| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
how do you know that the no-name brands are returned at a 50% rate?
statistics only please. no anecdotes. |
:D
I've just thrown in a number.:angel:
From experience of several people I know and stories I hear everyday.
BTW, including Nuuk.;)
Just to tell you that the number of returned units is much higher than the major brands. |
|
|
| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Note: if you pull my leg I'll tell you the curious story of LG Electronics. |
O.K., I'm pulling...:)
Cheers,;) |
|
|
| Freddie |
I recently bought a cheap DVD player Eltax DV-100 ($80). And it works really good, for the price I think it's a bargain. Sounds good, picture is fine too. Of course there are other more expensive DVD-players that are better. I previously owned a cheap Yamakawa DVD-player, which for the price also was very good.
I would definitly buy a cheap DVD player instead of a cheap CD player:) And I do think it's worth to do some tweaking (clock, analog stage) to improve its performance. Although I haven't got time for that yet. I wouldn't be suprised if it's just as good as a "well known brand" DVD-player for $150.
/Freddie |
|
|
| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
From experience of several people I know and stories I hear everyday. |
if I had a dime for every story I heard about malfunctioning brand name DVD players, I would have been a millionair by now, :)
the only DVD player that died on me is a Toshiba, after about a year of light use. the only CD player that died on me is an Onkyo 5-disk type. The only DVD player that didn't quite work is a Denon.
One of the DVD players that worked really well for me is an Apex.
I just don't know what conclusions you can draw from that. |
|
|
| fcserei |
| quote: | Originally posted by hifiZen
No. In fact, every DVD player I've encountered reverts to plain-jane 1x playback, just like an ordinary CDP. Sidenote: most DVD players have a separate laser just for CD, but cheap players skip this, and use one laser for both DVD and CD. Of course, it won't be the proper wavelength for one or maybe even both types of disc. Back to the point: the reason nobody does higher read speeds is that CD discs don't have any kind of physical data addressing built in, like HDDs or DVDs do. This makes it hard to realign the data streams if there's a jump during playback... you don't know where you are, or where you were in the data stream. Hence, when a CD skips, the playback can resume from just about any random point in the adjacent data. Yes, there's a timecode in Q-subchannel, but that's not very reliable or useful, so it's just ignored. At the root, CD playback almost always relies on a servo loop controlling the spindle speed, in order to keep the RF signal locked to a PLL, and the data flows at exactly 1x... straight to the DACs (or maybe through a buffer).
|
I've checked my dvd players at home and all of them except a first generation Sony is spinning CDs more than 1x speed in spite of the CD discs don't have any kind of physical data addressing built in. Even on newest cd decoder chipsets 2x and 4x playback is widely supported - to make time available for skip protection buffering. |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
if I had a dime for every story I heard about malfunctioning brand name DVD players, I would have been a millionair by now, :)
the only DVD player that died on me is a Toshiba, after about a year of light use. the only CD player that died on me is an Onkyo 5-disk type. The only DVD player that didn't quite work is a Denon.
One of the DVD players that worked really well for me is an Apex.
I just don't know what conclusions you can draw from that. |
What can I say, millwood?
My advice to you is that you run to the first supermarket an buy one of those all-in-one AV packages with amp-dvd-tuner in one box and "portable-radio" style speakers.
They even have a sub.
All this for 250 Euros.
Then, THROW AWAY YOUR MAIN SYSTEM.
Watch your films and LISTEN TO YOUR MUSIC on this ****.
:bawling: :bawling: :bawling: |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
O.K., I'm pulling...:)
Cheers,;) |
There was a korean brand called Goldstar.
This was in the 80's, to the beginning of the 90's.
Nothing special, cheap TV sets, videos, hi-fi.
Things got bad finantially, and then one big american company took it.
That big american company is the tobacco brand LUCKY STRIKE.:eek:
LG was born.
In around 10 years they made a huge company, a monster that has everything, from fridges to air-conditioned, to LCD displays, to DVDs...
Impressive.
So... LG = "Lucky Goldstar"?:clown: |
|
|
| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
What can I say, millwood? |
what can I say, carlosfm?
mortgage your house and your retirement and your kids' college tuition funds, go rush to the rip-me-off "high-end" dealer, load up on $5000/channel chip-amps, $50,000 moon-rock based speakers, and $1 million super-high-end one of a kind dvd players and listen to your music on that so you don't have to deal with those super-cheap DVDs, :)
if you can actually hear the difference is irrelevant, :)
You are trying to prove your point with an (unscientific) approach and when the exact same approach is used to refute your conclusions, you got mad at your own approach. isn't that the big picture here? |
|
|
| fdegrove |
Hi,
This part I didn't know:
| quote: | Things got bad finantially, and then one big american company took it.
That big american company is the tobacco brand LUCKY STRIKE.
|
Thanks for the anecdote, Carlos.
Cheers,;) |
|
|
| Nuuk |
| quote: | | BTW, including Nuuk. |
Yippee! Does this make me a global statistic? :D |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
This part I didn't know:
Thanks for the anecdote, Carlos.
Cheers,;) |
I've read that on a newspaper some years ago.
It's true.;) |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
what can I say, carlosfm?
mortgage your house and your retirement and your kids' college tuition funds, go rush to the rip-me-off "high-end" dealer, load up on $5000/channel chip-amps, $50,000 moon-rock based speakers, and $1 million super-high-end one of a kind dvd players and listen to your music on that so you don't have to deal with those super-cheap DVDs, :)
if you can actually hear the difference is irrelevant, :)
You are trying to prove your point with an (unscientific) approach and when the exact same approach is used to refute your conclusions, you got mad at your own approach. isn't that the big picture here? |
I'm not one of those "high-end means expensive" guys millwood.
My humble Yamaha CDP (tweaked, including clock) with my Audio Alchemy DDE v3.0 (tweaked, regulated PSU and OPA627) makes a Sony SCD1 seam like a cheap portable CDP.
Anyday, anywhere.
I only need to test two CDs I have to evaluate a system.
This saturday I've just disgraced a system on a store with a CD I took with me.
I inserted the disc and the disgrace was complete.
The guy was demonstrating the system with soft music with birds and few instruments.
I went there because a friend of mine asked me, he needed some advice.
The complete system I'm talking about costs more than 15,000 Euros.:eek:
millwood, I don't want a discussion here, I just think that super-cheap DVDs is not the way to go.
My advice is buy a low range big brand DVD if you want one.
THE DIFFERENCE IN IMAGE QUALITY CAN BE HUGE.
The sound is **** too, but it's a better machine to tweak.
Nuuk, I've just thrown a number, it was an example, not a statistic.
I meant that a big brand can't afford to have so many unsatisfied customers. |
|
|
| millwood |
sounds like your reporter needed some serious work, :)
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
There was a korean brand called Goldstar. |
Goldstar was established in the 1950s as a division of Lucky Chemical. The two (and others in the Lucky family) were consolidated into today's LG in the mid 1990.
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
Things got bad finantially, and then one big american company took it. |
LG bought Zenith (a US company that makes TV) and as part of its financial crisis in the late 1990s struggled quite a bit. the restructuring was done by the late 1990s and Zenith remains as part of the LG family.
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
That big american company is the tobacco brand LUCKY STRIKE.:eek: |
Lucky Strike is a brand owned by American Tobacco Company (ATC and now part of BAT). it never had anything to do with LG.
I cannot believe you guys fall for this kind of stuff so easily. |
|
|
| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
I'm not one of those "high-end means expensive" guys millwood.
millwood, I don't want a discussion here, I just think that super-cheap DVDs is not the way to go. |
I find that thought process interesting. On one hand, you are saying that price isn't an indication of quality (high-end doesn't mean expensive). On the other hand, your objection to those dvd players is that they are super cheap.
You have never articulated any linkage between being super cheap and being bad in quality. The discussion would have been far more objective and helpful if you were made at those players because of their bad quality.
Instead, you focused on their prices, which by your own admission isn't an indication of quality.
Just some inconsistencies. |
|
|
| Rob M |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
Goldstar was established in the 1950s as a division of Lucky Chemical.
|
Actually, back then it was "Lak Hui Chemical". They changed the name to Lucky in 1974.
http://www.lg.co.kr/english/about/h...meline/1947.jsp
Google is a wonderful thing. |
|
|
| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by Rob M
Google is a wonderful thing. |
sorry for my bad memory. Yeah, that reporter could have just googled and s/he would have avoided spreading mis-information, :) |
|
|
| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | They changed the name to Lucky in 1974. |
1947. No?
Cheers, ;) |
|
|
| jean-paul |
Never seen so many BS in one post concerning the history of LG ( Lucky Goldstar ). Why posting such crippled info when you can Google for facts ??
As a sidenote: I consider LG one of the more reliable brands. I have bought quite some LG stuff and nothing failed till now. |
|
|
| fdegrove |
Hi,
Ooopsie...Guess Jean-Paul woke me up.
It was in 1974 that they changed the name of the company to Lucky.
The link sent me to the wrong page.
LUCKY
Cheers,;) |
|
|
| hifiZen |
| Well whatever their history, they're definitely a HUGE company... if you've been to Korea, you'll know what I mean... |
|
|
| hifiZen |
There are three big companies in Korea that own everything under the sun... LG, Samsung, and another company called ST (I think...). These guys do everything, including apartment buildings and gas stations, LG-Mart at the corner, insurance, you name it, one of these companies does it!
Incidentally, I don't like LG electronics much. I had an LG cell phone that was a piece of junk, and I wouldn't buy an LG DVD player either. Samsung is a different story though. You may not know it, but I believe Sony's bottom-end DVD players are OEM'd by Samsung... |
|
|
| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by hifiZen
You may not know it, but I believe Sony's bottom-end DVD players are OEM'd by Samsung... |
it wouldn't surprise me from the OEM point of view: some of those "super cheap" DVD players are also sold as branded dvd players as well.
What does surprise me that Sony sourcing from Samsung. Samsung is widely viewed as Sony of tomorrow: a company with competent engineering capabilities but superb marketing and branding power. But then Sony is buying Samsung panels for its HDTV so I shouldn't be surprised, :). |
|
|
| Morse |
Hi HiFiZen;
>>>...You may not know it, but I believe Sony's bottom-end DVD players are OEM'd by Samsung...<<<
I can't yea or nay-say that, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Bottom end CD and DVD players are notorious for being badged in big name companies (and there are a couple of Samsung parts in my older Sony DVD player that imply an establihed corporate relationship).
Segue to the topic of changing nationalities of production, I've now seen my first non-Japanese built Panasonic audio equipment in a Japanese store (it was a small amp/speaker module that docked to a minidisc player - the MD player was indeed 'made in Japan' though).
Ja mata,
Morse |
|
|
| Christer |
As you all note, the cheaper things are often outsourced for
production in countries with lower production costs. Sometimes
one gets a surprise, though. Five or six years ago I bought
my first CD-burner, an Acer which was one of the cheapest at the
time but which got very good reviews. I hadn't even heard
about Acer, but it is obviously Taiwanese. Well it good good
reviews and it turned out to be very well built mechanically,
much much better than any other ones I have seen. I later
found out that that particular cheap model was manufactured by
Philips for Acer!!!! None of the other Acers that followed
seemed anywhere near this one in build quality even though
many of them were much more expensive.
To anticipate the obvious remark, yes, it may be that Philips
outsourced the manufacturing to Asia, but it is still interesting
how companies buy things from each other in strange ways. |
|
|
| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | but it is still interesting how companies buy things from each other in strange ways. |
Not all that strange really, a closer look at Philips as a group or Siemens for instance will make you see that there few brandnames that are NOT related to a major player.
For a few years already we have this commercial for Calgonit running, a product you add to water to soften it's Ph when you wash dishes.
Ah, it must be good because it's supported according to the commercial by Siemens, Baucknecht, Bosh etc...
Bottomline is, all of the above companies belong to the Siemens group of companies...
Now take Vishay, they incorporate product by Wellwyn, Roederstein and no doubt a raft of others...
And the list goes on and on...
Cheers,;) |
|
|
| hifiZen |
| quote: | Originally posted by Christer
...Sometimes
one gets a surprise, though... |
Yeah, PC goodies in particular seem to have a lot of cross-branding going on. I have an LG GMA-4020B DVD-writer, but it was designed by Hitachi, and is quite a good product. Likewise, my el-cheapo CenDyne DVD-reader is also a rebadged Hitachi drive, and again, quite a good unit. I think with really new technologies like this, where they're pushing the envelope, only a few companies have the R&D background to field a good product. The others often start with rebadged units just to have something on the market (and hopefully it'll get good reviews to support future sales); then gradually as they learn from the leaders, they'll start to make their own. I've found it really worthwhile to do a little research before buying computer add-ons.
Unfortunately, this doesn't apply to cheap-o DVD players. The fundamental technology has already 'trickled down' to chip makers who can substantially undercut the more expensive and elaborate chipsets offered by the R&D leaders.
Just to give a little further insight into the differences betwen more expensive DVD chipsets and cheap ones, the ZiVA-5 series chips I worked with had a very fast 32-bit processor core, running at around 150MHz. One company added video game functionality to a DVD player using our chip - they had Doom running right on the core processor! In contrast, the bottom-end chips use something akin to the 8051 microcontroller. The difference is what can be accomplished in terms of graphic overlays, more sophisticated functions, and flexibility of software customization so that companies can have the exact look-and-feel that they want. This really affects the GUI behaviour, but more sophisticated hardware also has an impact during playback, when various techniques are used to perform image enhancement (eg, removal of visible compression artifacts, noise reduction, etc), scaling for anamorphic/letterbox content, and progressive-scan conversion. In the case of DVD, bits are not just bits. There is a lot of processing that goes on before the final image is displayed on your screen, and quality of the video algorithms can play a huge role in how good the result looks. This is one area that C-Cube had, and still has (as LSI) a big advantage over most other companies. C-Cube developed some of the first MPEG video encoder and decoder hardware, actually winning an Emmy award for their contribution to the movie industry. Their R&D backgroud is almost unmatched. I am looking forward to the coming DVD-recordable products containing LSI's DMN-86xx series chips. I did a fair bit of work with these chips, and they have some remarkable capabilities... real-time MPEG video encode (at very high quality, I might add), format to format transcoding (DV, MPEG2, H.264...), simultaneous playback while recording from another video source, and best of all, really good progressive scan deinterlacing. I think one of the first to use true motion compensation (LSI patented, as I recall), whereas everything out there to date has just been motion adaptive, which isn't in the same league as motion compensation. I've seen the demos first hand, and wow is all I can say. Of course, you need a progressive scan display to take advantage of it... |
|
|
| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by hifiZen
In contrast, the bottom-end chips use something akin to the 8051 microcontroller. |
do they use that 8051-like microcontoller for mpeg2 decoding or for control purposes? Being an ex-MCS (that last I programmed is 8096) series embedded chip programmer myself, I could get stack overflow on those guys by pressing and holding a key. I would have never imagined that they could do even 1% of mpeg decoding.
But they might have made some super 8051 since then. |
|
|
| hifiZen |
| No, no of course not. MPEG decode is a dedicated hardware block! This is only for control functions, and in ZiVA-5 case, some audio DSP stuff, or web browser etc. |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
You have never articulated any linkage between being super cheap and being bad in quality. The discussion would have been far more objective and helpful if you were made at those players because of their bad quality.
|
millwood, you didn't read this thread from the begining, did you?
Guys, I've read that LG story on a newspaper some years ago and I thought it was true.
If it isn't sorry.:apathic: |
|
|
| Nuuk |
IMHO this thread seems to have gone as far as it can.
Everybody will have their opinions about ultra cheap electronic components like DVD players and that will depend a lot on what you want them for.
Despite my experiences with the one that I purchased (and subsequently returned) it would have been an interesting exercise to tweak it and see what sort of performance could have been achieved. Yes, I know the build quality was awful but at the price, there was not much to lose if something went badly wrong during the tweaking. Not everybody has the bottle to start butchering a 200$ piece of equipment when it is still under guarantee! :smash:
Likewise, we will (or should) have our own views on the global econonomy, sweatshops and other matters related to this issue but not necessarily concerned with DIY hi-fi.
We have had some excellent insights into the design and production of CD/DVD players but now it seems as though the thread is degenerating into a personal slanging match that will probably end up being stopped by the moderators. Bettere to end it as friends I say.
Anyway Carlos (OT), all I can say to you is why haven't you told me about Mariza (Fado Curvo) before? ;) |
|
|
| Circlotron |
| quote: | Originally posted by fcserei
I've checked my dvd players at home and all of them except a first generation Sony is spinning CDs more than 1x speed in spite of the CD discs don't have any kind of physical data addressing built in. Even on newest cd decoder chipsets 2x and 4x playback is widely supported - to make time available for skip protection buffering. |
Same with me. My Digitrex goes at a constant ~2000 rpm when playing an audio CD. |
|
|
| mrfeedback |
"This is one area that C-Cube had, and still has (as LSI) a big advantage over most other companies. C-Cube developed some of the first MPEG video encoder and decoder hardware, actually winning an Emmy award for their contribution to the movie industry. Their R&D backgroud is almost unmatched."
...... So the AUS$5.00 that I spent yesterday at the local recycling center for a Diamond DVD-201D using a C-Cube decoder was money well spent !!!! - 5 minutes to get the lid off, reseat a dodgy ribbon cable, refit the lid and it now flies.
This machine has stereo only output using a CS4334K DAC mounted on the output terminal board.
Right now the audio output is nothing to write home about, but some electro changes and close look at earthing arrangements will likely help - I might even change caps in the SMPS module, but that would double the cost of this thing !!!.
Eric / - Always knows a bargain......... |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Anyway Carlos (OT), all I can say to you is why haven't you told me about Mariza (Fado Curvo) before? ;) |
I though you knew.:D
Excellent.
And you may want to hear the last one from Dulce Pontes.;) |
|
|
| Nuuk |
| quote: | | And you may want to hear the last one from Dulce Pontes. |
I'll check it out. :) |
|
|
| jean-paul |
| quote: | | We have had some excellent insights into the design and production of CD/DVD players but now it seems as though the thread is degenerating into a personal slanging match that will probably end up being stopped by the moderators. Bettere to end it as friends I say. |
Sorry but I don't see your point. No quarrels and HifiZen still telling interesting things about the subject. So why should we quit ? |
|
|
| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
millwood, you didn't read this thread from the begining, did you? |
yes, I have.
The point is that price shouldn't be the yard stick in determining which dvd is good and which isn't. My Denon, which is probably more expensive and considered better than a lot of the dvd players out there, sucked in pretty every aspect of it. My Panasonic, an al-cheapo player, is the best I have seen so far.
I work in an industry where anything is bad at a price and anything is good at a price too. and I know how foolish it is to judge product quality by the size of their price tags. |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
My Panasonic, an al-cheapo player, is the best I have seen so far.
|
Of course.:cool:
I recommended people to buy the Panasonic S35 DVD-A/V.
That's a good basis to tweak.
And it costs around 120 Euros here.
My advice was to spend just a little more money and buy one of these.
I know a guy that says: "I don't have money to buy cheap".
I learned to understand him.;) |
|
|
| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by carlosfm
I recommended people to buy the Panasonic S35 DVD-A/V.
That's a good basis to tweak.
And it costs around 120 Euros here.
My advice was to spend just a little more money and buy one of these.
|
so 120 Euro is the cut-off point? my panasonic then didn't make it. and it delivers fabulous pictures driving my PDP panel, :)
maybe I should just mail panasonic another $60 to make your cut-off price. Do you think they will take it?
:) |
|
|
| rbroer |
Millwood,
be aware that US prices are sometimes 50% of the European prices for the same product.
I paid Euro 129 for this Panasonic, which is really great out of the box (I choose it for best sound in the cheap DVD class division).
I recall Dorkus having paid us$70 for it :bawling: It's not fair :bawling:
I do agree that price doesn't say a lot about the quality.:cool: |
|
|
| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by rbroer
I do agree that price doesn't say a lot about the quality.:cool: |
I have no doubt that some of those al-cheapo DVD players are ****. the point I wanted to make is that you can find equally crappy DVD players in more expensive brand name boxes. so why blame all the DVD players for being inexpensive?
my first Sony costed me upwards of $1K. and my lowly Panasonic can run circles around that Sony. Why? Because of those al-cheapo players.
People keep talking about jitters this, jittesr that. how many of you have heard jitters in a CD player, being it a $10 KISS portable or a $30 Apex DVD player? I haven't.
Not to mention that jitters, as defined in the sense of CD audio, do not exist in the DVD world. Yet people still insist on jitter being an issue with al-cheapo dvd players.
I don't know about you but there isn't much (any?) difference between a 1 coming out of an Apex DVD player and a 1 coming out of a Denon DVD player.
Will the Denon be quieter? yes. More reliable? maybe. Better built? yes. Sound better? not sure.
Someone pointed this out a while ago but I think it is worth repeating: you are likely to get improvement on the analog front in a cheap dvd player.
On the digital front? unless you have platinum ears (gold ears aren't sufficient anymore, :)), you are better served leaving it alone. |
|
|
| millwood |
here is a quick link to a USAToday's article on vehicle quality, how people perceive them vs. how they perform in real world.
here is an interesting study reported by usatoday.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos...5-quality_x.htm
it essentially compared a vehicle's quality (per JD Power's vehicle dependibility survey) vs. "perceived" quality survey of the same vehicle.
the following is a short list of vehicles that actually are more dependible than people think:
Mercury
Infiniti
Buick
Lincoln
Chrysler
Lexus
Porsche
Mostly US makes. It is interesting that Infiniti and Lexus actually made it on that list.
the follow is a short list of vehicles that are less dependible than people think:
LandRover
Kia
VW
Volvo
Benz
Mistubishi
Hyundai
Audi
BMW.
Mostly high-end European and low-end Korean cars. |
|
|
| Christer |
From which we learn (if treating Porsche as a "measurement
error") that americans underestimate native brands and
overestimate foreign brands. It could still be that the
foreign brands are highly superior, just not as much as expected.
That interpretation is fully consistent with the data presented
(the link didn't work, so I don't know if there is more detailed
statistics there). |
|
|
| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | From which we learn (if treating Porsche as a "measurement |
From which I learn that there are mostly flying carpets on the American roads....
IOW, a marketing study getting paid to boost locally made cars.
BTW, give me any Porsche prior to 1990 and I'll maintain it all by myself at the cost of 15L of oil a year given a yearly use of 20.000Km.
It's the most economic car I know of.
And there are many other advantages, not to mention the pleasure of driving one on the German Autobahn.
Seven Eleven? No, no, Nine Eleven...;)
Nowadays cars are just electronics on wheels really...The fun is gone....
Cheers,;) |
|
|
| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by Christer
It could still be that the foreign brands are highly superior, just not as much as expected. |
I thought the study was about reality vs. perception, not if brand A is better than brand B.
My Audi has not lived up to its expectation, and my BMW, after a couple of early quirks, has been trouble free. Had an Infiniti in the early 1990s, and it has to be one of the worst cars I have ever had.
Best car I have ever had is a 1970 Mazda RX7 and a 1982 Datsun 280ZXT.
sounds like we are pulling away from the original thread so maybe the moderators should move it to off-topic? |
|
|
| alvaius |
I can honestly say I have heard jitter. There will be more jitter on a cheap DVD player. And yes, even DVD players, the cheap and the expensive ones have jitter. While it is true that in a DVD, the audio is buffered (at least for DVD-Audio), no guarentees what they will do with CD-Audio, the clocks that are used to run the DACs are generally generated from a PLL inside a big SOC. That PLL can be very jittery. I can state quite unequivocally that one of the ways the low end brands cut costs is to shave performance. Yes the SOC will work with only 1 tantalum cap and a couple of ceramics with a so-so layout, however, the noise, jitter on the PLLs, etc. will be much better if you add to the tantalum a couple of big well placed MLC caps, so more small ceramic caps for high frequency filtering, take the time to do a really good job on the layout, etc. Now we add better power supply filtering on the DACS, better layout on the DACS\op-amps, better decoupling capacitors, etc. ...... this has and will always be the difference between low end and high end. Functionally they may be similar, they are both DVD players, but one has been implemented optimally, and one has been implemented as cheap as will work. The goal for the cheap DVD players is to get an image on that 27", $200 TV bought from Walmart coupled with the $150 5.1 surround system, not to project a beutiful image on a $4,000 Plasma (or your pic of what you like) display running into a $5,000 surround system.
Alvaius |
|
|
| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
1970 Mazda RX7 |
should have been a 1979 Mazda RX7. |
|
|
| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | should have been a 1979 Mazda RX7. |
Das sollte einer mit Wankel Motor sein dann, oder?
Entschuldige aber waere das eine Kopie der beliebter RO80 von NSU?
Glaub schon...
Cheers, :xeye und gruesst die, Millwood.
Translation upon request. |
|
|
| mrfeedback |
At the lower end of DVD players, I think that jitter performance is much lower priority than fitting all that circuitry onto a small decoder board, if it is considered at all.
Ever since the invention of CD players, all have quoted wow/flutter performance as "immeasurable".
This is probably correct for the bandwidth and averaging times spec for W/F measurement standard, but as we all know by now digital machines do have a form of W/F called jitter, only the spectrum of speed instability is different and the products are agueably much more sonically noticable/damaging/disturbing.
Quoting W/F meter figures is true, but not representative of sonic performance.
Jitter spectrum is very highly detectable, so any figures quoting jitter levels also require spectral information to be fully useful.
Eric. |
|
|
| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Quoting W/F meter figures is true, but not representative of sonic performance. |
Is there any such measurement, really?
Cheers,;)
P.S. Did you get your cable yet? |
|
|
| mrfeedback |
Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi, Is there any such measurement, really?
No not really.
I meant it as an indicator of jitter audibility only in this case.
P.S. Did you get your cable yet?
No not yet - Stuart says it is on its way - should be soon.
Eric. |
|
|
| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | No not yet - Stuart says it is on its way - should be soon. |
In SY we trust, then....
Hitting the sack and the GF...6 AM I must be out of my mind..........
See ya,;) |
|
|
| mrfeedback |
Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi, In SY we trust, then....
Yes, and UPS.
Hitting the sack and the GF...6 AM I must be out of my mind..........
Coming to bed at 6.00 AM - sounds more like your GF will be hitting you.........., or did you mean 'hitting on' your GF at 6.00 AM ?. :D
See ya,;)
Good luck........... ;) |
|
|
| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by rbroer
I paid Euro 129 for this Panasonic, which is really great out of the box (I choose it for best sound in the cheap DVD class division).
|
Yes, it's the best for the money.;) |
|
|
| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by mrfeedback
Jitter spectrum is very highly detectable,
Eric. |
is this another case of your anecdotes? or it actually comes with a rigorous and scientific process? |
|
|
| Freddie |
Eltax DV-100 DVD-player.
I must say once again that I'm suprised that a cheap DVD as this, can perform so good.
The DAC used is the Wolfson WM8746 6 channel 24-bit 192kHz. The analog output stage consist of a couple of cheap opamps. |
|
|
| Freddie |
| Another picture of the main PCB. |
|
|
| iampivot |
| Anyone know of any cheap player with DVI out that can be modified to sound ok? |
|
|
| emuman100 |
| I bought a cheat $40 memorex dvd player from a drug store here in the US. It has progressive scan output. It's super small. I love the damn thing. It uses a Sunplus chipset. The DSP and motor control are all Sunplus. The power supply and dvd section is integrated into one PCB. The DSP outputs composite, S-video, component/RGB. It outputs serial audio in either stereo or surround sound, and heads to a cirrus logic DAC which is a multichannel DAC. It outputs either component or RGB, probably dependant on the registers of the DSP. Video output is clean, but I haven't really tested the audio. Power sipply is a simple design, and seems adequately filters, but is switching. The PCB has all pads labeled. It also has horizontal and vertical sync outputs. I connected the RGB and sync lines to a VGA connector and tried it out, but the picture was green. This means the output is component video. There is somec way to change this, but I have no documentation on this sunplus chipset other than the schematic. The whole PCB is made by Tonic Electronics, Inc. which is a chinese company. I was suprised to find a service manual forv the damn thing, but it is nothing but the user manual with schematics and pcb drawings, etc at the end of the manual. Most of you guys bought cheap DVd players with the ESS VideoDrive chipsets. These are super common. Sunplus seems to be a new company. Their old name used to be Grandtech. They manufactured chipsets for cheap digital cameras and web cams, and now they've expanded their line to condsumer applications like DVD and mp3 decoder chipsets. Tonic Electronics designed a PCB, which includes a power supply and everything all on one board. I forget who makes the drive. The front panel is connected to the main PCB. The display is VFD, so it uses low voltage AC to drive it, about 3.2Vrms. The .pdf is 4mb. I'll put it on my geoshities web server for you all to enjoy. I remember a chinese site selling drives and ESS VideoDrive and Sunplus complete DVD player PCBs with multiregion, no macrovision, all outputs, and VGA output even. The Sunplus PCB was the one that caught my eye. I'll see if I can buy one in a quantity of one and try to assemble my own player. I only want a decent cd player that will output S/PDIF. |
|
|
| TugaTweaker |
I know . Iknow . Denon dv 1910 . I changed the 33uf 400v in the power supply by a Black Gate 100uf 350v and the 1n4007 rectifiers by 1200v SiC Schottkys and it is my CD / DVD player .
My TT22(Genalex) SE AMP by Jean Hiraga powers everything to TDL boxes with KEF200BG drivers .I can assure you all that the earthshaking sound at 20/30 hz is present . No need for huge wattage , bass exagerated , unreal in most of the cases surround .
Merry Christmas for you all folks
Martinho Adao| quote: | | Anyone know of any cheap player with DVI out that can be modified to sound ok? |
|
|
|
| sam9 |
| quote: | I'm suprised that a cheap DVD as this, can perform so good.
The DAC used is the Wolfson WM8746 |
Cheap but it looks intelligently laid out: Power supply on one side, transport in the center and DAC circuits + analog output on the other side. Lots of space between each module suggests that the designer remebered that air and the inverse square law make for pretty good yet virtually cost free shielding. The metal enclosure looks like it meets the most important requirements: some degree of shielding from the outside (if the plastic face plate has a metal lining we can't - better still), protection from curious fingers, a structure to hold the modules and provide connection and human interface.
The PCB look well constructed.
Last I heard the Wolfson IC was nothing to snear at.
In a lot of arenas, you can get surprising value for your money if you prioritize and focus on the essentialls while setting aside the foofaroo. |
|
|
| Bricolo |
Hi,
How's the market for cheap dvd players now, outside France?
Here, cheap (50€) DVD players are being replaced by DVD/Divx players at the same price, that's :bigeyes:
For that price, you have a player that reads CDs, DVDs, Divxs, VCD, SVCD, and sometimes DVDa! Some even have 5.1 outputs (often DD, some DTS too), RBG, composite, component (YUV) YC outputs, even VGA sometimes!
Most of them are based on a Mediatek chip (I even think it's a standard motherboard, from the pictures I've seen)
Hifizen mentionned this brand, do you know more about it? The chip is a MT1389. I've found a pinout, but no datasheet. Maybe someone can help.
http://1389.zewan.com/pics/MT1389DE_pinout.gif
They seem to be a good base for modding.
Some teams developped custom firmwares, enabling dts support, dvda... maybe enabling the vga and dvi outputs is possible, with a modified firmware and some added hardware.
Alex |
|
|
| Morse |
Hi everyone and thanks in advance for any suggestions;
Some time ago I posted my skepticism about the quality of low buck DVD/CD players. I stand corrected and have eaten my words (with a side order of fries). Cheap isn't necessarily bad at all in today's world of consumer electronics.
So, are there any cheap multiregion players that you can recommend (preferably with a 100V-240VAC switching power supply so I can use it anywhere)? Also, where would I find "player X" for sale?
All suggestions are welcome!
Thanks again and HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE! :)
Morse |
|
|
| motherone |
| quote: | Originally posted by Morse
Hi everyone and thanks in advance for any suggestions;
So, are there any cheap multiregion players that you can recommend (preferably with a 100V-240VAC switching power supply so I can use it anywhere)? Also, where would I find "player X" for sale?
All suggestions are welcome!
Thanks again and HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE! :)
Morse |
I'm with you.. I'd love some suggestions as well. It's the holiday season, and that means our bloated american consumerism will result in lots of inexpensive finds if we look in the right places.
I'd love to find a good DVD player to pair up with my m-audio superdac... Can anyone out there give me any pointers?
Just a small bit of info for our foreign friends.. I've seen Apex DVD players for as little as $34 at Walmart. Best buy had numerous brands (Technics, Toshiba, RCA and some others) on sale for $35-60.
I always thought one of those Apex units would make a cute transport... But, if I can spend a few extra $$ and get something better, I'm willing to do so. I'm very into planet-10's(?) "frugalphile" philosophy =) |
|
|
| sam9 |
In the digital realm, speed (sample rate) and resolution (word size) are 45% of the whole deal. Software is another 45%. The first obeys Moore's law. The second behaves like any software - a high develeopment cost divided by the number of users. Both drive cost doen wiyhout sacrificing performance. The remaining 10% is the analog part between the DAC and the RCA output connectors.
This is MY opinion and world view -- others may see it differently. |
|
|
| Morse |
Hi motherone;
>>>...Just a small bit of info for our foreign friends.. I've seen Apex DVD players for as little as $34 at Walmart...<<<
Speaking of Walmart, I bought a Polaroid PDV-0701A there the other day for $125 (!) - with it's 7" 16x9 screen, that's a find!
Now, I have to get a remote for it (that's the fly in the ointment - no remote :( ); it looks like the one from the PDV-0700 should work (fingers are crossed - I've yet to find a "universal" remote that worked on the Polaroids) since it looks like the manufacturer just put the 0700 in a cheaper case and didn't include the remote.
Supposedly there's a code that works on the PDV-0700 from the preferences page of the setup menu to enable multiregion capability. Similarly, I've read that most DVD players have such features - hidden away, to keep the software makers happy. I'd love to find a page of "enabling" codes, since I do NOT want to have to maintain multiple DVD players (one for purchases in Japan and one for my pre-existing US library).
Thanks for the tip on the Apex!
All the best and HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE! :)
Morse |
|
|
| moving_electron |
| quote: | Originally posted by Morse
Hi motherone;
Similarly, I've read that most DVD players have such features - hidden away, to keep the software makers happy. I'd love to find a page of "enabling" codes, since I do NOT want to have to maintain multiple DVD players (one for purchases in Japan and
All the best and HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE! :)
Morse |
http://www.videohelp.com/
The links on the navigation bar on the left should be a good place to start. Helped me find the trick so my daugher could see Asian region CDs on our VCR while taking Chinese. Pretty interesting watching Snow White and 101 Dalmations in Mandarin. Fun to see what voices they chose for the characters. |
|
|
| motherone |
| quote: | Originally posted by Morse
Hi motherone;
Speaking of Walmart, I bought a Polaroid PDV-0701A there the other day for $125 (!) - with it's 7" 16x9 screen, that's a find!
Supposedly there's a code that works on the PDV-0700 from the preferences page of the setup menu to enable multiregion capability. Similarly, I've read that most DVD players have such features - hidden away, to keep the software makers happy. I'd love to find a page of "enabling" codes, since I do NOT want to have to maintain multiple DVD players (one for purchases in Japan and one for my pre-existing US library).
Thanks for the tip on the Apex!
All the best and HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE! :)
Morse |
My girlfriend and I picked up the same one for $149 at bestbuy about a month ago. I'll have to look in to the region stuff on it. Thanks for the heads up! |
|
|
| Morse |
Hi Motherone;
Go to http://www.epinions.com/content_152393191044 for the details on how the multiregion capability is supposed to work. Please let me know if it works as the author claims! I'm considering tracking down a remote for my PDV-0701 and try the code on it...but won't waste the $$ if it turns out to be a red herring.
Happy Holidays!! :)
Morse |
|
|
| murat |
Also in Walmart there is an everything-player: Something like DV-275. Digital output specs are: 115 dB S/N and 0.002 THD. But I can't find info about analog audio output. Did anyone try it?
Cheers,
Murat |
|
|
| murat |
| Sorry, "Pioneer" DV-275 |
|
|
| karma |
ya walmart is the cheapest one i have seen yet its around $40.
and its small. |
|
|
| demogorgon |
hehe, just bought myself one of these players..
dont have a TV anymore, but it'l just serve as a cd player until i can get my hands on a proper cd player. preferably a old sony.. i'v seen a lot of theese going at a resonable price recently..
guess i'l fire up teh weller and give "andersons tekniske import" a call ;)
i'l be back when i'v listned to the thing.
-marius |
|
|
| Bricolo |
nobody interested in those cheap divx players?
i've seen some tweaked firmwares for some models, enabling things like dvd-a sacd and hdcd support, for the price it's a bargain! |
|
|
| demogorgon |
I vould be very interested!
but alas there is noone here at a resonable price! the cheapest i'v seen is 120euro, and i'm thinking more like 30euro max for this player.. probably a lot more for the uppgrades though :D |
|
|
| carlmart |
Is this portable Polaroid DVd player also zone switchable?
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/prod...172479%3A162710
The other was PDV-0700 and this is PDV-0701A, so it probably is too, but who knows?
It does not mention a remote control though, which seemed to be the way to go into the zone menu.
Carlos |
|
|
| Morse |
Hi Carlmart;
The PDV-0701A does NOT include a remote control; however, it APPEARS that it has an IR receiver built into the unit to interface with a remote control (shining a flashlight through the plastic IR port, it looks that way to me anyway...). Also, the PDV-0701A has menus (like the "parental control" feature) that imply that it can take in information from a remote control (you would need to be able to input a code # from a remote to use this feature - and if you go to the "parental control" submenu, it WILL ask for a code #).
Before I got this month's VISA bill, I was all set to order up a remote for a PDV-0700 and see if I could access the alleged multiregion capability. As it is, I'm going to wait until late next month....
All the best,
Morse |
|
|
| demogorgon |
| quote: | Originally posted by Morse
Hi Carlmart;
Before I got this month's VISA bill, I was all set to order up a remote for a PDV-0700 and see if I could access the alleged multiregion capability. As it is, I'm going to wait until late next month....
All the best,
Morse |
now, why does that sound so familiar? :clown: |
|
|
| John Audio |
The chairman of Apex Digital, a major US importer of TVs and DVD players, has been arrested in China.
The confirmation of David Ji's arrest came as Chinese media reports said he had been detained on fraud charges.
More info on BBC news Web site:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4134349.stm
Perhaps if you do want a cheap DVD machine to modify - get one now - the supply may dry up.....! |
|
|
| aditaquil |
The DVD player was made in china, so is very cheap :D and nice to our pocket. I had one for source of all my DIY amps for a year right now, and working until now.
So, buy it!!! And got a lot of fun!! |
|
|
| Morse |
Hi guys;
Just broke down and bought a Cyberhome 300 for under $40 from Walmart - so far so good. Sound seems a bit edgy, but it's not had any time to run in yet. OTOH, it was easy enough to change the region code to "0" (read all regions). Believe it or not, the instructions are posted over at the Amazon.com's review page (though you have to use the arrow keys to change the code itself, which he omitted to mention). It's also a marvelously compact DVD player, which is a big plus in my space starved household.
Only glitch so far was when I used 'eject' before stopping play, then inserted another disk. The machine got "lost" (evidently it didn't realise the disk had been changed) but a quick "stop" and "play" solved that (I've had the same thing happen on my $350 Sony and original $400 Panasonic, so it was hardly a let-down!).
Anyone else tried the Cyberhome 300? And if so, anyone tried tweaking it?
All the best,
Morse |
|
|
| DigitalJunkie |
Here's
A couple posts about it.
I havn't really modded it too much,added a couple of those green plastic caps to bypass the audio output electrolytics,and added the Os-con's in the power supply.
The power supply is a switching type (big suprise,how else would they cram it all in that small box!) and i'm sure more could be done to it,to clean up the output,regulation,etc. if you really wanted to.
But really,for so cheap,it's not all that bad as-is! |
|
|
| demogorgon |
ok, didn't get the player after all offcource, what appears to good to be true, is usally just that. to good to be true.
so i went ahead and ordered myself one o theese:
http://www.mamut.com/dynabel/subdet321.htm
not that most of you guys can read Norwegian offcource, but either way:
DivX capable
24bit\196khz dac
10bit video dac
DVD, CD, CD-R, CD-RW, SVCD, VCD and MP3. Dolby Digital and DTS decoder. soundoutputs: Analog 5.1, Optic and Coax. Video outputs: VGA, Scart, S-Video and analog out.
It has progressiv scan (VGA og scart) and HDCD dekoder.
cost me about 80euro.
not too bad, and is said to have a OK build quality as well. |
|
|
| jean-paul |
| I would not trust a device which has "Fornt" channels, A "coxa" digital output and a "progressive scans out" VGA connector ;) |
|
|
| thomas997 |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
I would not trust a device which has "Fornt" channels, A "coxa" digital output and a "progressive scans out" VGA connector ;) |
hahaha that is hilarious :) |
|
|
| Morse |
Hi guys;
Spent the day running in the Cyberhome 300 and reading up on firmware hacking - here are some observations:
One thing of interest is the "RCE" ("Region Code Enhancement") system that is on Sony and Columbia/Tristar disks. Apparently it was designed to defeat people with "region free" players - but so far it's not fazed the Cyberhome 300. "Blackhawk Down", "The Patriot", and "Spider-Man" are all reportedly fitted with RCE and they all played fine with the player set to region "0" (plays all regions).
Another thing of interest is the site at: http://www.videohelp.com/dvdhacks
It's got oodles of info, though some is apparently rather dicey (there was one poster who claimed to have a hack code for the Panasonic A110 - unfortunately several of the people who tried it reported that it ERASED part of their player's firmware....). I guess it's a case of "use anything you read online at your own risk".
Thanks Digital Junkie!
It's good to read from someone else out there who's having a blast with these cheap little DVD players!
The cyberhome is still a bit edgy in the upper midrange, so I may bypass the output caps eventually. However, as a Fostex devotee, I've learned all about the virtues of patience in giving hifi kit a chance to run in properly.
Hope I didn't put anyone to sleep!
All the best,
Morse |
|
|
| demogorgon |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
I would not trust a device which has "Fornt" channels, A "coxa" digital output and a "progressive scans out" VGA connector ;) |
ok, you are reffeing to typo's that arn't there?
i wrote coax, nothing about "Fornt" channels, and whats wrong with it having progressiv scan outs?
last i checked this was regarded as an improvement t picture quality..
i'm a bit puzzled by your post..
| quote: | Originally posted by thomas997
hahaha that is hilarious :) |
why? |
|
|
| JochenH |
| He's referring to the typos printed on the backpanel of the player which can be seen on the photo in the link you posted. Indeed amusing :D |
|
|
| demogorgon |
| quote: | Originally posted by JochenH
He's referring to the typos printed on the backpanel of the player which can be seen on the photo in the link you posted. Indeed amusing :D |
HA! just saw it..
now, im getting worried that this might not have been a good buy after all..:rolleyes:
oh well, i'm comforted by the thought that i'm getting a player of the new batch, and not the one in the picture. :apathic:
all i can do now is hope that the interior is paid better attension than the exterior. :xeye: |
|
|
| ocool_15 |
| That seems still sorta expensive for DVD players. Pretty much every store has ones for 49.99cdn ~$41american and sales and stuff are even cheaper. When I worked at Futureshop the store made only a few bucks on those so I think it was just to get people into the store... |
|
|
| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by ocool_15
That seems still sorta expensive for DVD players. Pretty much every store has ones for 49.99cdn ~$41american and sales and stuff are even cheaper. When I worked at Futureshop the store made only a few bucks on those so I think it was just to get people into the store... |
In Canada they get as cheap as $35 CAD... but after a visit to Future Shop the least i think i'd spend is $100 (~80 USD) for the Panasoic that (by the heft) probably has an analog supply.
dave |
|
|
| murat |
For price range ~$ 130 have you experience with Pioneer DV-578A-S? Cheers,
Murat |
|
|
| jaudio |
Looking for ideas on repairing pioneer 563 dvd player
When a disc is in,it reads no disc and motor doesnt spin |
|
|
| lomtik |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Perhaps online shopping isn't so high risk after all! :D |
That's a good one Nuuk :D :D :D
haha |
|
|
|
