| Chris |
Is it possible to use any other types of light sources than a UV lamp for exposing fotoresist PCBs?
If so, what is the recomended expousure time?
Thanx |
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| Possum |
| I've used a 150W or so halogen desk lamp on full brightness a few inches from the PCB with great results. The boards were the presensitized ones sold at PartsExpress.com. Exposure time was about 10-15 minutes, but I think even 8, as written on the board packaging, would've been fine. |
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| audioPT |
:D :D :D
My post is only to remember you that a good source of UV light can be obtained by direct sunlight ;) ;)
There are a lot of people making PCB's by this way in the world
Regards
Pedro Martins |
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| AuroraB |
| The photo material used on PCBs is designed to accept what is known as "actinious " light, with a wavelength of appx 370-380 nM. Although other light sources as e.g. sun light will or may work, you are best off with buying specialy deisgned lamp sources. A tip- light bulbs sold as disco black lights will also work... |
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| audioPT |
Ok!
Check my UV page (you may need altavista to translate)
The 4 lamps cost me 35€.
I think it's cheap making PCB's with UV lamps... |
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| Devil_H@ck |
| quote: | Originally posted by AuroraB
A tip- light bulbs sold as disco black lights will also work... |
:att'n: These lamps will NOT, I repeat, NOT work! Save yourself the trouble of going back to the store to ask your money back.
Black lights emit UV-B light if I remember correctly, the UV light needed for PCB boards is UV-A.
Lamps that can be used for this are lamps from a tanning device.
This is probably the cheapest way to get good lamps. Just go to a recycling store and buy yourself a tanner (correct word?).
I bought myself a tanner with 6 UV lamps in it for only 5€! It works great and it's so big that if I wanted to I could make PCB's of 1.5m * 50 cm :D. |
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| jackinnj |
8 minutes
about 5 years ago I took a photographic densitometric step tablet and used it to measure the optimal exposure -- for my light box (which also serves as a light table for examining negatives) it turned out to be 8 minutes
developing is a little trickier -- if you are using NaOH you should play around with various time and temperature combinations -- if you are using a less polar developing agent it becomes less critical. in the U.S. I have used drain cleaner when (Drano) when I ran out of NaOH.
you can do the developing using a red safelight -- then examine the board under white light turned on for a few seconds. if you are using NaOH wear rubber gloves. |
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| sam9 |
The presensitized posative process PCB sold by PartsExpress will form a nice image with just an ordinard 100W bulb hung in cheap relector about 12 inches above the board. Exposure time 7- imutes. With boards larger than 5in x 5in it works better to hang the lamp a bit higher and expose a bit longer. Use an inverse square calculation to estimate the time when hanging higher.
I've done enough boards this way that i've lost count. |
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| Christer |
Has anybody tried daylight tempered fluoroscent tubes
(5500 K)? I have both a light box with them for sorting slide
fillm and two larger ones in the ceiling over my painting easel.
Actually, I also have a light therapy panel, which is probably
even somewhere around 6500 K. |
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| cm961 |
I just recently got a flourescent daylight bulb. It fits in a normal light bulb socket and is rated at 23W. It is very bright, like you can face it towards the opposite wall and still read a book no problem. The last board I made I mounted the light 7 inches above the board and exposed for 6 minutes, but I overexposed it. I'm not sure if it was due to too much exposure time or the fact that my crappy ink jet printer didn't get the transparency mask dark enough. I think its the latter. I've tried to run the transparency through the printer a few times, but often it doesn't line up correctly and totally ruins it. Unfortunately as far as making boards goes, I've never had much luck although I've done a few correctly. I've wasted so much money, but I see no other option. Hopefully I'll develop a technique that works, because my next board will be a double sided one too.
Pete |
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| Possum |
| quote: | | I'm not sure if it was due to too much exposure time or the fact that my crappy ink jet printer didn't get the transparency mask dark enough. I think its the latter. I've tried to run the transparency through the printer a few times, but often it doesn't line up correctly and totally ruins it. |
You can print out the pattern on 2-3 transparencies and match them up. This produces more solid lines. Also, having something like a flat piece of glass hold the transparencies against the board helps keep light from getting a bit under the patterns and thinning out the developed traces. |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by cm961
I just recently got a flourescent daylight bulb. It fits in a normal light bulb socket and is rated at 23W. It is very bright, like you can face it towards the opposite wall and still read a book no problem. The last board I made I mounted the light 7 inches above the board and exposed for 6 minutes, but I overexposed it. I'm not sure if it was due to too much exposure time or the fact that my crappy ink jet printer didn't get the transparency mask dark enough. I think its the latter. I've tried to run the transparency through the printer a few times, but often it doesn't line up correctly and totally ruins it. Unfortunately as far as making boards goes, I've never had much luck although I've done a few correctly. I've wasted so much money, but I see no other option. Hopefully I'll develop a technique that works, because my next board will be a double sided one too.
Pete |
Good to hear, maybe I won't need to buy UV tubes then. BTW,
we don't regularly have the daylight bulb here. I asked in a local
shop and they had made a special order from the US for a photo
lab, but they didn't find them good, so they stuck to the tubes.
I was about to tell you to run the mask through the printer
several times, Slone recommends that, but many inkjet printers
are crappy. You might consider getting BW laser printer, then
there will most likely be no need to run it several times. There
are som cheap, althoug somewhat crappy laser printers, but
they will probably do the job. I used to have a cheap OKI. It printed
very well, but had no internal proccessor, so it hogged down
my PC. Not much of the problem for an occasional PCB. Eventually
it started to give me probelms with paper feed and printout
quality, so I got a more expensive printer, a Brother, which still has never
let med down for the three or four years I've had it. Ah yes, it
is so fast compared to my OKI, so when I think I can go away and
brew a cup of coffee while it is printing out a thick manual or
something, I usully won't be finished with the brewing until
it starts beeping cause it's out of paper. :)
. Still, something like
the OKI might do if you don't use it too heavily for other printing
too. |
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| jackinnj |
| quote: | Originally posted by Possum
You can print out the pattern on 2-3 transparencies and match them up. This produces more solid lines. Also, having something like a flat piece of glass hold the transparencies against the board helps keep light from getting a bit under the patterns and thinning out the developed traces. |
one thing which you might try -- run the transparency material through the printer twice. you can also go over the lines with a red sharpie.
only problem with this is that 10 mil traces might wander a bit. |
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| Possum |
| Yeah, with multiple layers of transparencies, you won't have to worry about the wandering. You can make sure by eye that the traces are lined up. |
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| AuroraB |
Disco black lights does not emit UV-B, - or should not - at least...
UV-B is hazardous and should be avoided, almost at all cost..
50 cm tubes are in the market in Scandinavia, called TLA-15 by Osram, but- I wil check the number tomorrow at work, and repost.
2 of those in a ordinary 50 cm lamp does the job, even one for PCBs up to 10-15 cm wide.
Most light sources, except discharge lamps, will have broad spectrum output,, and give some emission at the desired wavelength, but you are much better off with proper light sources.
The double or triple transparency prints work OK, but there is a product on the market called Laserstar, which does an excellent job as a carrier film for printers. However- this product looks and feels very much like the plastic drawing film used for tech drawing in the 70s and 80s before plotters became cheap...
Try an architects office or something, - this product must still be available..?? |
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| Magura |
Lsast time i did a board i used the local tan center across the street :)
....you chuck in the equalent of 2 usd and get 8 min of exposure :cool:
Magura |
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| rendisha |
Blacklight fluo tubes are the right ones for the job.
You have two types - blacklight (BL - with white coating, looking like normal fluo tubes) and blacklight blues (BLB - with blue-violet glass used to block most of visible light) that are mostly referred as disco blacklights.
They have UV peaks at about 370nm, (if I remember correctly) and I'll try later to find some datasheets from Philips and NEC to prove that.
Presensitized pcbs are most sensitive to near-visible UV light, here's some links:
Bungard and
Injectorall
Maybe there are some types of photoresists that are more sensitive to other wavelenghts, but these ones (for home use) are happy when you light them with 350-400 nm.
I use cheap Chinese $2 BLB's, laser printed drafting paper (if that's what's known in Germany as Paus Papier - semitransparent waxy paper), some unknown brand of presensitized pcbs, exposure time 6-7 minutes and it works great - no problem with 10mil traces. (don't have a digicam to show the results) |
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| Chris |
Thanks for all the replies. :)
Did a search last night regarding blacklight at the osram website.
(www.osram.com) I found this boulb: (Blacklight)
HQV 125W E27 12X1
You can find it under:
Catalogue/ Lamps for General Lighting/ Special Lamps/ UV-Lamps HQV lamps and black glass fluorescents
At osram.
You think this will work? |
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| AuroraB |
If you want to buy lamps/ tubes for PCB this is what you need:
http://www.elfa.se/elfa/produkter/no/2013692.htm
Don't buy a black light tube or bulb.
This the complete unit, - a bit costly for hobby use...
http://www.elfa.se/elfa/produkter/no/162391.htm
I have been using units like these for 30 years....
Otherwise, - the part is TLD15W/05 ( or the smaller TL8W/05).
The 15W version fits any 50 cm norwegian lighting fixture.
2 of these in" standard dobbel kjøkkenlampe" does an excellent job! |
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| rendisha |
| Here are spectral power distribution graphs from Philips for blacklight blue (fluo tube, not the incandescent bulb!) and TL type ("normal" UVA blacklight) that AuroraB recommends. |
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| Chris |
Thanks again.
After thinking a bit of thinking :scratch2: , I have decided that ist probably best to get one of the tubes that AuroraB recomends.
Will one 15w tube do the job also?
For developing with NaOH what is the right concentration and temp? |
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| AuroraB |
One tube can do the jo, but the board should not be too wide.
You have appx. 42 cm active length from on tube, which should be adequate, but in the transverse direction of the tube, one needs more tubes spaced appx 6-7 cm for even ditribution. One tube will work, but remember to compensate for exposure time, - it's proportional to distance. If you use very thin tracks, you might have problems with "underlightning", light falling in with a low angle. If possible, reverse your printout, so that the ink or toner is lying directly towards the PBC. You will have to experiment with exposure time, - but I think appx 4 min should do the trick, for an appx 10-12 cm wide board.
Here is also another norwegian source for what you need;
www.krepro.no
check in "Prototypefremstilling- kretskort"
Developing with NaOH,- the recommended concentration is 12g/liter,- normal room temp works OK. Sometimes, on old "well stored" material, a very light swabbing with a cotton wool bud is necesseary to loosen off the rest of the resist.
Oh- BTW normal "kaustisk soda" bought i a painters shop works OK, - no need for chemically pure NaOH.
Good luck! |
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| Bricolo |
| Is there a problem in exposing the board longer? (2x or 3x the normal time) |
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| cm961 |
If you expose too long the etching will remove all the copper from the board, leaving nothing. I would assume that if your transparency is super, super, perfectly dark then you could expose indefinetly and get the best result. But thats a little theoretical. I've had lots of trouble overexposing.
Pete |
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| Chris |
Thanks Aurora B for the info, also the website contained usefull info.
One question (last one I hope) : Distance between board and UV tube. Let`s say 10cm above the board and the board is 7,5 cm wide.
Do you recon that is ok. After that do some test with exposure time, like kepro recomends.
NaOH I can get at the lab, where I`m taking my masters.
Tube and boards are on their way (Happy Christmas:hohoho: )
Thanks again
Christoher |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by cm961
If you expose too long the etching will remove all the copper from the board, leaving nothing. I would assume that if your transparency is super, super, perfectly dark then you could expose indefinetly and get the best result. But thats a little theoretical. I've had lots of trouble overexposing.
Pete |
OK,
Is this the same for the revelation process? Or can we let the board longer in the perchloride? |
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| stokessd |
I've been using the stacked transparency method for about 15 years now with very good results. I also do large surface mount with it. If people are interested in my methods (nothing exotic) I'll be glad to elaborate.
Sheldon |
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| Bricolo |
Since some many of the members here make theyr PCBs themselves, I'll ask a few questions :)
I'm designing my first one, with Eagle.
What configuration do you use for self made PCBs? I used Eagle's default one (trace width: 16mil, space between 2 traces: 8mil)
It looked nice on the computer's screen. But when I printed it, and saw the real size, the traces are sooo thin, and the space between them is even thinner.
What size and spacing do you use? |
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| AuroraB |
For homemade PCbs I would use 40 mil as std, maybe 50, maybe down to 20 mil in special cases, and 30 -40 mil as normal spacing. Less-than-perfect equipment requires better spacing and wider traces, at least as long as there is room for it on the board. This reduces the chance for micro-breaks and short circuits.
The smaller widths and spacings would be reserved for traces in-between component pins. |
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| Bricolo |
:bawling:
Eagle's default config is way too small. 8mil spacing! And 16mil traces.
I set up the traces to 40mil now, it's better.
But the problem is that I have I groundfill that must go under a DIL component. And it must run between it's pins. Small... |
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| Devil_H@ck |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bricolo
Is this the same for the revelation process? Or can we let the board longer in the perchloride? |
Yes! Don't put your exposed PCB to long in the developper or everything will disappear. I wasted 5 Eurocard sized boards because I was using the stuff that you use to clain your plumbing etc. After 4 days of non-stop failure, I figured that it wasn't due to my exposing times, but due to the developper that my PCB's failed. So I went to the electronics store and asked them. They told me that if you put the PCB in the developper too long, the traces will vanish.
| quote: | Originally posted by stokessd
I've been using the stacked transparency method for about 15 years now with very good results. I also do large surface mount with it. If people are interested in my methods (nothing exotic) I'll be glad to elaborate. |
Please do elaborate :). |
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| Bricolo |
What software do you use to design the PCB?
I'm learning how to use eagle. The schematic and pcb are ready (on the computer), but I don't find how to print the image for a homemade pcb |
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| usekgb |
I'm having the same problems in ExpressPCB. I have my PCB all layed out in software, but every time I try to export it to BMP, I just get a black rectangle. I tried changing the background color to white, and the trace color to black, but I still just got one big black rectangle the size of the PCB. Any help on this? I need to get my 300W bridged/paralleled GC going.
Cheers,
Zach |
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| Chris |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bricolo
What software do you use to design the PCB?
I'm learning how to use eagle. The schematic and pcb are ready (on the computer), but I don't find how to print the image for a homemade pcb |
I use the free version of Eagle Cad. It has some limitations as a free version. I have never had any problems printing a project.
However you can`t print your project as an image file. Thats probably one of the limitations(?). What I did to convert the project into an image was to print it and then scan it.
You need also to turn off the various layers before printing(Components,Value etc.). So that what you see on your screen, are only tracks and pads. |
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| davesaudio |
| quote: | | I'm having the same problems in ExpressPCB. I have my PCB all lay.... |
I either
1) just print the express pcb image and manipulate
with photo copier if need sizing -
2) use grabit pro or similar and capture the screen (bmp etc) then
manipulate further in photoshop
ok, maybe learning eagle is not a bad idea.... |
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| Bricolo |
| OK, so there's no ready to use option like "print for DIY PCB" :( |
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| Devil_H@ck |
| I don't really know about the free version of Eagle, but why would you want to export it as an image? The print command let's you print whatever you want as far as I know. You can even mirror, etc. |
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| Chris |
| quote: | Originally posted by davesaudio
ok, maybe learning eagle is not a bad idea.... |
I have tried various PCB software, but have always gone back to
Eagle.
The following limitations apply to the EAGLE Light Edition in general:
The useable board area is limited to 100 x 80 mm (4 x 3.2 inches).
Only two signal layers can be used (Top and Bottom).
The schematic editor can only create one sheet.
(From Eagle webpage)
http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm
So you can pack alot of parts on your board, no pin limitations :smash: |
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| Bricolo |
Yep, eagle light isn't very limited for a DIYer
Elso adviced me boarmaker, but the free version don't even allow you to save or print |
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| jackinnj |
| quote: | Originally posted by davesaudio
ok, maybe learning eagle is not a bad idea.... |
as I stated earlier, I am now a disgruntled Ultiboard user -- problems with Win2K and the product which they refuse to fix.
Ergo hoc -- I have learned eagle -- and it is much easier in some respects (not having to name nets for one thing.) I would suggest downloading it and printing out the manuals. |
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| Chris |
| quote: | Originally posted by Devil_H@ck
...., but why would you want to export it as an image? ...... |
To print/copy the project on another computer with a laserp. if you are using press`n peel or want to use copier to make transparencies for uv expusure.
:deer: Chris |
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| rendisha |
You need Adobe Acrobat that comes with Distiller - PDF printer, so you print directly into PDF file.
There are some freeware alternatives - I just downloaded one at
www.acrosoftware.com
Still haven't tried it at home, where I have Eagle installed. |
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| gsattler |
For those of you looking for software: I built a project recently using AutoTrax EDA (95$). It worked fairly well despite a few oddities and glitches in the software. They have a pin limited demo version. oh, to print for PCB exposure, use the plot wizard. a bit confusing, but will work for pos, neg, etc.
I was building amp circuits using 150x250 mm presensitized boards and used double transparency w/ 300w 90s exposure and standard developer for ~60s, and heated/agitated FeCl etchant for ~5min. 7.40$ for 150x250 dbl sided pcb in qty 10+ from CircuitSpecialists. |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris
To print/copy the project on another computer with a laserp. if you are using press`n peel or want to use copier to make transparencies for uv expusure.
:deer: Chris |
I don't understant your problem
Can't you simply print the image directly on the transparency? |
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| Chris |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bricolo
Can't you simply print the image directly on the transparency? |
:shy: Yes , what was I thinking ??? I` m sorry :confused: |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris
:shy: Yes , what was I thinking ??? I` m sorry :confused: |
But I can't get eagle to make this work.
Printing is ok, ant at the correct size. Bit with colors (tracks in blue and pads in green) of course I want a black and white transparency
But setting eagle's printing to monochrome doesn't work :( |
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| Chris |
Hi Bricolo
Strange, maybe there is a bug in the eagle software???
Have you tried to cange the default setting on your printer to print only in black?
Hope this may help.. |
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| cm961 |
I have had a lot of success with CircuitMaker (TraxMaker). The printing is very powerful and the software is easy to learn and use. Although not super powerful (for example, the autoplace is useless), it works well.
Grab the demo from their website, or from *****.
Pete :D |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris
Hi Bricolo
Strange, maybe there is a bug in the eagle software???
Have you tried to cange the default setting on your printer to print only in black?
Hope this may help.. |
I tryed too, and got a 100% white page :xeye: |
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| Chris |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bricolo
I tryed too, and got a 100% white page :xeye: |
I just tried to print my board into pdf. It worked just fine!
I used acrobat pro. If you don`t have the software you can try the freeware rendisha suggested.
www.acrosoftware.com
:smash: :smash: :smash: |
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| Bricolo |
| Can you explain me hod you exported the pcb into a pdf file? |
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| rendisha |
| This software installs printer driver (or better say printer). All you have to do is choose that "printer" when you want to get PDF file from Eagle. |
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| Chris |
| It should look like this................ |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris
It should look like this................ |
OK, I see
BTW, what does the option "black" on your computer? |
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| Chris |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bricolo
OK, I see
BTW, what does the option "black" on your computer? |
Prints in black,no color, it`s an Eagle print feature. |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris
Prints in black,no color, it`s an Eagle print feature. |
when I use the black function, I got a white page, with only the components names:cannotbe: |
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| Chris |
Hmm. It`s a bit difficult for me to check the various printing features in Eagle at the moment, since I have no printer at home at the moment. And it been a while since I used Eagle.
But this is what you should see before printing (also try the solid function). Hope this may help....? |
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| Bricolo |
I only selected bottom and pads, since it'a a single layer pcb
activating the black option prints me a blank page |
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| Chris |
Must be something wrong with your software. Using the black-function should give you a nice print to use. Have you tried to make a pdf file of your project?.
Suggestions:
1. Get the latest driver for your printer.
2. Save your project and download the latest the Eagle software from the CAD SOFT site.
Happy diy :smash: :smash: :smash: |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by rendisha
You need Adobe Acrobat that comes with Distiller - PDF printer, so you print directly into PDF file.
There are some freeware alternatives - I just downloaded one at
www.acrosoftware.com
Still haven't tried it at home, where I have Eagle installed. |
I tried with this "PDF Printer", and that works without any problem!
Thanks for the tip!
It seems that there's a problem with my printer's driver. |
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| Chris |
This weekend I tried to develop my first PCB boards using UV light and boards with positve fotoresist. I placed the tube ca. 8 cm above the board and exposed it for 4.5 min (after testing first). And the result was great..................
:D :D :D :D :D
Happy new year:) |
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| Devil_H@ck |
I have some little problems lately. While the PCB's themselves get better and better, it's the drilling that causes troubles.
When I drill a hole in a small trace, the copper around it gets lose from the board. I didn't use the have this. Could this be because my drill bit is worn down? It's a real pain, because very short traces (eg. between 2 resistors legs that are very close together) almost dissapear from the PCB and I have to bend the legs underneath the board to connect them together that way.
What's my problem? |
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| Chris |
| quote: | Originally posted by Devil_H@ck
I have some little problems lately. While the PCB's themselves get better and better, it's the drilling that causes troubles.
|
Hi
What size bits do you use? I use 0,1 to 1,0 mm size. The bit must be centered properly or else the drill hole will be bigger. I also put ordinary scotch tape on the board. This stops the "wandering" of the drill, before it starts to penetrate the surface. I also use a dremel tool for the drilling.
Happy DIY
:) :) :) |
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| jackinnj |
| the problem is that your drill bit may be worn in which case it's heating up the pad and loosening the adhesive which binds the copper layer to the fiberglas. if you find that the pads are disappearing consider drilling before you etch -- as has been pointed out before -- this might result in some of the etchant creeping into the pad and making the hole unpretty -- but you can stop this by applying a little wax or nail polish over the hole. |
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| Devil_H@ck |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris
What size bits do you use? I use 0,1 to 1,0 mm size. The bit must be centered properly or else the drill hole will be bigger. I also put ordinary scotch tape on the board. This stops the "wandering" of the drill, before it starts to penetrate the surface. I also use a dremel tool for the drilling. |
I also use a Dremel and the bits I use are 0.8 mm which is just right for most parts. I'll try the scotch tape thing. I didn't have this problem 2 weeks ago, only with the last 3 boards I did I had this problem. I made a JLH board 2-3 weeks ago with a new bit I bought then and all holes on it are near perfect.
| quote: | Originally posted by jackinnj
the problem is that your drill bit may be worn in which case it's heating up the pad and loosening the adhesive which binds the copper layer to the fiberglas. |
I think this is my problem, however, I only have bought the drill bit 2 weeks ago and have since drilled maybe a maximum of 100-150 holes. Is it normal that the bit is worn out after that? These things cost 2.5€, so I expect they should last a bit longer. Also, are there more than one type of these? So, could it be that I have a 0.8mm drill bit for wood, where I need one for iron? |
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| AuroraB |
| Low quality drill bits will wear very rapidly. Use only good quality HSS drill bits, or at best - the tungsten-carbide bits specially made for PCBs. These comes with a standard 1/8 inch shaft and fits the Dremel perfectly. They should be appx. 3USD ( or Euros) each,- but beware- they are extremely brittle and breaks easily, particularly with just a twich of sideways pressure. Run the Dremel at full speed and feed gently. |
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| Devil_H@ck |
Weird, the store at which I buy them is supossed to only have very high quality stuff. It's in a not so small town (well, for Belgium that is) and it's the only store in the city that has this kind of stuff.
Do you have any idea where I could get those special high quallity drill bits? |
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| AuroraB |
This is the stuff you want...
http://www.bungard.de/seiten/m_bfraeser.htm
Or the main page www.bungard.de
Bungard is just one of many..
I know Farnell stocks these drill bits, and ELFA in Sweden, both inside EU..
Try a national search and look for a Belgian rep. for Bungard...
Good luck |
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| Devil_H@ck |
Thanks! If you say Farnell has them, I'll consider giving th em a call, since they ship for free.
Oh, the Bungard drills, what type do I need if I want to buy them? The hard metal drills?
<- nevermind that question, the other things on the link you gave are not for drilling :rolleyes:. |
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