| Magnetmaz |
If you had $1500, and were looking for a good used turntable, what brands and models would you go after? I realize Linn Sondek ( though i hear it somewhat colors the sound ), Gyro, Oracle Delphi (?)
advice? good / bad experiences ?
-Maz |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
As I prefer unsuspended decks I recommend the Nottingham Analogue decks.
I'm not sure if they're still distributed in the U.S. but here's Tom's home address and phone number:
AUDIOCIRCUIT
There are plenty of dealers in the U.K.
At home I use the Mentor Reference and nothing ever broke down, even the belt lasts forever.
Cheers,;) |
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| Audiofanatic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetmaz
If you had $1500, and were looking for a good used turntable, what brands and models would you go after? I realize Linn Sondek ( though i hear it somewhat colors the sound ), Gyro, Oracle Delphi (?)
advice? good / bad experiences ?
-Maz |
Hi,
If I needed a new/other TT, I'd go for the Oracle Delphi III and up.
DON'T ever buy a LINN!
You can buy a DIY TT. Like the Terres!
All the best.
Audiofanatic ;) |
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| qwad |
| :D why not look for a good used technics SP10mkll from what I have read and heard all over the place it is the TT of choice by the "beeb" and a lot of broadcast installations around the world capable of outperforming a lot of high priced belt drives:whazzat: cheers;) Tomcat |
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| Magnetmaz |
well...i already have 2 Technics 1200mk2's and 1 transcriptors Saturn w/ vestigial arm + Shure V15 mk4 (or 3..cant remember)
And i really want something that looks cool. I'd be selling the transcriptors, so i want something equally cool looking like an Oracle Delphi :)
-Maz |
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| Cobra2 |
If you want something that plays well, transplant a decent arm to one SL-1200,
-use the rest of your budget to find a painting that looks cool...
(former Oracle & Technics owner)
Arne K |
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| Magnetmaz |
so i honestly won't hear a big sonic difference between a SL1200 with a different arm and an Oracle?
I personally don't mind how my SL1200 sounds as is, but i was of the understanding that the rumble on the motor is pretty audible when compared to a better made TT.
*mind blown* |
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| Cobra2 |
If you hear rumble, there must be something wrong, (probably elsewhere).
Arne K |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetmaz
so i honestly won't hear a big sonic difference between a SL1200 with a different arm and an Oracle? |
My experience is that you would hear a big difference. I've heard big Technics DD (including SP10 Mk II -- and Denons & any other number) get totally trounced by decent belt-drives of lesser quality than the Oracle...
But for $1.5k its hard not to consider a Teres & a tweaked up RB250.
dave |
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| Cobra2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetmaz
so i honestly won't hear a big sonic difference between a SL1200 with a different arm and an Oracle?
I personally don't mind how my SL1200 sounds as is, but i was of the understanding that the rumble on the motor is pretty audible when compared to a better made TT.
*mind blown* |
You will hear difference between all tt's, either DD or belt-driven, as you will hear differences on different arms.
Agree that a Teres & RB250 can be interesting.
A RB250 on the SL could also be....
Arne K
BTW, my ex SL-1210 with a Denon DL-304 trounced a friends 'Gyro/SME-IV, so much that he was embarrassed...(with some help of a good RIAA ((Jocko)). |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | But for $1.5k its hard not to consider a Teres & a tweaked up RB250. |
I'd totally agree. The arm being the weakest link here...
For the DL103 to shine I understand you need a high mass arm.
I never got good results with my efforts though.
Cheers,;) |
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| Derekva |
I'd have to agree with Frank on the Nottingham Analogue tables. I recently upgraded from a Rega Planar 3 to an NA Interspace with an Origin Live RB250 arm & Denon DL-110 cartridge for $1100. While I'm still lusting after a Denon DL-103 cartridge, it still beats the pants off of my Rega or the Sondek. While I have not used the Nottingham Interspace arm (it's a unipivot that is not quite as sophisticated as the SpaceArm), I'm quite happy with the synergy between the Interspace and the OL arm.
However, whatever you do, you should audition several decks with a selection of LPs with which you are familiar. After all, everyone has opinions, but at the end of the day, you are the person who will have to live with your choice!
Cheers!
-Derek |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
The arm being the weakest link here... |
The arm of course needs tweaking... the 250 leaving more tweak room (and more end potential) than the more commonly used RB300.
the stuff below is a good place to start.
dave |
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| polandro |
| quote: | Originally posted by Audiofanatic
DON'T ever buy a LINN!
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umm
why not?
:( |
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| sreten |
| quote: | Originally posted by polandro
umm
why not?
:( |
Because people love to hate them, me I'm ambivalent.
Overpriced, especially in the USA I imagine, but good
engineering and good sound. Overpriced upgrade kits.
In its earlier days optimised to work with Naim amplifiers
and Linn speakers. IMO the Linn speakers were poor.
Its a classic.
:) sreten. |
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| Derekva |
Planet 10:
Who makes the counterweights in that photo? Are those ones you have made or are they retail upgrades?
Thanks!
-Derek |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | the stuff below is a good place to start. |
Duh....What are those, Dave?
| quote: | Overpriced, especially in the USA I imagine, but good
engineering and good sound. |
Good engineering? Clever marketing's more like it, no?
I set up too many LP12s to be impressed....
Oh well,;) |
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| sreten |
| quote: | | Good engineering? Clever marketing's more like it, no? |
Hi Frank,
Well at least they tried to get the best out of it. I didn't say excellent.
Have to agree with you about the marketing.
But if you remember the infamous Fons CQ30 review in HFN&RR,
it shows Linn had a point to prove , turntables do sound different.
But selling an LP12 with a LVV arm ? yuk.
:) sreten. |
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| planet10 |
I've got a soft spot for Linns. They may not be the best value for the money -- particularily new at their current prices), but in their day -- just before & after the dawn of the CD there was little that would touch them. The 1st TT that came along that do so reliably was the Oracle, and then once Oracle had shown it could be done, better TTs kept coming & coming -- so many that today -- 20 some years after the "death of vinyl" there are conseratively 100s more choices of "hi-end" TTs than there was then. We had shown ourselves already before the Oracle that the Linn could be bettered, by building a powered-copper/expoxy outer platter for one that was a dramatic improvement (the Linn distrib was not happy the day he heard that -- amazingly the Linn started getting factory improvements after that)
Because so many Linns were sold locally (my 1st one was $180 & i put a $75 Grace 707 on it, the 1st of at least a dozen i've owned -- and sold -- and i sold 100s new myself), there is always good used ones around. Used Oracles from the same era seem a bit rarer (we did get the ball rolling for Oracle selling over 10% of the 1st thousand they made), but they weren't as well built so there may well be more dead in people's closets.
If i had your TT budget i'd be looking at a Teres with my own Plinth, whatever arm i could fit into the budget & one of the cheap wood-body Grados (or a better arm & a $5 Grado until i could afford the better one).
dave |
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| Praudio |
For 1500$,go with latest WTT/WTA Classic( round motor,black platter and arm(around 1100$/1300$ on Audiogon w/quality cartridge.
Next step: Terres |
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| polandro |
I loved my LP12, it had an Ittok and an Asaka and it was great. Mind you, I was working for a Linn dealer at the time and it was all trade less 10%, except for the Ittok which I got, refurbished for £120 and later sold for £275...:rolleyes:
I wasn't quite so impressed by the Ekos I replaced it with - £895 full price (better, but not that much!) - happy days.
I had to sell it - needed the money :bawling:
Looking to find something lesser to fill the yawning gap:confused: |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Sorry to burst bubbles but no Linn Dreck I ever heard ever came close to a master tape...
While some well set up samples could play a basic tune, none had the dynamic scale you can expect from a good, well designed TT.
The Linn tonearms are even worse...
Sorry to say so but Ivor Tiefenbrunn must have been the marketing example for Bill Gates.
Microcrap at macrodollars,;) |
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| Audiofanatic |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
Sorry to burst bubbles but no Linn Dreck I ever heard ever came close to a master tape...
While some well set up samples could play a basic tune, none had the dynamic scale you can expect from a good, well designed TT.
The Linn tonearms are even worse...
Sorry to say so but Ivor Tiefenbrunn must have been the marketing example for Bill Gates.
Microcrap at macrodollars,;) |
Hi Frank,
You'r talking my language!
I had one of the best LP12 ever, still my Oracle is better than the LP12 with PINK LINK PSU!
Best regards,
Audiofanatic ;) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | I had one of the best LP12 ever, still my Oracle is better than the LP12 with PINK LINK PSU! |
The Oracle isn't all that great either I'm afraid....
Suspended TT rule #1: anything that moves loses energy dixit Isaac Newton.
We don't write letters on pillows either, do we?
Ever had a chance to listen to a Decca on a NA Mentor Reference?
Or, the other end of the scale; a Jan Allaerts MC on a NA?
That's more like my language even though it not a "perfect" analogy...
Puts any CD based system to shame, I promiss.
Cheers,;) |
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| jewilson |
Frank,
I do not buy that argument that tables that are supported with a suspension cannot sound as good as those that do not. After all a car have a smooth ride because of the suspension as well as trains. If I a writing table that had a suspension strong enough there would be no problem to write on it.
:D Having said that, there are fine tables made with and without suspensions.
Also, some people live in houses with wood sub floors that do tansmitt energy, so for them a suspension is a good thing.
Cheers
:hohoho: |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | I do not buy that argument that tables that are supported with a suspension cannot sound as good as those that do not. |
Have you tried?
Granted there's more to good TT design than just this but it's a good start...
To put it simply, you want all the information from the record you can get so you want low compliance carts reading from a low compliance platform at as close to the ideal speed as possible, no?
Pardon me but it's going to be one tough cookie to fool Newton, so, when you have a suspended floorboard you just need a wall shelf to solve this, right?
With DIY you're freed from the dilemmas designers need to tackle, what if this or that....
BTW, be that a suspended TT or not it's always a good idea the have it on a shelf on the wall. Why?
Cheers,;) |
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| Cobra2 |
And to continue the analogy: the fastest cars do not have much suspension (TopFuel/Cart/...). :2c:
(-but if you want a 2CW...)
Arne K |
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| RobWells |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
BTW, be that a suspended TT or not it's always a good idea the have it on a shelf on the wall. Why?
Cheers,;) |
Hi Frank,
I've got to say that in my house (c.1850's) the walls shake from the bass, and the floor is pretty tame. - I'd planned to stick my sondek on a shelf, but if you put your hand on the wall in the next room:eek: - I'll take the floor option here please:D
Cheers
Rob |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | I've got to say that in my house (c.1850's) the walls shake from the bass, |
Lucky you.... A thatched cottage?
What's shaking most are the floorbards, not the sidewalls though.
| quote: | | the fastest cars do not have much suspension |
Good point, I run the 911s on a very short leash too....No kidding.
Cheers,;) |
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| RobWells |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
Lucky you.... A thatched cottage?
What's shaking most are the floorbards, not the sidewalls though.
Cheers,;) |
I wish it was Frank - You're in the right area but this is a farm 'lodge' so tile roof, much bodging of building..;) The floor seems to be concrete, whereas the original parts of the building are 'wattle and daub' so nope, the floor ain't moving, but the walls sure are :) Honestly put your hand to the wall adjoining my listening room :eek: Terrible - initial measurements say I have hardly any room gain...
Cheers
Rob |
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| pinkmouse |
| Well, if I had that cash to splash, it would be a Gyrodeck with my Origin Live modded RB250. I won't pick you a cartridge, 'cos in my experience they are so taste and room dependant that it is impossible to call... |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Rob, I just can't stop laughing....
Alright, it aint all that funny I presume...
So the floor's the more solid part and not shaking, I can recommend a RATA TT stand and a 100 LBS TT.
Cheers,;) |
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| RobWells |
Funniest thing Frank is that this room has given me the most satisfaction of all the places I've lived in - I've measured it and its pretty smooth except a big null at 40Hz..
I'm saving for some TT upgrades, was planning on an ittok arm and a decent cartridge. Some comments above suggest selling up and moving out..:)
Cheers
Rob |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | I'm saving for some TT upgrades, was planning on an ittok arm and a decent cartridge. |
You Britts, you know....Ittok = Tick Tock...
A better cart, yes, but which one?
| quote: | | Funniest thing Frank is that this room has given me the most satisfaction of all the places I've lived in - I've measured it and its pretty smooth except a big null at 40Hz.. |
By all means, stay! Sounds like a great house with a soul to me...(beats all the math, doesn't it?)
Next time I'm in misty land I'll bring along that magic wand and pay a visit to the Wells family....
Just kidding....;) |
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| RobWells |
""A better cart, yes, but which one?""
I'm looking at spending about £500 on the cartridge (that's a lot of overtime I'm going to have to work..) I don't know whether I'll buy new or a second hand 'very good' one - I'll decide when the money is burning a hole..
I'm in the middle of a big system shake up, so I've also got to get a decent phonostage, and better amps aswell. (plus finish my speaker project)
""Next time I'm in misty land I'll bring along that magic wand and pay a visit to the Wells family....""
You'd be welcome Frank...
Cheers
Rob |
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| Audiofanatic |
Hi Frank, Rob and others,
I have to say that Frank is right about the Oracle. The best sounding TT I've ever heard was an Orca with a Morch arm and a Shelter 901 on a Symposium board. I'll try to attach a pic of it.
That monster took me 3 days to get it running/sounding at it's best.
I now use the IKEDA arm this arm is not cheap but it's one of the best ars I had. EURO 4400,=
I'm planning in making a DIY TT like the Teres but with an aluminum base like the KUZMA!
For those who has a LINN or an Oracle, make shure it bounces only in a vertical way otherwise you'll not get the best sound it can produce!
Best regards,
Audiofanatic ;) |
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| Audiofanatic |
An otherone.
Audiofanatic ;) |
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| sreten |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetmaz
If you had $1500, and were looking for a good used turntable, what brands and models would you go after? I realize Linn Sondek ( though i hear it somewhat colors the sound ), Gyro, Oracle Delphi (?)
advice? good / bad experiences ?
-Maz |
| quote: | | And i really want something that looks cool. |
For what its worth IMO suspended turntables can make
very nice noices if set up / modded / finely tuned / tweaked
by someone who absolutely knows what they are doing -
that is not relying on dogma or blind faith.
Don't know if you ever got the Pink Triangle over there.
Seems to me the Gyro / Oracle with a Rega fits the bill.
In my experience extracting the best out of a suspended
design is very tricky. Solids are easier to set up.
Did you get the Roksan and Rock over there ?
If you fancy the solid route transplanting a modded Rega to one
of your Technics with a few other tweaks sounds good to me.
| quote: | | 2 Technics 1200mk2's and 1 transcriptors Saturn w/ vestigial arm |
The Rega will be a huge step in performance compared to these arms.
:) sreten. |
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