| mathias |
| Like everybody else I started my projectordesign with a halogen bulb, but found out that it was too hot and didnīt give the light output I wanted. So I started looking for HID-bulbs. I found a lot of them in disco-equipmentshops, but to find a ballast, was much harder. So I figured out that a fluorescent-ballast works in the same way a hid-ballast works, you just need more powerful ones. I did a electronic simulation in the computer with parallel 36W ballasts and it gave right voltage and current for the lamp I was going to buy. So I bought a Philips cdm-t 150W bulb and tested my design and it works very well. The best part is that itīs very cheap only $25. I have used this ballastdesign now for 2 months and it still works very good. |
|
|
| mathias |
| Picture of the ballast. |
|
|
| ace3000_1 |
huh i like this idea and yess the ballasts suck for trying to find one in europe, the trusty old fluro ballasts rock for reliability too and are small, how hot do they run in your setup? and what voltage is the output at the lamp socket? i must say a smart idea u got going there but time will tell if its corect, i supose in this way that u have it we could distripbute the ballasts around in an enclosure to make it smaller too.
Trev |
|
|
| 18wheeler |
very interesting idea and great work!
do you have any design for 250W bulb or 110V power source? would be interested build a DIY ballast in USA :D
by the way, where did you get CDM-T for $25? the cheapest price I found in US is $44. |
|
|
| zx3chris |
very good idea. just a few days ago i was toying with the idea of putting home made HID lights in my car, only the ballast is too expensive. I have a friend at a ford dealer who can get the HID car bulbs for only $7, but the ballast (per side) is $150 his cost :( very high -- perhaps some of those ballasts you have, running off of a cheapo inverter may do the trick -- even found this ballast for 12v applications, however i think id need 5 or more paralleled for the power/voltage for 2 head lamps. thanks for the info
-chris |
|
|
| ace3000_1 |
heya bud i think he meant $25 for making the ballast, although i got my bulb cheap somthing like $30 and sockets i can get for like $5 thats a g12 socket, the ballast about the same as the bulb.
Trev |
|
|
| 18wheeler |
| oops. Then where did you get yours? bulb, socket and ballast? I am think of making a rear projector, which will have a smaller screen (60"), better light controll, so a 150W CDM-T sounds like a good choice. |
|
|
| ace3000_1 |
yeah to me the 150w cdm-t is the perfect choice for the rear projection we are looking into, not much heat either and that bulb is a kick *** bulb for colour stability and lm per watt, this is the link i got my gear from , i rang them for prices they are a distributer but sell to the public, u may need to find a ballast in the usa though for your voltage but realy i think this idea of mathis is great so id give that a go. If u ring these guys get a pre paid phone card its cheaper.
http://www.internationallamps.co.uk...t_subindex.html
Trev |
|
|
| mathias |
| The ballast getīs pretty hot but thats normal. I havenīt measured the temp but I think my gets 60 + 20 (temp in the room) = 80 degrees, according to the ballast manufacturer.By the way, tw130 means that the winding in the ballast can run 130 degrees hot for 10 years. |
|
|
| mathias |
| If you want to be sure the ballast works and gives the right voltage and current, you can test it with 3 200W normal bulbs for 230 Volt, that is equal to a 96V 150W bulb. You can use this design for 250W hid bulbs, but you need other values on the ballasts and the voltage and current will be diffrent. |
|
|
| Mr.Kh |
| Aww jeez :rolleyes: , I just figured out what a "Condensator" is, I kept looking at the symbol and I'm like that LOOKS like a capacitor, and it has a rating in fahrrads, but I've been trying to look up what a condensator is for a while now :smash: .... So for the english speakers like myself, yes those are Capacitors. |
|
|
| mathias |
| Yes, Condensator is actually Capacitor, Iīm sorry for my spelling. I know itīs hard to find a 18 uF / ~300V capacitor, but you donīt need it. But without it, your electricbill will be more expensive. |
|
|
| ace3000_1 |
is it possible that you can suply some parts like the cap?
Trev |
|
|
| mathias |
| I donīt think I need to supply any caps, they are pretty easy to find. You can find the 2.2nF capacitor in small fluorescent-lamp, broken powersupplys for computers and in many other things. It doesnīt have to be exactly 2.2nF, I use 3.3nF. :smash: Iīm working on a electric-ignitor that will be a better choice, and last much longer than the "conventional glow-tube starter" does. |
|
|
| ace3000_1 |
heya bud ok i see your using a different kind of cap, i used to wire up lights and they arent the same ones we used to use nor that are on a fluro light i got here. and yess the type of cap u are using u can get anywhere.
Trev |
|
|
| kcsabresfan |
| So where in the U.S. would someone find a handfull of ballasts like that, only made for U.S. 120V? |
|
|
| li_gangyi |
the ignitor..is a starter right?? tt kind that flickers when u turn it on..so does the HID flicker when u first on it??
And I though almost all starters had a cap internally connected inside... |
|
|
| Wes Marquenie |
I bought a 400W HQI ballast at www.firstlight.nl for 24 euro. It's not on their website, but I orderd by e-mail.
Regards,
Wes |
|
|
| Tall Shadow |
| quote: | Originally posted by kcsabresfan
So where in the U.S. would someone find a handfull of ballasts like that, only made for U.S. 120V? |
Looks like a standard solid state ballast. You should be able to find them at Home Depot/Lowes or any lighting/electrical shop.
I'd be interested to see someone try this on this side of the pond.
Good work guys!
Tall Shadow |
|
|
| li_gangyi |
| I'll bet it's not soild state...it's IRON....the usualy tranfo look-a-like kind... |
|
|
| mathias |
| Yes the Ignitor is a normal "starter" and yes the HID flickers some time before itīs starting. In the starter there is already a cap to reduce EMI. The HID-bulb needs a wider startingpuls than a normal fluorescent-lamp does, so thats why you need the cap. The ballasts are made of iron, and they are heavy. I want to help you with 120V but I donīt know what kind of ballasts you use in USA. |
|
|
| li_gangyi |
| guess the US has got iron ballasts as well...on the topic of starters...can I use a "flicker-free" kinda electronic starter...?? I dun see the 18uF cap in my home lighting..so I'm asking what izzit for?? |
|
|
| nmd_sb |
Anyone know where I can get HID ballast for that cheap in US?
I plan to duplicate that Korean ATX PJ design, and I was planning on using a Xenon setup with the actual headlight reflector casing. but its over $100 on Ebay. |
|
|
| mathias |
I have tried an "electronic starter", but it didnīt work, it went dead quite fastly. Anyway the "glow-tube starter" works very well with the 3.3nF cap, it starts the HID in a couple of seconds.
The only reason why there is a 18uF cap is that the ballast is a inductive load and to compensate that you put a capacitor in parallell with the powernet, the result will be a normal lamp load on the powernet. But the reality is as normal diffrent from the theory. The thing is that they donīt sell that cap. So I donīt use it myself. The result will be that it takes more power. If you put up four fluorescentlamp, there will be the same problem. So never mind the 18uF cap. |
|
|
| li_gangyi |
| so the 18uF cap actually helps to save power here? Hmmm...wanna try it out and see if my utility bill drops...hey if it works I owe it to you guys~!!! |
|
|
| nmd_sb |
| has anyone seen MH ballast for less than $50? |
|
|
| ace3000_1 |
| quote: | | has anyone seen MH ballast for less than $50? |
ya they are easy to find in europe, typically $25 -$30 230v though |
|
|
| nmd_sb |
i couldnt get that link, but i went through the home page, and saw Description:350 Watt, Pulse Start, Metal Halide, Sola Ballast
is that the one yo meant?
Also, in Home Depot I saw a High Pressure Sodium flood light kit, does anyone know how much heat they put out? |
|
|
| nmd_sb |
| also anyone know if a High Pressure Sodium Ballast can handle a Metal halide bulb? |
|
|
| 18wheeler |
| quote: | Originally posted by nmd_sb
also anyone know if a High Pressure Sodium Ballast can handle a Metal halide bulb? |
most cases, no. |
|
|
| nmd_sb |
| if any of you guys live near a home depot, can you check if they have a light kit that will accept a Metal Hallide bulb, i really appreciate it. thanks. |
|
|
| brainchild |
| quote: | Originally posted by nmd_sb
i couldnt get that link, but i went through the home page, and saw Description:350 Watt, Pulse Start, Metal Halide, Sola Ballast
is that the one yo meant?
Also, in Home Depot I saw a High Pressure Sodium flood light kit, does anyone know how much heat they put out? |
Crazy they rebuilt their site right after I posted a link. Here's another link..
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category.php?category=26
They have metal halide bulbs at my Home Despot, but I'm not sure about the ballasts. I'll check for you if I'm headed by there. |
|
|
| nmd_sb |
hmm, thats strange, I just went to Home Depot yesterday and asked an employee, and he said they dont have, unless he had no clue what it is.
do you remember the name of the brand? |
|
|
| kcsabresfan |
I know for a fact that the Home Depots in my area carry MH bulbs... but not the little double ended ones... only the larger screw in type (blanking on the real name of them right now)
I have never asked, but I've never found a ballast there to run the bulbs they carry. If they have them, they don't shelve them with the other ballasts or with the bulbs. |
|
|
| jcbklyny |
| The bulb I'm using is a MH and the ballast is High Pressure Sodium. It's a HPS Retrofit bulb made for the job. You cant just use any bulb this way. |
|
|
| nmd_sb |
jcbklyny , whats the model of your ballast? are you using a large HPS bulb?
I did see the huge 400W MH bulb at Home Depot today, but they dont have the ballast for it. Anyway that is too big for my projector, I need a small one.
Do you know if your HPS ballast will power a Xenon bulb?
another question off topic, my friend has a 3M 9100 OHP, its output is 2800 lumens, he wants to put the bulb made for the 3M 9700, which puts out 6000 lumens, I told him it should work, am I right????
Thanks. |
|
|
| mathias |
| Iīm now finished with my electronic ignitor, itīs start the HID in a more professional way and itīs more reliable. You can easy find parts for it, itīs actually a normal lightdimmer circuit. |
|
|
| mathias |
| A picture of the Ignitor. |
|
|
| li_gangyi |
| does it take the place of the starter (ignitor)?? And will it work with floursent tubes?? Seems pretty cool to have an electronic ignitor (no more flickering) |
|
|
| mathias |
| Yes, it replaces the "glow-tube starter". I have only tested this with the HID-lamp, this design is the same they use in factory-made HID-Ignitors, and I donīt know if it works with fluorescent tubes. But be careful it puts out 3000-4000 Volt in the starting sequence. |
|
|
| li_gangyi |
| so how can I actually drop the starting voltage to arund 300-400 V?? |
|
|
| mathias |
| Why do you want to drop the voltage to 300-400V ? A fluorescent tube needs 500-1000V to start. And if you want an electronic starter for fluorescent tubes, you can buy that in a normal lamp shop. But if you absolutly want to drop the voltage in the above circuit just remove 2 or 3 of the 100nF caps. |
|
|
| li_gangyi |
| sorry...forgot it needs 1kV...his original circuit will proved arund 3-4KV...which will kill me tube I guess...so I just have to remove 1 100nF cap huh?? seems good to me...I can't find the electronic starter arund here...hmmm wonder why...but they are so ex...even if I can locate one...I'll give this circuit a go and see what happens...hehehe |
|
|
| mathias |
| Iīm working on a new lightengine and while I was testing it, the bulb was overheated and turned it self of. The problem was that the electronic ignator was dead after that. So I just want to warn you. Do not try to start the bulb when itīs hot, wait 15 minutes, before you turn it on again, and there will not be any problem with the ignator. |
|
|
| li_gangyi |
| how did it kill itself?? I used it on my flourscent lights...works good... |
|
|
| Khmann002 |
| How is this project coming along? Has anyone have any improvments? |
|
|
| mathias |
I wrote before that the bulb was overheated and turned it self of. It wasnīt because of my new lightengine. It turned it self of again after 5 minutes in my normal ohp-setup. So I measured the voltage over the bulb and it was over 115 Volt, normally it should be 96 Volt. The bulb has changed itīs voltage-characteristic when it has been "burned in", and the ballast feeds it with to much voltage right now. I tested to only use 3 of the 36W ballasts, and the bulb worked perfectly again but it will only get 114W. Iīm going to reduce the power from the fourth 36W ballast tomorrow, so the bulb will not get overheated.
For whose of you who want to build this ballastdesign, use four 30W ballasts instead of 36W and you will not get any problem with overheated bulbs.:)
I have updated the electronic ignator, it will work better now. |
|
|
| mathias |
| I have now done some more testing and measuring on the bulb and ballasts. A new design canīt be perfect from the beginning it always need some adjustment. To get as close as possible to the rated 150W power, I need to mix 30W and 36W ballasts, two 30W and two 36W, now I got exactly 150W with 230V main voltage. The bulb works perfectly and is not overheated any more. Please let me know if you have problem with this design.:) |
|
|
| vimax |
I was just wondering if I wanted to use a 250W lamp the total ballast power increases linearily proportional?
The ignitor would be the same I guess... |
|
|
| mathias |
I canīt test the 250W bulb design but I did a simulation, according to that, you can use six 36W ballasts and you should get around 250W, but there are two version of the HQI 250W bulb, one that runs on 100V and the other runs on 133V.
Try this:
HQI 250W 100V = six 36W ballasts.
HQI 250W 133V = four 30W and two 36W ballasts.
I havenīt tried this, the only way to know if it works is to measure the voltage and the current, the bulb gets. Ignit the bulb and let it warm up, measure the voltage and current, when the voltage reach 100 Volt (100V bulb) lock at current-meter, it should say 2.4-2.5A. If the voltage goes over 100 V or you get more than 2.5A ,turn it of, replace one 36W ballast with a 30W, do the test again. |
|
|
| mervyntan |
hi,
anyone one can let me know how to DIY 12v hid ballast???
thanks
moot |
|
|
| Tekko |
| A 300W 12VDC to 120(230)VAC inverter May work but you still need the ballast inductor (transformer) for current limiting and the ignitor to turn on the bulb. |
|
|
| nyman |
| quote: | Originally posted by mathias
Yes, Condensator is actually Capacitor, Iīm sorry for my spelling. I know itīs hard to find a 18 uF / ~300V capacitor, but you donīt need it. But without it, your electricbill will be more expensive. |
The capacitor only changes the the phase of the current. This don't affect your electricbill, as the wattage is still the same. |
|
|
| Megaman |
| quote: | Originally posted by ace3000_1
quote:
has anyone seen MH ballast for less than $50?
ya they are easy to find in europe, typically $25 -$30 230v though
|
Where is that? I'v been looking around but found none that cheap. |
|
|
| Rox |
do yo think guys it is posible to make an electronic ballast with those dimmers?
i mean without any ballast.
If you check the especs on the net about the electronic ballast, youīll find they work at 20Khz-40Khz frecuency range, (i guess this is the trick to limit current) if we could make an square oscilator and add a power stage to it.... i donīt know.
What to you think?
It could be posible to modiffy a computer power suply???? |
|
|
| li_gangyi |
| IR has a range of ICs that do dimming...u might wanna look into those...but I only know they do flourscent lamps...perhaps they could be modded to suit? |
|
|
| part2wanksta |
this looks like it will run hqi lamps
what exactly do i need to get a 250w output
i have a 250w ballast, but it is core and coil., can i use anything from it |
|
|
| Guy Grotke |
I don't think the lamp would stay lit. If you look at the voltage across a regular flourescent lamp with a scope, you will see a high voltage spike at the beginning of every half cycle. I think this is required to keep the gas inside the tube ionized. Then the voltage drops down to the regular level (169 or 338 volts P-P sine wave).
I'd bet the MH ballast does the very same thing. So then you couldn't duplicate it with just a fast switch. You would need an inductor or a flying capacitor circuit to get the higher voltage spike. |
|
|
| part2wanksta |
| is there any way to make a core and coil ballast power the hqi bulbs. even if the quality is lestened |
|
|
| Megaman |
| Will the ballast design work with a hqi-t bulb? I'v just bought two bulbs and were thinking about building this, but now I'm not sure if it will work. Anyone knows? |
|
|
| Megaman |
| I guess that no one knows if it works with hqi-t. I will just have to test it then. Hopefully it won't explode on me. |
|
|
| karma |
| Hopefully:rolleyes: :dead: :clown: |
|
|
| Megaman |
I'v now got my ballast to work with my hqi-t bulbs, although it does not work good. I had to modify the starter quite a bit to make the bulb ignite at all.
I also need to have two of the coils disconnected while the bulb ignites to get a voltage peak that is large enough, and I disconnect the igniter after startup otherwise the bulb starts to twinkle and the starter breaks.
When the bulb is started up and have got warm it settles around 120V, 1.6 A. That is not correct as it should be 96V and 1.8A. I'm not sure how bad that is though. |
|
|
| mathias |
It was a long time ago I did something with this ballast design.
Yes it should work with hqi-t bulbs. The important thing with this
ballast is that the: Current * Voltage = Wattage of your bulb. Normally the bulb itself will decide how much voltage it will run on, the ballast will then reduce the current so you always will get the wattage of your bulb.
An example, if your have a 150W bulb and the voltage stop at 120V after warmup the current should be 1.25-1.3A.
Megaman, do you use the ballast with 2* 30W ballasts and 2 * 36W ballasts ? If you get 120V and 1.6A thatīs abolutely to much = 192W the lamp will get overheated and maybe turn it self off. Do you use the electronic igniter or the normal glow-tube starter ? |
|
|
| Megaman |
Nice to see that you are here again Mathias!
| quote: | Originally posted by mathias
The important thing with this
ballast is that the: Current * Voltage = Wattage of your bulb.
An example, if your have a 150W bulb and the voltage stop at 120V after warmup the current should be 1.25-1.3A.
|
But that assumes that the bulb is a reasistor and a real bulb is not that. The bulb is spec. for 96V, 1.8A and that is 173VA. It will still get 150W because with AC, watt is not voltage times current, it also depends on the phase between them. (But I think you know all this already)
| quote: | Originally posted by mathias
Megaman, do you use the ballast with 2* 30W ballasts and 2 * 36W ballasts ? If you get 120V and 1.6A thatīs abolutely to much = 192W the lamp will get overheated and maybe turn it self off. Do you use the electronic igniter or the normal glow-tube starter ?
|
Right now I'm actually using 3*40W and one 36W. That seems to me not to be enough though as the voltage is still too high (not enough current to decrease the voltage over the bulb, the bulb has negative resistance. I can see the current decreas and voltage go up when it is started.)
I'm using the electric starter, although I'v tried to modify it in order to get it start the bulb. I don't really know how to modify it so I'v just tried to increase/decrease all possible resistors and capacitors with half descent results. I think I need a larger voltage spike for it to ignite properly. |
|
|
| mathias |
As far as I know, is the bulb a resistance and it does not change characteristic depending on frequency.
The ballast work as a 6dB lowpass filter for speakers with a coil. A 30W ballast has more H (Henry) than a 40W ballast. The lower H (Henry) you got in the ballast the more power will the bulb get, at a given frequency 50Hz or 60Hz.
You are feeding the bulb with too much power, if you increase the current the voltage will also increase, the negative resistance is only when the bulb warmup. Try to remove one ballast, it should decrease the voltage to a more normal level.
The electic starter does not give a large voltage spike if you reduce the H too much (High wattages ballasts or too many), and it will therefor only work with 150W bulbs. |
|
|
| Megaman |
| quote: | Originally posted by mathias
As far as I know, is the bulb a resistance and it does not change characteristic depending on frequency.
|
Hmm, I wonder where I got that from, I don't remember.
| quote: | Originally posted by mathias
The electic starter does not give a large voltage spike if you reduce the H too much (High wattages ballasts or too many), and it will therefor only work with 150W bulbs. |
I'm running the bulb on 3x40W ballasts now, During startup though, I can't use more than 1 of them in order to get enough inductance (Henry) to start it. I'v also modified the starter a bit but it is still not good. I have to modify it almost every time after I have run the bulb to make it ignite again. My modifications are lot of trial and error because I'm not sure how it works.
The bulb gets around 115V and 1.2A when running. That would be around 140W which I think is good enough. I'm not sure wether it is good for the bulb though as it is spec. for 1.8A. It maby shortens the bulb life and changes its spectral output or something. |
|
|
| Guy Grotke |
I suggest you look at the waveform with an oscilloscope, to see what a standard MH magnetic core ballast does to the voltage over time. I know that standard fluorescent magnetic ballasts generate a high voltage spike in every half cycle. I think this is essential to get the ionized gas conducting. Then most of the current conduction takes place after the spike, until the dropout voltage is reached near the end of the half cycle.
If ionization is incomplete, I would expect that the lamp arc would have a higher than normal resistance. That would give you a higher voltage and lower current than normal: Pretty much what you are seeing. |
|
|
| mathias |
High Voltage spike in every half cycle ? Where does it come from ? You must shortcircuit the core ballast a little while to get a high voltage spike, this is the way the igniter work. The igniter stop working when the voltage drop across the bulb/fluorescentlight. When the igniter not is working, there are no other parts that can give a voltage spike. I have never read something about the need of a high voltage spike when the bulb is running, not yet anyway.
When the bulb was new the voltage was 96Volt and the current 1.6-1.7A and that seems right to me. I know that other discarge lamp will rise itīs running voltage when they get older, for instance HPS will rise itīs voltage with 170%.
A oscilloscope would be nice ! |
|
|
| pinkmouse |
:cop:
As I've said many times before, discharge lamps are very delicate, and misuse can cause them to explode. This includes incorrect current and voltage. Not to mention the fact that different ballasts may not be balanced leading current hogging and melt down. So I'm closing this thread. |
|
|
|
