| Gabevee |
Hello all,
I am thinking of getting my home theater wired up for full surround sound. Being in this group I hope you are assuming that I make my own amplifiers. However, I do not have enough knowledge (though I could work from a schematic and parts list, hint hint) to make my own Dolby digital and/or DTS decoder. I would like to know if anyone here knows of a model I can purchase.
My only other alternative is to buy a system with it built in and just rip out the **** amplfiiers and run it to my amps. Although that may be a waste, as I read and see that there is a movement to Dolby 6.1. Center channel rear. Give me a break!!! But, it may be cool after all. ;)
Thanks much in advance! |
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| tiroth |
Bump. I'm also looking for a quality seperate that does DD/DTS96. DAC quality is not an issue, but cost is.
Anyone have any luck with the samplerate.com people? |
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| Gabevee |
I took a look at that site and below in fine print they say they only deal with manufacturers of systems. I am just going to buy a 5.1, DTS, etc. Receiver and make power amps. It would be cheaper that way. I can always replace the **** op amp chips with high quality ones, and since I am using tube power amps, well...
I didn't even think about the fact that I would need 5 or 6 ganged potentiometers for volume control. Yikes!
Gabe:eek: ;) |
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| MazzPotential |
Hi, Gavebee,
You're thinking my thoughts.
I've trying to compose my own dd/dts or even THX(small or EX) system.
It's not that easy to find a decent schematic of a good dd/dts decoder. Even if you can find one, it's expensive to build one that meets good standards.
I was thinking of starting with a Harman Kardon reciever , not to expensive but 96 k/bitrate at 24 bits wide pre-outs, combined with some, yet to build own power amps. And take it from there?
If got some power-amp schematics if you're interested,
Mazz. |
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| tiroth |
| Schematics are actually the easy part; the hard part is the application code. None of the surround-sound DSP chips that I am aware of are closed systems; they require an application code download at boot. |
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| Gabevee |
Thanks Mazz,
I am thinking of making four 300B tube SE amps for the five surrounds and center channel, and my p-p 15 WPC for the sub woofer. I never need more than those put out as they are now in stereo.
Otherwise, a MOSFET output p-p design I have been working on for some time.
But I wouldn't mind taking a look at your shcmeatics.
Thanks! |
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| Gabevee |
Jeepers. I must be suffering from dyslexia of the fingers!
I meant schematics, not shcmeatics. :eek:
Later! |
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| MazzPotential |
Geavebee,
If you could give a direction what kind of amplifier type you want to build. Are you looking for Tube schematics.
I've got several schematics ranging from 10 W to 100 W based on the EL34 tube, avail in three mode types : Ultralineair, Penthode and triode mode ?
If you're looking for SS schematics just give me some specs and we can discuss best maching schematics.
Mazz. |
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| blu_line |
I do not think it is worthwhile making your own DTS decoder.
Buy a good DVD player with 5.1 channel out and make a good pre- and power amp.
Probably, with good results, you could upgrade your DVD player by using other DAC's.
And if you are realy in to it, make 6 digital outputs and do the DA, pre- and power amp your self. Then you have the advantage of the decoder after all.
For those who are really not convinced, Hiteker uses a commercially available DTS decoder which could be used.
http://www.dvd-wizards.com/darrenk/ES4408.pdf
grtz
Simon |
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| promitheus |
| Making your own decoder is not the easiest thing to do for a lot of reasons. As stated above there isnīt so much information on the chips. Itīs better to buy somehting ready and use your own amps. |
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| tvi |
<b>Gabevee</b>
<i><font color="#804000">My only other alternative is to buy a system with it built in and just rip out the **** amplfiiers and run it to my amps. Although that may be a waste, as I read and see that there is a movement to Dolby 6.1. Center channel rear. Give me a break!!! But, it may be cool after all</font>"</i>
<hr width="95%" align=center>
You might want to look at the <a href="http://www.outlawaudio.com/news/news_mar_950.html">outlaw audio Model 950</a>, no amps to pull out :)
Don't know if you consider their prices cheap "<font color=#808080>Model 950 standard pricing: $ 899</font>"
<img src="http://www.outlawaudio.com/images/950-inside.jpg">
Regards
James |
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| Gabevee |
Hi,
Thanks for the info. At least there is someone who is making the decoders. But you are right. $899 is not worth it, not when I can get a complete receiver for $200. And.. I can make anything sound great.
Thanks!
Gabe |
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| Helix |
i think i can see some electrolitics on the inputs!, yuck
It says that has taken many engineers many man years to design it? slow workers methinks
it has taken me a less then month to design a 5.1 preamp and selectors for digital/analog inputs/outputs and volume control! all i need is to bolt on a DAC or a decoder if i can get one! i admit i have used quite a few relays but at least they are better then those yukky CMOS/transistor switches for audio signal paths:rolleyes: |
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| Bose(o) |
| DTS is the way to go. DTS 5.1 has more discrete channels and a higher bit rate than Dolby Digital. Now, DTS Neo 6.1 or something like that may not be needed for some rooms. My family room {current home theatre area} will not permit DTS 6.1 for, the sixth speaker is in behind. If you pick up a Denon receiver with 7.1 then, I would be fine. I have room to hang side speakers and the rears will fit nicely. I have only rented two DVDs that make use of DTS 6.1 and would wait If I were you until it is more commonly used unless, you opt. for the 7.1 receiver. I only know of the 7.1 receiver by Denon maybe Onkyo as well... |
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| jgwinner |
Interesting thread
I've got the same issues - we're going 'backwards' in our Home Theater, we got a Hitachi LCOS video projector for Christmas. Currently, I'm using my old Technics SA-500 to drive the speakers, from my Sound Blaster Live! (NOT Value) and my DVD player in my PC. (ATI 8500DV). Scream! <G>
I don't know if any 'real' 5.1 decders are available in the PC, although it does have SPDIF out; the PC environment is so noisy electrically, I really would prefer to move the digital sound out of it to a seperate decoder. The SoundBlaster Audigy looks good, but again I don't like the idea of audio leaving the PC, just digital.
I've been looking at DIY'ing some Electrostatic speakers, so I'd be looking for a solid state or tube amp to drive those, I'd want just the digital decoder and possibly pre-amp. Most home theater systems have the amps built in, which I wouldn't want to use (not sure if they would drive the electrostatics).
Eventually, I want to get a DVD player, but my PC has DVI out, and the projector has DVI in. I'm waiting until I get a DVD player that takes pure DVI in.
A bit rambling, I guess the bottom line is I'm looking for the same thing <G>. |
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| MazzPotential |
jgwinner,
There are good quality soundcards that incorparate excellent 5.1 decoding. e.g. the "DMX 6fire from Terratec" 24bit/ 96 khz res.
Bit expencive though. Europe $200.
An other solutions is to buy a good quality low power amp. e.g. a Harmon Kardon. One of it's amp's has 5 x 40W which is enough for small livingrooms, but has excellent decoding capabilities. 24bit/ 96khz Plus 6 pre-ins and 6 pre-outs. This allows you to expand the system. If your hunger for more power grows you can buy 2,3 hell even 6 seperate high-end/high power amps to connect to you HH am, and still have great decoding.:)
You're talking about building your own ESL's and which amp to buy. Well, don't worry about the amp.
First of all the ESL do not give you amp the complex loads simular to conventional electromagnetic speakers.
Second, The ESL needs a step-up transformer to meet the 3kV up to even 15 kVs to drive you ESL. So output wise (Peak Voltage) any amp will do.
Mazz. |
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| Electro |
Sound cards do put out distortion but this only when analog hook up from the CD drive is used. A/V receivers has this problem too.
My sound card (Soundblaster LIVE! 5.1 channel) doesn't put any distortion. Only the fans in my computer gives me a noisy sound environment.
I don't mind paying a little over $250 on a sound card that gives me a gold plated I/O slot and better sound for my next computer. My next computer will be using AMD's new processors (hammer series). Though I have to spray paint a gold color on the back of the computer to match the sound card.
On the outlaw audio Model 950. Anybody can desolder components and replace them with better components such as mylar or tantalum capacitors for the inputs.
Below is an interesting link that shows the distortion analysis of different converters.
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/ADA1000/index.htm |
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| Neopsp |
Hi all.
I have been looking for a standalone dolby digital and DTS decoder myself. I really think there is a market for just that. No preamp, just the decoder. Many of us have our own special preamps and amps but want the decoder as an extra. I have emailed a few companies and told them this. What do you guys think about the Sound blaster Extigy? It only has dolby though
Thanx
Neopsp |
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| Sawzall |
I have seen several systems now that are implementing more and more of the decoding in software vs. hardware. While this is mostly in the commerical sector, it is growing in the consumer market too.
These systems are often based on FPGA type chips that offer the ability to "download" the newest and greatest codec. What I propose that makers should do is this:
1. Build a system that allows the codec to be soft loaded in to the magic decoder ring built into the system. (realizing that it requires a pretty smart and fast decoder ring..)
2. Have the actual optimized codec come with the source. So if the recording is done with Supersystem 1.2, it has the "executable" part of the codec as the first track.
3. As part of playing this recording, first the player reads the codec, loads it up, then plays the music (or whatever the info is).
The good part of this is that we could get out of this hardware cycle we are all caught in. Just look at the alphabit soup of codecs, even on the consumer market - MP3, WMA, Real, Dolby in about 4 flavors, DTS in several flavors, matrix, descrete, etc. Codecs based on psychoacustics like AAC+ and PAC are just now coming and promise to get much better.
The other good thing is that this would allow the producers of the music to decide on what made their music sound the best. It would also mean that we would end up with less out of date hardware - and you could take a chance on "early adoption" since it would be less likely that we would end up with a Betamax type doorstop.
The computer world recognized they had to break this up, thus XML where the data is split from say the data definitions.
I think this would a smarter way to go.
(Or quite possibly, I have lost my mind.) |
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| tiroth |
Some manufacturers already do this. The problems I see:
- 90% of consumers won't hook their DVD player up to their computer to upgrade it, because of ignorance, apathy, or cost of the upgrade
- If adding the I/O interface adds $4 to the cost of the unit, it is probably too much for the mid-fi market to absorb. Hi-end ($$$) is different.
- Providing code updates requires work on manufacturer's parts, and could undercut sales of newer units. |
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| Electro |
Let the computer world mature. Soon computers will control the audio and visual in every home theater rooms.
Consumers still have 56 kilobit modems.
| quote: | | ...What do you guys think about the Sound blaster Extigy? It only has dolby though |
Well Extigy does provide Dolby Digital. Though few movies utilize Dolby Digital. Receivers that output 6.1 or 7.1 simulate those extra channels. Sounblaster LIVE! 5.1 to Audigy can output more than 5.1 channels (probalby to 10 channels) although Creative Labs are programming very slowly. You have to program the Soundblaster LIVE! 5.1 or Audigy yourself to get the options, (delay, channel size setup, subwoofer filter, etc) that you see on recievers. Hacking into the advance speaker button found in Surround Mixer from Creative Labs might help. |
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| tiroth |
The Extigy is an attractive option for a DIY-decoder. It definitely comes with some limitations though.
Some extigy info can be found here. |
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| jgwinner |
I may have answered my own question ...
I just downloaded PowerDVD's Audiophile pack, and it does DTS and Dolby decoding. I hooked it up to my old Stereo (Technics SA-500) and some PC speakers for the rear chanel. Although the rear speakers were pretty overwelmed, it worked pretty well, and didn't seem as noisy as I expected.
This was using the audio out from my SB Live! I just didn't expect it to be any decent from a SN perspective, given I know the kind of environment inside a PC, but then again, this isn't hi fi yet either. Obviously, if I can get 6 digital channels out of the card, or upgrade to an Audigy external, that would be better.
I'm getting a DVI cable on Monday so I can see the difference between DVI and RGB.
So I'm really leaning toward a remote boot PC setup in the living room via networking for DVD playback. I have the ATI 8500DV so I could even use that for TV / cable decoding (although we have digital cable, I'd have to use the video in).
Software vs Hardware decoding - given that I'm using PowerDVD and for some reason my hardware video acceleration was working weird with one title last night, I was doing EVERYTHING in software. I didn't notice any pauses in the DVD; this is with a 1Ghz athlon. |
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| pguidry |
I don't know if this thread is still current, but a Technics SH500 DD/DTS decoder is a good option. I used one when my old preamp didn't have either. The nice thing about it is the adjustable sub xover and night time suppression. It also does Pro-Logic.
They still go on ebay for ~180-250.
Mine sounds as good or as my Sony TA9000 preamp. |
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| jgwinner |
If I had an SH-500, that might work, but I have an SA-500; it's over 20 years old. 55w / channel stereo, no remote, no Dolby. I'm not sure Dolby was around then in a consumer setup :confused:
It's having some minor problems with the switches getting old, sometimes I loose a channel.
Yea, I know, I need a whole new amp setup. |
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| pguidry |
You can add the SH500 (it has pass through inputs for other devices).
It's basically an add on DD/DTS processor. |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by pguidry
Technics SH500 DD/DTS decoder is a good option. Mine sounds as good or as my Sony TA9000 preamp. |
I have one of these driving a mix of NAD stereo bits (3140, 2140, 7020) for my HT. I am going to can the separate HT soon and integrate it with my main hifi.
There are some proven mods for this processor that make it better yet.
dave |
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| Electro |
| quote: | | ...and for some reason my hardware video acceleration was working weird with one title last night... |
That's ATI's bad drivers and PowerDVD beta support for hardware acceleration. I have PowerDVD and I get a frozen computer on certain movie scenes when using hardware acceleration. My computer, 800 Mhz Athlon Classic, does just fine doing software decoding.
Try using LINUX although it might be hard to setup a DVD player like Xine and Dolby Digital sound. The advantage of using LINUX is that you can control a PC anywhere through any telnet like application. I'm trying to setup Xine myself but it may take another few months to get it working. I'll try to post the steps on how to setup Xine under LINUX on my web site. I have Mandrake LINUX 8.1 so the steps might work in Red Hat.
My Radeon VIVO card has RCA and S-Video outputs so I can not help you setup DVI support under LINUX. I do have Radeon VE gathering dust that has DVI output. I'll try to hack into ATI's Radeon VE drivers under Windows then convert them to LINUX. This may take a few years to write the code.
I have a Technics SA-AX7 A/V reciever. It has 6 channel (5.1 channels) output. Sounds very good with my sound card. I moslty have it set to 6 channel DVD, but the active filter is not activated in the reciever. This makes a little easier to invest in a better active filter for the subwoofer. |
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| jgwinner |
I think the video acceleration issue was a BIOS setting, I tried turning on fast writes. It works flawlessly now. Although I only saw one slight pause during software acceleration.
I think the DVI support would be automatic, assuming you have the right cable, otherwise you couldn't see the BIOS screen.
The only drawback I see so far with this setup is that if I'm playing TV or a HiFi SVHS tape, I won't get Dolby decoding on the 2 channel sound. I think I could stream it into the PC via the video card or the sound card, but then I'd need another kind of decoder, I don't think PowerDVD would take it from the audio IN.
Also, my wireless ATI remote doesn't work. It's an X10 OEM product, but it seems to be different than their regular products. I could buy a wireless mouse, but I'd rather have a 'real' remote <G>. |
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| Neopsp |
| quote: |
Originally posted by planet10
There are some proven mods for this processor that make it better yet.
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Do you have any of these mods available or can you perhaps give links if you have. I'm thinking of buying this unit. Thanx
Neopsp |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Neopsp
Do you have any of these mods available |
The following is from a post on the JoeList -- i haven't ripped mine open yet so cannot attest to the improvements. I have thou done similar mods on other gear with big improvements.
dave
"Feeling bold following my success with cap upgrades to my Pioneer
DV-333 DVD player, I have finally completed cap upgrades to my
Technics SHAC500D surround sound processor. This unit is really a
digital preamp using the Crystal Semiconductor CS4226 surround chip
with lots of features and remote volume capability.
The unit sounded good for the money, but had some slight compression
and veiling to the sound which I attributed to the mediocre electrolytic
caps that came in the processor.
This thing has a TON of caps in it unlike the Pioneer player which
only had a handful. I swapped out both power supply and audio
coupling caps using mostly my favorite Nichicon KZs and FAs along
with two pair of Black Gate NXs in the most critical places. This helped
a lot but I didn't completely let all the music out until I replaced six
300pf
ceramic caps near the output with polystyrene film caps. That finally
brought the unit up to full glory with all the top end air and detail that
I suspected it was capable of.
Now those Silverline classical surround discs sound better than ever
through my 4.5 watts total of 4 channel SE DHT room-filling thunder.
Utterly incredible....
- Ralph" |
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| tiroth |
I use an SH-AC300 in my test bench. I highly suspect the 300 and 500 are virtually identical in construction.
You can see some info here...the residual THD and noise are basically measurements on the DAC, as my output device and ADC are better than the DAC.
I think it sounds pretty good. You might consider grabbing the analog directly from the decoder daughtercard...it has a long and windy path through the motherboard. Upgrading (or simply replacing) the signal path components should certainly help. As far as the power supply goes it actually looks like someone was paying attention when they designed it. |
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| Electro |
| quote: | | The only drawback I see so far with this setup is that if I'm playing TV or a HiFi SVHS tape, I won't get Dolby decoding on the 2 channel sound. I think I could stream it into the PC via the video card or the sound card, but then I'd need another kind of decoder, I don't think PowerDVD would take it from the audio IN. |
I get dolby surround sound with my sound card when connected to a stereo VCR. I had to enable AC-3 and 5.1 speaker setup on my sound card. However I'm using RCA (phono) cables from the VCR. I constructed my own cables because I can not find shielded cables that has 1/8 inch stereo plug to two phono plugs. |
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| jgwinner |
Electro:
Which sound card do you have?
I hear you on the cables, I spent a few days last week looking for a 'decent' phono plug and couldn't find anything. |
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| Electro |
| quote: | | Which sound card do you have? |
Soundblaster LIVE! MP3+ 5.1 channel
The X-gamer or Platium series have gold plated connectors.
| quote: | | ...I spent a few days last week looking for a 'decent' phono plug and couldn't find anything. |
Any electronic store has phono plugs. I suggest you get gold plated. I didn't use gold plated plugs for my cables. I use double shielded four conductor 30 feet cable from Radio Shack. Each of the three cables that I cut are about 6 feet in length. My phono and stereo plugs are all from Radio Shack too. This is only for the 5.1 channels. For the four cable that goes from my VCR to the sound card line-in is a non-shielded stereo to phono cable from Radio Shack.
I can not find a 1/8 inch plug that is four pole. Creative Labs might know where to get one.
If you look on my site under the link section. You will find some electronic stores. Jameco Electronics and Parts Express has phono and stereo plugs. |
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