optical out), and the S-Video and/or component video out). I may put in new, better quality jacks in the future, but I am only using a stereo setup.
I'm sure others are in the same boat as you and want multichannel, so I hope they can chime in and give you a hand.
Regards,
Vinnie |
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| net-david |
| quote: | Originally posted by larry moore
I have the service manual:)
How do we go about getting it out there? |
Larry,
I have webspace that we can use to host the service manual if you can scan it. Probably the best format would be Adobe .pdf.
--David |
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| KBK |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vinnie R.
Demir,
For SACD and DVD-A, I will only be playing them in hi-res two-channel mode, which doesn't not have the problem you posted above. In fact, I probably will disable/remove some of the multichannel circuitry. :cool:
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That's all I want this puppy for myself. I love making these little things perform. Just apply a bit of reasonable modification, ... |
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| Vinnie R. |
| quote: | Originally posted by KBK
One problem with the unit is the the clocking circuit's output is going to a divider circuit where the divider's power supply and signal is too far away, so fixing the divider's power supply really helped out the fidelity of the unit. The good deal, is the BB 192khz DAC (1791) is right at the output. but...the PS lines are way too long ..and weak and noisy. |
Yes, the DV-45A uses this type of topology as well (27Mhz going into a freq. divider). How did you 'fix the divider's power supply' and did you attempt to alter the power supply lines to the BB DAC? What else have you done so far, can you provide us with more detailed info please ;)
What have you done to the power supply unit? I was thinking of starting at the beginning of it by changing the bridge diodes with HEXFREDs and replacing the 250V cap with one that has some more uF's. On the DC side of the power supply, some of those lower quality caps could be replaced with some Panasonic FCs (not expensive, but sound good). Maybe a little more uF's would be good, but I don't like to over do this on switching power supplies.
I'm hoping to start next week.
-Vinnie |
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| KBK |
I haven't swapped the diodes yet, and I haven't done much more than used a bunch of pulled PC MOBO 470-3300uf caps (rubycon, etc..I had swapped out the PC board caps for OS-CONS, to make the fastest PC boards you can get.....very expensive!!!) as replacements on the PS board itself. I have a box of HV caps somewhere, so I should be getting in there and swapping it out...
I re-did the divider's power supply with os-con caps. There are TWO dividers, one at the 27mhz chip itself and one on the last board before the BB1791 dac. I did this the same way as well. A slight change was discernable, but it was enough to make one want to do it. All the buffering of the PS was one at the chips in question and at the re-regulation points for the rails, near the affected circuits.
I tend to look after the motor drive PS as well, as the noise and drain DOES come off of that same power supply.... |
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| machinow |
| quote: | Originally posted by KBK
I re-did the divider's power supply with os-con caps. There are TWO dividers, one at the 27mhz chip itself and one on the last board before the BB1791 dac. I did this the same way as well. A slight change was discernable, but it was enough to make one want to do it. All the buffering of the PS was one at the chips in question and at the re-regulation points for the rails, near the affected circuits.
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Hi and Happy New year to everyone!!!
As far as I know about these /DVD/ machines, 27 MHz is the main clock signal, used for Video and processing. Audio Clocks such as 24.576MHz and 22.xxxx MHz are Derived from this main clock with a PLL, not a DIVIDER /u cannot divide 27 to 24.576
:( / And some benefits and pitfalls:
Jitter of the main clock is reduced or INCREASED to the one of the VCO in that PLL. To make it less, it is necessary to give the PLL a good clean Supply /u know that/. Most of the audio Clock generators, especially designed for this purpose, have 2-3 logic level inputs and a freq. input of 27 MHz - with 2-3 bits of static info they are told to set the output freq. to 22.xxxx or 24.576 or some else freq. - > i.e. they have fixed application , if I can call them so. TI and other manifacturers have such chips, they cost about $1..2 in high volumes - check out PLL1705/06 /i think/ and /?MT?/ 1412
The great problem is that these PLL's has a jitter figure of 75...300pS, which cannot be bettered no matter how clean supply u give them - assuming they have proper layaut and very close to the chip loop filter - look some AN's if interested -> this can be a significant up-grade, in not done well.
For DVD-A and CD, ASRC and fixed freq. low jitter XO can be used to reduce jitter /AD1896 and Tent or Kwak or LC Audio Clocks/ - > this is the greatest solution for me.
regards
PS: the second chip is MK1412, used in the cheap DVD-737 from Phillips. Jitter is 190pS peak, acc. to datasheet. |
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| machinow |
Can anyone send me the service manual for this Pioneer??
regards- |
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| KBK |
| well, it could have been leakage/noise -possibly the PS being used with the same DAC as well, or assocaited circuits. The sonics did improve slightly when the PS for both dividers was buffered with the better caps. Everything affects everything, as it always seems to be the case.... |
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| KBK |
As far as I can tell, there is a third divider on this board for the audio clock into the Philips SAA7893HL SACD chip at pin 29. Taking a quick look at the manual, it may be storing the DSD and audio data in a nearby (opposite side of the processor board) 64mbit sdram module, and pulling the data at the needed times. The divider and the memory sdram are beside eachother, and the tech manual seems to indicate that this NEW DESIGN, second generation SACD multi-process capable chip can take a variety of clocking frequencies and dividers.. so maybe the PLL is not needed? It may just use the master 27mhz clock?
The chip usage block diagram shows a PLL, but there is none that I can see on the Pioneer board. there is apparently a possible spot for it, as the silkscreened numbers on the board itself seems to indicate it (the Pioneer processor board) is an other Pioneer models as well, like the 565 and 566 (if they even exist).
Not knowing anything about all this modern Digital Stuff I will ponder out loud: ....Also, since it is SACD/DVD-A/CD all in one chip.. it may be doing a upsample-process-DAC-downsample trick of some sort, and may not need or use the expected clock frequencies. At least the CD 44.1k and DVD-A 96k stuff may be upsampled, is what I mean,and then fed to the BB1791 at upsampled levels. Why bother with any other configuration?
Philips SACD SAA7893HL tech manual |
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| Vinnie R. |
| quote: | Originally posted by KBK
As far as I can tell, there is a third divider on this board for the audio clock into the Philips SAA7893HL SACD chip at pin 29. Taking a quick look at the manual, it may be storing the DSD and audio data in a nearby (opposite side of the processor board) 64mbit sdram module, and pulling the data at the needed times. The divider and the memory sdram are beside eachother, and the tech manual seems to indicate that this NEW DESIGN, second generation SACD multi-process capable chip can take a variety of clocking frequencies and dividers.. so maybe the PLL is not needed? It may just use the master 27mhz clock?
Philips SACD SAA7893HL tech manual |
Correct me if I am wrong here, but all I see is the 27MHz circuit, and it splits to feed 27MHz into IC701 (SACD IC) and 27MHz intoIC601 (back end IC). I believe that any freq. dividing needed is done inside these chips. All the clocking info used by the DACs is sent to them by IC701. And based on what I see on the schematics, there is NO DSD to PCM conversion. The L/R DAC is IC201, labeled DSD1791, and it inputs DSD or a PCM signal (depending on the format being played). IC601 outputs the SPDIF, along with video output signals.
In terms of clock jitter, like it was mentioned above, I think this is pretty much limited by IC701 and IC601's internal PLLs and such. I'm not sure how much improvement would come about if a really precise 27MHz clock was installed.
Also, I don't see where to beef up the power supply feeding the 27MHz clock circuit. The supply is V+3D, and for the 27MHz signal feeding IC601, it goes through L604 and then directly into pin 8 of the hex inverter type IC (used for buffering I believe). For the signal feeding IC701, the V+3D goes through L606 in a similar fashion to pin 8a different hex inverter IC (only one buffer is used on this IC). Did you add a cap from the pin 8;s of these ICs to GND to make this supply more stable? |
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| larry moore |
Vinnie:
Did ya get the schematic? |
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| Vinnie R. |
| quote: | Originally posted by larry moore
Vinnie:
Did ya get the schematic? |
Yes I did :) Looks great :cool:
Thanks again! |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
I have amused myself extensively with Chip Datasheets. Interesting. Can anyone who has the unit and ideally service manual check if the SAA SACD Chip is used to oversample all PCM to a DSD Datastream and to reclock or if PCM runs on a simple "passtrough"?
If the formaer, you can simply pick up the SACD Datastreams prior to the DAC Chip's for all signals and send them through a basic Bufferamp/Filter. This reputedly sounds pretty good (see Allan Wright) though I was underwhelmed by a machine modified in similar manner, for whatever reasons.
Secondly, for all europeans, the differences bewteen the 563 and 565 seem cosmetic, I have found several references suggesting that the 565 uses the same chipset as the 563 and I would guess mostly identical PCB's too... So all mods should translate well.
Sayonara |
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| KBK |
I could very much use that schematic myself, although at this point is is nearly not needed at all.
BTW, I have done my proprietary clock mod and the SACD chip responds as well as a regular 44.1 CD unit to such ministrations. It does indeed improve the machine dramatically when it comes to harshness and overall coherency. Before anyone asks, I cannot share it. I do apologize. After the patent is applied for, feel free. I will share then. |
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| net-david |
I also need the schematic if anyone would be so generous!
--David |
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| KBK |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vinnie R.
Yes, the DV-45A uses this type of topology as well (27Mhz going into a freq. divider). How did you 'fix the divider's power supply' and did you attempt to alter the power supply lines to the BB DAC?
I'm hoping to start next week.
-Vinnie |
DUH!
Vinne, oh wise one... you are making me smack my head! There is no need for the super long supply lines to the PS for the regualtors for the DAC. Cut the traces and run wires directly to the DAC's PS from the SMPS. |
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| Vinnie R. |
| quote: | Originally posted by KBK
DUH!
Vinne, oh wise one... you are making me smack my head! There is no need for the super long supply lines to the PS for the regualtors for the DAC. Cut the traces and run wires directly to the DAC's PS from the SMPS. |
Gee, do I detect some rudeness? :rolleyes:
I was just trying to confirm what it exactly was that you did, for my and everyone elses benefit (if they are interested). Unless I am misinterpreting your intentions, you seem to be a little edgy. Are you working in a well ventilated area? :D
Getting back on track here, I just ordered a pair of Black Gate NX Hi-Q non-polarized caps (6.3V, 47uF) to replace the stock electrolytic output coupling caps. I've done the same thing a while back on a Sony NS500V and noticed a nice improvement in bass control. Has anyone else swapped out these caps with something else? I have to measure how much DC bias is before the cap to see if it can be completely bypassed. There is also a 200 ohm resistor in series with the output after the cap (used for the muting transistor circuit). I have bypassed these before in my DV-45A but got annoying popping sounds when opening/closing the door and changing tracks, and the 45A uses the same muting topology. A better solution would be using a relay instead of the muting transistors. I may do this, but I want to work on other things first that will probably yield a better improvement.
Regards,
Vinnie |
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| Vinnie R. |
| quote: | Originally posted by net-david
I also need the schematic if anyone would be so generous!
--David |
David,
When I get home from work I can try scanning them. Email me and I will reply with them. How big is your mailbox btw?
-Vinnie |
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| KBK |
| There was no rudness intended. None at all. Humor was the desired effect. I'm just not good at remembering to put smilies in my posts. I saw that this was probably the wisest course to follow for the BB DACs, and that thought came when I read your post again. that's all. :) |
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| Vinnie R. |
| quote: | Originally posted by KBK
There was no rudness intended. None at all. Humor was the desired effect. I'm just not good at remembering to put smilies in my posts. I saw that this was probably the wisest course to follow for the BB DACs, and that thought came when I read your post again. that's all. :) |
No problem, that's the thing with communication over chat forums. It's hard to get a reading on what people may be feeling because you don't hear their tone of voice. Anyway, I shouldn't give you a hard time because you are working on that clock tweak patent and I want to learn about it when the time comes :)
I just ordered a bunch of Panasonic FC electrolytics that I will use on the power supply along with the audio out board. I should finally be able to start tweaking next week. I've been listening to this player stock and getting a feel for its sound, and to be honest, it isn't bad at all :cool: I don't find it to be that harsh, it has plenty of detail, bass is okay (needs to be tightened somewhat, but isn't that bad), and vocals are pretty good sounding too. I look forward to trying different tweaks and letting everyone know the results. This player definitely has a lot of potential.
Did anyone check out: http://www.aplhifi.com/Pioneer563a.html
-Vinnie |
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| KBK |
| Now that I've properly created friction and then kissed and made up, can I have copy of that manual too? ;) my email address is in my profile..and if the file is too big, break it up into two or more pieces. 1 meg per downloaded email is my limit, I believe. |
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| Vinnie R. |
| quote: | Originally posted by KBK
Now that I've properly created friction and then kissed and made up, can I have copy of that manual too? ;) my email address is in my profile..and if the file is too big, break it up into two or more pieces. 1 meg per downloaded email is my limit, I believe. |
Well, I guess :D
When I get home tonight, I'll start scanning and will email it.
-Vinnie |
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| larry moore |
Vinnie, et al.:
I one instance, I replaced the coupling caps at the outputs of the op amps with Black Gates as you suggest, removed the muting transistors, and removed the filter caps around the op amps.
I'm not so sure this was an improvement. And, frankly, I'm not sure wasn't worse. My "Why" follows. First, and I'm speaking generally to all the mods I've done on players, the coupling caps probably helped. Nothing I would call earth shattering; but, they help. Second, removing muting transistors helps, and moreso than the coupling caps just mentioned, at least to my ears. When they're are not driven, they act like caps that are modulated by the music. Removal eliminates this. So, frankly I can't see either of these things making the sound worse. As to the filter, generally removing such filters has helped. However, in this case, I'm not so sure. Frankly, I think I come down with the filters being necessary. Perhaps, this is all the HF in there? But, I was playing redbook, so who knows.
In isolation from the above mods, and on an otherwise stock player, I installed an IEC power socket recently, eliminating the wimpy little fuse on the power supply board in the process. This changed things; but, again, I'm not so sure for the better. Seems to allow adjustment of the width of the soundstage with different power cords. I think I preferred the way things were in my system.
I also poked around with eliminating the output coupling caps mentioned above. Due to the single supply for the op amps, I don't think it is possible. There is always dc voltage at the outputs. And I tried messing with the voltage ref., eliminating the voltage ref, and referencing the op amps to various pins on the dacs. All in all, a no go. Any ideas here?
So, where's that leave us? Perhaps, tx coulping. |
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| Vinnie R. |
| quote: | Originally posted by larry moore
Vinnie, et al.:
I also poked around with eliminating the output coupling caps mentioned above. Due to the single supply for the op amps, I don't think it is possible. There is always dc voltage at the outputs. And I tried messing with the voltage ref., eliminating the voltage ref, and referencing the op amps to various pins on the dacs. All in all, a no go. Any ideas here?
So, where's that leave us? Perhaps, tx coulping. |
Hi Larry,
I think to get away with not using Vref, you need to use a +/-12V supply instead of the +12V and GND supply that is in there. Doing things this way should reduce the DC on the output.
For now I am going to leave the Vref circuit alone and just replace the output caps with the BG's. I've done this with a NS500V and the improvement was definitely noticeable and worth it.
As far as removing the muting transistors, if you do this, you can also remove the 220 ohm resistors that are in series with the signal path which are used to bias the transistors. I have bypassed these resistors and muting transisors on my DV-45A in the past, but get pops when pressing eject, and skipping tracks and such. Besides that, the sound quality did improve as well. A better approach that I might implement will be using a high quality reed-relay instead. Sure, you get a relay in the signal path, but thats better than the 220 ohm resistors. A lower output impedance is best.
I was also planning on installing an IEC connector, but before I even do that I plan to install a 1uF 275V X2 rated cap across the mains on the input. There already is a 0.1uF X2 cap in there, but I find that not to be enough. These switching power supplies really dump a lot of hash back out of the player onto the mains. The cap is $3.25 on digikey (part number P10530-ND). I will also replace the large 250V 82uF electrolytic after the diode bridge with a 250V 150uF Panasonic FC cap, and probably bypass that with an Auricap. This cap smooths the DC that gets 'chopped up' by the switching power supply. One may ask, then why bother? Well, the switcher addes noise no doubt, but it is at a different frequency. It's worth a try and isn't expensive.
BTW, the opamps are Rohm BA4560's (dual opamp IC). Has anyone tried or is considering replacing them. Maybe with a
burr-brown OPA2604??? I am going to leave them alone for now, but may revisit this in the future. The stock opamps aren't that bad to me.
I should get parts in next week and then I'll start modding. I will report my findings of each tweak (doing one tweak at a time). :hphones: |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
First thanks to Vinnie for sending me the scans from the manual. I am still looking at Universal players to use as "Mod" Platform and the mostly identical 565 is high on my list. Here is what I noticed on the 563 Schamtics.
The first thing I was looking for was the SACD Decoder chip.
Now this has theoretically the option to "upsample" any PCM input to DSD. This would allow us to simply take a pair of inverter buffer C-MOS Gates per signal to geterate a differential signal we can lowpassfiler (LC) and apply to an Output Transformer (all channels).
However, this function is strictly under software control, for anyone who own the 563 or 565, is there a hidden menu that allows you to switch this upsampling option on? Otherwise it would require a firmware update, a bit beyound my abilities I'm afraid....
Moving forward from the SACD IC, the "B.E. LSI" IC is clearly a "DVD-Player on a Chip" and seems to generate all clocks etc. from the 27MHz main clock, except the SACD clock which goes direct to the SACD Chip. This mean the PSU noise on this chip will affect the clock precision for DVD-Audio & CD, maybe the reasons for the sometimes noted less than stellar performance of this box with PCM Audio. An Upgrade of the 27MHz will improve SACD Playback and MAY improve CD/DVD-A playback, but I think more milage for CD/DVD-A is in cleaning up the B.E. LSI Ic supplies.
Moving on to the DAC's. They are all pretty dire, by todays standards, consumer Junk, especially LFE/Center & Rear Channels. Luckily all clock and data lines can be tapped, so one could engineer a "daughterboard" 6-Channel DAC using anything one likes really, including non-oversampling or just better oversampling Chips for PCM and LC lowpass filters for SACD plus a suitable switching logic.
Replacing the Analog Stage Op-Amp's is an obvious choise, the AD8620 would seem the hottests ticket in town for the job and comes in a suitable SMD Case. The signle rail nature of the circuit means you need to deal with coupling Capacitors and the capacitors on the "voltage reference" Pins, maybe BG N/Nx Types would work, or polarised ones like Elna Silmic, or if there is enough space Film Cap's, following the formula of 47/Rload (in KOhm) = C (in uF).
The L/R DAC offers a differential Output of 3.2V P-P @ 0dbfs which is around 5db below the normal CD/DVD-A 0dbfs Level, the outputs are load tolreant to around 3K4 differential. This means that as long as the load does not get lower than 10k you could use a 1:2 Audio Transformer directly attached to the DAC as sole output stage, getting an output slightly above the usual 0dbfs levels. The surround sound channels cannot be treated thusly though as they have DC offset single ended outputs and low output levels and definitley need post-amps.
The switching supply is pretty basic, I'd think an external Liear Supply with 12V, 6V & 3.3V plus -28V (Display Anode Voltage) and the Display Heater Voltage (not stated, needs to measured, often around 2V) might be a good idea. The 12V, 6V & 3.3V can be generated from one 12V+12V torroid with suitable regulators, the display heater winding could be handwound on the same winding and the -28V could be generated by a voltage doubler.
You then apply these voltages to the actual supply filter cap's on the SMPS Board (to keep all switching logic in place during powerup) and simply do not power the SMPS Input. Using a 6-Pole lockable plug/socket the external linear PSU can be made optional, with the actual SMPS remaining fully functional if used. The whole linear PSU could be build into a "Seismik Sink" support for the player and also inlcude optional added supply voltages for analog stages and clock.
Such things as mechanical re-inforcement of the Chassis (ideally with Spruce solid- or ply-wood), the rounding off or PCB corners and C37 Lacquering PCB's address other performance areas (obviously) but have their own rewards as well.
Sayonara |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by KBK
...used a bunch of pulled PC MOBO 470-3300uf caps (rubycon, etc..I had swapped out the PC board caps for OS-CONS, to make the fastest PC boards you can get.....very expensive!!!)... |
Please could you briefly explain what benefits this would have to a PC motherboard? I mentioned it to a friend who's very interested in overclocking and performance, and he believes it is stupid to change caps, if they perform adaquately already. Please educate us :)
(Sorry its off-topic) |
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| vuki |
Few years ago I installed linear PS in my DV-525 and it works wonderfull. There is also Kwak-clock in it and few other mods...
Five transformers are in separate box. |
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| Rotellian |
Kuei,
Ive seen you talk about C37 for quite a long time now in various places (starting with the treatment of fullrange drivers i beleive) Where can you get the stuff from in the uk?
Cheers |
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| KBK |
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
Please could you briefly explain what benefits this would have to a PC motherboard? I mentioned it to a friend who's very interested in overclocking and performance, and he believes it is stupid to change caps, if they perform adaquately already. Please educate us :)
(Sorry its off-topic) |
I re-did a ATI Radeon 8500 VGA board with all os-con instead of all the thru-hole and surface mount tantalum and electrolytic caps. Every single last one of them. Quite expensive to do. I recieved the board for free when I was doing beta testing for ATI, so killing it was no financial hardship.
The 8500 board performed 20% faster than a stock 8500..and this with no VGA acceleration software in use. It just operated 20% faster. I used the VGA card for analog output into Highly modified CRT projectors (Electrohome Marquee 8000, with about 400 components swapped out, and silver teflon woven yoke wiring, etc).
Square waves are the most difficult signal in existence to reproduce. They demand more from a power supply than any other signal. Music signal's demand on a PS is a joke in comparison. A square wave goes from DC to lightspeed, and back again. RF drops from the lack, or better controlled back EMF, so to speak, from the square wave itself (mass considerations! The cleaner the PS, the less the RF, thus less heat.) when using a good PS, like one with OS-CON buffers.
The computer runs cooler, faster, cleaner, etc. |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
Can anyone who has the unit and ideally service manual check if the SAA SACD Chip is used to oversample all PCM to a DSD Datastream and to reclock... |
Maby this is why EVERY Sony SACD player I've heard (including the SCD1, 777, 333, etc.) sound HORRIBLE to me when playing CDs.:bawling:
The bass is so loose as a mad cow:clown: :dead: and, of course, it affects everything: mids, treble, soundstage...
Sincerely, I can't figure ou why some reputed reviewers/magazines say that these Sony SACD players make a very good job when playing CDs.
Are they being payed to say so?:devily: |
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| JonScaife |
| quote: | | The 8500 board performed 20% faster than a stock 8500..and this with no VGA acceleration software in use. It just operated 20% faster |
Err, sorry, but to say I'm rather skeptical is putting it mildly.
The board was "faster" in what way exactly? Are you trying to tell me that the maximum refresh rate at a particular resolution was higher? Or that you got a higher FPS in a particular benchmark? Or something else? (in which case what?)
| quote: | | A square wave goes from DC to lightspeed, and back again |
Err, what? What does this mean? What "speed" is DC.
| quote: | | The computer runs cooler, faster, cleaner, etc. |
I'm sure my computer would love to "run cleaner" - and it would save me having to get so dusty and dirty when i go in it.
How do you expect anyone to believe anything else that you have posted when this is so clearly total fiction?
For anyone interested in the replacing of caps on a PC Motherboard I can suggest you take a look at http://www.overclockers.com/tips469/ |
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| Vinnie R. |
All,
I am toying with the idea of using a 12V, 1.3Ah SLA battery for the output stage (the same battery that is used in the Ack!dAck).
:nod:
The battery powered 12V would replace the V+12A rail, feeding the opamp IC, the Vref circuit, and it goes through a 78M05 regulator to make V+5A, which feeds the analog section of the DSD1791 DAC.
I plan to remove all multichannel dacs and opamps, which also use the V+12A rail. I am only using this machine for 2-channel.
I was thinking that I could build a small relay board that is controlled by the P_CONT signal (aka the standby/on signal that also feeds the SMPS), so when the player is turned off, the battery will be switched to charge mode. Also, if this player is turned on and not in use for a certain amount of time (maybe 20 min?), it automatically goes into standby. :)
The 12V rail also feeds the 16M Flash ROM, but I'll just use the 12V rail from the SMPS for this and only this.
I think that a battery powered 12V rail will result in the best sound for the analog output section, am I'm sure if I am only powering 2-channels, I should get 4 or more hours of playback between charges. Just like the Ack!dAck, the charging is nice and quick.
I also want to build a small relay board that will replace the muting transistor section that follows the opamp IC. This would eliminate 440 ohms (two 220 ohm resistors) from the output path, along with the transistors and and should sound better.
C245 and C246 will be replaced with BG NX caps. Do you think I can get much improvement from replacing the stock opamp IC (Rohm BA4560) with a Burr-Brown or Analog Devices instead? I have the tools to deal with surface mount chips, so it should be easy enough.
I should be getting my digikey package today, so I can start tweaking tonight :smash:
Thanks for your feedback!
Vinnie |
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| filmo |
I'm not saying that KBK is wrong, I'll just say that I would be greatly surprised if replacing any of the components on the board of a graphics card for components of the same rating (but higher quality) would make any difference whatsoever to the performance of the card. By performance I mean the score it attains in benchmark x before and after, not how stable/accurate the voltage rails are.
Bearing in mind that it is the CPU (GPU if you prefer) which is doing all the work, you can simply refer to the data sheet to find out the performance of the chip at a certain clock frequency. Unless you altered the clock frequency of the chip, this performance would not change. It is as simple as that. All you have to do is provide the chip with voltages within a certain tolerance. Again, getting more and more accurate voltage rails will not make a blind bit of difference as long as you are always within the rated tolerance. This is not a hi-fi, coloration of the signal is not a factor, we are talking serious digital I/O. Of course, if you happened to change one of the components in some way which increased the clock to the chip by accident, this could account for your 20% increase :D
Oh, and for your square wave talk...what are you raving on about?! Since when does a power supply generate square waves? I think you'll find the Radeon chip will run on something like +5V / +10V DC. The only square waves you are going to see are the ones produced by the chip itself, and still these need not be overly accurate since most discrete components will not have to see a square wave, just the rising edge - the 'corners' of the square can be as ragged as you like. But, if you say that changing a few caps provided your graphics card with a special Santa Claus style flying Reindeer dose of magic voltage, thus upping your performance, who am I to say you might be a little wrong? ;)
Mike. |
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| Vinnie R. |
Concerning the replies to KBK's CPU statements, would it be okay if you guys start a new thread on that? Not to be rude in any way, but I really want to keep this thread focused on modding the 563A.
Thanks,
Vinnie |
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| SimontY |
| I sort of started that, I apologise. Indeed, someone could start a new thread, in the category 'everything else' perhaps. I am enjoying reading about progress on modding the 563A :) I intend to buy a player like this at some point (for its SACD part), and it's good to know people are tucking into the task of making it sound good :D |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
| quote: | Originally posted by Rotellian
Ive seen you talk about C37 for quite a long time now in various places (starting with the treatment of fullrange drivers i beleive) Where can you get the stuff from in the uk?
|
http://www.c37.net/
Sayonara |
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| Rotellian |
| Wow, at those prices it had better be good. Guess i was kinda hoping he'd have a small tester bottle for a little less! Thanks anyway. |
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| SimontY |
| Those prices are ridiculous. If someone knows of a similar lacquer, a realistic alternative, please do tell. ;) |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
Those prices are ridiculous. If someone knows of a similar lacquer, a realistic alternative, please do tell. ;) |
There is no real alternative. There are some natural resin based lacquers that do SOME of the things C37 does but not as well and in the cases of some key areas not at all.
I'm not going to debate the price, that's what it costs. Compared to a pair of Fancy Interconnects the lacquer is cheap and will make a much larger and more positive impact on your system.
Of course, a true DIY'er does not use ready mixed lacquer but experiemnts with ground up bones and violin lacquer untill he has something that suits his taste, has several bad burns from mixing Violin Lacquer and spend at least the same amount on supplies a simple bottle of the ready stuff would have cost. But that is part of fun I'm being told.
For a perspective on C37, try my review....
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazi.../freakazoid.htm
You need to scroll down a little.
Sayonara |
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| KBK |
OK. we've been asked to take it elsewhere. The rebuttal: Cooler, faster, etc. Hmmm.. A signal is only as fast as it's power supply. As for the board being faster, there was great variation in the Radeon boards of the time, some where faster than others in overall frame rate capacity/ability. This one, with the new caps (it was never benched beforehand, lets be truthful here) measured notably faster than any other 8500 that particular store had seen. About 20% was their estimate. They believed, they saw it, and they had experience with the card. Something about "Mad Onions" as far as the benching test software name went.
I keep trying to say more, but all it will do is cause a ruckus. I have to keep editing this post! :(
Ok. I will say this though: So you use a OS-Con in a clocking circuit.
Why? I mean, really.....why?
As for the rest of it....I'm just going to let it sit, as it is probably only going to get ugly. How about you guys? :)
"Blessed are the cheesemakers...."-Life of Brian. |
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| SimontY |
Hello,
Kuei
Thanks for the insight WRT to the C37. I enjoyed reading your review. I hope it doesn't really have crushed up bones in it!! :cannotbe:
KBK
Thanks for clearing that up. :)
"Mad Onions" - that'll be Futuremark/Mad Onion 3DMark. http://www.futuremark.com/
On topic again...
Has anyone had a listen to or a look inside the replacement Pioneer model, as it looks like this one has been discontinued? (apologies for not remembering the new model no.!) |
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| JonScaife |
KBK
Thank you for your honest reply. The be all and end all is that there were no controlled test conditions, and so the 20% difference was obviously due to a change of some other factor ie. driver version, OS, directX version, different CPU, etc. I only queried the claim when it appeared that you were claiming a 20% improvement from changing caps, which clearly you aren't claiming because you don't have enough information. I would advise anyone reading the thread that replacing any components on their motherboard or expansion cards is expensive, very difficult, will void their warranties, and will probably have no impact at all on a stable system. Removing components from old PC hardware for use in your hi-fi however, is probably quite a worthwhile task.
Enjoy those hi-fidelity sounds, and sorry for hi-jacking this thread.
Jon |
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| Vinnie R. |
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
On topic again...
Has anyone had a listen to or a look inside the replacement Pioneer model, as it looks like this one has been discontinued? (apologies for not remembering the new model no.!) |
Simon, where did you hear that the 563A has been discontinued?
This is news to me. It seems to be selling well, so why are they coming out with a new model already? :confused:
All,
I finished tweaking the power supply board and am really impressed with the improvements. I want to spend some more time listening, and then I will report back with all the things that I did to it.
My Black Gate NX Hi-Q caps came in yesterday, so I am looking forward to using them to replace the ones after the opamps (decoupling).
Has anyone else made any progress recently?
-Vinnie |
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| SimontY |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vinnie R.
Simon, where did you hear that the 563A has been discontinued?
This is news to me. It seems to be selling well, so why are they coming out with a new model already? :confused:
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My friend who wants to buy one said so, so I don't know for sure, until I ask him how *he* knows!
I searched on Google.co.uk for it, and it was missing from the shopping sites. The replacement has already had a good review, and costs more than the 563A. My friend noticed that it still sells in the US... (old stock? different marketing?) |
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| KBK |
| quote: | Originally posted by JonScaife
KBK
...and so the 20% difference was obviously due to a change of some other factor ie. driver version, OS, directX version, different CPU, etc. I only queried the claim when it appeared that you were claiming a 20% improvement from changing caps, which clearly you aren't claiming because you don't have enough information. ........ Removing components from old PC hardware for use in your hi-fi however, is probably quite a worthwhile task.
Enjoy those hi-fidelity sounds, and sorry for hi-jacking this thread.
Jon |
But the 563 was brand new, I thought? Not even a full model run?
As for coatings, etc, we design coatings over here...you know. 4800..no..now about 5000...over the past 10 years.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Jon... you are doing the same thing that you are accusing me of:
Conclusions without evidence.
I fully realise there are other factors here, as in if the PC hardware is designed and set to run only so fast, and then no more, as it is not analog. Ie, extended HF due to greater transient current delivery or lower Imp. at HF for the analog circuit.
But when you speed up digital circuits, and push them to failure, start adjusting wait states, etc... then it might be shown to be of more use.
? :) |
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| GregGC |
| quote: | Originally posted by KBK
But the 563 was brand new, I thought? Not even a full model run?
As for coatings, etc, we design coatings over here...you know. 4800..no..now about 5000...over the past 10 years.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Jon... you are doing the same thing that you are accusing me of:
Conclusions without evidence.
I fully realise there are other factors here, as in if the PC hardware is designed and set to run only so fast, and then no more, as it is not analog. Ie, extended HF due to greater transient current delivery or lower Imp. at HF for the analog circuit.
But when you speed up digital circuits, and push them to failure, start adjusting wait states, etc... then it might be shown to be of more use.
? :) |
I couldn't resist:
Today I talked to a friend of mine who works as a design/project manager at ATI. I told him about the discussion of speeding up a video card by 20% by replacing caps on the card with a better type and no overclocking. He told me to get his name, he wants to hire him as part of the design team. :D Maybe they'll achieve an easy 20% increase in speed just by doing that and get ahead of the competition in no time. |
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| JonScaife |
lol GregGC
KBK - Not only has GregGC kindly provided some very healthy evidence (which I had already assumed was the case - it doesn't take a great leap of imagination), i was in posession of ample evidence, i call it a combination of experience and common sense.
If i told you i could make your car go 20% faster by removing the radio would you believe me? Do you have any test evidence to the contrary? I doubt it. But i'm sure you'll agree that it wouldn't happen.
I'm sorry if i'm being a bit harsh, and i'm sorry for jacking the thread, but i do get very irritated when people make totally outrageous claims and don't get challenged. It seems to happen a LOT on diyaudio and i couldn't stay quiet any longer.
On the subject of the 563A - it still seems to exist in the US, but Pioneer Europe doesn't list it. they have a 565A instead. I can't find a single online retailer selling the 563A in the UK. Did Pioneer EVER sell the 563A in Europe?
Vinnie & KBK being in North America can probably still get it, but I'd guess its not available over here.
Good luck modding it guys |
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| KBK |
| All we can say though, is that it did it's intended job, of cleaning up the PS on the board concerning the RGB amps. If I had a block diagram of the card I might have been able to get to what I needed with less work, but I just repalced everything since I had the caps lying about. Lotsa work... Best looking VGA out I've seen, by a long shot. Just for DVD on a PC. Who cares about games.... :) OK. thanks for chiming in. As I said, there was a noted variance in the speed of the ATI 8500's of the time, is my recollection. I also DID recieve that unit as a Beta tester, so maybe it was a hand selected rigner....? |
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| Vinnie R. |
| quote: | Originally posted by JonScaife
lol GregGC
On the subject of the 563A - it still seems to exist in the US, but Pioneer Europe doesn't list it. they have a 565A instead. I can't find a single online retailer selling the 563A in the UK. Did Pioneer EVER sell the 563A in Europe?
Vinnie & KBK being in North America can probably still get it, but I'd guess its not available over here.
Good luck modding it guys |
As far as I know, the 563A never existed in Europe. The 565A is the European version.
I know Best Buy in the US is still selling plenty of 563A's for $179.
I think www.audioadvisior.com has them too, along with lots of online stores. |
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| Vinnie R. |
All,
I am making significant progress with my 563A mods. I wrote a long post here last night, but when I tried to attach a picture, it would not take it and I lost the whole message :bawling:
Let me sum up what I have done so far:
POWER SUPPLY BOARD UPGRADES
C5 250V, 150uF Panasonic
C1 275V, 1uF Panasonic X2 rated noise filter
C301 35V, 100uF Panasonic FC
C302 35V, 100uF Panasonic FC
C251 35V, 100uF Panasonic FC
C201 16V, 470uF Panasonic FC
C202 35V, 100uF Panasonic FC
C101 16V, 680uF Panasonic FC
C601 16V, 220uF Panasonic FC
C102 16V, 470uF Panasonic FC
C501 35V, 100uF Panasonic FC
C401 50V, 47uF Panasonic FC
Added bypass cap across C302, a 50V, 0.1uF
Panasonic Polypropylene
AUDIO/DAC BOARD
C245 6.3V, 47uF Black Gate NX Hi-Q
C246 6.3V, 47uF Black Gate NX Hi-Q
C732 16V, 220uF Panasonic FC
C111 16V, 330uF Panasonic FC
C102 16V, 220uF Panasonic FC
C105 16V, 330uF Panasonic FC
C232 16V, 220uF Panasonic FC
C203 16V, 470uF Panasonic FC
C201 16V, 470uF Panasonic FC
C109 10V, 470uF Panasonic FC
C116 10V, 470uF Panasonic FC
C805 16V, 330uF Panasonic FC
C771 16V, 220uF Panasonic FC
C773 16V, 330uF Panasonic FC
C730 16V, 330uF Panasonic FC
C707 16V, 330uF Panasonic FC
--Removed JA801 (optical digital out)
--Replace stereo opamp IC204 (BA4560F)
with Burr Brown OPA2604
--Removed IC302 (surround sound opamp)
--Removed IC402 (surround sound opamp)
--Removed IC301 (surround sound dac)
--Removed IC401 (surround sound dac)
--Added dampening sheets to the inside of the top cover
So, how does it sound so far?
VERY VERY VERY GOOD!!! :smash: :cool: :note: :note: :note:
All aspects of the sound have been improved, and in some areas,
significantly improved (such as bass tightness and control, treble air, smoothness, and detail, midrange purity).
Before doing a more in depth review, I am hoping to finish the rest of my tweaking this weekend:
Replace the output muting transistor circuit with high-quality COTO reed-relays. This will remove two resistors from the output signal path (440ohms total) and should improve the sound quite a bit, increasing dynamics and PRAT (I hope) ;)
Install a 12V, 1.3Ah SLA battery to replace the V+12A rail that powers the opamp in the output stage, and also powers a 5V regulator that feeds the DAC. In fact, I plan to completely isolate the analog circuitry (which will be powered by the battery) from the rest of the player. Another Coto SPDT reed-relay will be used that will turn on the battery power when the player turns on, and will switch the battery to charge mode when the player is put into standby/off mode. To the user (me), everything will work exactly the same way, only the sound should be taken to another level (black black background -- think Ack!dAck here).
Well, I have a lot of work to do this weekend. If all goes well, these mods will be done by Sunday night :xfingers:
These mods have taken a lot of time, but the payback is well worth it!
I'll report more in a few days...
Vinnie |
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| KBK |
Well vinne.. you're crazier than I am! :D But I might be willing to go a bit further than that, as nobody beats me at my own game. :cannotbe:
As for the manual.. you tried contactimg me and now I have to search through my emails... and look in my 'way back' machine. My problem ibecomes something I have never had issue with before: time! I don't have the time to do these things these days, and I can't stand stock gear, no matter what the price range. so I might buy a expensive piece of gear..but end up moddding it anyway. The latest is a $10K DLP projector. One week old..and already under the knife. shame about the warranty..... |
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| Vinnie R. |
| quote: | Originally posted by KBK
Well vinne.. you're crazier than I am! :D
so I might buy a expensive piece of gear..but end up moddding it anyway. The latest is a $10K DLP projector. One week old..and already under the knife. shame about the warranty..... |
Now who is the crazy one :D |
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| net-david |
Has anyone added an i2s output to their 563A?
--David |
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| larry moore |
| So, Vinnie, did you do these mods in stages? And if so, what impact did the opamp change make by itself? |
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| Nic.M |
Vinnie
Thanks for the schematics.
I've ordered the parts to redo the psu and dac boards as you outlined in your post.
I don,t have much-any experience with handling sm devices,
nor am I familiar with the wiring connectors used on the Pioneer unit.
So, can you describe how you got the op amps and the transistors out - special tools, fluxes, etc.?
And how did you undo the wiring harnesses? Dammed if I can figure the flex foil ones out!
Hey I can't even figure out how to add smileys.
Shows the level of my questions.
Anyway, if you think others will benefit, please give us a few tips. |
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| KBK |
| You think that's bad? Yesterday.. I literally dropped a $20k SXGA DLP projector. It was brand new, with 13 hrs on it. It spun in the air..did a 360, bounced off ANOTHER piece of demo (both loaners! ieeee! signed for and brand new..ieeeee!! :bigeyes: )equipment...hit the edge of the table, and then spun again, and then bounced off the dog food bowl on the floor..hit the dog's water bowl..and got soaked. But just wet on the outside...thankfully. This..ten minutes before the demo I was scheduled to do with it. I was heading out the door just a bit too fast.... To say that I nearly had a heart attack when it happened.. would be an understatement. :bigeyes: :bigeyes: :bawling: :dead: |
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| Vinnie R. |
All,
I'm sorry to be a little sluggish with posting updates. I've been working late and have been busy with doing home improvements to our new condo.
I plan to write an update post tomorrow of what I've done so far, and will answer Nic.M's questions.
Back to plumbing :smash:
-Vinnie |
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| machinow |
| quote: | Originally posted by KBK
One week old..and already under the knife. shame about the warranty..... |
I LIKE THIS - VERY WELL SAID
:smash:
Go on, KBK |
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| aixer |
Is the normal stereo out thats is next to the component
output, the same as the font left/right out? Because sound is
coming out of the stereo out and the 5.1 left/right out put.
The reason I ask is that I see 3 opamps 2 on the top side and one on the buttom side. now 2 on the top are for the cnt/sub,
and surR/surL, and the one on the buttom is for the left/right =
5.1, great now where is the opamp on the standard left/right.
if I do basic trace C245 C246 lead to the 5.1 front left/right
output.
and one more thing, what happen if I use a higher cap like 470@16v or 1000uF@6.3 for C245&246
instead of 47uF@16v
thxs
kong |
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| Vinnie R. |
All,
Here is an updated list of mods. I changed some caps values on the audio/dac board from my previous list:
Power Supply Mods
Location New Value New Type
C5 250V, 150uF Panasonic
C1 275V, 1uF X2 Panasonic
C301 35V, 100uF Panasonic FC
C302 35V, 100uF Panasonic FC
C251 35V, 100uF Panasonic FC
C201 16V, 470uF Panasonic FC
C202 35V, 100uF Panasonic FC
C101 16V, 680uF Panasonic FC
C601 16V, 220uF Panasonic FC
C102 16V, 470uF Panasonic FC
C501 35V, 100uF Panasonic FC
C401 50V, 47uF Panasonic FC
C302 bypass 50V, 0.1uF Panasonic Polypropylene
Audio/DAC board
C245 6.3V, 47uF Black Gate NX Hi-Q
C246 6.3V, 47uF Black Gate NX Hi-Q
C804 6.3V, 47uF Black Gate NX Hi-Q
C732 16V, 680uF Panasonic FC
C111 16V, 680uF Panasonic FC
C102 16V, 680uF Panasonic FC
C105 16V, 470uF Panasonic FC
C232 16V, 220uF Panasonic FC
C203 16V, 470uF Panasonic FC
C201 10V, 470uF Panasonic FC
C109 10V, 470uF Panasonic FC
C116 10V, 470uF Panasonic FC
C805 16V, 330uF Panasonic FC
C771 16V, 220uF Panasonic FC
C773 16V, 330uF Panasonic FC
C730 16V, 330uF Panasonic FC
C707 16V, 330uF Panasonic FC
C774 16V, 330uF Panasonic FC
IC204 OPA2604 Burr-Brown
--> ALL multichannel dacs, opamps, caps, resistors, etc have
been COMPLETELY removed from the board. There are only 2-channel parts remaining!
--> Removed optical out
--> New sterero RCA jacks and digital out jack (cardas)
--> S-video jack remains, buy ALL other jacks are removed and
the holes have been plugged
--> The V+12A line to the audio out board now comes directly from the power supply board to the input of IC101 (5V regulator).
I cut the V+12A etch on the PCB at CN601 and hard wired a new line from the power supply board to IC101. The path is much shorter now.
I did not get around to doing the muting transistor swap with reed-relays, yet ;)
As for the SLA battery, well, it really doesn't fit like I thought it would :mad:
What stinks is that there is continuity between the GND and GNDA (even when I completely removed the board from the player). My guess is that they meet up inside IC201. To make the battery tweak really worthwhile, I really was hoping that they were completely isolated so any gnd noise would not impose on the pristene battery ground. Anyway, I did temporarily connect the battery outside the player and connected it with a relay that was controlled by the SW+12V line. The original reed-relay idea didn't work out because it couldn't handle the in-rush current associated with charging all the caps on the V+12A line (thus quickly arc welding shut) so I tried a heavier duty 10A relay plus diode supression and it worked very well. However, I did not feel that there was a signifcant change in the sound quality as a result of using the SLA, and being that it does not fit inside the unit, I abandoned the idea. What I can do is build a regulated 12V using a toroid, schottky diodes, a clean 12V regulator, etc.
I'm not sure if there will be significant improvement though.
Like I mentioned, I've been so tied up with other stuff lately and haven't had a lot of time to evaluate the sound enough to write a detailed review. I am hoping that I will get all of tonight to listen and enjoy it without being distracted. I would say that by the end of the week, I will become pretty familiar with the sound and will be able to post a review.
Now, as far as Nic.M's post regarding removing the stock
op-amp(s), YOU NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL doing this :att'n: All I used was solder wick and a pair of tweezers, but I have a fair amount of experience with surface mount soldering and desoldering. If you are new to this, then I highly recommend that you find some junk boards that have surface mount chips and you practice removing many of them. You have to learn how to do it without lifting those delicate pads, and without overheating things and causing damage. :hot:
The same goes for installing the new surface mount op-amp(s). This is delicate work and you should practice if you are not familiar with surface mount work. I am no pro at it, but I've done it enough times to feel confident working with the lead-pitch of those opamps. As far as removing the multichannel dacs, this is even harder as the lead-pitch is very fine. Again, I used solder wick and tweezers, but it was very delicate work. All the other multichannel parts like caps, resistors, muting transistors, etc were all easily removed with solder wick. It took some time, but now I have a clean STEREO-ONLY board that has more room for other potential goodies :D
As far as Aixer's post about the stereo outputs and the multichannel front outputs, they come from the same opamp (IC204) and share the same output decoupling caps (C245 and C246). They just have their own muting transistors and output RCA jacks, but their output circuits are the same (same components). I don't know why you would want use a larger cap for C245 and C246. You want a cap that is good for being in series with the audio signal. Using a big power supply cap here will probably do harm to the sound, maybe making the bass sloppy and smearing the treble, imaging, etc. You can try it and let us know, but I won't go that route.
That's all for now. I have to start re-evaluating the sound and figure out where I will go from here. I also want to try this player as a transport with my dAck to hear if the digital output has improved as a result of installing the black gate at C804, installing the new output jack, and all the power supply improvements. Should be fun :cool:
Regards,
Vinnie |
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| aixer |
Ok, the reason for the large caps is to give the bass more juice
so to say. But I think I will leave it at 47uF, all systems seem to use 47uF for that stage.
Can some do a test with the 2 set of output PLEASE, to me the sound
from the stereo out, does not sound the same as the front 5.1,
am I just going crazy!! what did the PS mod just like Vinnie with pan FC caps, and I use AD8620AR for the op amps instead of 0pa2604.
Have any one tried the both? what the sound like.
with the AD8620AR the sound good i guess I can't really describe it b/c
I did the mod with out even listening to the 4560 :(, I got so excited
that I mod it out of the box LOL. I sould have powered it up and made sure it work first hehe... so I could return it if it is DOA.
My system: dv-563a > PPA (opa627ap) > hd-600 stock cable
The wierd thing is the the regular CD sounds better on my old
panasonic A320 dvd player? well I went into this thinking that the
sound sould be better on the dv-563a
thxs
kong |
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| GregGC |
| quote: | Originally posted by aixer
Ok, the reason for the large caps is to give the bass more juice
so to say. But I think I will leave it at 47uF, all systems seem to use 47uF for that stage.
Can some do a test with the 2 set of output PLEASE, to me the sound
from the stereo out, does not sound the same as the front 5.1,
am I just going crazy!! what did the PS mod just like Vinnie with pan FC caps, and I use AD8620AR for the op amps instead of 0pa2604.
Have any one tried the both? what the sound like.
with the AD8620AR the sound good i guess I can't really describe it b/c
I did the mod with out even listening to the 4560 :(, I got so excited
that I mod it out of the box LOL. I sould have powered it up and made sure it work first hehe... so I could return it if it is DOA.
My system: dv-563a > PPA (opa627ap) > hd-600 stock cable
The wierd thing is the the regular CD sounds better on my old
panasonic A320 dvd player? well I went into this thinking that the
sound sould be better on the dv-563a
thxs
kong |
First you have to specify what "better sound" means to you. Ones you know that you can go ahead and make the player sound that way. |
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| Fritz |
Does anyone have a soft copy of teh service manual available?
Fritz |
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| Nic.M |
This thread seems to have gone dormant for the last little while.
I hope someone is awake and can help.
I have decided to add a separate linear psu, dac chip and new output stage to the existing equipment, rather than hack up what's already there.
As someone noticed earlier, the requisite lines for the dac are all accessible from the top of the board.
My question regards whether to buffer the lines to the new dac.
If so, how would be the best way and what parts would be optimal?
Regards,
Nic |
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| net-david |
Nic,
I have similar plans, but I was going to leave the dac in place and pick up its outputs to an analog stage. Probably use the one in the BB spec sheet.
What dac chip are you planning to use?
--David |
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| Nic.M |
Hi David
Since the DSD1791 was about $8 from Digi-Key I decided to stay with it. I had a Soic to dual in line adaptor, so I thought it would be easier to build a new board with +5 and +3 subregulators for the dac and +/- 12 volts for the output stage that will be using an opa 2604 in complementary hookup, just like the one in the Burr Brown dsd1791 data sheet.
I have already got the linear psu made, using dual primary and dual secondary transformers (2) so I could use independent rectification of each secondary. This yields +8/+8 regulated with Lt 317s and +/- 15 regulated with 78xx and 79xx fixed regulators.
The board is made to fit the space in front of the switching psu. It's done and works. The dac and output board will float on a bracket next to the present outputs suspended from a bracket on the backplate. I already have this started with dual Sulzer subregulators for the +/- 12 and Lt 317 for +5 and +3 for the dac.
No output coupling caps, muting relays and new RCAs.
Buffering the lines to the dac chip is still an issue. Should I and how and with what.
N. |
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| net-david |
Nic,
Buffering the digital lines or not is beyond my scope of knowledge. From what I've read, digital lines can sometimes be part science and part black art. I would agree that redoing the dac and analog section would be an improvement, but my guess (hope?) is that the analog section would make the biggest difference. My plan is to remove R231, R234, R238, and R242 and pick up the audio signals there.
Since you are sticking with the same dac, why not just keep the existing one on board and use your improved power supply to feed it?
I would like to see some pictures of your power supply. It sounds very similar to my plan.
--David |
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| KBK |
| I registered on the TI website, using my company address. I then asked for a bunch of free samples. A few OP-627-37, some single supply op series high end amp units and a few 1793s for good measure. |
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| Nic.M |
David,
In reply to your question regarding the decision to use the same dac chip on a new board, here are some reasons:
-flexibility-- I might want to double up on the dacs and run them in mono in the future as on pg 31 in BB spec sheet. It would also make it easier to change to a completely new dac if nature tempts me.
- space-- the new board had to be built for the subregulators anyway and this would give me the chance to experiment with the grounding scheme, decoupling ps pins with fancy caps, etc.
- short run from the dac to the output section. See caution in BB specs regarding this.
- ability to run the output of the dac without a reference voltage(hopefully) and with output op amps using complementary inputs with a true +/- supply obviating offset.
The pictures I'll post as soon as I can get the forum to accept them. I've tried already. No go.
Nic. |
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| Nic.M |
David,
Here is the picture of the transformer and initial regulation board
I hope it posts |
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| Nic.M |
David
Here is the second picture of the unfinished dac output regulator board. This has +\-12 volt Sulzer supplies and +3 and +5 for the dac |
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| KBK |
I need some regulator boards for my Behringer 2496 six channel ouptut buffer box. I'm going to use my brand new 'mod squad line drive' I've been hauling around, NIB for the past 8 years. I picked up some OPA 637's and some 2604's and some 2132's etc... but I need the regulators!!!
Sticking ot the thread in hand here, I need to know which DSD chip is the better, I belive they have identical pin outs. Is it the 1791 or the 1793. I have a few (5) of the 1793's and want to know if it is worth the swap effort... |
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| net-david |
Nic,
Looks nice. I agree with your reasons for replacing the dac, but since I'm lazy, I'm just going to do the power supply and analog output. I plan to blatantly copy the spec sheet reference design, but throw a BUF634 at the output.
I need to check with Victoria Magnetics about getting a transformer wound for the power supply. I should just need +-15 for the analog and +5 for the dac analog.
Keep us updated on your progress, I just got the other popular machine for mods, the Philips 963SA.
David |
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| Nic.M |
Hello David,
Just thanks for your thoughts. As a matter of fact, while building up the output board, I too have decided to use buffers (LT1010 in my case which I already have). In addition, I will use opa604 single op amps, rather than the dual 2604. I have always found that the single chips offer better results, so why not use them in a new project? In addition, the singles have offset compensation trim pins (1 and 5) that can compensate for ~50mv. This feature could be potentially useful.
As for KBK question about regulator boards, we need more specifics to make suggestions. What type of regulators?
3 pin fixed, 3 pin variable, discrete regulators, single voltages, dual?
I took a quick look at the specs for the dsd1791 and 93 on the TI web site. Although the dacs look pin compatible, some of the pins seem to have different functions, 6 and 28 for example. I don't know enough about this stuff to advise any further. It must be nice to have so many interesting chips to play with.
Bye for now, Nic. |
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| Nic.M |
Hi all
-after replacing the caps on the power supply and the analog board with Panasonic FC a la Vinnie, I did some listening and noticed much better control of sibilance on female voices in particular(Diana Krall -when I look into your eyes sacd, Patricia Barber cafe blue SACD). More depth, better harmonics all round, etc.
- then I replaced the stock output op amp to opa2604. Muuuch better still. More of the same, but cleaner highs and noticeably better bass control. This change is really worth the effort.
- then I replaced the 47uf output caps with Black Gates 47uf NX when they arrived. This also improved the smoothness, particulary in the highs!
-then I removed the Black Gates and rigged up a pair of 4.7uf Rifa polypropylene caps. I also removed r241 and r236, changed them to 220K 1/8 w metal film resistors to keep the time constant the same. WOW! This really put the icing on the cake.
- must stop now. I going back to enjouy more music.
Nic. |
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| BritishSpy |
Hi, I'm new to this forum.
I think your (all) contributions are very interesting. Very nice forum indeed.
Well, I also bought the 565A and changed all caps to Elna/Panasonic, some of them bypassed. The output caps were changed to Solen 630V/10mF, bypassed with 0.01 Jensen paper in oil for smoothing the Solen with their only fault: A slightly nervous top. I also replaced the rectifiers (23ns ultrafast 600V 25A).
Next step:
1. Tube output stage with tube/choke PSU (2xEL34 & 2xECC81).
2. Complete removal of the case. The new case will be out of 10mm aluminium on all sides (15kg).
3. Decoupling of the drive, this is extreme important!
4. Complete new PSU for the DAC with a capsulated torodial transformer.
5. Cardas RCA sockets.
6. Rewiring of all PSU, digital & signal lines with 99,99% pure silver
wire.
7. Extensive mains filtering.
8. Ceramic feets for the case.
9. Switch for turning off the display.
10. Pure silver mains cable with ferrite clamps.
Salute |
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| BritishSpy |
After intensive listening tests I found out that the major problem with the Pioneer is the treble, it is not very clean, somewhta smeared. But after a look into the PSU the source of this problem seems clear, no transformer means normally smeared highs.
The 565A managed to beat a Sony CD Player from the QS range with chip and tube outputs! The Pioneer offered much more space and detail, the timbres of natural instruments seemed more natural with more textures and managed a wonderful body and bass to the music. The heavily modified Sony will be kicked out now, the 565A offers much more capacity for further tweaking. |
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| blank527 |
Hi,
Here is my modified pioneer dv-747a.
Secondary tranny.. 1x6 V supplies the analog powersupply of the dac.
And +/- 12V for the sacd-enhancer from ultranalog for surround. (not connected)
And currently building the CD-enhancer II for the front output. |
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| blank527 |
| Tranny above the DSD-chip. |
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| blank527 |
Schottky diodes.. upgraded power supply.
Etc.
Thank you,
Remco Blankesteijn. |
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| Nic.M |
Hi all,
Just to keep everyone who is interested up to date, I finally finished my planned changes to the player last night.
Here is a review of what I have done.
-Upgraded electrolytic caps on the audio, and psu boards as described in my former messages to this thread.
-Removed the output the stereo op amp and replaced it with an opa 2640, removed the ouput 47uf capacitors and 22k resistors to ground, and replaced with 4.7uf Rifa polyprop and 220k resistors.
-Piggy backed more Panasonic caps on the digital board, each one straddling the stock one, leads dressed with sleeving. This was tricky but it made a lot of difference to the smoothness of the musical presentation
-made and inserted a new linear psu +5v, +3v double regulated from 2 8v regulators from a dual primary-dual secondary xfrmr, 2 diode bridges, etc. Removed the stock +5v regulator, cut 3 volt trace near cn601 to insert new psu.
- used another transformer to make +/- 15 volt regulated with 3 terminal regulators. Reregulated these with Sulzer regulators to +/- 12 volts. These were used for a completely new output stage
description to follow.
Nic. |
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| Nic.M |
The new output board holds in addition to the 12 v regulators, another opa2604 op amp on a socket (for future experiments?)
This output stage has a balanced input as described in the DSD1791 spec sheets(p30) and their specified filter. I simulated this in SWcad and it wo | | | |
