| matjans |
hello all,
I've been looking for a place to show off my newest gainclone :D. Couldn't really find any ongoing threads for it so I thought I'd start a new one. Well, here it is.
A blatant rip-off of a Peter Daniel "Patek" clone (hmm, a rip-off of a clone ;)).
Anyway, I finally understand what all the fuss about those clones is about; it sounds surprisingly good. After having built a couple of amps for testing purposes I came up with this one. Or actually, I agreed on the opinion of many other people that the following specs are pretty good.
2x Rubycon BG 1000uF 50V
1x rubycon BG 4.7uF bipolar input cap
Riken Ohm for setting gain: 22K/1K
-> I've just ordered some 22K Caddocks
Standard carbon 1W for the rest.
It's been playing for about 8 hours now and already it outperforms my previous GC's.
A few pic's.
(mods: if you guys think this shouldn't be a separate thread move it somewhere else !) |
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| matjans |
| The interior: a copper bar (heatsink) and some silver-plated copper wire. Haven't isolated the case yet but there's absolutely NO rf noise. No humming either, it's just dead quiet. |
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| Peter Daniel |
I see, in some ways, you even improved on the original Patek concept. Well done. ;)
From all resistors I tried, Caddocks seem to be the best for feedback loop. |
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| matjans |
thank you peter. :)
(what ways are you referring to btw?)
well, with this amp being my standard amp for the time being i'm looking for an active pre. Does anyone have any ideas what goes well with a GC? I'm actually looking for a simple tube preamp... No phono stage needed (as i won't be using any vinyl)
sorry analogue fans but those things are way out of my budget for now... |
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| Nuuk |
Hi Matjans, nice little GC there!
As regards a 'simple valve preamp' THIS is what I built earlier this year based on suggestions to a similar request.
I'm still working on it (mainly hum issue now, I may have to go to DC for the heaters) but it does sound good!) BTW - I used the Stephen Robinson circuit. |
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| ronc |
Good job!
All mine look like black boxes?
Have you tried battery P/S? Try it , the results will surprise you.
ron |
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| matjans |
thanks nuuk, i was thinking about something like this . most of the site is in dutch though so here's another link (schematics) .
Triodedick has a *lot* of tube amps on his site -hence the name- (some stories are in english) including some very nice 300B's (and a 211 whoo!!).
ron: haven't tried it yet, maybe i'll rip the battery out of my car (and my dad's car.... and my mom's car...) |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by matjans
(what ways are you referring to btw?)
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Nicer wood panels and more pleasing proportions;)
I see you still use regular bridges. Try MUR 860.
Also, the footing on the amp is quite critical. Try to use one foot on each site, and then a spike (at one point only) under the central copper bar. |
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| matjans |
hi peter.
in my previous amps I used onsemi mur840's and mbr840's. Can't really decide which i like best. the regular bridged sound a little soft (which is nice), the mur840's sound a little harsh (which is nice when playing rock music) and the mbr840s sound somewhere in between the previous two. Which is nice aswell.
dilemma ;)
I don' really know what's going on btw but sound sound quality is varying with the hour. Bass was sloppy all of a sudden and now it's tight as hell. blackgates burning in ?? |
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| Peter Daniel |
| Yes, BG need to be broken in. I don't switch off my amps at all. |
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| Upupa Epops |
| To Peter Daniel : Which type ? Caddock have many types and also others manufacturers have similar. P. S. : If you hear differenes between rectifiers in PS, your amp is not OK ( rails and ground lines ) :whazzat: . |
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| Peter Daniel |
I only tried MK132 as it's most popular and right sized (for feedback loop) Caddock resistor.
If the amp's not OK, it's not rails and ground lines fault, but National's design team :nod: |
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| Upupa Epops |
| To Peter : I am assuming, that National team don't drive your brain and hands by making your own PCB:cool: , isn't true ? |
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| Peter Daniel |
Who mentioned PCBs?
I don't remember when was a last time I used a PCB in an amp. |
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| Upupa Epops |
| Was you born in year 1910 ? When I look on your photo, I mean that you are younger :xeye: . Also without PCB your wiring is not OK :whazzat: . Imagine : NASA makes "high tech " product such as Space Schuttle and brag about that is made only with solderind iron :clown: . |
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| Peter Daniel |
Well, this amp is not a space shuttle and since only 3 parts are required, it would be extremally stupid to use PCB.
I bet you can't do this type of assembly with a PCB: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...2733&highlight=
And 2 dimentional plane here would actually introduce more complications than improvement. Are you gonna argue that wiring is not OK here as well? Because I don't see any wiring. |
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| Upupa Epops |
| Minimal count of devices around typical integrated power amp is approximately eight, not three. Pics which you show me, I take as good for prototype, not as like final work - if is it enought good for you, my professional honesty say no. In this case we are probably quite different - I mean, that DIY may be made the same as the best profi product and man should not to say "..it play, let it be..." . |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Upupa Epops
my professional honesty say no |
..and let's end it up this way.
PS: For you it may be just professionlism and good looks that count, for me it's a bit more than just that. Check my signature, to see what I mean;) |
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| matjans |
| so what;s up with threadjacking these days anyway? mods: be more strict ?? |
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| Peter Daniel |
I don't look at this as threadjacking, as it was still on a subject of GC, p2p wiring and quality as such.
Besides, it created more exposure for your clone;) |
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| ronc |
IMHO to achieve the shortest signal path length on the LM3875 P2P wiring is a must. Besides the circuit is so simple why go to the trouble of a board.
ron
Quote from my old ME prof "the hardest thing you can do is to make something simple" |
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| tonywong |
Hi everyone,
I have just completed a Patek G.C. casing. This is how it looks like from the BACK.
I'm trying to complete the whole amp by end of next week.
regards,
Tony Wong :D |
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| tonywong |
| Here's how it looks like from the front... |
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| Peter Daniel |
Now, that is one serious Patek;)
It is much easier to built than a conventional GainCard chassis and I think it has a chance to sound better. Here how I integrated a temporary volume pot with the amp. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...=&postid=272585
The amp doesn't really allow for one pot inside and I don't want to use two separate pots.
Maybe a Patek Gallery should be in order? |
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| Variac |
Make sure to use one bolt and a nut and a non threaded hole all the way through the bar to clamp the chips. that way they are clamped with equal force ;)
I think Tony might have equaled you on this one Peter!!!
:cool: :att'n: :att'n: :att'n: :cool: :cool: |
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| Peter Daniel |
It's not recommended to use the same screw for mounting the chips. First of all, they are not mounted the same, but positioned in such way that outputs on both channels are closer to back panel and pins are at the same height . A copper bar is used to hold the chip (so 2 holes are needed). I'm using cordless screwdriver so torque is the same (lowest value).
You are right that he might equal me on that one (although he didn't use premium materials: copper and bronze ;)). |
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| ronc |
he Patek offers some interesting design options. I drew one up on CAD and you can place the pot very close to the chip pins and it cuts down on HS area. I need to scrounge up a design using the hammond enclosures that wont take major cutting.
Good job Peter!
ron |
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| moe29 |
Peter, i still can't get over that picture of your volume control...
were you having a bad weekend?? ;)
and since everyone gets to ask a stupid question every once in
a while, what does Patek mean? |
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| Peter Daniel |
| Patek is a watch maker, better than Rolex. If you consider a GainCard as a Rolex of chip amps, you know what Patek amp means;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by moe29
Peter, i still can't get over that picture of your volume control...
were you having a bad weekend?? ;)
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You are not far from truth. I had a bad weekend after transformer volume control stage was taken away from my system and out of desperation I created this;) It sounds pretty good and eliminates the need for an additional interconnect. |
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| moe29 |
OK, Patek makes since now... and a very good description. Some
of the point-to-point work being done here does look like fine
Swiss watch making. I think there's a real beauty to PTP work
that makes PCB work look sterile. We live in a 3-D world so this
type of PTP construction makes sense - not only in looks, but in
sound quality too. This GC work got me to try PTP when i modified
my SOZ to X. I try to keep an open mind - things seem to go
smoother that way, plus every once in a while you learn something! :nod: |
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| Cradle22 |
Hi!
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Patek is a watch maker, better than Rolex. If you consider a GainCard as a Rolex of chip amps, you know what Patek amp means;) |
Then give us all a special gift for xmas and build a Muller GC (really spelt with "u", not with "ue"). Ask a serious watches freak who (or what) Muller is... In relation to Patek, you could charge up to about 25 - 30 times as much for a Muller GC than for a Patek GC :xeye:
Seriously, very beautiful cases.
Bye,
Arndt |
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| uvodee |
Patek Phillipe to be more precise
not cheap
J-P |
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| jwb |
| Say, where are you guys getting that perforated metal? I need to get quite a bit for my Power Macinaleph X amps :) I've seen several purveyors of perf online, but not quite sure what kind of minimum quantities and dimensions I can expect. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| I got mine from a local scrap yard. |
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| tbla |
| IWC is the one........:yummy: |
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| ronc |
I can and have bought a wrist chronograph thats more accurate than other watches after its been
calibrated.And it only cost around 100$ US.Used it when i was sailing (pre GPS).
ron
Form Follows Function! |
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| Peter Daniel |
| How accurate is it? |
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| king30 |
| quote: | | Say, where are you guys getting that perforated Metal? |
Here's one place:McMaster-Carr |
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| faustian bargin |
i always thought, most of the point behind having a watch like a patek phillipe was just to be able to have a patek phillipe, i.e. status. if you want to know the precise and accurate time, all you need is something that calibrates to the atomic clock, to a desired degree of precision. if you want a patek phillipe, well you have to get a patek phillipe. a knockoff is just a knockoff. it's the distinction between aesthetics and tradition, or perhaps said another way, between fashion and style.
dunno what that gets us in terms of the whole GC/chronograph analogy though.
/andrew |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by faustian bargin
dunno what that gets us in terms of the whole GC/chronograph analogy though.
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The name comes from Yoshi of Sakura Systems. After my first amp attempt and the whole controvercy on AA, Yoshi motivated me to create my own and unique amp, and not simply a copy of a GainCard. He also compared Gaincard to Rolex and suggested that if I want to create my own and unique design (which would improve on GainCard) it could be compared to Patek. So here it is;)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...&threadid=22407 |
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| ronc |
A marine crono is accurate to within fractions of a second over 1 year. I bought it and had it calibrated so i could use a sextant for marine navagation. The sextant became an interesting conversation piece as using the thing is a combo of black art and good luck.I shot the posiion once off the coast of florida and calculated i was in the middle of alabama.Gotta hand it to the old time mariners.
ron |
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| matjans |
hello all,
Damn that patek looks good!
(Apart from the sound) I think it's easier (and way cheaper) to build an enclosure like this than anything that has to do with full metal cases.
Oh btw, I think I just found a flaw in my design. Because of the cold (and thus dry) weather there's lots of static in the air. I walked to my computer, sat down, e-talked to someone for about 5 minutes, walked back to the amp, picked it up and CLICK. Static discharge to the case (which is grounded to star ground) and no more left channel. Bummer.
I think there might have been a spark between the copper heatsink (which touches the case) and the tiny little copper thingies on top of the lm3875tf.
I think I'll insulate the whole case from star ground and use a separate ground return to the PSU. My power connector has 4 wires of which i only use three at the moment.
Ron: i'm a pretty fanatical sailor but i'm too young to be from the pre-gps era although I do know how to use a sextant (which are horrible devices btw). What watch are you using? Not that it matters too much, you'll probably make more errors shooting angles than errors in timing... |
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| Peter Daniel |
I also noticed that I have quite a lot static discharge on a chassis. But it doesn't break the chip. The chassis is connected to input RCAs (which are simply not isolated). I did it this way as the Kimbers I'm using were too short to apply insulating washers.
BTW, the watch I'm using is pretty accurate too (only half a second over a year);)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...1021#post231021 |
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| matjans |
hmm now that i look closelyh it could also have been a little too much of that cheap silver heatsink stuff i use. It almost completely covered on of those tiny copper thingies. I don't think anything containing 10-20% silver can be a good dielectric...
Damn i'm running out of chips! |
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| matjans |
i have finally finished the psu case...
things to do: replace the bridge rectifiers with mur860's which i, in the end, prefer over the standard ones; put in a impuls relay to make the switch on button work. It's a nice button but it'd be even better when it actually did something. And, of course, put in one led per toroid...
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by jwb
Power Macinaleph X amps :) |
???
Is this alluding to the heat control in the G5?
dave |
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