| Bernhard |
Hi ,
what is special about this caps ? Sound good ?
I have 220/10, what can I do with them ?
Has anybody ever tried Siemens MKL ?
Greetings, Bernhard |
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| dhaen |
They're special because they are a little closer to the "perfect capacitor" than most other electrolytics.
Whether they sound good or bad (like any other component) depends on how you use them.
The value and voltage makes them perfect for cathode bypass (decoupling) in many small signal valve stages......time for a change?;) |
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| Bernhard |
Just found a use for them :) , have 120 or so.
Is Nichicon LXF or SXE something special or just üpper middle class ? |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | | The value and voltage makes them perfect for cathode bypass (decoupling) in many small signal valve stages......time for a change? |
Although I am very fond of OSCON in digital gear I am surprised that they are recommended in tube amps. My experience is that they don't sound optimal in the analog signal path. In the digital part of cdplayers and for the supply of low jitter oscillators they are the right cap at the right place. I recall using them once for decoupling an opamp in the output stage. Deteriorated the sound, very thin bass. It took me some time to find out that it were the OSCONs ( 15 uF 25V ). I gave them the time to settle but couldn't get good results.
SXE is very good. Mmm, nearly miswrote that quote :D Long life and low ESR and good sounding. I forgot about LXF, couldn't obtain them easily as well so I used SXE instead. OSCON is better though.
Please google for datasheets on OSCON. You'll like what you'll read... |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
Although I am very fond of OSCON in digital gear I am surprised that they are recommended in tube amps. My experience is that they don't sound optimal in the signal path.
SXE is very good. Mmm, nearly miswrote that quote :D Long life and low ESR and good sounding. I forgot about LXF, couldn't obtain them easily as well so I used SXE instead. |
Lol, and I misread :D |
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| dhaen |
| For those who can "hear" unmeasureable artefacts, they may not be right :D |
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| jean-paul |
Strange comment from a tube geek, tube geeks hear unmeasurable artefacts all the time :D
Anyhow, I am not the only one with that experience. I *do* stock and use OSCON 100/220 uF quite frequently and I am in no way negative about this great product except that there are better caps out there for use in the analog signal path. |
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| Lars Clausen |
In my experience OSCON's are great for digital circuit decoupling. However a bit sharp sounding for decoupling analog stages. Nothing i know beats Black Gate in that area.
LXF - SXE are you talking Nippon Chemicon's?
We used a lot of these in the 90's where analythical was good, and micro details analysis was better. (At any cost .. specially musicality). Nowadays though, other sound types and other capacitors are preferred. |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
Strange comment from a tube geek, tube geeks hear unmeasurable artefacts all the time :D
Anyhow, I am not the only one with that experience. I *do* stock and use OSCON 100/220 uF quite frequently and I am in no way negative about this great product except that there are better caps out there for use in the analog signal path. |
Jean-Paul, what about some OSCONs for the 14 decoupling caps of a TDA1541A? |
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| jean-paul |
Yes I meant Nippon Chemicon, now United Chemicon SXE. Used them mainly in digital gear with good results.
| quote: | | Nowadays though, other sound types and other capacitors are preferred. |
You're right. Time to move on. BG NX Hi Q is very good but few values are made unfortunately. Panasonic FC is good and not expensive. BCComponents make some fine caps as well, I use them mostly.
| quote: | | Jean-Paul, what about some OSCONs for the 14 decoupling caps of a TDA1541A? |
Yeah, what about them ? ;) |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
Yeah, what about them ? ;) |
Hehe ;)
I was just wondering if you tryed, and whod it sounded. |
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| Bernhard |
Okay, I will put some in my CD and the rest on ebay.
Anyone tried Siemens MKL ? |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bernhard
Okay, I will put some in my CD and the rest on ebay. |
Mail me if you want to sell some ;) |
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| Bernhard |
Have something to trade ?
I have more than 200 pieces... |
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| dhaen |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
snip...Although I am very fond of OSCON in digital gear I am surprised that they are recommended in tube amps. My experience is that they don't sound optimal in the analog signal path...snip.. |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
Strange comment from a tube geek, tube geeks hear unmeasurable artefacts all the time :D
..snip |
I don't usually rely on references, but depend on the strength of my own argument to justify my point. However, I couldn't resist this, which I read today in Morgan Jones' 3rd Edition of Valve Amplifiers. Page 222 includes this:
~ , Sanyo's "OS-CON" range of capacitors uses an organic semiconductor electrolyte that significantly reduces ESR. Reduced electrolyte resistivity allows deeper etching, resulting in higher capacitance per unit volume, and therefore reduced inductance. OS-CONS therefore have measureably better high frequency characteristics, and would be ideally suited as cathode bypass capacitors, if it were not for their extremely high price.
Morgan is usually on-target with his judgements.
The capacitors in this case are "stock".
For anyone with an interest in valves, Morgan's 3rd Edition is a must. I recommend it highly.
Edit: That'll be £10 please Mr Jones :D |
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| Bernhard |
The OSCONs that I have are purple and say 105°, but have magnetic leads, so nothing for the signal path, but for digital decoupling should be very good because 0,4 Ohm @ 100kHz.
Found a website that says @1Mhz and 15MHz better ripple rejection than BG :xeye:
What about Rubycon GXF 10000µF/10V ?
The thing is I plan to build low voltage rail classA amp and 10V caps are perfect.
I wonder if the magnetic leads of the OSCONS do harm if they are in the analog psu.
Also TO3 Fets are magnetic and a lot :bigeyes: |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bernhard
Have something to trade ?
I have more than 200 pieces... |
Money?
Or a CD player that I don't use much (philips cd940) |
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| Bernhard |
Thanks, not another CD player ;)
Maybe make an offer total price for how many pieces you want.
I have 220 and want to keep 40 for own use, the rest 180 pieces I can sell.
Looks like it is the cap for 5V supply of DAC.
I am looking for nonmagnetic resistors, Jahre mica caps, TDA 1541 S1 :xeye: , Hitachi TO3 fets or substitutes like buz 900 series.
 |
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| Bricolo |
I will never find the need for 180. Maybe 20, or less.
But I have nothing to trade, what's your price? |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | | I will never find the need for 180. Maybe 20, or less. |
Wrong thinking, Bricolo ! You'll never get that much wanted stock this way ;) |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
Wrong thinking, Bricolo ! You'll never get that much wanted stock this way ;) |
I'm sure you only need 160 ;) |
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| jean-paul |
Sorry, I have 50 in stock. Not to mention my other caps.
If the price is right, buy them all. Sell what you don't need and have your own parts for free.
Yes, I am dutch ;) |
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| Bernhard |
You can get as much as you like between 1 and 180 :D
Make an offer !
I have no idea... |
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| Vigier |
Hi,
just a small question besides this discussion (and a big HI to JeanPaul!)
I'm planning to build a power supply to feed 3 4th order crossovers. (that means driving 24 single opamps) The idea is to build this powersupply:
http://hitechnetworks.net/bwaldron/...1_regulator.htm
Since the standard 4700µF capacitors have a rather large impedance, I planned to replace each 4700µF capacitor (that are C15, C16, C21, C22 in this schematic) with 4 United Chemicon SXE 470µF/50V capacitors in parallel.
The capacitiance is 40% of what the schematic says, but the ESR of those parallel capacitors is WAY lower than with one 4700µF, and the max ripple current is about 2 times as high.
Is this a good idea to do?
Grtz, Joris
P.S. The specs of the 470µF SXE's: 0.068 Ohm maximum impedance at 100kHz (20 degr C.) Maximum ripple current at 100kHz (105degr C.) is 1320mA |
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| jean-paul |
A big HI to you too Joris ! The idea of replacing the 4700 uF caps for 4 x 470 uf just for very low ESR makes not much sense. In ripple calculations the capacitance value is the one you're calculating with unless you're dealing with a switcher.
So you have to know how much current your 24 opamp crossover will draw. Then use the rule of thumb ( or look up the formula if you wish ) that one 2200 uF will suffice for 1A of current draw. Now calculate how many 470 uF SXE you need before the regulators. I am confident 4 x 470 uF will suffice with modern opamps. Nevertheless calculate things. Why not use 8 x 470 uF if you have them ?
But... I wouldn't use low ESR caps *after* the regulators.
BTW we are threadjacking.
Jean-Paul/ who hopes Jan Didden is around for a theoretical backup. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | But... I wouldn't use low ESR caps *after* the regulators. |
Neither would I unless you want an oscillator.
Cheers,;) |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
Neither would I unless you want an oscillator.
Cheers,;) |
and after a shunt reg (TL431), is it ok? |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | and after a shunt reg (TL431), is it ok? |
According to the ON-SEMI datasheet, yes.
Cheers, ;) |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
According to the ON-SEMI datasheet, yes.
Cheers, ;) |
What does the datasheet say about that?
Not to use a 10nF<cap<1uF ?
Did I understant dut curve correctly?
But I didn't find anything about the cap's ESR |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | What does the datasheet say about that? |
Nothing I could find so I think it's safe to assume ESR of CL doesn't affect the shuntreg's performance on paper.
| quote: | | Not to use a 10nF<cap<1uF ? |
Even upto 10µF can be unstable as shown in fig.15.
Note also that the unsafe area varies with Vref.
Cheers,;) |
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| Bricolo |
You're right, 10uF ;)
this was a mistype
So Bernahard, how much do you want for some of your oscons? |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Bricolo,
Here's a useful spreadsheet showing recommended values for CL
in cells B21-B22.
TI TL431
Cheers,;) |
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| Bernhard |
Hi Bricolo,
1 EUR for 1 piece ?
I could not find a websit where they sell any.
Seems to be difficult to get that stuff :confused: |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bernhard
Hi Bricolo,
1 EUR for 1 piece ?
I could not find a websit where they sell any.
Seems to be difficult to get that stuff :confused: |
that's too much for me, sorry :( |
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| Bricolo |
I just looked on radiospare's website, how much do the 100uF oscons cost.
Damn! 5 of them cost than my bottles of Bordeaux!
Since those caps seem to be cheaper everywhere else, and that french wine is certainly more expensive abroad... who wants a bottle of Bordeaux? :D |
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| Bernhard |
| Have the link to radio spare ? How much they want for the oscons ? |
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| Bricolo |
Sorry I can't give a direct link, because when you go th theyr website, you are "logged", your url ends with a session id, and is invalid after some minutes of inactivity. That sux
www.radiospares.fr
on the left menu: "actifs et passifs", then "condensateurs", "aluminium", "polarises", and on the 3rd page you have 3 types of OSCONS.
Tell me what you think of theyr prices |
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| Bernhard |
| Mon dieu ! :eek: |
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| Bernhard |
Bricolo,
just kidding ;)
Send me a bottle of good french Bordeaux :drunk: and I send you 5 OCONS :D
Bernhard |
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| Bricolo |
Yes, 16.20€ for 5 caps :/ This iw way too expensive for me
Your offer was a little too expensive ;) |
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| ingram |
I have some quetion Jean-paul,isnt the bypass caps also caps *after* the regulator?Or is it only the output cap near the regulator count?
quote:
But... I wouldn't use low ESR caps *after* the regulators. |
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| jean-paul |
| You don't want to know what I pay for them ;) |
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| EE_Mark |
| I use them but not much because they only go to 25 or 35 volts. |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
You don't want to know what I pay for them ;) |
Yes I do ;) |
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| Vigier |
I DO know :)
Grtz, Joris |
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| Bernhard |
| What about my bottle of wine :confused: |
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| Bricolo |
| That was a joke ;) |
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| jean-paul |
| Too bad, otherwise I would have sent you some OSCON for a good Bordeaux ;) |
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| Christer |
Although the OS-CONs aren't exactly chep here, I wouldn't
mind buying a handful of them and swap for a Chateu LaTour,
preferrably of good vintage. A Chateu Petrus wouldn't be
wrong either. :) |
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| Bricolo |
In fact, elfa.se isn't cheaper than radiospares.fr, for the oscons :(
16€ for 5*100uF 20V caps, that's sooo expensive :bawling:
The 15uF are much more affordable |
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| Bernhard |
| Honestly I'd prefer sparkling wine 'Krimskoye' :xeye: |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bricolo
In fact, elfa.se isn't cheaper than radiospares.fr, for the oscons :(
16€ for 5*100uF 20V caps, that's sooo expensive :bawling:
The 15uF are much more affordable |
Never said so. They are expensive, but I can buy their stuff
off the shelf here in town. Still, I think I would make a good
deal on my offer to swap them for a Chateu LaTour. I never
said how many OS-CONs a handful would be, by the way. :) |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Christer
Never said so. They are expensive, but I can buy their stuff
off the shelf here in town. Still, I think I would make a good
deal on my offer to swap them for a Chateu LaTour. I never
said how many OS-CONs a handful would be, by the way. :) |
The cheapest Chateau Latour costs 100€, I don't need that many oscons ;) |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bricolo
The cheapest Chateau Latour costs 100€, I don't need that many oscons ;) |
Ah, but my point was I never said you would get that many
OS-CONS that it would make up for the price of the bottle.
If so, I could buy the bottle myself instead of buying OS-CONS
to send you. I twas all just a joke about this swapping caps for
wine, of course. :) |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Christer
Ah, but my point was I never said you would get that many
OS-CONS that it would make up for the price of the bottle.
If so, I could buy the bottle myself instead of buying OS-CONS
to send you. I twas all just a joke about this swapping caps for
wine, of course. :) |
1 oscon (or black gate) per cl of wine :D |
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| Bernhard |
| Another 150 gone. 10 left @ ebay. |
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| EE_Mark |
Here in America we have an idiot retard for a pResident. I'm sure everyone heard about the "Freedom Fries". Disturbing, to say the least.
Just curious - does anyone in any other country have ANY respect for George Bush? Despite what you may hear from the American media about how popular he is rest assured everyone here hates him with a passion. |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by EE_Mark
Here in America we have an idiot retard for a pResident. I'm sure everyone heard about the "Freedom Fries". Disturbing, to say the least.
Just curious - does anyone in any other country have ANY respect for George Bush? Despite what you may hear from the American media about how popular he is rest assured everyone here hates him with a passion. |
Can't quite see why you posted this in this thread and I don't
want to encourage a political discussion here, but I think I
can give you at least two examples, Blair and Berlusconi,
but maybe they have changed their mind and are just trying
to save their faces. I don't even want to post what my local
Iraqi pizza baker said the other day when I asked for his opinion
on the current situation in Iraq, and I assure you he hated
Saddam more than anything else. I won't go into details of
what he said, I might end up in the sin bin. :)
I will probably regret writing this, since it will probably help
to fire a political discussion, which I don't think we should have
here. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Despite what you may hear from the American media about how popular he is rest assured everyone here hates him with a passion |
Good. So I take it you won't reelect that MM than?
Christer's right though, we shouldn't discuss that here....No matter what the pizzaman thinks.
Cheers,;) |
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| cocolino |
Hi Bernhard,
just noticed that we`re almost neighbours :bigeyes: :cool:
I`m not far from WOR :)
| quote: | originally posted by EE_Mark
Just curious - does anyone in any other country have ANY respect for George Bush? |
NO :smash: |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | I'm sure everyone heard about the "Freedom Fries". Disturbing, to say the least. |
No, not really.
Choke on 'em...:D |
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| Bernhard |
I have no idea who wanted the president guy we have here in my country.
So it seems to be the same everywhere.
| quote: | Originally posted by cocolino
I`m not far from WOR :)
|
Hi Christoph,
thats my very birth city :clown: |
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| EE_Mark |
| I shouldn't have posted something political here. I had just read the news and then I saw a post from France and it reminded me of how much I dislike a certain person. But this is no place for politics so back to the original subject. Sorry about that. |
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| Bernhard |
Rudolf,
they are prepared for pcb mount, so the leads are cut. Thats all.
Still 150 left.
Greetings, Bernhard |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bernhard
Rudolf,
they are prepared for pcb mount, so the leads are cut. Thats all.
Still 150 left.
Greetings, Bernhard |
hello Bernard,
would be glad to receive one sample. If OK I might take the remaining 149. Your ebay rating is OK.;)
I am a bit confused you did not post your little trade in the trading section but started/continued a discussion.
Kind regards,
:confused: |
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| Bricolo |
Hi Elso,
Dis you recieve my email (from yesterday evening)?
Alex |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bricolo
Hi Elso,
Dis you recieve my email (from yesterday evening)?
Alex |
Hi Alex,
Yes I replied to it. But I am quite busy here on the forum as you will understand.
:clown: |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Elso Kwak
Hi Alex,
Yes I replied to it. But I am quite busy here on the forum as you will understand.
:clown: |
Yep, I saw you have some wrinting planned ;)
Edit: I didn't get your answear (I sent you the PCB) |
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| Bernhard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Elso Kwak
hello Bernard,
would be glad to receive one sample. If OK I might take the remaining 149. Your ebay rating is OK.;)
I am a bit confused you did not post your little trade in the trading section but started/continued a discussion.
Kind regards,
:confused: |
And you still don't trust me :whazzat: :smash:
I can send you a sample :D but if you don't like it you got to send it back :devilr:
email me your address...
I did not know about OSCON, so I asked, and as I learned that theese are good only and especially for digital decoupling I do not have 100 DACs, so I can use only a few and sell/trade the rest ;)
Bernhard :) |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bernhard
And you still don't trust me :whazzat: :smash:
I can send you a sample :D but if you don't like it you got to send it back :devilr:
email me your address...
I did not know about OSCON, so I asked, and as I learned that theese are good only and especially for digital decoupling I do not have 100 DACs, so I can use only a few and sell/trade the rest ;)
Bernhard :) |
Hello Bernard, I do trust you but I don't trust the Oscons, hence the sample. No need for hammering down.
;) |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | | Hello Bernard, I do trust you but I don't trust the Oscons |
If you don't trust the OSCONs why asking for a sample then ??
BTW OSCON can be bought in the Netherlands too for a good price.... |
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| rbroer |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
If you don't trust the OSCONs why asking for a sample then ??
BTW OSCON can be bought in the Netherlands too for a good price.... |
Really ?
Where Jean-Paul ?
The ones I have, have been ordered from Farnell, but I can't really call them cheap. |
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| sma |
| oscon,as i test is good for digital,black gate is the best for analog section |
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| KBK |
In my experince of using Os-Con caps for over 3 years in everything I touch, they work fine in the signal path. I personally think any thiness observed in the bass has to do specifically with the OS-CON capacitor 'opening up' the high frequencies. If the audio equipment is designed or executed with the other caps in place, and with shut in and muddied highs, then.. when you put the os-cons in there, it only stands to reason that they may seem to creat a exaggerated treble sound.
I fully contend it is the other way around.
None of my modded gear sounds thin in the bass. But the mechanical isloation, and clocking circuits and etc., etc., on my digital gear are fully stabilized, so treble stridency from digital gear is not something I get any of. I work with a mechanical and acoustical noise control expert and we do some fun and strange stuff. The amount of noise contyrol required even in the simple mechanical domain is truly staggering,and very few -if any- companies or individuals actually do it right. |
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| Bernhard |
Mechanical noise ? microphonics ?
The first time I have ever seen mechanical decoupling was yesterday when I got a Tektronix plugin from the sixties, it contains something of which I do not know what it is, may be a double transistor or nuvistor, it is a type W plugin high gain differential comparator.
This thing is mounted on 4 rubber stands to prevent mechanical "noise".
I can post a pic if somebody wants.
Regarding the OSCONS I found a place to put some in.
7 TDA 1541 parellel :xeye: |
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| Bricolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bernhard
Mechanical noise ? microphonics ?
The first time I have ever seen mechanical decoupling was yesterday when I got a Tektronix plugin from the sixties, it contains something of which I do not know what it is, may be a double transistor or nuvistor, it is a type W plugin high gain differential comparator.
This thing is mounted on 4 rubber stands to prevent mechanical "noise".
I can post a pic if somebody wants.
Regarding the OSCONS I found a place to put some in.
7 TDA 1541 parellel :xeye: |
do you think that oscone will perform better there, than the film caps? |
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| Bernhard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bricolo
do you think that oscone will perform better there, than the film caps? |
Not for the 14 caps, but for the +5V and -5V supplies they are perfect.
Want some ? :D I make 90cent for you :D
220µF film caps are hard to find and very biiiigggg !!!!!
Maybe some small film cap parallel.
I plan the biggest DAC ever :devilr:
boards 100x160:
1x psu analog
1x psu digital
1x receiver / signalconditioner
7x tda1541
1x I/V / tube output stage
1x logic for on/off etc.
All that in a 19" frame. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Sounds like a C6W4 nuvistor tube. They are very microphonic. |
It quite likely is...A nuvistor isn't microphonic per se but when you use it as a MC headamp you're dealing with high amplification stages at µV levels.
If it looks like this then it is a nuvistor:
Cheers,;) |
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| Bernhard |
Yes this is it, but 2 pieces put in a plasik for thermocoupling I guess.
Any good for audio like DAC output stage ?
Bernhard |
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| jean-paul |
If you like the outputimpedance to be high they're good....
There are better suited pencil tubes out there.
Oops, I am starting to talk like a tube-afficionado :clown:
What I meant to say was to look at the thread Rbroer started on a discrete I/V stage for TDA1541A. |
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| Bernhard |
| I pulled one out from the rubber, it says RCA nuvistor G-39 or 6-39 |
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| jean-paul |
About MKL ( cellulose-acetate dieelectricum ) the document says:
optimal self healing capacity
high volume capacity
very high reliability
universal useable
Typical applications:
for use in aerospace/aeronautic applications.
for supplementation/complementation with electrolytic caps.
high reliability use in electronic circuits. |
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