| Making out the Pink Floyd lyrics, or how much can you really hear? - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| Netlist |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
I just listened to The Wall CD (the first one) and on track 10, 50 sec into it, a girl says "Hello". Right after that there is an echoing voice in left channel saying "Hello" again, sort of washed out with the music. |
I listened maybe 50 times to the girl saying "Hello" on a not too bad system. No way I can hear the second "Hello". Is it the echo of the room where she stands or does she really say "Hello" two times?
I can clearly hear the echo, some kind of hollow sound around the word. With headphones the voice is rather positioned a little bit left of centre and echoes out to the mid. An easy test was turning the headphone left to right and vice versa.
/Hugo |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Netlist
I listened maybe 50 times to the girl saying "Hello" on a not too bad system. No way I can hear the second "Hello". Is it the echo of the room where she stands or does she really say "Hello" two times?
I can clearly hear the echo, some kind of hollow sound around the word. With headphones the voice is rather positioned a little bit left of centre and echoes out to the mid. An easy test was turning the headphone left to right and vice versa.
/Hugo |
It's not girl's voice but it seems like a man repeats after her Hello. It is sort of modulated by a music, but i can clearly hear the word. I was using that track for years in some music assesments, on not so bad systems, but also never noticed it before.
What I noticed about my current setup that resolution is very much improved and lyrics are much easier to comprehend. It's almost done automatically, even if the music is in a background. Also on older recordings, the tape hiss is easily noticable at the start and end, something that never took my attention before.
I have 2 CDs that almost never sounded right: Talking Heads - Naked and John Lydon - Psychopath. This time they are quite right.
Another thing I noticed with volume transformers. Before it seemed like they sound perfect on classical material and jazz, but with electronic music they somehow dulled the top end. Since I started using batteries, they sound fine on everything. |
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| Nuuk |
I posted this once before but got no replies!
On The Pink Floyd album Dark Side of the Moon, on track two there is an airport announcement.
On a good system you can hear the flight number and three destinations. What are they? |
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| tbla |
| one of them's gotta be the moon......:D |
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| Netlist |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
On The Pink Floyd album Dark Side of the Moon, on track two there is an airport announcement.
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This is a tough one.
I managed to hear the second "hello" which to me is a synthesizer in some kind of tremolo arrangement.
Eric's "Oh funk" is neither a problem although I never heard it till now.
The airport and describing what is said is a far more difficult task.
From what you posted before I conclude that you can clearly ‘discramble’ the announcement?
The only thing I can come up with is a time announcement in Dutch: “kwart voor twee” and a flight number “Two One Five” The Dutch sentence is likely impossible so we will have to wait until Peter finds out what is said. He’s in the aircraft business after all. :devilr:
/Hugo |
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| lohk |
It is very clearly to hear on my well worn LP (bought 1974), but not to understand, I must admit. I probably would not even understand it on location of the recording too (because English is not my mother tongue...). But it sounds like much more flight numbers and destinations to me.
Do you understand what Clare Torry (?) says softly while singing in "The great gig in the sky" ?
I like very much the little joke speeding up the tape recorder by hand a little (more wobbling) at the end of that track. Maybe it was more slowing it down by hand during recording of the material and playing it back at correct speed. It could have happened unintentionally and than left...
This album is a musical and engineering masterpiece anyway. Besides the remarkable work done by Alan Parsons, Roger Waters introduced tape generated "3D" effects into pop music, which were never heard before outside the electroacoustic music community. They were developed much earlier by composers like Pierre Henry in the fifties or Francois Bayle in the sixties in Paris.
Klaus |
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| Netlist |
| quote: | Originally posted by lohk
Do you understand what Clare Torry (?) says softly while singing in "The great gig in the sky" ?
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You better not...
/Hugo :) |
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| Nuuk |
| I won't comment on what peole hear as it will 'spoil' things for others but I must admit that I hadn't detected any Dutch. If there is some Dutch there we will have to rely on a Dutch speaker with a good hi-fi to tell us what is being said. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
I posted this once before but got no replies!
On The Pink Floyd album Dark Side of the Moon, on track two there is an airport announcement.
On a good system you can hear the flight number and three destinations. What are they? |
It is track 3 on my disk. I can hear 255, but the destinations are not clear. But then again, English isn't my first language;) |
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| ronc |
Well Peter i speak 2 languages, english and bad english.
ron |
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| tbla |
| if you play backwards those words - it's very clear that it's roger saying "one day i'm gonna kill you dave".......;) |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | Do you understand what Clare Torry (?) says softly while singing in "The great gig in the sky" ? |
"I'm still whispering your" and the last word sounds like "diary" but I'm not sure.
Any suggestions?
PD - I think that the track numbers are changed on one of the later versions of DSOTM. And I think that track one was divided into two which would make the one with the airport announcement track 3. |
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| Netlist |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
"I'm still whispering your" and the last word sounds like "diary" but I'm not sure.
Any suggestions?
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I happen to know exactly what is said but only the word whispering is correct. :) Like I said before, in the spirit of the song, you better not hear it. (hint, hint) :D
As this is part of the fun, here’s my attempt.
After carefully listening to the airport section I came up with some fragments.
…your passport’s ready…the reason why…customs…255 to Rome…fields…May I have your attention please
I’ll tell you later about the used equipment. (Nothing fancy) Anyone in for another attempt?
Oh, by the way I have the feeling this is rather off topic. If these “Pink Floyd Lyrics” should be moved to a separate thread, feel free to do so.
/Hugo |
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| Nuuk |
I agree this is rather off topic but I'll leave that one to the moderators!
OK, another listen and now I think that I can hear "Are you still whispering you're dying".
I wonder if PF expected people to be discussing these lyrics 30 years later! |
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| ALW |
Whilst this is all rather pointless within the context of enjoying the music the airport announcement is an interesting little test.
The general lack of clarity, particularly the attack to explosive consonants makes some words much harder to distinguish.
Anyway, here's what I can hear easily, with ... for the missing bits: -
"...your hand baggage and your passports ready...green...to customs and then to immigration. BA255 to Rome ...(destination ending in 'O' sound) and (destination ending in 'OS' sound). May I have your attention please etc."
I can't work out the last two destinations as the beginning consonants are unclear at present on CD.
I'll try the vinyl later to see if that helps.
Andy, |
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| Netlist |
I bet Peter is still substituting resistors while listening to the airport messages and at last will come up with the whole text.
I rather prefer not to reveal the 'whispering' until the Ultimate Gainclone gives us the final answer. ;)
/Hugo |
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| chrish |
Hmm, I can hear BA215 to Rome, Prato, Lagos. But then I am half deaf, listening to some old gear I am too embarrassed to mention (am building a gainclone and Ariel speakers to replace)...
;) |
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| MWP |
| quote: | Originally posted by ALW
"...your hand baggage and your passports ready...green...to customs and then to immigration. BA255 to Rome ...(destination ending in 'O' sound) and (destination ending in 'OS' sound). May I have your attention please etc."
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Not quite... i make out:
"...your hand baggage and your passports ready, follow the green line to customs and then to immigration. BA215 to Rome Via (somthing, sounds like biels)... May I have your attention please..." |
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| ALW |
Yep, i reckon you're right with the 'green line' bit and 255 was a typo on my part, it is BA215 as you say.
I think upon further listening you're right about the 'Rome via' bit too, it's much easier once someone puts some words in the bits you can't make out!
Andy. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by ALW
I think upon further listening you're right about the 'Rome via' bit too, it's much easier once someone puts some words in the bits you can't make out! |
Yeah. And I don't know that making out words and lyrics is necessarily an indication that the system is better. In my own experience, there have been numerous times when lyrics I've listened to on much better systems but couldn't make out will jump out perfectly clear while I'm listening in the shower using a cheap Sony table radio.
And just the other day I had a similar experience with a song my niece was playing an MP3 of on her computer using a pair of cheap plastic multimedia speakers.
You know how your peripheral vision is much more sensitive to light and movement and how you can often pick things out not by looking directly at it, but by looking rather way from it? It's sort of the same with me and song lyrics. If I'm listening intently, even repeatedly, it's often hopeless. But when my aural "focus" is just slightly away from the song, it often hits me clear as a bell.
se |
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| SY |
| IIRC from my ham radio days, speech intelligibility is increased with severe band limiting (300-3000 Hz) and some compression. Peak clipping, too, perhaps. |
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| Jocko Homo |
To Rome......Cairo.......Naples", if memory serves.
Why does anyone care??
Go buy this, and stop fretting: |
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| ALW |
| quote: | | And I don't know that making out words and lyrics is necessarily an indication that the system is better. |
Hey for once I agree, hence my comment about how irrelevant this was to the music.
In fact this sort of thing is the worst excess of the HiFi disease, listening to sounds, not music.
It does give some indication of the ability to seperate parts of the mix and of resolution, but unless it all gels together, it's pointless.
| quote: | | IIRC from my ham radio days, speech intelligibility is increased with severe band limiting (300-3000 Hz) and some compression |
This often has more to do with maximising output power levels when using suppressed carrier transmission methods, or modulation levels and S/N on other forms.
The bandwidth limit is a necessity due to the allowable occupied bandwidth, but I can't say that the limit ever increased intelligibility within the context of audio only. In fact the dynamic changes often give more audible clues to the speech than when compressed, providing S/N ratio's are good.
Jocko, it's on my Christmas list ;)
Andy. |
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| ALW |
Jocko's right.
I've just listened to it via the quaint and antiquated method of dragging a rock around a lump of plastic, and it's clear it is Rome, Cairo Naples.
Must sort that CD player out...
Andy. |
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| Peter Daniel |
It sounds like Rome, Cairo and Naples to me too.
And Steve Eddy just made a point why DBLT don't work properly and proove nothing:;)| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
You know how your peripheral vision is much more sensitive to light and movement and how you can often pick things out not by looking directly at it, but by looking rather way from it? It's sort of the same with me and song lyrics. If I'm listening intently, even repeatedly, it's often hopeless. But when my aural "focus" is just slightly away from the song, it often hits me clear as a bell.
se |
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| Nuuk |
| I agree that focussing on one aspect of the sound is no way to assess a good hi-fi but a good system should be able to retrieve the last ounce of detail and the examples quoted in this thread are a good yardstick. |
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| Jocko Homo |
Celebrate Ramadan: buy it today.
Careful.......with that axe......Eugene.
(BTW: I remembered the words from my vinyl days. Not sure I have listened to my CD copy yet.)
Jocko |
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| Netlist |
To me it’s all part of the fun of diy. It’s just like discussing a part of an amp, a speaker or whatever component in a chain. Except there are some more emotions and fewer maths.
For who might be interested, the Pink Floyd album has been of great influence for me and certainly for many other people here. I was 15 then and one can easily imagine what an impact it had on our young generation. I’m still happy I grow up with the music of those days. Beatles, Stones, Floyd to name a few big ones.
It happens to be the 30th anniversary and the album has also been released on SACD (Which I don’t own).
And yes, I fully enjoyed listening to all the tracks again, not only the airport piece, not only ‘The Great Gig In The Sky’ which gave me the shivers again when hearing it. I enjoyed unpacking the old records (don’t ask me why I have three copies), cleaning them and my cartridge to get the best sound out of them. I even recorded some pieces on the hard disk to prevent the record from being damaged from repeating same tracks. I also enjoyed doing some research, finding lyrics on the net, which revealed that Floyd is still very alive and kicking. It’s amazing how many people are still passionate by this music. Don’t get me wrong here, I love all kind of music and I’m certainly not a Floyd adept, neither a nostalgic.
So, still for the interested, here’s what I found.
| quote: | The Great Gig in the Sky Lyrics
"And I am not frightened of dying, any time will do, I
don't mind. Why should I be frightened of dying?
There's no reason for it, you've gotta go sometime."
"If you can hear this whispering you are dying."
"I never said I was frightened of dying."
(Instrumental) |
You can find this a hundred times on the net.
Years ago I read a paper about ‘The Great Gig’. It described very well the Five Stages of the Dying Process Replace the religious parts with whatever you like ;)
When in a “good“:D mood it’s even nicer to listen to The Great Gig with this wisdom in mind, for what it’s worth.
Some people link the whole album to the Wizard of Oz, also for what it’s worth.
| quote: | On The Run
(Gilmour, Waters)
[unintelligible] baggage, your passports ready, and follow the green line to customs and then to immigration.
BA two - one - five to Rome, Prado, Naples.
May I have your attention please, customs will be receiving passengers for BA two-one-five to Rome, Prado, Naples...
Live for today, gone tomorrow, that's me.
(Instrumental) |
Source
Here is a nice and touchy review.
/Hugo – It’s only audio (Jean-Paul) ;) |
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| roddyama |
During that PA anouncement when he is running around and you can hear his foot steps, what kind of sound stage does your system provide.
With my DSOM LP I can hear him running not only left and right, but clearly front and back. The LP provides the mind eye view of a large empty terminal with depth as well as width. This is not so apparent on my CD, even the new 30 year non-SACD version. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
And Steve Eddy just made a point why DBLT don't work properly and proove nothing:;) |
Eh? What has what I said to do with blind listening?
se |
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| Peter Daniel |
How about this:| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
If I'm listening intently, even repeatedly, it's often hopeless. But when my aural "focus" is just slightly away from the song, it often hits me clear as a bell.
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
How about this:
Originally posted by Steve Eddy
If I'm listening intently, even repeatedly, it's often hopeless. But when my aural "focus" is just slightly away from the song, it often hits me clear as a bell. |
Ok. I'm afraid I still don't see what it has to do with blind listening.
se |
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| Peter Daniel |
You said that "If I'm listening intently, even repeatedly, it's often hopeless".
Isn't intent and repeatibility a requirement for DBLT? If so, in your case the tests might not work properly, as your judgement is hopeless under such conditions.
I'm not making it up, just trying to come to certain conclusions based on what you've said previously;) |
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| MWP |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Yeah. And I don't know that making out words and lyrics is necessarily an indication that the system is better..... |
Agreed.
My system is far from "high-quality", yet i could make out those lyrics quite clearly.
Playing a HQ encoded MP3 from a PC soundcard, a crappy preamp, noninv gainclone and cheapy speakers (philips tweeters, 5" response woofer).
Although, i have always thought i have "good ears"... i know i can still hear ~18Khz clearly and those 16khz tones in recently mastered CDs which most people dont notice **** me off. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
You said that "If I'm listening intently, even repeatedly, it's often hopeless".
Isn't intent and repeatibility a requirement for DBLT? If so, in your case the tests might not work properly, as your judgement is hopeless under such conditions.
I'm not making it up, just trying to come to certain conclusions based on what you've said previously;) |
Blind listening simply means that the listener doesn't know the identity of what they're listening to. Hasn't anything to do with HOW they go about the actual listening. They can listen in the same fashion they normally do when listening for differences.
And for what it's worth, we're talking here about the intelligibility of language which involves rather different brain function than qualitative assessment of music. And in my own experience, I've never noticed qualitative differences leaping out at me like song lyrics have when listening "peripherally." So for me anyway the phenomenon seems to be a language thing.
se |
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| Nuuk |
I partially agree that how clearly you can hear lyrics and background sounds does not mean that you are listening to a 'good' system.
In my own case, I find it hard to distinguish certain sounds. For instance, the major stumbling block that I have with learning another language (apart from being English ;) ) is that when listening to that language, I cannot easily detect where one word ends and the next begins.
The problem also affects how well I hear detail in music but there is no doubt that some systems make it easier to hear certain sounds and lyrics than others and I consider that a plus point.
I still say that the IGC's best quality is the clarity with which it presents music to the listener and that is why I think that this thread is not so 'off-topic'!
After listening to the airport announcement the last couple of evenings, I have then listened to the rest of the DSOTM album and enjoyed it as much as the first time I heard it nearly 30 years ago so if we have encouraged anybody to get it out and play it again, that is no bad thing.
Of coursse, we won't enjoy music if we sit there litening for one particular detail, but learning to pick out detail is a part of learning to assess hi-fi more objectively and should not be dismissed entirely.
One more link to add to the ones posted by netlink is the DSOTHM 30th Anniversary site . |
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| Netlist |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
I agree that focussing on one aspect of the sound is no way to assess a good hi-fi but a good system should be able to retrieve the last ounce of detail... |
This is what I wanted to find out: was Peter with his exceptional ears and Gainclone able to hear it. It would have made me build a Gainclone. ;)
To compare with my system:
First few listenings were done with Technics SL1210/Stanton 681/
Super **** phono preamp from an old Sanyo JCX2200 receiver/Output receiver to B&W802 Series one. Too much background noise from the workplace. Second tests: Same turntable/cartridge/preamp but then to the line input of a Soundblaster Live recorded on hard disk with Cooledit. Headphones: Beyer Dynamic DT990Pro. The headphone out of the receiver sounded better then the headphone out from the soundblaster :D Played a bit with the Cooledit filters to no reveal.| quote: | | In fact this sort of thing is the worst excess of the HiFi disease, listening to sounds, not music. |
I agree completely and this is usually not the way I listen to music. Indeed, listening to sound kills the music. ;) On the other hand, don't you think that Alan Parsons had to listen very analytically when making such a 3D masterpiece?| quote: | Originally posted by roddyama
During that PA anouncement when he is running around and you can hear his foot steps, what kind of sound stage does your system provide.
With my DSOM LP I can hear him running not only left and right, but clearly front and back. The LP provides the mind eye view of a large empty terminal with depth as well as width. |
I can’t compare with the CD but this is truly a nice example of perfect 3D audio. Roxy Music’s Love Is The drug is a fine example of the opposite. There is almost no soundstage in the footsteps at the beginning. (CD-version)| quote: | | This is not so apparent on my CD, even the new 30 year non-SACD version. |
I bought the remastered version of Berlin a while ago. It's lifeless and I'm rather disappointed. Same applies probably to this album.
I wonder why an old record still 'seems' to sound better then a high tech remastered version?
/Hugo |
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| Nuuk |
Netlist, I would say that if you haven't heard a Gainclone, then you will have quite a surprise when you do hear one and listen to familiar recordings through it.
One of my friends who had no idea what a chip amp was heard mine one evening and has now built his own and another set for one of his friends who uses them in a hi-end system.
The friend had tried quite a few expensive amplifiers in his system but the IGC's are head-and-shoulders above anything that he had tried before.
Both my friends (and others who have heard the IGC's) agree that they dig out more detail and 'bring to life' many albums that had been long-since left on the shelf with other eqipment.
I also agree that it is easy to fall into the trap of listening for one or two aspects of the 'hi-fi presentation' and missing out on the enjoyment of the music. A correspondent of mine who is a concert pianist tells me that it is difficult for him to listen to music without becoming totally focussed on the technical performance!
The truth is that if you are putting together a hi-fi system DIY style, you do need to hold these 'test' sessions to get the best from your system. The knack is knowing when to 'switch off' from being a builder and just being a listener for the sake of enjoying the music.
I also think that Steve Eddy was misunderstood when he said that he best heard details when not concentrating on them. That is true for most of us as our 'subconsious' mind is many time more powerful than the 'conscious' mind, and not so distracted by other thoughts! Steve wasn't saying that he would audition a hi-fi in that way. |
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| Netlist |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Netlist, I would say that if you haven't heard a Gainclone, then you will have quite a surprise when you do hear one and listen to familiar recordings through it. |
You beat me to it. Well then, I'll build one. :) I probably will not build the High-Peter-Tech version, still you guys made me very curious.
| quote: |
I also think that Steve Eddy was misunderstood when he said that he best heard details when not concentrating on them. That is true for most of us as our 'subconsious' mind is many time more powerful than the 'conscious' mind, and not so distracted by other thoughts! Steve wasn't saying that he would audition a hi-fi in that way. |
Could be, although closing my eyes helps a lot in concentrating.
It helps probably because then a part of the brain doesn't have to focus on what we see and the imaginary part starts working.
A fine example is the 'man with the footsteps' from Rod. Listen to it with your eyes closed and you will see the man walk.
/Hugo |
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| jcarr |
Steve:
>We're talking here about the intelligibility of language which involves rather different brain function than qualitative assessment of music.<
Really? I studied classical music and compositional theory, and to me, at least Western classical music is a language of communication with a logical system. When I listen to music, I am not only listening for sounds, but noting how chord, scale, rhythm, tempi etc. give shape to the piece, and also how each note, bar or phrase either works with the logic of the piece or against it. It's very much like listening to a play, noting the actors' words, inflection and phrasing, comprehending the dialog, and judging whether the actor is doing a good job or not. For me, it is far harder to judge how good of a job the actor is doing when the language is one that I am unfamiliar with; and when I listen to music, how I get into a piece depends strongly on how well I can grasp the composer and performer's intent or not.
The faults that I find with the majority of audio systems are usually tied to the various hurdles that they place in the way of my being able to fully comprehend and appreciate the music. The more I can comprehend, the more I approach the music like a conversation in a familiar language. All too frequently, however, the music remains at the collection-of-sounds level, and to me it feels like trying to make sense of a discussion in a foreign language.
Nuuk:
>A correspondent of mine who is a concert pianist tells me that it is difficult for him to listen to music without becoming totally focused on the technical performance!<
I concur. Especially when the performance is of a piece that I know, or on my preferred instrument (the piano), it is difficult to listen to the music without mentally playing along and/or critiquing the performance. Same thing happens whether the performance is live or recorded.
regards, jonathan carr |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by jcarr
All too frequently, however, the music remains at the collection-of-sounds level, and to me it feels like trying to make sense of a discussion in a foreign language.
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That is very true. Up to quite recently this is what my system was like. It only produced collection of sounds and the true emotions that each sound can produce wasn't obvious enough, (enough to be noticed by me when listening).
It is changed now;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Blind listening simply means that the listener doesn't know the identity of what they're listening to. Hasn't anything to do with HOW they go about the actual listening. They can listen in the same fashion they normally do when listening for differences.
And for what it's worth, we're talking here about the intelligibility of language which involves rather different brain function than qualitative assessment of music. And in my own experience, I've never noticed qualitative differences leaping out at me like song lyrics have when listening "peripherally." So for me anyway the phenomenon seems to be a language thing.
se |
But when conducting a listening test isn't a person concentrating on a correct choice? This can very well influence his perception and the way HOW he listens. While some people can listen in a same fashion (as not under test), most of the untrained or unacustomed ones probably can't.
And how are you so sure that this is is taken care by a different brain function? But even if it is, the other brain function can be effected in exactly the same way.
Coming back to the subject of information retrival from recordings, it is true that understanding lyrics may indicate something about the system (and it definitely does IMO), but what I like the most is when certain sounds and cues are jumping at me spontaniously when I don't even try to concentrate on noticing them (like listening to an old recording being under impression of doing it for the first time). For example, when listening to ‘The Great Gig’, did you noticed how the pitch is changing at the end of the track, almost like somebody was intentionally changing the speed of a tape. I never noticed it before, and when I listen now it is so obvious that I can't miss it. |
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| ronc |
I dont believe you should " try " to hear details. Either they are there or they are not.
Every now and then i haul out either the PP 6bq5 tube or the marantz 2230 amp and hook em up, gives me a frame of reference.
Believe me they dont stay hooked up long.Sounds muddy and slow and i use to be a die hard tube and marantz 22xx fan.
ron |
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| RichardN |
Pink Floyd 'lyrics.
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the backwards recorded lyrics on side 2 (vinyl) of the wall.
Track is "Empty Spaces" and I've just found the lyrics off the web.
[backwards message:]
"Congratulations, You have just discovered the secret message.
Please send your answer to 'Old Pink',
Care of the funny farm, Chalfont..." - Spoken By Roger
[...interrupted...]
"Roger, Caroline's on the phone..." - Unknown Voice
When I was young, I recorded the track onto a cassette then turned round the spindles to play it backwards. (Later I had a video recorder that didn't quite mute the audio when playing backwards, now I have access to Adobe Audition...)
Richard (I'm actually in Chalfont at the moment, whether this is actually the funny farm is arguable.) |
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| ronc |
Funny, i played it backwords and heard the judge giving me a divorce decree,shows to go ya.
ron |
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| ir |
speaking of Pink Floyd...
i've never really been a great fan (i'm 22, PF is before my time) however since i've built my LMxxxx based amp i listen to it all the time. I've heard DSOTM and The Wall through some fairly decent systems courtesy of a friend of mine (he's a Pink Floyd nut) and i tell you what, he's gonna be in tears when he hears the quality of such a seemingly inferior 'chip' amplifier.
Fed by my Technics SL-P999 CD player the sound is so clear you hear all sorts of details you've never heard before. Like string arrangements, hand drums and even unintentional scrapes on the guitar strings
National really hit the nail on the head with the Overture series!
(p.s don't know if you've seen this but they have a 3 channel overture chip now for the simplest surround setup ever, pick a decent chip for the main LR and whack in an LM4781 for the centre/rear channels. brilliant!) |
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| IanHarvey |
To me, it sounds like this:
"Get your hand-baggage and your passports ready and pass the green flight to customs and enwenucation. BA 2 1 5 to Rome, Prado (?), Naples. Barry Rotesh(?) please, clear through customs and ??? passengers. BA 2 1 5 to Rome Prado Naples. Please receive(?) your presents(?) ..."
NB - it's not "follow" the green flight or line, and it doesn't sound much like "immigration" either.
Interestingly enough: I was listening to this on my Sennheiser headphones plugged into my scumbag computer soundcard, and found it was more intelligible if I EQ'd out everything under 500Hz and above 6Khz! I think this demonstrates that maximum intelligibility is equivalent to maximum listening pleasure.
Cheers
IH |
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| SY |
| quote: | | But when conducting a listening test isn't a person concentrating on a correct choice? This can very well influence his perception and the way HOW he listens. While some people can listen in a same fashion (as not under test), most of the untrained or unacustomed ones probably can't. |
Besed on the professional work I've done with organoleptic sensory tests and kinesthetic testing, plus amateur work on sound, I can confidently answer, "No. Unlikely. And generally not." Either you hear a difference or you don't. For most people, egos aren't on the line, there's no "test pressure," we're just trying to get at an accurate answer about thresholds, perception, and distinction. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| But what if a $10,000 prize is to be won, when the answer is correct? Ask Millwood for details;) |
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| tom1356 |
Peter,
Still happy with the new TVC I see.
It's amazing to hear new things on recordings you have heard a thousand times before isn't it?
Mine keeps getting better with time. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by tom1356
Mine keeps getting better with time. |
I also noticed the same about mine;)
We were doing some comparisons today with batteries supplies, and the effect can be compared to a regualar active preamp and transformers.
Batteries bring a similar kind of improvement. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
But when conducting a listening test isn't a person concentrating on a correct choice? This can very well influence his perception and the way HOW he listens. While some people can listen in a same fashion (as not under test), most of the untrained or unacustomed ones probably can't. |
The research done using known audible phenomena indicate that once a listener knows how to identify a difference (i.e. knows what to listen for) they can readily identify those differences under blind conditions.
This is why listener training is so important when testing across population samples.
I'm sure that if you just throw someone into a test without their having any sort of bearings or idea what to listen for, they would likely perform miserably. As jj used to say, it's easy to get null results, even with phenomena that are known to be audible. The hard part is getting positive results. And that's why the more serious research places such an emphasis on listener training.
Now, in the case of the cable directionality tests we're planning to run, we have at least one person who has indicated that he hears a specific difference when cables are reversed (i.e. image shifting) so he already knows what to listen for. And the research indicates that if this image shifting is in fact an actual audible phenomenon, he should be able to reliably detect it even under blind conditions.
| quote: | | And how are you so sure that this is is taken care by a different brain function? But even if it is, the other brain function can be effected in exactly the same way. |
What I said was that language processing was done in a different part of the brain. And I don't know that you can necessarily extrapolate to other parts of the brain.
| quote: | | Coming back to the subject of information retrival from recordings, it is true that understanding lyrics may indicate something about the system (and it definitely does IMO), but what I like the most is when certain sounds and cues are jumping at me spontaniously when I don't even try to concentrate on noticing them (like listening to an old recording being under impression of doing it for the first time). For example, when listening to ‘The Great Gig’, did you noticed how the pitch is changing at the end of the track, almost like somebody was intentionally changing the speed of a tape. I never noticed it before, and when I listen now it is so obvious that I can't miss it. |
Yes. Once you know what to look for, it's easily spotted.
Rather like two paintings which differ only by a single brush stroke. Once you've identified that difference, even under blind conditions you'll be able to pick it out.
But I still don't know that we can establish that initially noticing these things necessarily is any indication of system quality versus simply listening differently.
se |
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| SY |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
But what if a $10,000 prize is to be won, when the answer is correct? Ask Millwood for details;) |
That's a demonstration, not research. I seriously doubt that Stanley Lipshitz or David Clark offered their test subjects large sums of money if they were able to tell A from B. I know that I don't; we pay our panelists a certain fee regardless of their results.
Brings up an interesting point- if you put some contingent money on the line, might it not increase the chances of detection? |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
Brings up an interesting point- if you put some contingent money on the line, might it not increase the chances of detection? |
Mmmm. Dunno. When we're under stress, we seem to be in a more sensitive state of awareness. Let's get two panels of listeners and give the listeners on one panel a couple big lines of coke and see how they do compared to the others. :)
se |
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| SY |
| We tried that one back in the '70s with a couple of VERY well-known speaker designers. Based on the stuff they were selling, I'd say that coke was not a positive factor. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
We tried that one back in the '70s with a couple of VERY well-known speaker designers. Based on the stuff they were selling, I'd say that coke was not a positive factor. |
What a waste of good coke. :)
se |
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| ALW |
| quote: | | NB - it's not "follow" the green flight or line, and it doesn't sound much like "immigration" either |
I hate to get embroiled in this, bearing in mind my previous comments, but it definitely does sound like "follow", and there's no doubt at all it's "immigration".
I suggest trying something other than a 'scumbag' sound card ;-)
Andy. |
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| Richard C |
| At the end of DSOTM just before the heartbeat starts and buried in the noise can be heard a few bars of something that sounds a bit like 'Ticket to Ride'. It's so faint that it can't possibly be intentional but where did it come from and what is it? |
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| Peter Daniel |
| Maybe they were recording over The Beatles tapes?;) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | something that sounds a bit like 'Ticket to Ride'. It's so faint that it can't possibly be intentional but where did it come from and what is it? |
It's not all that faint but is clearly distinguishable...
My guess is they meant it as a cynical joke?
| quote: | | Maybe they were recording over The Beatles tapes? |
Now that's sarcasm, Peter.:smash:
Cheers,;) |
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| Da5id4Vz |
Could be print through on recycled tape, If I'm not mistaken (somebody should check) they were both recorded at Abby Road. I think Allen Parsons may have been an assistant engineer on both projects too.
Perhaps the reason we keep coming back to these recordings is that they were done so well. The equipment they were using wasn’t fully evolved, but the engineers would stop at nothing to make things work well. I’ve often thought that they did a lot of recordings at 30 IPS, or they did some kind of a Robert Johnson, crossroads deal with El Diablo. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | The equipment they were using wasn’t fully evolved, |
Beg your pardon, Sir?
If only equipment quality and engineer quality was half as good nowadays...
Not fully evolved, my ***.:rolleyes:
And no they weren't both recorded at Abbey Road and no Allen Parsons wasn't even within miles...geeeezzzz....................
Cheers,;) |
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| Da5id4Vz |
| quote: | Alan Parsons was born in London, England on December 20, 1948.
After showing early promise as a musician - learning piano, guitar and flute as a child, Alan started to take on the role of listener rather than the player. Although still working as a musician in the late sixties he turned his attention to a career at the famous Abbey Road Studios in London, where he was fortunate enough to have participated in the last works of The Beatles. He was assistant engineer on "Let It Be" and the brilliant "Abbey Road" album.
This was only the beginning however; As the engineering mastermind behind Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" album, Alan became highly sought after as one of the new breed of creative engineers.
|
http://www.theavenueonline.info/site1/bios/parsons.htm
But what the hell do now I'm just an old fart with a failing memory and a google tool bar in my browser.
My point about the equipment was that it was OK, but it didn’t make great recordings on its own, the level of intimacy that those guys had with the engineering of the recordings was phenomenal and still reeks to me of a Faustian bargain.
I have contended for years that it takes great engineers and producers to make great recordings. These guys can make good recordings with almost anything. The engineer to the media they have available. |
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| Nuuk |
Getting back to the lyrics (of the 'hidden' kind), it's interesting that for all our collective efforts, we still haven't agreed on what is exactly said in the airport sequence.
I have always heard the flight number as 215. Interestingly, after reading somebody else stating it was "flight 255" I listened again and heard it as "flight 255". However the next day I listened again and heard "flight 215"! Just goes to show how much influence the power of suggestion has!
Now, if the three destinations are Rome, Prado and Naples, that means the flight goes to Rome then Spain and finally back to Italy. which is not logical or likely.
Of course, the flight announcement could be a recording of the real thing or 'manufactured'in the stdio. The current BA flight 215 goes from London to Boston.
There's little doubt that the first is Rome. I say that the second is probably Cairo but could also be Chicago. And no matter how many times that I listen, the third sounds more like Phoenix than anything else.
Yes, there are web sites with these details on but are they correct? |
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| Netlist |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Just goes to show how much influence the power of suggestion has!
|
Correct. In one of my
earlier posts I stated that the word 'whispering' was the only correct one. Till then I never listened to "The Great Gig..." to hear that word. I simply took it from the net.
In the following post your attempt includes the word.
Now I'm pretty sure that "If you can hear this whispering you are dying." was never used in the song.
Only "I never said I was frightened of dying." is very understandable. (To me)
The flight announcement was (According to the Floyd forum ) 'Originally recorded for a comedy show'
IMHO the best way to find out is a good record and a good cartridge. One of these days I try the Stanton 881. :)
/Hugo |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | IMHO the best way to find out is a good record and a good cartridge. One of these days I try the Stanton 881. |
Well I had better get my TT back into the system then. At present it is sitting on a shelf immediately behind my Open baffle speakers so I had better re-locate it.
I am certain that "whispering" is one of the words on the 'Great Gig' track.
Well, if the flight announcement was manufactured then it need not conform to logic! So could it be "Rome, Chicago and Phoenix"?
Come on guys, there must be more than a few of us with this album - that I am certain of! |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Come on guys, there must be more than a few of us with this album - that I am certain of! |
I connected my CD-Pro transport and had another listen;) I still hear 255 and it's definitely Rome, Prado. The last destination sounds like dales, gales or whales and I can't figure it out.
The whishpering is "I never said I was frightened of dying" (pretty much distinguishable now). |
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| RichardN |
BA215. British Airways didn't exist until 1974 (When BOAC and BEA merged), so I guess that BA215 would have been a BEA (British European Airways) flight, ruling out Chicago.
PS There is also a version of On The Run on the EMI 75th Anniversary complilation record "A Voice To Remember". Sounds much better (more deep bass for one thing) than either my pressing of DSOTM or the remastered CD version. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | I connected my CD-Pro and had another listen I still hear 255 and it's definitely Rome, Prado. |
Oddly enough Prado as an airline destination doesn't exist.
The only Prado I know of in Europe is the Prado National Museum of Madrid.
Wouldn't it be easier to listen over a good headphone set?
Cheers,;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
| Oddly enough my system doesn't include headphones;) |
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| Jocko Homo |
I heard an interview with the Floyd, many years ago. They were not amused that Parsons was trying to take so much credit for DSOTM. He started at EMI as a kid who loaded tape onto the machines, and slowly worked his way up the chain.
EMI rotated engineers on their projects, and it just happened to be Parsons turn on that recording.
The producer is the one responsible for the sound and "feel" of the recording, not the engineer.
Jocko |
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| IanHarvey |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Wouldn't it be easier to listen over a good headphone set?
|
Yes. I gave it a quick play on my bedroom system and decided the main problems were ambient background noise (not least screaming 2 y.o. daughters) and possibly room reverb masking the details. Headphones solved both of these.
My other finding was that the foreground VCS3 noises are in the way, and you get much better intelligibility with some drastic EQ (bass and top cut, as mentioned previously). It's worth trying this if you have the facilities, or maybe I can post a WAV file snippet.
The point is that you may well find this particular piece more intelligible if you played it over, say, narrow-bandwidth PA horns than a decent full-range system. Tweaking your system on the basis of this test may well make it more unpleasant for music listening.
Cheers
IH |
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| ronc |
One of the problems of this thread is a lot of the resolution and sensitivity of a detectable signal is largly speaker dependant(and source naturally).A faster light cone large magnet (lower Qts) driver naturally has more resolution.I have done A/B with different speakers and IMHO the winner is single driver lower Qts horns.Of course ths may also be dependant on the quality of the speaker , lets face it Wilson audio puppies vrs some POS from walmart?
ron |
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| Netlist |
I too have a pretty decent filtered piece. It's about 500k so someone should be able to post it on a website, I can mail it if you want.
Of course we don't want trouble with copyrights.
Any thoughts?
We could always mail Roger Waters himself of course. :clown:
/Hugo :) |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | The whishpering is "I never said I was frightened of dying" (pretty much distinguishable now). |
Peter, we were not talking about that bit on the intro to the track. About two and a half minutes into the track (if I remember correctly) a female voice says something.
| quote: | | BA215. British Airways didn't exist until 1974 (When BOAC and BEA merged), so I guess that BA215 would have been a BEA (British European Airways) flight, ruling out Chicago. |
Thats right Richard. I had the same thought while out this afternoon. However, if the announcement is manufactured as has been reported here, then it would not rule out any destination as they could have said what they liked. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nuuk
Peter, we were not talking about that bit on the intro to the track. About two and a half minutes into the track (if I remember correctly) a female voice says something.
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I was talking about the bit at 3:30 into the track. There is no way I can hear any other whishpering on the track on my CD, which could mean I'm not dying yet;) |
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| IanHarvey |
Here's a heavily filtered WAV of the flight number. Make up your own mind, but I'm pretty convinced this is 215 rather than 255.
Cheers
IH
As for the copyright, I'm led to believe posting this counts as 'fair use' - under at least some jurisdictions you are allowed to use small excerpts for the purposes of criticism (in the 'literary' sense). |
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| IanHarvey |
| Oops - someone snarfed my attachment. |
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| IanHarvey |
Here's the 'customs and something' bit. 'Immigration' would make sense, but this sounds like a 5-syllable word to me.
Cheers
IH |
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| faustian bargin |
| quote: | Originally posted by Da5id4Vz
.... still reeks to me of a Faustian bargain.
.... |
*blink* (wakes up from peaceful slumber) urrr? someone say my name?
:xeye: |
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| Da5id4Vz |
| Only in admiration. |
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| Da5id4Vz |
I think I gave credit to the producer too. I only mentioned AP because of the coincidence that he had worked with both acts in the same studios. Its a bit of trivia (apparently more common knowledge than I had thought) that’s always amused me as did Peters print through comments that lured me into this conversation.
I think I read the same article. REP or Mix or something like that.
But... Ive always been suspect of the artist who claims to have made a great album in spite of their producer/engineer. Ive heard a lot of whine-ning from some artists (not the Floyd boys in this case) about how the label made them work with some hack that doesn’t understand their vision and whose only qualification to be in the room with them was their dozen or so platinum albums. Funny though its usually the only decent recording that they will ever make.
In this case I still believe, that this recording is what it is because the artists, engineer and yes what’s his name the producer too all did their things very well and at the same time.
I'm getting the feeling here that I'm just reiterating stuff that everyone else has already considered and doesn’t care about. The conversation thread was centered on the lyrics not how they got there.
-Ciao |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Here's a heavily filtered WAV of the flight number. |
This is really tough...I had it on a loop for a while and somehow I hear "gate" 255 or 215 (not sure).
Does anyone know whether Heathrow or Gatwick have that may at all?
Iv'e no idea if that subtrack was recorded live somewhere but it sure does sound like an airport PA system to me.
Cheers,;) |
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| Jocko Homo |
Someone will want to know what the guy is ordering in "Alan's Psychedelic Breakfast".
Jocko |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Someone will want to know what the guy is ordering in "Alan's Psychedelic Breakfast". |
I want to know what's in the bolognese sauce...
Nah...kidding.
It does tell you a little about system resolution though and that's the part that has me captured.
Frank's digging up his ole Stax Lambda Pros now...;) |
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| Jocko Homo |
Varies from "red sauce with carrots" to "beef soup with cream". They all claim to be authentic.
You know us Italians......get 10 of us in a room, and you will get a dozen opinions.
Jocko |
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| Netlist |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Frank's digging up his ole Stax Lambda Pros now...;) |
Great thread; everyone start digging up his old gear... :)
In case of that Stax, think of me if you ever think of throwing it, giving it away or sell it. :devilr:
IMHO, Peter is correct with his 'Great Gig..' version.
/Hugo - just ordered 3 different pizza's.:cannotbe: |
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| RichardN |
Talking about airport announcements..
This is quite a funny thing. Some people posing as taxi drivers went up to the announcements desk and asked for some ficticious people to be paged. (apologies to everyone who has heard this before..)
http://www.frigger.de/humor/airport.doc |
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| JCoffey |
| quote: | Originally posted by RichardN
Talking about airport announcements..
This is quite a funny thing. Some people posing as taxi drivers went up to the announcements desk and asked for some ficticious people to be paged. (apologies to everyone who has heard this before..)
http://www.frigger.de/humor/airport.doc |
Geez you read my mind. I tried attaching that very one last night as a zip file but it was too big.
:D |
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| Nuuk |
Well I contacted some friends of mine who perform in a PF tribute band and their three destinations are Rome, Prato and Naples.
I understand that Prato is near Rome so the flight could go to Rome then Prato then Naples. or maybe it went to Rome, Prato in the same way that flights to London can be London, Heathrow or London, Gatwick!
Interestingly my friends did not know about the 'whispering' on 'Great Gig In The Sky'! |
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| GooseCreature |
[QUOTE]Interestingly enough: I was listening to this on my Sennheiser headphones plugged into my scumbag computer soundcard, and found it was more intelligible if I EQ'd out everything under 500Hz and above 6Khz! I think this demonstrates that maximum intelligibility is equivalent to maximum listening pleasure.
now if hearing certain words and whispers defines the quality of a system yet its easier to hear these words getting rid of certain frequencies then perhaps these high quality systems are devoid of some frequencies in the first place which surely means they're not so high in the quality stakes as first thought!;)
As for one system being better than another it makes absolutely no difference as we all hear sounds through differently shaped ears of varying ages in different rooms in assortments of air pressures backed up with a plethora (lovely word:) ) of background noises!!
Advice!!! Build a IGC get a m8 to go buy you a cd player and speakers(getting him(or her) to remove all manufacturers identification marks) set up system, pop a Floyd disk in the tray, sit back, take a long draw from your Doobie, pipe or cup of tea, close one eye and what happens next is called music! enjoy!! |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | now if hearing certain words and whispers defines the quality of a system yet its easier to hear these words getting rid of certain frequencies then perhaps these high quality systems are devoid of some frequencies in the first place which surely means they're not so high in the quality stakes as first thought! |
No, the mark of a 'good' system is to be able to present the detail despite other information coming off the record or CD (at any frequency).
To say that a system can reveal the details discussed in this thread only because it removes other information (at the frequency extremes) is not necessarily correct!
And to state that the Gainclones are good enough to make any source/loudspeaker sound good is nothing but an advertisement for the 'box shifter' brigade.
Goosey, you have heard the IGC's that you built (which are exact copies of mine) in your friend's system. Are you saying that it sounded the same as my IGC system (with different CDP and speakers)? :whazzat: |
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| Netlist |
| quote: | | No, the mark of a 'good' system is to be able to present the detail despite other information coming off the record or CD (at any frequency). |
The correct term should be analytical IMHO.
I just sent the ‘airport’ piece to a technician from the Belgium radio.
I happen to know the guy and asked him to filter out the voice. :cool:
Let’s wait and see.
/Hugo :) |
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| GooseCreature |
Tsk Tsk Tsk Nuuk
The removal of manufacturers id is not saying that anything will sound good its taking the p**s out of psuedo blind test conditions( hence one eye shut ) ;-)
Unfortunately as your reply only amplifies, the problem is taking things far to seriously, the more serious you are to music the more analitical it will sound as your concert pianist chum and many people i know in music tend to find, i think the most amazing thing is that most muso's don't give a toss to sound quality as its the music they listen to not the carrier( not that i agree in the slightest ) The majority of live music sounds awful at best quite good in the sweet spot (tricky getting 5000 peeps in that spot) but you go because of the atmosphere, most musicians have been sat to close to a loud monitor or p.a. for too many years anyway they wouldn't know a good sound if it came up and bit them and i'm sure if Dave Gilmour decided to offer us another colaboration of agreeing Floyd members to another album he would make sure there were some barely audible samples for us to argue over for many years to come ( here's hoping )
So sit down relax take a chill pill and listen to the rythmn!! ( its between that cough and the engineer scratching his balls sound or is he eating a packet of crisps!!) |
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| Nuuk |
| quote: | | The removal of manufacturers id is not saying that anything will sound good its taking the p**s out of psuedo blind test conditions( hence one eye shut ) ;-) |
I'm not quite sure why we would want to ridicule blind listening tests!
| quote: | | As for one system being better than another it makes absolutely no difference as we all hear sounds through differently shaped ears of varying ages in different rooms in assortments of air pressures backed up with a plethora (lovely word ) of background noises!! |
Agreed to a point. But if the other factors that you quote have such an effect that you cannot differentiate between different equipment ("systems"), then why have you ever changed it?
The reason for this thread was to demonstrate the clarity of the IGC amps although there has also been a healthy academic interest in what the sounds on the DSOTM album did actually say.
Nobody has suggested (AFAIK) that this is the only yardstick for measuring hi-fi or the only way to listen to an album.
If it is a case of just listening to an album and enjoying the music then I can't see much reason for coming on a hi-fi forum.
I agree that musicality has more to do with rhythm and timing but I would also suggest that we listen to different types of music slightly differently.
For instance, listening to Diana Krall the main thing that you notice is 'the music' (ie melody) while listening to parts of PF albums, or Massive Attack etc, we are more entertained by the various aspects (ie sound effects) of the piece as much as the musical effect.
So while clarity is important in both types of music, it is for differing reasons. |
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| Netlist |
I've got two "Protool'ed" airport files, except I don't know where to post them.
One is about 350kb, the other one 550kb.
Anyone?
/Hugo :) |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Netlist
I've got two "Protool'ed" airport files, except I don't know where to post them.
One is about 350kb, the other one 550kb. |
If you ZIP them up, you can upload them here as a file attachment.
se |
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| Netlist |
Zipping the files still don't bring them under the 100k limit of DiyAudio.
I made myself a small site and uploaded the files there.
users.s k y n e t.be/netlist
Copy and paste the link. Remove the spaces and enjoy.
/Hugo :) |
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| carlosfm |
If something is recorded not to be understanded, then it won't be.
No matter what system.
But you can have an equalizer on your system with the midband pushed to the top and it won't make it a better system.
You may understand some sounds (voices) better, though.:D
But the whole thing will sound like ****.:bawling: |
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| evenbar |
After reading the posts on this topic and my own careful listening I think I've finally discerned the the following as the complete lyrics to "On The Run":
(Female airport announcer, announcing flights:
"Have your hand baggage and your passports ready and follow the green line to customs and then to immigration."
"BA215 to Rome via Prato, Naples."
"May I have your attention please."
"Cleared through customs will be recieving these passengers for BA215 to Rome, Prato, Naples."
"Then proceed to Gate Number Six."
"Have your tickets, hand baggage and your passports ready.")
"Live for today, gone tomorrow, that's me, ha-ha-haaaaaa!" |
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