| Lars Clausen |
In Denmark we now have super cheap DVD players in every supermarket. Prices are around dkk 500,00 (80 US$) for one that can play DVD/CD/CDRW/MP3/DTS/DivX/5.1 ch. analog + digital out etc. (everything). Even a karaoke function with 2 microphone inputs ..
:D
So i wondered if a machine like that could ever have potential as a hifi sound source.... I got one and took it apart.
To my great surpise i found that it contained the Wolfson Microelectronics WM8746 converter. It is a very good 24 bit 192 kHz converter. The analog stage was only one (SMD) opamp per 2 channels. So it was easy to upgrade, so after replacing the opamp to the LM6172 (about 5$) and the DC blocking caps to Black Gate NX Hi-Q now my analog stage was in good condition. I put in the LClock XO3 just to see how much sound can be squeezed out of an 80$ DVD player.
After waiting for like 30 seconds before the DVD player recognised that it had been fed a CD, the sound began to emerge. Amazing! Really good soundstage, deep and firm bass, and airy clear top. (First impressions).
Real fun project, and why spend 1000's on a high end CD player if you can live with the start delay, i think with a DVD like this you might be just as good off. Also probably even more tweaks can be done to it, and at this price, it is fun to play with.
Do you have these players in other countries out there? |
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| Lars Clausen |
Just another pic from this player.
I replaced the DC blocing caps to Black Gate NX Hi-Q, and the opamp to LM6172. The red wire is power for the ref. Clock It all took a couple of hours..... really simple. |
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| peranders |
Lars, in Sweden I have seen ads for 399 SEK! I wonder if we take away sales tax = 319 SEK. The store wants to earn something I suppose => 250 SEK, minus freight ? What's left?
250 SEK <=> 31 USD |
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| AMT-freak |
Lars, are those transistors to be seen in the second picture muting transistors? If yes, try removing them and putting in muting relais (shunting) instead. What about the power supply?
In Germany we have the same offers, I guess they are that cheap because they are based on computer DVD drive chipsets.
Btw, a shop pays sale tax only on the difference between buying and selling price ;) |
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| grataku |
| How did the $80 player sound out of the box before adding a $300 LCaudio clock? |
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| ronc |
Yea i have been looking at some cheap DVD players.As mainly a ME and not EE type i was wondering how the dig out converts to stereo sound as its a single plug?
thanks
ron |
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| grataku |
| It not only does stereo, it does 5 or more channels for home theather. Not being an EE I can only speculate that the information packets are labeled for what they are and where they should go and that the DAC system in the receiver knows how to handle that. ;) |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by AMT-freak
Btw, a shop pays sale tax only on the difference between buying and selling price ;) |
Not really, in reality (in Sweden anyway) only the end customer pays sales tax. Still how can they sell so cheap? |
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| Bas Horneman |
I have a Cyberhome AD 528 which has
3 * Wolfson WM 8720 DAC's
It does some audio things very well...they can be had for 99 euro..thought about buying another one and tweak that....as Lars suggested.
Indeed how do they do it for the money..I guess they just want a presence in the market... |
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| Nuuk |
Why does it take them 30 seconds to recognise a CD? And are all brands the same that way?
We have these sort of DVD players in the UK for about 37UKP (53 Euro/63USD). |
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| GregGC |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Why does it take them 30 seconds to recognise a CD? And are all brands the same that way?
We have these sort of DVD players in the UK for about 37UKP (53 Euro/63USD). |
Depends on the firmware of the DVD and with all the different standards, not all of them are as efficient at recognizing the media. |
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| abid_rehan |
| Once I went through your thread I went out to local market to find one such DVD player and not to my surprise got a busted one around Rs 1500/= thats about 25$ I opened it up and fount that mechanical along pickup lens was busted, I had an extra Toshiba DVD Drive and hooked it up with the player through standard IDE port provided on the motherboard, I put in a DVD and Wahlaa its working fine, not a bad DVD Player thats worth $ 25. |
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| shanemac |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lars Clausen
In Denmark we now have super cheap DVD players in every supermarket. Prices are around dkk 500,00 (80 US$) for one that can play DVD/CD/CDRW/MP3/DTS/DivX/5.1 ch. analog + digital out etc. (everything). Even a karaoke function with 2 microphone inputs ..
:D
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I just seen a Comercial on the TV the other night for an Apex DVD player for $29... Leads me to wonder where this pricing trend will bottom out...
next thing you know it'll be more to buy a DVD than the player... |
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| Raoul |
"ORANGE CITY, Fla. (Nov. 29) - A mob of shoppers rushing for a sale on DVD players trampled the first woman in line and knocked her unconscious as they scrambled for the shelves at a Wal-Mart Supercenter.
Patricia VanLester had her eye on a $29 DVD player, but when the siren blared at 6 a.m. Friday announcing the start to the post-Thanksgiving sale, the 41-year-old was knocked to the ground by the frenzy of shoppers behind her." |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | next thing you know it'll be more to buy a DVD than the player... |
May be you have just hit the nail on the head! You will only sell a lot of DVD's if most of the population have a DVD player so get them 'hooked' with a cheapie! Doesn't matter if they only last a year, or the quality isn't perfect as most people don't even think about quality. |
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| Circlotron |
| quote: | Originally posted by shanemac
next thing you know it'll be more to buy a DVD than the player... |
Like inkjet printers vs replacement cartridges.
Or game consoles vs games.
Or cellphones vs the bill. :bigeyes: |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | "ORANGE CITY, Fla. (Nov. 29) - A mob of shoppers rushing for a sale on DVD players trampled the first woman in line and knocked her unconscious as they scrambled for the shelves at a Wal-Mart Supercenter. |
Perhaps online shopping isn't so high risk after all! :D |
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| tool49 |
The funny thing about the Apex DVD player is that it can't handle a DVD! I bought one, just for fun, and returned it the same day. I just popped The Matrix in and as soon as there were gun shots, you could easily see the frame rate drop to 15-25 fps. This is really annoying! Fast action scenes were sort of split in half horizontally. The bottom half not getting refreshed by the processor because it took all of its processing power to do the top half... :whazzat:
I don’t know about the audio CD capabilities of this player though… Might be worth the $29 ;)
Sébastien |
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| ronc |
Very logical Nuuk. I wonder what the differences are between a lower priced DVD player and a higher one really are? I mean if its just mechanical then a cheap DVD player could bbecome a base for a higher end CD player with the proper tweeks.
ron |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | Very logical Nuuk. I wonder what the differences are between a lower priced DVD player and a higher one really are? I mean if its just mechanical then a cheap DVD player could bbecome a base for a higher end CD player with the proper tweeks. |
Absolutely right Ron. AFAIK - all top-end CD players are built from the basic models. I wasn't questioning the wisdom of buying them to tweak, rather the reason that they are currently being marketed so cheaply. |
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| tiroth |
| If you need progressive-scan output, there are huge differences between models. One with Faroudja's DCDi engine is probably the best bet. |
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| ronc |
I can state this, i had a good sony CD player that had additional damping a seperate P/S and a faster chip (no i didnt do the mods) and i really cant hear any difference between the sony and my current GE DVD player on CDs.I sold the sony.
ron |
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| sam9 |
It's not so surprising that DVD players can be had for under $80. Even ones producing excellent sound. This is a little hard for hard-core audiophiles to swallow, but remember they are little more than special purpose computers. Moore's Law has not been repealed yet!
As for the analog components, even their cost is driven down by high volume production - sell enough AD797's and they will start approaching TL071 prices. Ditto for BG and Xicon caps. |
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| Lars Clausen |
Sam9: interesting point of view. There is also the fact the CD's of any kind are being loaded with royalties to Sony and Philips, who invented the CD system back in the 70's and 80's. But still today a producer of a CD player must pay royalties, whereas anyone can produce a DVD player, there are no royalties to pay.
A comment on the quality of the player i was working on: The mechanical and component quality seems excellent, it even has a nice switched mode PSU - like any other DVD player - however the picture quality was not the best i have seen. But then what can you expect in that price range.....?
Anyway i would only argue to buy one of these guys for music reproduction (playback of CD's and music DVD's).
It is certainly to be considered a useable alternative to a pricy CD player. |
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| sam9 |
I bet it will also play DTS-CD's; not many ever made which is a shame. Also 24/96 CD's like those issued by www.classicrecords.com and DVD-Audio (probably only the DTS or DD tracks).
There is a small industry for CD and DVD player mods. The mods cost more than your player! Just the same, if there is any room for improvement (there may not be), I would imagine it to be in analog section down-stream from the DAC. |
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| mrfeedback |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lars Clausen
Just another pic from this player.
I replaced the DC blocing caps to Black Gate NX Hi-Q, and the opamp to LM6172. The red wire is power for the ref. Clock It all took a couple of hours..... really simple. |
I changed all the electros (psu secondary, decoder pcb, audio output pcb) to Hitano low esr types on exactly this model and got sonically quite outstanding results.
Those Wolfson DACs are good sounding indeed.
Grounding the crystal oscillator cans also improves sonics.
Eric. |
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| jean-paul |
Busy with Mustek 560 at the moment. Changing caps in the switched PSU to Pana FC does have a significant positive influence.
DAC chip is a DA1193, couldn't find a datasheet unfortunately, not even at the site of the manufacturer.
!!!! Advice for people who want to mod switched PSU's even when you only want to mod the secondary side of the PSU : PLEASE pull the powercord when the player is on to draw the last voltage out of the caps at the switching primaries !!!!! Those voltages are lethal !!! To be sure it is better to wait half an hour before you start the job. Even then pull the board out by the sides and measure the voltage at the caps when it is out. This is really a job for the experienced or professionals, leave it to them if you are unsure or if you are a novice. There is a risk involved not worth to be taken.
Better too safe than too sorry ... |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by tiroth
If you need progressive-scan output, there are huge differences between models. One with Faroudja's DCDi engine is probably the best bet. |
it depends on what display you have. I have a panasonic rp-62 (with a faroudja chip set tho. I am not sure if they are the same), hooked to a pioneer plasma tv which does its own video processing (including 3:2 pulldown).
The picture is slightly better with the panasonic in progressive mode. It seems to me that if the video feed can be in all digital, it makes more sense to let the display do all the work. |
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| elizard |
I got one of these el-cheapo ones from walmart (norcent brand .. never heard of em before!)
Got it for about $50 CAD ($35-$40 USD)
Sounds decent for CDs, but even if its a little scratched it has TONS of pops. Very annoying as sadly most of my cds are scratched :( (small incident with sand .. heh)
DVDs I can't vouch for since I only have a couple music DVDs, and no movies. |
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| Circlotron |
My Digitrex thing I got for AUD$99 at the end of last year has one disadvantage compared to a normal CD player. If the disc is out of balance it sometimes makes a rattling sound because it rotates at approximately 2000 rpm, not the 500 - 200 rpm like a normal player. Sounds great though.
Also, I recently tried out an MP3 disc in it and was quite surprised with the results. Not the absolutest highest of "fi", but plenty good enough for in the car etc. Actually, will these players cope with a variety of MP3 bitrates or even variable bitrate, or do they only work with one standard? I just copied the files off a front-of-pc-magazine CD so I don't know what the bitrate of them was. |
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| Lars Clausen |
I compared the sound of my 80$ model (from the start of this thread) with another well known 2000 US$ CD player, to find the level for sound quality. This 2000 $ machine is among the better options in this price range.
The (upgraded) Scansonic did not have quite the attack and precision of the 2000 $ player, but it surely had the musicality, and live atmosphere. Definition in the top frequencies was as good as the 2000 $ machine. Bass was a (tiny) bit boomy on the 80$ DVD player (around 280 $ with upgrade parts and all).
Maybe some mechanical damping would do the trick .. ? I thinll think there is some trail to explore on this one ..
Now i have my eye on another cheap DVD player (100 US$) with progressive scan.
http://www.prc-data.dk/ProduktFrame...duktid=32896286 |
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| JOE DIRT® |
DVD players arer known to play back music CD`s better because the transport and tracking is built to better specs than a regular CD player.
Its better to buy a cheap DVD player than a mid priced CD player....as I have tested quite a few.....the best one has been the panasonic so far in my opinion.
DIRT® |
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| uvodee |
a few dvd player factories around.....
Lasonic is one of them and I think Samsung is also amongst the 'happy few'
And Apex ofcourse:when they just started, they had models that contained software you could change from the screen menu, you could set the play area (usa, europe etc..etc so it would accept any world dvd format )
Lasonic is a story by itself, they have made stuff for other co's for many years now and some of it was so crappy, as soon as you unpacked it, it fell apart.
but their dvd products are another story it seems.
Mintek players (they make these) are pretty good, sturdy and have some nice software plus they are easy to accept/convert other dvd's than just #1
J-P |
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| Lars Clausen |
| A closer inspection of the 'CD acceptance delay' shows it is not 30 seconds, but rather 9-10 seconds. Not a problem..... |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by uvodee
a few dvd player factories around.....
And Apex ofcourse:
J-P |
Apex is really not a manufacturer but a market who sources from Chinese OEMs. |
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| elizard |
So the general consensus (although i'm sure its very widely open for debate!) is that its better to get a (for example) $1000 dvd player than a $1000 cd player?
I'm probably going to be in the market for a cd player sometime next yera, but if getting a dvd player for the same price is better quality, then i'd go for that any day! |
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| Lars Clausen |
My opinion on this matter is, that it's not so simple.
To get the best quality for the lowest price, i would say buy a cheap CD or DVD player, and upgrade the analog stage and clock.
And as this thread argues, you may get a DVD good for sound at very very low cost.
However you mat very well find a bad 1000 $ DVD (i know a couple of those), but also you can find a good 1000 $ CD player.
But i'd still go for a much cheaper CD or DVD, and then spend a couple 100 bucks upgrading it. This way you will definitely get a better result than any of the 1000 $ off the shelf players. |
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| Mikett |
The cheap DVD player I am impressed with is the KOSS unit at Costco for $80 CAD. It has progressive scan, is hackable, has karaoke and can shift between NTSC and PAL. The best is that it can handle low bit rate VBR VCDs that have APEX1500 and Pioneer 525 begging for mercy with tons of dropouts and stutter.
In my experience the DAC needs work and you can clearly hear the shortcomings. If you use the digital out and outboard DAC either separate or built in on a HT receiver, you can't go wrong. |
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| autoexec |
umm, arent all dvd players unlockable now?
i havent seen a dvd player sold for at least a year over here that DIDN'T give you instructions on how to unlock it
or are you talking about the hacking of the actual contents |
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| Mikett |
What happens is that you probably live in a country where multi-region players are sold.
Not so in North America. Here they still want you to pay the high prices for Region 1 DVDs.
Not all players in North America come with unlocking instructions, I venture to say the minority if at all. |
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| Optical |
It depends on where you buy the dvd player, different countries have different laws about zoning..
"Multi zone" is what you look for it you want a completely zone restriction free player, not dezoned or anything like that
Also, panasonic and technics dvd players (mostly) have identical circuit boards/hardware inside them if that is any help to anyone making a decision, id say those particular ones are pretty good too |
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| ofb |
| i always thought technics was just a brand by panasonic. are they actually separate in any way? |
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| JOE DIRT® |
| optical.....technics is panasonic fyi;) |
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| Lars Clausen |
They are both brand names of a japanese company called: the Matsushita Corporation.
Technics is the hifi brand, while
Panasonic is the consumer electronics brand. Meaning TV's DVD's Video's, even radio's but not in specific hifi sense. |
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| arniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lars Clausen
Sam9: interesting point of view. There is also the fact the CD's of any kind are being loaded with royalties to Sony and Philips, who invented the CD system back in the 70's and 80's. But still today a producer of a CD player must pay royalties, whereas anyone can produce a DVD player, there are no royalties to pay.
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If anything, you'll find that DVD players are loaded with even higher royalties as they not only have to contribute to the CD patentees, but also pay for an MPEG 2 licence (for the DVD part).
This is why the Chinese are developing their own video disk standard - it will save them USD5 per player.
The same situation applies with 3G telephone systems, they are developing their own standard in order to avoid paying Qualcom.
Arnie |
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| Morse |
Hi Ron;
>>>...Very logical Nuuk. I wonder what the differences are between a lower priced DVD player and a higher one really are?...<<<
Something to bear in mind is that the lowest cost electronics from "no-name" companies are often built of parts that were rejected en-masse from the "big names." Thus, if you open up a "fly-by-night" brand player, you may well find a Sony optical pick up unit, Philips transport, or Matsushita DAC board, all assembled in a mish-mash that may perform rather well. However, many of the parts used will be ones from lots with a highish rejet rate - thus the reliability may be a bit suspect.
Above the 'reject grade', most mass-fi products are built on common chassis, with the low end units lacking some of the 'tweaks' and features that make for a high end unit.
Then at the top of each manufacturer's line there will be a "flagship" in each major product category that is not related to the "lesser" products in any way (except the name), but which ARE usually the products reviewed by the mainstream consumer electronics press.
In general, this is much like the way that the US auto industry used to work - there'd be a handful of "race grade" cars that would be shown on the track so that consumers would feel better about buying a "regular" grade of auto from the same manufacturer.
One way of looking at the current DIY/tweaking phenomenon is that we are the modern "hotrodders" who either roll our own "electronic street rods" or take an "ordinary grade" product and work our magic to compete with the race built specials.
Hope I didn't put anyone to sleep; just wanted to put a little perspective on the industry, given the subject.
All the best,
Morse |
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| Lars Clausen |
Actually i think the cheap DVD players have been ahead of the brand names all along.
Low enders were the first to have digital zoom, then a year later you would find that function in brand players.
Brand playes often use low end chip sets inside, while the cheap DVD's produce in such a massive quantity that they get the price of the good chipsets down.
The transports i have seen in real low end DVD players so far have not been dropaouts from brand names like you claim, but actually appeared to have a better mechanical construction with metal supports, dual bearing motos etc. compared to 4 times more expensive brand name players made entirely out of plastic.
I am sorry i have to disagree with you on this one :) |
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| Morse |
Hi Lars;
>>>...I am sorry i have to disagree with you on this one...<<<
No problem Lars. God knows I make plenty of mistakes! :) It may be different where you are, but to the best of my knowledge I did describe the mainstream A/V makers and their operations in the US market accurately. Any mistakes made were in good faith.
>>>...Low enders were the first to have digital zoom, then a year later you would find that function in brand players...<<<
One thing that may be skewing the picture here (pardon the pun) is the release scheduling of new equipment. In Japan the equipment is at least a couple of years ahead of the US - in some case more than that (I saw cellphones with built in cameras in Japan a good 3 years before they were first introduced in the US, for example). It's similar with home A/V equipment.
Could it be that the "fly by nighters" are using current reject parts without regard to the release schedules of the big names? Thus, a feature that appears "ahead" of the brand name makers could be something they've had for 2 or more years - but not in your country.
Incidentally, later this month I'm scheduled to return to Japan and am looking forward to seeing all the latest in new electronics. It doesn't sound like I'll be able to make it to Akihabara though.... :(
All the best,
Morse |
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| Tor M |
Hi!
Opened up my 1.5 year old ultra cheap United dvd player today.
Haven`t bothered before this treat, didn`t think there were hope for it.;)
I only use it for film anyway. I don`t bother much about picture or sound quality when I wach movies, and it sound lousy compared with my modified Pioneer PDS 707.
But I miss a good sounding dvd player to wach music dvds.
Inside I found a cs4340-ks dac, and one c4558 opamp that might be for the analog output. Haven`t studied the pcb traces yet.
Anyone know anything about the quality of this cirrus dac?
Found some information on some common ultracheap dvd players on this site:
http://www.leien.info/euroline/
Mine is almost identical to the United 3551 on that site.
My pcb is a little bit different from the picture. I have a differend video dac (cs4955) and a different flash memory. |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by Tor M
My pcb is a little bit different from the picture. I have a differend video dac (cs4955) and a different flash memory. |
can someone find those "reject" parts for me? :)
Morse, if you follow the electronics industry, you will know that the same manufacturers of low-end dvd players will also OEM for big name high-enders (like for example Sony or Panasonic). and some of the IC companies in the state benefit from their large volume. I have never heard of the "reject" parts: it could simply be the case that it is too expensive to buy rejects than normal grade parts as at today's yield, rejects are far and in between. so the cost of collecting those rejects and packaging them for resale far outweighs the cost of simply throwing them out. |
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| JCoffey |
I bought a Pioneer 434 about 5 years ago, because of reading the reviews on the quality. That has been the most reliable piece of equipment I've ever owned. 4 interstate moves, never been cleaned, and it still is rock solid. Best $400 I ever spent. (Bought it at Harvey's, in NYC)
But, who doesnt want to improve something? Has anyone worked with these before? Any options to upgrade them? |
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| UrSv |
| I think the concept of reject parts being used for cheap things is an Urban Legend if there ever was one. It would, as millwood points out, probably be MUCH more expensive to build from rejects rather than stock parts. I would guess that when a factory builds 500.000 DVD players they will buy those components in bulk rather than search for different rejects and change the PCBs and cicuits all the time. |
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| Morse |
Hi millwood;
Sorry, didn't mean to stir a controversy! Perhaps I should have used the phrase "lower graded parts" instead of rejects.
My understanding has been that tests are not of individual parts, but rather of samples from production lots at the point of manufacture, prior to shipment.
The way it was described to me, let's say you're making laser OPU's and you find that a production lot of quite a few thousands of the things just tested a little low in the useable output (i.e intensity for voltage applied - this will affect lifespan, since as the lasers age they require more voltage to produce a given intensity and this is automatically taken care of internally - but there's only so much voltage they can take before they fail - if there's not enough adjustability left then they will not give the full number of hours of required lifespan). You don't have to separately package 'em up - they're already made and bulk packed. Those are the sorts of parts I was thinking of when typing. There are also parts over-runs of first grade parts to consider. If I'm mistaken, then by all means, my apologies.
As far as Panasonic and Sony being "high end", that's honestly the first time I've ever heard either name called that! Good mainstream electronics brands to be sure, but high end? You're making me feel better about my own audio kit, since I've never been able to afford the likes of Meridian, Conrad Johnson, and Wilson.....
All the best,
Morse |
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| Lyra |
I've got one of this crappy players....and it stinks!!!.... audiorelated anyway. Have not tried to mod. it but i really dont think it is hope for any reasonnally audio-ouput from this player. To be honest, I think it's the least HiFi i have ever tried.
The sound is thin, hard, harsh and with a totally lack of reasonable bass.
:att'n: BUT!.... I have noticed that this player have about 30VDC !! on the output terminals ....and 230VAC......when not connected..... :att'n:
There are definite something wrong with this unit, and the warranty is gone, so I havent bothered trying to fix it, but it works as a movie-player with only SCART mounted. :-/
P |
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| 2Bak |
Please continue to share your experiences and modifications with us, Lars...
I don't have a cd-player anymore, and I use my Panasonic DVD RV60 for audio. I don't use the build-in processor and DA converter, my preamp takes care of this (coxial out), so I wouldn't need to do something with the Analogue part...
Anyone tweaked this player?
How do I proceed? Where should I put my effort if I use digital out only?
PS: I also have a Philips DVD 756 (reads cd-r and is multi regional which the Pana cannot handle). Is this machine a better choise for upgrade?
Many questions, I'm sorry...
regards Jan |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lyra
I've got one of this crappy players....and it stinks!!!.... audiorelated anyway. Have not tried to mod. it but i really dont think it is hope for any reasonnally audio-ouput from this player. To be honest, I think it's the least HiFi i have ever tried.
The sound is thin, hard, harsh and with a totally lack of reasonable bass.
:att'n: BUT!.... I have noticed that this player have about 30VDC !! on the output terminals ....and 230VAC......when not connected..... :att'n:
There are definite something wrong with this unit, and the warranty is gone, so I havent bothered trying to fix it, but it works as a movie-player with only SCART mounted. :-/
P |
Never said it was HiFi ;) I think your example should have the qualification "defect".
Can't follow you on this one:
| quote: | | the warranty is gone, so I havent bothered trying to fix it, |
Shouldn't this be the opposite ? |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by Morse
As far as Panasonic and Sony being "high end", that's honestly the first time I've ever heard either name called that! |
they are "high-end" in this particular context.
| quote: | Originally posted by Morse
You're making me feel better about my own audio kit, since I've never been able to afford the likes of Meridian, Conrad Johnson, and Wilson.....
Morse |
the Meridians and Conrad Johnsons and Wilsons of the world can also be low-end vis-a-vis certain other brands.
Kind of like BMW is high-end to Toyota but certainly is low-end to Ferraris, etc.
all in relative terms. |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | | Kind of like BMW is high-end to Toyota but certainly is low-end to Ferraris, etc. |
What's high end given the fact that Toyota makes the most reliable cars in the world ( year after year ) according to statistics ? |
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| Morse |
Hi Millwood;
>>>...the Meridians and Conrad Johnsons and Wilsons of the world can also be low-end vis-a-vis certain other brands...<<<
You're a braver man than I, if you're willing to ever tell the proud owner of a pair of $20,000 Wilson Watt Puppies that they're low end! :)
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the definitions of terms, since you're using a sliding scale based on price, whereas my definitions are based more on the corporate structure and marketing strategy that seeks the business of the "high end" or "mainstream" consumer. FWIW, here is a short summary of how I use the terms.
"High end" signifies a product that aims at a market segment that seeks a "better" product than the mainstream consumer is willing to pay for - i.e. thick, brushed aluminium faceplates, massive chassis and heat sinks, etc. Often they're the product of smaller companies that may end up sourcing quite a few parts from the mainstream guys - particularly things like DVD drives. Price competition sometimes operates in reverse with the high end consumer, with the belief being that if it's not expensive, it's no good. This unspoken assumption that price equals quality is the source of more than one bit of audio snake oil.....
"Mainstream" A/V in these terms would be someone like Sony, Panasonic, Philips, Harmon Kardon, etc. In many ways the thing that distinguishes the mainstream guys from the high end is the sheer size of their company - Matsushita, maker of Panasonic is one of the biggest OEM electronics makers in the world. The size of the company and the value of the name for marketing purposes make it risky to dump junk on the market, but at the same time, price competition is a big part of their business model, so they always have to balance cost versus performance. In many ways, I see the mainstream guys as trying to offer the biggest perceived bang for the buck, while still offering a product that's reliable enough not to come back to haunt them (anyone else remember the flap over the Panasonic A110, with respect to early failures back in mid '98 and '99?).
The "no-name" companies are those that pop up and disappear rapidly - here it's pretty common to see products appear from companies that one has never heard of - and in 2 or 3 years, you'll never find them again. Their products may be excellent or they may be junk - but since there's no "name recognition" attached to them, if they make a product with poor durability then there's no downside to their business model. With them, price competition is everything.
Just thought I'd clarify my use of the terms since there seemed to be some confusion....sorry for the ramble!
All the best,
Morse |
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| Lars Clausen |
When you look inside Audio equipment, you will often find that the manufacturer (to reuse the automobile analogy) took the guts from a 'Datsun', and simply put it inside a 'Ferrari' box.
Because they count on customers to not recognize sound quality, but only the brand name.
So i think saying:
Brand is quality
is very blurred in the audio field.
I have often seen 2-3000 $ CD players from small brands contain exactly the same inners as 3-400$ models from bigger brands. |
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| Lyra |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
Can't follow you on this one:
Shouldn't this be the opposite ? |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lyra
There are definite something wrong with this unit, and the warranty is gone, so I havent bothered trying to fix it.....
P |
What I ment was that if the warranty had still been good, I would probably sent it to the store I bought it for fix, but now with no warranty, i simply don't bother. It works quite fine as a "movie-box" though :smash: |
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| Morse |
Hi Lars;
>>>...the manufacturer...took the guts from a 'Datsun', and simply put it inside a 'Ferrari' box...<<<
Absolute agreement - that's what I was getting at with: "...end up sourcing quite a few parts from the mainstream guys - particularly things like DVD drives. Price competition sometimes operates in reverse with the high end consumer, with the belief being that if it's not expensive, it's no good..."
In the US, the practice you're referring to is called "badging," particularly in it's most extreme form - wherein the entire unit is made by an OEM that just "badges" it with the customer's name.
Sorry for being so wordy.
Anyway, the thing that got me interested in this thread is that the best I can afford is my 2-1/2 year old Sony DVD.
My first tweak on the Sony was a modest one - packing the timing crystal with rope caulk. The result was a much cleaner midrange that cured problems I'd attributed to other components in my system! The second mod was to pack the brace that holds the clamp assembly with rope caulk, and here the results were quite useful - a nasty upper midrange resonance I'd attributed to room acoustics was disposed of.
The only other DVD tweaks are just power line filtering - the mains cord now sports 3 large ferrite chokes in addition to the internal one, and I'm using a variation of Jon Risch's isolation filter to clean up incoming power line grunge.
Electronic tweaks are upcoming, but I'd really like to see what sorts of surgery everyone else is trying before I fire up the Weller and make some solder fumes. With that in mind:
1. Anyone tried PS tweaks like snubbing the rectifiers?
2. DAC tweaks, like adding capacitance to the decoupling caps? Or perhaps better quality decoupling caps, like Nichicon Muse or BG's?
3. Anyone make the leap to battery power and sidestep AC grunge completely? If so, how's it working out for you?
4. Anything else? Maybe a better audio stage or opamp upgrade?
All the best,
Morse |
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| Morse |
Hi Lyra;
>>>...BUT!.... I have noticed that this player have about 30VDC !! on the output terminals ....and 230VAC......when not connected...<<<
*YIKES*! First off, I'd guess that you should check the output caps - are there even any fitted?
That 230VAC gives me the willies, though - I don't know what to think of it....perhaps the maker really cheaped out on the grounding, and knowing there could be significant ACV on the signal out without a load deleted the caps. Or maybe they self destructed some time ago and the 230VAC is what killed 'em. Polarised caps are notoriously shy about having significant ACV applied.....
Good luck and all the best,
Morse |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
What's high end given the fact that Toyota makes the most reliable cars in the world ( year after year ) according to statistics ? |
you are right if you define high-end as reliability only.
To me, high-end may have other meanings, like quality, performance (handling in particular for me), and prestige, to name a few. Toyota executives certainly didn't think the Toyota name was prestigious or high-end enough. Otherwise, they wouldn't have come out with Lexus. The same for Nissan (Infiniti), Honda (Acura), Mazda (the still-born Amati), VW (Audi), and other examples. But you are certain free in defining your own "high-end". |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by Morse
You're a braver man than I, if you're willing to ever tell the proud owner of a pair of $20,000 Wilson Watt Puppies that they're low end! :) |
I keep telling myself that I drive low-end cars (an A6 and a 3-series), for exactly the same reason.
| quote: | Originally posted by Morse
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the definitions of terms, since you're using a sliding scale based on price, |
it is not based on price, but on the context in which the discussion is framed. If we are all talking about Escorts or Focuses of the world, a 330 is certain a high-end car. But if we are talking about 911s or Corvettes, the BMW certain isn't.
| quote: | Originally posted by Morse
The "no-name" companies are those that pop up and disappear rapidly |
I don't know if they do disappear rapidly. Some of them have been in the business a long time, OEMing for the brand names. We just didn't know or notice them. It is their strategy: they are good at manufacturing and not so good at branding and marketing. You will find similar things in pretty much any business, including automotives. |
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| ronc |
Has anybody ever read Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Matinence(sp)?The author goes insane trying to find
a definition of quality.
In any current mfg of just about anything , SPC (stastical quality control) is involved.The concept was developed by a guy named Demming who was rejected by american mfgs. but was embraced by the japanese.This led to the early 80s rise of the japanese in consumer products.
The major difference in quality (as far as i have observed) comes to the established performance parameters(tolerences) of either individual components or assys.
ron |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by ron clarke
The author goes insane trying to find
a definition of quality.
ron |
It doesn't surprise me. Quality can mean different things, tho. most people associate 'variances' with low quality (in either spc or 6-sigma sense).
to me, it can be much broader. The plasticy interior of some cars, for example, isn't 'quality'. other examples would include the large (but consistent) gaps on some SUVs, the distributors (or how they ar eengineered into those engines) on some Mustangs, rubber fuel lines on 300ZXTT and RX7TT, the I-drive in the 7-series BMW, or the ugly looking exterior of my A6.
Again, we are such a diverse group of people and our "definition" will be non-surprisingly diverse as well. |
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| Morse |
Hi Ron;
It's not surprising that the concepts you mention would be embraced in Japan, given the quality consciousness of the culture, and desire for perfection. Valves manufactured there in the '60's were well known for the extremely good vacuum maintained.
Hi millwood;
Hmmm, I see what you mean by diverse outlooks - I tend to look at the entire industry rather than any subsector of it. That way I don't have to decide who belongs in each subsector, and only have to look at their marketing strategy and product type to decide where they fit in the continuum from "transients" (I'll admit that "fly by night" was a poor choice of words due to emotional loading in the phrase) to "high end." It's important to distinguish between marketing names and manufacturer's too - if you see the badge "RCA", "Proscan", or "GE" , guess what - they're all made by the same company, Thompson Consumer Electric. The different brand names just represent the different price points that make up their niche in the mainstream market. And there's a certain amount of interaction, even among unrelated companies; IIRC Hitachi was supplying some of the parts for RCA's current projection sets.
BTW, here at least I have seen companies that appear, dump junk on the market, then truly do disappear (presumably before too many warranty complaints come in). For example, Lyra's DVD player is certainly not representative of a well functioning product, but it would take some investigation to determine if the maker is still in business under that corporate identity or if they've "disbanded" and arisen anew under another name.
This is decidedly not the same thing as having some OEM hard drive maker decide to go direct marketing for a while, or a company that typically caters to the Asian market decide to try it's hand in the west (heck, the best TV I ever owned was a Sampo from Taiwan - it worked flawlessly for 25 years - but how many western consumers have ever heard of "Sampo"!).
Good luck with your A6 and 3-series. I'm just happy to have a motorcar that starts most mornings! :) At least until I can move to where I won't need one of the things......
All the best,
Morse |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by Morse
how many western consumers have ever heard of "Sampo"!). |
they will hear more about Sampo if they are into large displays like plasma.
| quote: | Originally posted by Morse
Good luck with your A6 and 3-series. |
that A6 gives me more troubles than any car I have owned in the past, domestic and imports. |
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| salas |
Hello,
Some friends maintain that Sony PS1 (especially with external line PSU, no tweaks) makes for an excellent CDPlayer. Havent listened to one. Anyone had the experience? |
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| carlosfm |
That's what you guys are doing buying there crappy-cheapy chinese DVD players.
Lars, DVD players DO PAY ROYALTIES.
But not these chinese cheap ones.
Unfortunately, companies like Dolby, DTS, etc. are robbed every day with these "dont't-know-where-they-make-it" brands.
I've seen new DVD players for sell at 49 Euros.:eek:
They are made on those chinese or far east factories where people get 1$ for a day work and have no rights, no social security, no nothing.
Anyway, we're talking **** here.
Musteks were sold and returned to a store I know every day.
They stopped selling it.
And, guys...
With more and more copy-protected CDs these days, you'll have plenty of trouble in using one of these DVD players for reading your music CDs.:clown:
:angel: |
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| Rob M |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
Lars, DVD players DO PAY ROYALTIES.
But not these chinese cheap ones. |
You sure about that?
http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/May/32362.htm
| quote: |
They are made on those chinese or far east factories where people get 1$ for a day work and have no rights, no social security, no nothing.
|
But that's true for most DVD players, not just the super cheap ones, and all DVD players will at least have some parts made in China. |
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| Lars Clausen |
carlosfm: thanks for putting that new spin on our discussion ..
1-2 $ a day is not so unusual for a salary in China, at least it wasn't the last time i was there (1999).
But do you want to stop people from buying chinese products alltogether? I mean stereo's, firecrackers, ceramics, glassware, and any other type of product?
Surely there will be cases like you mention where the quality of a product is ****, but you can also find examples of the opposite.
Can you enlighten me with the informations you have about DVD royalties? Who owns the rights to the DVD system?
(Except the independent used technologies like Dolby, DTS etc.). |
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| Lars Clausen |
OK i got it from Rob M's link. Thanks!
Every day learn something new ... |
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| Bas Horneman |
Eating meat keeps people elsewhere hungry everyday.
80% of all maize and grain goes towards feeding cattle and other animals we eat... (US Department of agriculture stats) of which only 10% of nutrients is absorbed by the animal the rest is crapped out..so if we stopped eating meat..all the people in the world could be fed.
I still eat meat..does that make me a mass murderer?
Guess it does..
Everything we do everyday perpetuates misery...because we honestly don't really care about what happens in the rest of the world...
So let's get back to DVD players...
Cheers,
Bas |
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| dhaen |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
[They are made on those chinese or far east factories where people get 1$ for a day work and have no rights, no social security, no nothing.
snip.. |
We live in a world economy, like it or not. That's a dollar they wouldn't get if no one bought it. For those workers it's the first rung of a long steep ladder they have to climb. People are exploited in the UK, and I'm sure in Portugal too. The exploitation is a local problem, that can only be sorted out locally. |
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| chris ma |
If there were no Model T availiable for the masses, living standard would only improved for the rich and powerful.
Chris
Oops sorry I meant to talk about cheap DVD players |
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| carlosfm |
Lars, the CD patent expired last year, so no more royalties for Philips and Sony.
That's why they made the SACD format.;)
The several patented techologies inside a DVD player do pay royalties.
And the DVD players have to show some logos on the front panel, that's not to be more pretty.
Anyway, I heard some time ago that some "obscure" OEM far-eastern companies don't pay royalties.
I know that there's exploitation, hungry, mysery everywhere.
But I simply don't like it, sorry.
And I don't like **** things, so weak that a push of a button may crack it.
I don't have anything against chinese products, after all they also have very good ones, even high-end.
But the difference in quality in ALL the aspects between a cheapy-crappy chinese DVD and the cheapest DVD from some major brands can be huge.
Of ourse you have to pay a little more money.
But it pays.
I know a guy that bought a Mustek DVD and it broke 3 times in the warranty period.
The store always gave him a new one (they new it was pure ****).
At the third time the warranty was finishing and the guy went to the store to receive his money back.
They gave the money to him.
Some weeks later they didn't sell Mustek anymore.
It seams that he wasn't the only one with problems.
Guys, do you have the time and the patience for this?
I don't.
Better spend a little more money and sleep in peace.:angel: |
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| ronc |
There is not a general consumer TV set,DVD, CD player ,tennis shoe ect ect made in america today.
When we went away from the mfg. end of the economy and went to the info economy there left a gap in consumer producs.The chinese just filled that gap.We allowed it to happen not them.
I remember when you walked into a walmart and saw AMERICAN MADE banners hung all over, have you seen any lately?.
I am sitting here listening to a GE dvd player(made in mexico)thru a gainclone LM3875T (made where?) and fostex horns (which i made but the drivers came from japan).
So i am to blame along with the rest of the crowd, but exactly what were my options?
ron |
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| chris ma |
| I do not see how brand name companies would enforce minimum pay to their workers. In fact the sole reason to set up factories in China is to save cost , labour cost. Buy a Sony product that made in China may make me a bad person too.. |
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| carlosfm |
Mostly you american guys may remember that NIKE was much sensured some years ago.
They even had to change their logo.
Their factories (in Pakistan, I think) employed children, and even the older people earned much less money than the minimum established there.
I don't blame manufacturers for making their products abroad, but please respect the laws of those countries, pay the minimum or above it, and pay the taxes.
Ok, enough of this.
Let's talk about "high-end":eek: cheappy-crappy:D DVDs.:dodgy:
BTW, I'm a music lover.
For films, I use my son's Sony PS2.:D
It sounds MUCH better than MOST cheap DVDs, chinese or not, IMHO. |
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| ronc |
I believe there is an applicaion for the "cheepie crappy" dvd players in audio.Like anything a design can be improved and my question is what are the electronic improvements that can be made as the mechanical is an easy one to improve?
ron |
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| carlosfm |
ron, the mechanical part is easy to improve?
You're not talking about the transport are you?
That's the most unreliable thing on those DVD players.:D
Believe it or not.
I wouldn't definitely spend my hard-earned money in making mods on such a cheap but unreliable device.
My point is, since the beginning, that it's not a wise move to spend 250 Euros tweaking an 80 Euros DVD.
This thread is about trying to put a Porsche motor on a FIAT.:clown: |
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| ronc |
Well i am more of an ME type than EE type.I was at one time very interesed in using a CD-Rom type reader as a transport but here were so many problems with my understanding of the elecronics
that i gave up. So i am looking for now is a modern day transport that i can wire into something like Scott Nixions chip DAC.It would be nice to have all the LED or other readouts and remote control and such that the CD reader dosent have.
ron |
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| shanemac |
| quote: | Originally posted by ron clarke
So i am to blame along with the rest of the crowd, but exactly what were my options?
ron |
Exactly - it us as consumers of 85% of the worlds resources that make the decisions about the quality of products we purchase - When 500 people purchase a $29 DVD player and 1 person buys a $1000 DVD player that sends a message to the companies NOT making a el cheepo' version of their product. It spirals out of control until we have no choices but **** and high end... it's not that Chinese make inferior products - people are capable of making high quality anywhere - Germany/Japan/Mexico/Canada/US... it's the almighty dollar and the American Economy (and to some extent Europe) that drives this trend towards inferior product production - "build it as cheep as possible and put it on a Wal-Mart shelf" and it will sell like hot cakes - Some people might even get hurt. At this point and time there is really no way to avoid this pricing trend - and believe me it's not a good thing - just wait until that Heart-Lung machine is build in south east Asia with the cheapest parts possible and sold against the $1,000,000 American made version ...but of course it's "just as good" ...But I certainly wouldn’t'
t want to use one.
I'm all for a free market - where you have the right and choice to purchase whatever consumer goods you wish - it's just us-the people of North America/Eurpoe that make the crappy choices and buy the cheapest item we can - Why -
here's my theory :
Post WWII there was a trend to buy American Made products to Support the economy - and Americans were proud of the consumer goods that they produced and invented - Heck I'll bet there's not a Consumer product out there that does not have it's beginnings in the US (or very few) DVD players included. ...how come none are produced in the US ...Labor Cost - which directly relates to Price... (ask Philip Knight & Michael Moore about this one). ( interesting read )
...back to post WWII, Mom was at home raising kids, Dad was at work - People didn't have a LOT of money but the average family could afford a decent home and pay the bills and put food on the table - and put a little away for retirement. ...enter the Women’s Movement ...don't get me wrong - I'm all for Women working - that's not my point - my point is that now we move into a dual income economy where you would think things would be easier on the household income - but not so - because the economy shifted in line with the dual income pricing costs for EVERYTHING went up - Cars are a perfect example - look at the price of a new car in relation to the Average annual Salary in the mid 60's... vs. the price of a new car compared to today's Salary... big difference. ...So now we're stuck with a dual income economic pricing strategy that leaves most of us with very little disposable income - Enter the $29 DVD player.
just my 2 cents.... |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by shanemac
just wait until that Heart-Lung machine is build in south east Asia with the cheapest parts possible and sold against the $1,000,000 American made version ...but of course it's "just as good" ... |
I don't think you have established that machines made there use "inferior" parts.
What you will find is that they use the same parts as used in the states (or everywhere else in the world). the savings, as someone had pointed out, come mostly from labor and regulatory costs.
I just came back from China (a month ago), doing diligence on two US companies that have sizable operations there. the US employees are paid 30-40 dollas an hour while their Chinese counterparts 80 cents to 1.4 dollars an hour. as an investor, I cannot simply ignore that and hope I can still make favorable returns for my shareholders.
it boils down what games you want to play. The US used to be an emerging country in the sense that it is more productive and innovative than others. We knocked down doors, sometimes with our cannons, to trade with other countries. Now, the situation is reverse: we are setting barriers to prevent free trade with others. and some people are supportive of it.
Those people need to look no further than ex-world powers (the UK being the latest), how they reacted to challenges and where they ended up.
We have no choice but to figure out a way to be competitive and innovative so people will continue to buy from us. The borrowing-for-consumption that the general public here is so fond of has got to stop and we got to invest in ourselves and in our economy (not in the sense of protectionism or isolationism).
BTW, the trans-pacif flights used to be full of Japanese buying American properties. Now it is full of American businessmen sourcing from China. |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
But not these chinese cheap ones. |
they didn't but they do now. The consortium was pretty admant about it in the last couple of years as China emerged as the number 1 dvd maker in the world.
That is the primary motivation for the Chinese's promoting of EVD, an enhanced version of DVD that owes no IP rights to the consortium.
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
They are made on those chinese or far east factories where people get 1$ for a day work and have no rights, no social security, no nothing. |
that's not entirely true. $1/hour is more like the median pay rate. Yes, they do have retirement benefits and unemployment benefits, low-cost health care, unions, and an assortment of others. Keep in your mind that that's a country with 500 million workers but 150 million of them un- or under-employeed.
Plus, cost and standards of living is quite low there so $1 get you very very far: 50 cents will get you a very good lunch for example. |
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| shanemac |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
I don't think you have established that machines made there use "inferior" parts.
What you will find is that they use the same parts as used in the states (or everywhere else in the world). the savings, as someone had pointed out, come mostly from labor and regulatory costs.
|
Thanks for your well thopuht out reply ...
It was not my intent to establish that inferior parts are or would be used - just seeing how other electronic devices of inferior design (not parts) have operated - I wouldn't want to put my life on that line... |
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| Morse |
Hi guys;
Interesting direction this thread has taken!
>>>...Buy a Sony product that made in China may make me a bad person too...<<<
Just for general information purposes, some Sonys are still made at the Tokyo plant (last time I checked anyway), and most all Panasonics are still made in Osaka. However, Sony (like Yamaha and NAD) has opened a large manufacturing concern in Malaysia, where their lower to middle end machines are made. Interestingly, an inspection of my Sony did not reveal any products with Chinese markings or OEMs, but did reveal a smattering of South Korean parts via Samsung.
Thus if you want to boycott Chinese products as a protest against their labour and environmental policies, you have some more information with which to work. Mind you, I'm neither condemning boycotts nor praising them - just trying to set the record straight! :)
All the best,
Morse |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
that's not entirely true. $1/hour is more like the median pay rate. Yes, they do have retirement benefits and unemployment benefits, low-cost health care, unions, and an assortment of others. Keep in your mind that that's a country with 500 million workers but 150 million of them un- or under-employeed.
Plus, cost and standards of living is quite low there so $1 get you very very far: 50 cents will get you a very good lunch for example. |
There was an interesting TV program a while ago about all
these companies moving their productions to China. (The wife
of one of my cousins lost her job for this reason, by the way.
She had to take a job at local slaughterhouse instead,
taking out the intestines of cattle throught their rectum. She
clearly preferred her previous job to assemble mobile phones
for Ericsoon, although that probably wasn't very fun either.)
Howver, one interesting thing that came up in the program
was that although the working conditions and salaries in China are quite bad to what we
are used to, the companies have problems with the employess
wanting to work more overtime than the comapnies can make
use of, and if they are not allowed this extra overtime they often
quit and go to other companies. True, though, that with higher
salaries they would possibly not demand to work overtime and
get a better life quality. |
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| shanemac |
| quote: | Originally posted by Christer
There was an interesting TV program a while ago about all
these companies moving their productions to China. (The wife
of one of my cousins lost her job for this reason, by the way.
She had to take a job at local slaughterhouse instead,
taking out the intestines of cattle throught their rectum. She
clearly preferred her previous job to assemble mobile phones
for Ericsoon, although that probably wasn't very fun either.)
Howver, one interesting thing that came up in the program
was that although the working conditions and salaries in China are quite bad to what we
are used to, the companies have problems with the employess
wanting to work more overtime than the comapnies can make
use of, and if they are not allowed this extra overtime they often
quit and go to other companies. True, though, that with higher
salaries they would possibly not demand to work overtime and
get a better life quality. |
Great post - there is always two sides to every story... I'm just waiting for the day the students at ITT Tech take over my job remotely. ... :apathic: |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by shanemac
I'm just waiting for the day the students at ITT Tech take over my job remotely. ... :apathic: |
there is a piece in the latest Fortune about exactly that. Except that it is about India taking high-tech jobs and customer services jobs away from America.
It will happen, sooner or later, as long as we refuse to face the problem right on and look into ourselves to find a solution. Going to isolationism didn't work and will never work. |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
there is a piece in the latest Fortune about exactly that. Except that it is about India taking high-tech jobs and customer services jobs away from America.
It will happen, sooner or later, as long as we refuse to face the problem right on and look into ourselves to find a solution. Going to isolationism didn't work and will never work. |
I heard that Swissair mover their booking office to India a few
years ago. Of course they went bancrupt a while ago, but
those things were probably not correlated. It also seems some
progamming companies just write design specs and send them
to India for the programmers there to do the job. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | It also seems some progamming companies just write design specs and send them to India for the programmers there to do the job. |
Because they're very good at it, Latka.
And being a little cheaper than the rest of us helps too, I reckon?
Cheers at 1$ a day?;)
Or are we all going to be out of a job sooner or later?
Cheers, ;) |
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| Morse |
Hi Frank;
No offence intended at all, but I must respectfully disagree with:
(w/respect to programming jobs fleeing to India):
>>>...Because they're very good at it, Latka. And being a little cheaper than the rest of us helps too, I reckon?...<<<
Not long ago I saw a cost analysis that showed that at the end of the day, it was not any cheaper to go with an Indian concern than a US one, due to hidden costs involved in debugging the product - there are even US companies popping up that specialise in fixing "buggy" code from cut-rate companies. Unfortunately it's a case of lower up-front cost vs total long term costs (including hidden costs in terms of lost productivity and repairs to buggy code) - and too often the bean counters only care about the up-front price tag. My apologies for being a little thin skinned on that, but as a (former) programmer, it hits close to home! :)
As far as Chinese products undercutting US ones, that may not be the case much longer - the Yuan has been kept artificially devalued (according to both the Japanese and western business press), keeping their goods artificially cheap, and limiting the ability of the hoped for Chinese consumer economy to buy western goods. It's expected by many that with the nosedive in the value of the USD (due to the mass flight from investments in the dollar), that the Yuan will have to be permitted to float up to a free market value and suddenly the cost differential between a western product and a Chinese one will not be so very great after all.
One area though, where the Chinese will continue to hold an edge over Japan and the west, is environmental. Without pricey pollution laws to which their industries must adhere, the cost of manufacturing will always be artificially lower there than in a country with laws regulating pollution. A solution to that would be in the form of a "pollution tariff" on products from countries without environmental controls on manufacturing, to level the playing field.
To go back on topic, it's sort of like buying the cheapest no-name DVD player available (of dubious quality) and spending twice the purchase price putting it's problems to right - better to just buy a better one (NOT some gold plate 'audiophile' model, but a solid performer from a reputable concern with a track record for reasonable reliability and customer service) in the first place and save the hassles, but what do I know?.... Still, once reliable operation is assured, it's very possible to tweak a very modest mainstream player (maybe "super cheap yet reliable" would be a better description for the ideal?) into pretty darn good performance. Those relatively trivial chassis damping and RF tweaks I mentioned previously have really improved my whole system's performance. Now I just need to get some Elna Cerafines or BG's and replace the audio output caps.....
All the best and good luck on all your projects!
Morse |
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| Mikett |
Hey I thought this was about DVD players. Heck everyone's having fun so I'm going to join.
It's very interesting how all the experts were touting free trade for over twenty years and you could see the writing on the wall as to the effects and the transitory period towards the end game. The key problem with economic theory and free trade is that economists hardly understand dynamic systems and transition. So their touting of the eventual result while correct does not consider what it would take.
Economic theory expects perfect capitalism which is truly raw and cold and MEAN. The shift of jobs to other places requires in theory that some North American workers pack up and go there to work. Anyone see that happening to any large degree? Furthermore, how does economic theory deal with "regulated" services such as medicine, law etc. Can't.... I'm afraid. Can you see medical professions allowing chinese doctors to come to the US to work thereby reducing medical costs?.........Hah. That's true capitalism my friend. Health care costs would come down. Wages need not be so high. Regulated professions are keeping their mouth SHUT about trade cause they have the most to lose.
The poor worker who is not rich is going to take the brunt of this transition.
The economic theory that is touted that isolation and protectionism cannot work has as many flaws as the other paradigm. The issue is that the people who will benefit from free trade wants this to occur so that they better themselves. The poor worker is in no position to change these affairs. Protectionism did not work because the worker in an area that was protected could not be battered down and bargained down.
If you ask ANY worker in the world if they wanted to work harder and longer than they need to the answer is obvious. NO. The chinese worker enjoys relaxation too. They just want to earn more money. However if their pay is not regulated then they will accept anything to put food on the table - in all of this you get a situation where the wealthy gets wealthier as the products consumed are cheaper, but the poor worker whose wage has dropped has become worse off because even though prices have stabilised, the real wage income has dropped.
Does anyone even wonder how much those factory workers at $30 an hour is going to earn in the "service" industry which is creating jobs. You don't wanna know.
True economic wealth in the world is a zero sum game. I say TRUE economic wealth, you need to measure that accurately. Put liquid in a U tube, it'll equalize. The low one comes up but what happens to the other side..................
One thing for sure..... the US is running on momentum. Purely momentum, it has some leaky cylinders and the last stimulus was Nitrous dropped in. The inevitable is still there.........Nitrous does not fix an engine. |
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| Morse |
Hi Mikett;
Interesting thoughts.
>>>...One thing for sure..... the US is running on momentum. Purely momentum, it has some leaky cylinders and the last stimulus was Nitrous dropped in. The inevitable is still there.........Nitrous does not fix an engine...<<<
Yep you certainly got that right. FWIW, I've been using both the analogy of a farmer who's sold his seed corn and the analogy of the carpenter who's sold his tools. It might feel like we're wealthy for a while, but when the influx of wealth the US received in the form of artificially cheap products from shipping off it's manufactories runs out, a bitter harvest will be the result. And anyone who thinks we can bring home the machine tools that headed east is a fool; my take on the Peking regime is that they'd cheerfully nationalise all the industries that have set up shop there rather than see them exit.
All the best,
Morse |
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| shanemac |
| quote: | Originally posted by Morse
and the analogy of the carpenter who's sold his tools. It might feel like we're wealthy for a while,
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This is a VERY good analogy to the current global economic situation.
| quote: | | I say TRUE economic wealth, you need to measure that accurately. Put liquid in a U tube, it'll equalize. The low one comes up but what happens to the other side |
this is true - I predict that after the China Economic Machine and Capitalism is fully entrenched in China - The Consumption Machine (North America & The EU) will go looking for another ripe plum to pick - Ummmm how about Africa they need some factories and jobs.... just my 2 cents. ;)
...of course that's about 15-20 years off.... and who know what'll happen down that road.
With the research being done with nano-tech ...we'll be in phase 1 of the nano-tech revolution. Nano lithography drives the size of a wrist watch that could hold 3-4TB worth data... nano assemblers, and de-assemblers …we will then all need to change our thinking about what an Economy “IS” …when at a certain point if you want the new Ford Explorer – you download it and have it build in your driveway by nano-assemblers (provided that the raw materials are available) ….great now I’ve come out of the crack-pot closet |
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| Lyra |
WHY!!!! do this turn in to a discussion about car's, and politics ????
Isn't this forum meant as a technical forum, or...???
I am sure U can find elsewere discussing Politics, world economy, and CAR's, and..... !?
....what will be the next.....???....sex?, drugs?, killing whales?...violent movies?....:bawling:
Just a little torch.....;) |
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