| joan2 |
| maybe you can help me out, in one of our local sites, i found a thread wherein breaking-in or burning-in of power cords was mentioned as making audio gears sound better!!! and onother actually changed the power cable of his cd player to bigger size and reported improvements in sound, what can you say to all this claims??? any scientific reasons? i seem to be lost.... |
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| tg3 |
Some say yes, some say no, and some say they aren't sure.
YMMV. |
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| Christer |
Sure, just connect it between two wall outlets and make sure
you reverse one of the plugs. :) :)
:att'n::att'n: This is joke. Do not under any circumstances
try this or anything remotely similar!! :att'n::att'n:
Sorry for interrputing. I have no opinion. Just couldn't resist
an obvious joke. |
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| theChris |
| yes, in fact you should contact your local power company and have them reverse the entire path to your house, you know, just to be sure the entire line is correctly aligned... |
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| salas |
Yes power cords do affect the sound of all equipment. If you substitute any thin as it comes with the box ac chord with a proprietary one you always get a sure change. It depends on the individual components if they get dissjointed in sound or not. Other power chords give big soundstage and a slaggier bass, other work complimentary and lower grunge aslong as helping bass impact and timing.
As for brake in, it does exist but is not a strong issue. They can sound a bit cleaner after 100 hours or so. |
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| Circlotron |
Many people say "YES!"
instead of "I think so"
or "NO!"
instead of "I don't think so"
when talking about all kinds of things... :dodgy:
Power cords? I don't think so.
But..... there is alway the possibility that if you are *expecting* to hear an improvement then perhaps your ear/brain actually works more acutely and so you really *do* hear an improvement, but not for the reason that you expected.
I'm prepared to believe that. |
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| ashok |
IMHO the answer to the topic is a big YES !
But why ? If the power cord ( conductor) is thin , you will get a significant voltage drop across it when your amp draws large amounts of current. That will drop the voltage of your power supply.
If it terminates in a socket there is one additional connector in series. So at two connections there will be voltage drops across the terminals ,sometimes nonlinearly with current. You will be surprised how badly oxidized some contacts can get in certain areas. So these factors summed up will cause fluctuations in the power supply of the amp.
Now it depends on the PSRR of the amp to show up these variations as artefacts in the music. Within limits, amps like the Gainclone should be quite resistant to cable and power connector problems. Tube amps on the other hand are potentially problem prone due to their poorer PSRR capability.
So different systems will have different characteristics . Only way to find out if your system is sensitive to this is to try it out yourself. Be cautious - mains voltages can kill you . Everything should be switched off from the mains sockets and possibly the house mains if you are cleaning up the contacts of your mains sockets.
Cheers. |
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| SY |
With the exception of Ohmīs Law voltage drops, the rest would appear to be sheer fantasy, sociology, and hype by opportunistic writers, wire companies, and gulls. Or the laws of physics are wrong and your computer now doesn't work.;)
If you want to convince yorself, look at your amp's power supply rails (with a scope) while playing music or test tones through it. Now change the power cord and do the same thing. Gee, no difference. The laws of physics must be wrong and the power cord peddler is now in line for a Nobel Prize. |
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| protos |
This is a touchy subject since it may bring forth the conflict between the "trust your ears" camp and the "if you can't measure it it's not there" camp.
I have heard differences between power cables.Some have been improvements , some have been just been "sideways" changes. |
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| SY |
| Protos: Always remember the difference between "hearing" and "perceiving." |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
Now change the power cord and do the same thing. Gee, no difference. The laws of physics must be wrong and the power cord peddler is now in line for a Nobel Prize. |
Yes, and if you don't even get the Nobel Prize, then run some
full-page ads in the major newspapers complaining about it. :) |
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| protos |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
Protos: Always remember the difference between "hearing" and "perceiving." |
This is exactly the type of argument that can go on and on as I said.
You are saying that hearing depends on subjective qualities such as expectations , preconceptions , previous beliefs etc. So that I may think I am hearing a difference but in fact I am fooling myself (subconsciously) because I expect to hear a difference where none exists. This is the classical argument of the "scientific" camp to explain why some people might hear a difference where none can be measured by usual equipment. |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by protos
This is exactly the type of argument that can go on and on as I said.
You are saying that hearing depends on subjective qualities such as expectations , preconceptions , previous beliefs etc. So that I may think I am hearing a difference but in fact I am fooling myself (subconsciously) because I expect to hear a difference where none exists. This is the classical argument of the "scientific" camp to explain why some people might hear a difference where none can be measured by usual equipment. |
And it must be science that is wrong?
I think both sides must accept the possibility that they are
wrong. Having a strong belief is one thing, claiming something
is a different thing. |
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| Brett |
SY,
I'm definitely with you on this one. If you can get a change in sonics with a different cord, then either the cord or the PSU is improperly designed or implemented.
And PS cord break-in is a load of horses-hit. |
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| protos |
Of course if you read carefully what I wrote I never said that science is wrong.
However as everybody here probably knows there has always been a heated argument in hi-fi between subjective and objective evaluation of components.
Both camps have been proven right or wrong as the case may be.
Nevertheless it is wrong in my opinion to say that if it can't be measured then it cannot be heard.It depends what we are measuring and on the various parameters that are decided beforehand. A simple oscilloscope for example will not be enough to determine all important factors.
Sometimes we make assumptions about hearing that are wrong.
For example in a recent study it was found that music or signals over 20khz did bring about measurable differences in a group test subjects even though they could not actually "hear" those signals. |
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| Christer |
Protos,
I think I can agree with all of what you said.
Edit: There are alternative theories about the human
hearing that are very fascinating, and that I personally
think has at least some truth to it. There is not much
scientific evidence for these theories so far, for lack of
money and interest from traditional medicine, but some
scientific studies are currently being done around the world.
We'll see what the future will reveal. |
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| stokessd |
I am in violent agreement with SY as well. If there is a change your PSU is really really marginal.
Paying big bucks fo rthe last 6 feet of wire is really silly when you consider the hundreds of feet of basic romex in your walls.
the voltage drop arguement is really questionable if you ask me, because there is a fuse in series with the cord which will be a much higher value resistor than the cord could ever be.
Anecdote:
I was in the largest audio dealer here in Albuquerque (occupied mexico). They have a main listening room which is so overdamped that it feels like your ear drums are going to get sucked out of your head. They have lots of expensive Krell gear and big B&W speakers. It always sounds awful in there. I go there occasionally (it's across the street from a used record store) to look for used gear. I got sucked into listening to the "big system", and the sales droid was all "jazzed" about a new power cord he had. He was playing beach boys music at me way too loud (-120 dB is too loud for that dreck), and he switched the power cord on a very expensive krell CD player and inflicted that music on me again.
the best part is he asked me a very open-ended question: "what do you think?" Me: "I think if you hear or measure any difference at all, then the power supply in that expensive paper weight is more marginal than even I think it is. " He completely missed my point, and I tried to explain what the basic purposes of a power supply is.
Sheldon |
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| sully |
Yes...a power cord can make a difference...
Anecdotes support it.
Electromagnetic theory supports it.
Testing can support it..
Anyone game to put together a test setup to prove me incorrect???
(this is gonna be a fun thread, I can see it now..):devilr:
Cheers, John
PS...I do not claim to have heard it, or that the effect is above the threshold of audibility, but I can provide a very good argument (IMHO)that it can make a difference... |
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| sully |
| quote: | Originally posted by protos
For example in a recent study it was found that music or signals over 20khz did bring about measurable differences in a group test subjects even though they could not actually "hear" those signals. |
On the production floor where I work, we use ultrasonic welders to melt plastics together..the units operate at 25Khz, in the 500 to 2 Kw range.
When they are operated, I can detect it..I can't hear the signal itself, but somehow sense it..
I think (but I'm not sure) that the hearing mechanism responsible for the agc function of the human hearing response is fooled into turning down by the intensity of the u/s..so I think that all the other background noise seems to reduce in volume..even though the u/s signal is inaudible, it seems to affect hearing the other stuff..
Cheers, John |
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| analog_sa |
I have always been shocked that the difference in sound between power cords is more apparent (even to inexperienced listeners) than the differences between speaker/interconnect wire. Yes, it goes against any intuition and conditioning and yes, i don't really like it but it is clearly audible on practically any kind of equipment - cd, amps, synchronous turntables (with no regeneration).
It will be really surprising if one's ears have sufficient resolution to distinguish between speaker cables but not between power cables. |
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| Bill Fitzpatrick |
joan2, the original poster of this thread asked about power cord break-in.
The thread seems to have devolved into a discussion about the sound of one cord vs another. |
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| sully |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bill Fitzpatrick
joan2, the original poster of this thread asked about power cord break-in.
The thread seems to have devolved into a discussion about the sound of one cord vs another. |
Agreed..however, to accept the premise that a powercord can change the sound by changes in itself (burn in), one must first consider the possibility that a powercord can indeed cause a change in sound..
Cheers, John |
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| chris ma |
| quote: | Originally posted by sully
Agreed..however, to accept the premise that a powercord can change the sound by changes in itself (burn in), one must first consider the possibility that a powercord can indeed cause a change in sound..
Cheers, John |
May be it has to be burnt in first before it causes the change in sound?;)
Chris |
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| sully |
| quote: | Originally posted by chris ma
May be it has to be burnt in first before it causes the change in sound?;)
Chris |
I make no claims as to burn in..
But I do claim that it is within a powercord's ability to alter the overall transfer function of a signal plus power-amp system.
Cheers, John |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by protos
You are saying that hearing depends on subjective qualities such as expectations , preconceptions , previous beliefs etc. So that I may think I am hearing a difference but in fact I am fooling myself (subconsciously) because I expect to hear a difference where none exists. This is the classical argument of the "scientific" camp to explain why some people might hear a difference where none can be measured by usual equipment. |
It's a classical argument because it's been shown beyond doubt that humans may perceive differences even when none exist (and I don't mean differences that can't be measured, I mean there were simply no changes made). And that until that possibility is ruled out, there will always be ambiguity as to exactly why someone perceived some difference.
What I've never been able to quite understand is why this possibility is so rarely even considered even as a possibility. Whenever some number of people purport to perceive differences with regard to a certain issue, it's almost always automatically assumed to be due to some physical cause.
It's one thing to not care what the actual cause may be and just go with whatever works, which is pretty much what I do. But if one is truly interested in what the actual cause may be, being in denial of very real possibilities isn't going to get you that answer.
se |
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| Rob M |
Here's a recent article that ought to relevant:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/26/m...e/26BRAINS.html
A neuroscientist compared regions of brain activity in blind and non-blind taste tests. In blind taste tests, the activity was mainly in regions responsible for sensory input. In the non-blind tests, it was in regions responsible for higher level cognition.
Anbody got any spare MRI time? :) |
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| grataku |
It's DEJA VU all over again
You have got to be sh***ing me! I thought trolling was prohibited @ here.
A pointless thread with almost literarlly the same title appeared in this forum about 2.5 years ago back when there barely was Fred. Even with all different people the discussion lead nowhere, except maybe the sin bin for someone.
I am surprised that no one noticed. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by grataku
It's DEJA VU all over again
You have got to be sh***ing me! I thought trolling was prohibited @ here. |
Who's trolling?
se |
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| sully |
| quote: | Originally posted by grataku
It's DEJA VU all over again
You have got to be sh***ing me! I thought trolling was prohibited @ here.
A pointless thread with almost literarlly the same title appeared in this forum about 2.5 years ago back when there barely was Fred. Even with all different people the discussion lead nowhere, except maybe the sin bin for someone.
I am surprised that no one noticed. |
I'm sorry...I'm relatively new here..
The fact that I have to assert that powercords can make a difference indicates to me that the issues which are relevant to powercord based "distortions"have not been discussed here..
PSRR and noise rejection are not what I refer to..nor crystal grains, nor skinning, nor inductance, nor dielectric material, nor dielectric color, nor stranding, nor silver, nor copper.
Cheers, John
PS..on occasion, somebody outside the interest group may bring a new understanding to a topic..I consider myself as (up to recently), an outsider to this group...and I do not "troll"..nor, do I have any intention of injecting "pointless" information. |
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| Christer |
John,
are you sure you were the target?
I think that writing such strong accusations as grataku did
without having the courage to tell who one is aiming at is
very bad manners. In fact, one might even wonder if he
is trolling in a way by making such vague accusations. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Christer
John,
are you sure you were the target? |
Grataku smoked 'im out. It's the guilty ones who are the first to proclaim their innocence when they haven't even been charged. Good work, grataku.
TROLL! TROLL! BURN 'IM! BURN 'IM! :D
se |
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| analog_sa |
| Trolling? Obviously the topic starter. |
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| sully |
| quote: | Originally posted by Christer
John,
are you sure you were the target?
I think that writing such strong accusations as grataku did
without having the courage to tell who one is aiming at is
very bad manners. In fact, one might even wonder if he
is trolling in a way by making such vague accusations. |
No. And, I took no offense, even if I were the target..
What I take exception to is the statement "A pointless thread ".
Since I have stated that the premise is supported by e/m theory, and is testable with equipment, it is obvious that he did not read fully the posts..just reacted with a knee jerk. If he had read fully, he would have called me to task on how it is possible that I believe it can be measured....Since he did not..he obviously did not read..
And, I agree...strong accusations should be prefaced with direction..
Cheers, John |
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| sully |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Grataku smoked 'im out. It's the guilty ones who are the first to proclaim their innocence when they haven't even been charged. Good work, grataku.
TROLL! TROLL! BURN 'IM! BURN 'IM! :D
se |
Just because the sand crabs didn't work....:smash:
Cheers, John |
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| grataku |
I don't have time to play with the search engine, but I am pretty sure that anyone that will find a thread about breaking in power cords in the time frame I stated earlier.
I am guilty of being a member since 2000.
I forgot my emoticons I had no intention of offening anybody ;):D
:angel: |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by analog_sa
Trolling? Obviously the topic starter. |
Obviously? What's obvious about it?
se |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by sully
Just because the sand crabs didn't work....:smash: |
If I am nothing else, I am persistent. :)
se |
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| Dan Banquer |
I've got a story for all of you. A critic let me borrow one of these power cords that had this cylinder on it to slide it up and down the power cord to "tune it" for best sound. Well I did a little experimentation and found that if I connected it to my pre amp and put this cylinder in the middle of the line cord, I would get grossly distorted bass. Hmmmmmm.
I brought the thing into work and put it on the HP LCR meter and did not find anything unusual until I started to measure the phase of the current when the cylinder was in different places. I observed that when the cylinder was at either end of the line cord that the phase of the current was at -7 deg. When the cylinder was placed in the middle of line cord the phase of the current went up to -25 deg.
I consulted with some of the other engineers I was working with at the time and we all agreed that this was the result of magnetic field.
Vans Evers, the "designer" of the line cord did not want to discuss this issue. The critic who let me borrow it wanted to believe it was something else, and I was thoroughly ****ed off that idiots would promote magnetic field when most responsible designers are trying to limit this because of such things as distortion.
In any case; if you want your power cord to break in, follow my grandmothers advice and soak it in kosher chicken fat overnite. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dan Banquer
In any case; if you want your power cord to break in, follow my grandmothers advice and soak it in kosher chicken fat overnite. |
Will that work for uncircumcised gentile power cords too? :D
se |
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| Dan Banquer |
| Absolutely not; no goyishe punim power cords can get the kosher the chicken fat treatment. That just wouldn't be kosher!!! |
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| kilowattski |
| What I don't understand is that some people have 30 to 40 feet (sometimes more) of 10 cents a foot romex in their walls feeding their 3 foot, $1000 audophile grade power cord claiming changing 10% or less of their total ac mains path makes a difference.:confused: |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | What I don't understand is that some people have 30 to 40 feet (sometimes more) of 10 cents a foot romex in their walls feeding their 3 foot, $1000 audophile grade power cord claiming changing 10% or less of their total ac mains path makes a difference. |
Powercords can and, IME, do make a difference but that doesn't mean I'd be throwing big bucks at it...
I already gave a few tips on what makes a noticeable improvement in my system regarding powercords:
Twisted solid core of the same gauge that runs inside the wall is one step in the right direction.
The treated conductors as mentioned here in post # 16 is something else I'd like to try out.
After all that makes good sense to me so that's kosher here...:D
Cheers,;) |
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| jackinnj |
the power cord craze is meant to sell magazines like Stereophile.
power lines -- that's a different matter -- there's an entire art to finding out where crud eminates from -- mostly its poor connections at junction points/ceramic insulators -- like cranking up a spark gap generator used for a model-T, and overworked transformers, transients getting back into the line from airconditioners, blowers.
but wait until "BPL" -- broadband over power line -- is allowed by the FCC in the U.S. -- |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | but wait until "BPL" -- broadband over power line -- is allowed by the FCC in the U.S. -- |
Is that still an ongoing issue in the States?
Ban it, period.
Cheers,;) |
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| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by jackinnj
the power cord craze is meant to sell magazines like Stereophile. |
Amen. And the whole breakin thing is to give people time to adjust to and rationalise changes in sound for long enough that they convince themselves they like what they're hearing, or it's too long to return it. |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Is that still an ongoing issue in the States?
Ban it, period.
|
Not only in the US, I am afraid. It is used in some parts of
Sweden. Fortunately not where I live AFAIK. I don't think
I have heard anything about complaints, though. Maybe
those are to few, or they manage to do it in a well-behaved
way since the power company is the ISP and have full control
over what they are doing. Very doubtful still, I think.
I also think I read somewhere about some very funny side
effects when they tried it Britian, which forced them to
stop the experiments there. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | I also think I read somewhere about some very funny side effects when they tried it Britian, which forced them to
stop the experiments there. |
Yep...remember that too although not in detail.
Surely Jack will 'splain that to us...
Ciao,;) |
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| jackinnj |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
Is that still an ongoing issue in the States?
Ban it, period.
Cheers,;) |
it's a concern to ham radio operators, police, fire and aircraft operators
a trial is starting in Manassas, Virginia -- here's a link to the story on the ARRL website:
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2003/10/23/1/?nc=1 |
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| Eva |
| There's nothing better than laughing at some subjetivists not being able to identify their magic power cords in some good old double blind tests :D |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | it's a concern to ham radio operators, police, fire and aircraft operators |
You're an HAM guy aren't you, Jack?
Fight it with all you can, it's a safety hazard for starters.
| quote: | | There's nothing better than laughing at some subjetivists not being able to identify their magic power cords in some good old double blind tests |
One of these days the joke may be on you so caveat emptor, senor...
Cheers,;) |
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| salas |
After having the actual experience a zillion times there is no 'I think so'
Trust your ears. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | After having the actual experience a zillion times there is no 'I think so' |
Same here but I still like to see some engineering explanation for what I hear...
It often comes with a 20 year delay....:D
If you want to stay ahead of the crowd visit the link posted in # 16 and dig out the nuggets...they're free to all of you.
Cheers,;) |
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| Bill Fitzpatrick |
Poor Joan2. She asked the wrong question if she wanted an answer.
Joan, there is no evidence one way or another. There are only opinions.
If it is the case that a break-in makes a difference and it requires a special signal or sequence of signals you will be facing the purchase of a device to do it; probably a few hundred bucks. And, you will never know for sure whether the money was wisely spent. You may come to believe it but believing something and knowing something are not the same thing.
If no special signal is required then, obviously, the cord will break itself in over time. |
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| joan2 |
wow!!! so much response in 24 hours!!!
hi Bill Fitzpatrick,
precisely why i posted this topic here!!! when i responded to this by saying that this must be one of the many "superstitions" going around the audio world, they went balllistics on me, i got name called, and onther one even commented that my grammar was 'hideous'
so i am seeking out the world for answers.... |
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| Upupa Epops |
| I have one explanation for this question. Today's mains is very " manured " by any different radio - frequency interference. If this frequences are " drag off " to the inside of apparatus, they can cause for example faults in DA conversion or intermodulation distortion in amplifiers. By two wires mains connection ( class II apparatus ) is solution relatively easy : you can use cord with current compensated choke. By tree wires connection ( class I apparatus ) this solution is not suitable, 'cos fault is on " earth " wire also and this wire goes straight to the chassis of the apparatus and sometimes also to the " working groud " and the problems are therefore much bigger. Solution is in this case " to build own power station ", which is not easy :) , or to use insulation transformer, because only in this case is " mains antenna " shorte. I was make many " double blind " tests with independent people and results was quite unambiguous - when start play music, every people was saying after a few tacts , that all is much more clear in all frequences ( all apparatus was connected true this transformer ). Differences between cords are probably caused by different " tuning " build in RF filters ( if they are used ) - cords without any filters must be the same. Using of insulation transformer is trying to solve all - my best recommendation. |
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| janneman |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
Not making any claims here, just pointing out that it can be measured:
Jennifer Lowpass Powercords.
Cheers,;) |
I have some of these cords, in a version where they have a molded-on plug which has an internal RF filter in the plug. Nice, strudy, and measurably attenuate mains noise etc.
As I see it, bringing the RF filter to the wall socket from the amp and use a screened mains cord to go from filter to amp, as these cords do, MIGHT improve the mains quality, if your room is flooded with RF. It would also decrease re-radiated RF FROM the mains cord into the room and into the other components. So, I use them just as insurance.
Jan Didden |
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| Circlotron |
| First you have to ask yourself "did they use a Magic Power Cord :rolleyes: at the recording studio for this CD I am listening to?". If not then by definition information has been irreversably lost. Get over it. |
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| mikee12345 |
revenge of the never ending thread
at polytech we had a look at the mains with a 10k$ fluke meter-it was visibly distorted due to a few hundred pcs in the building taking their slices..
i remember skimming through the 'do cables make a difference ' thread..that was interesting,sometimes.
If science doesnt explain it,and Abx tests are inconclusive(or dont show u what u want to see),what infact do we do
-have faith, its unproven
-ignore it unless provable
-dont care about it if u feel better with it
let the people who feel better buying these things buy them,
personally il start with the worst offendor
speakers and room environment.
ps ive heard of ppl at audioenz.co.nz making an entire new supply spur in their electrical house wiring,from the switchboard so that no appliances interfere,distorting mains signal-this makes sense-but i would take some measurements,before and after
-and then ABX then listen,and be not much better off perhaps...
i should just be quiet and go back to my boom box and forget audio
;) :xeye: |
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| mrfeedback |
One first thing to check is power polarity when comparing power leads - this can and does make a sonic difference.
My CDP has a Fig-8 standard power lead input socket.
I hear differences between two Fig-8 power leads when fitted in the same power polarity - one has grey insulation and the other has black insulation.
I have also tried two different sounding interconnects in series with an RCA joiner in between.
The sound of the interconnect nearest the load (pre-amp input socket) dominated.
The equipment power lead is the last in a long chain from the power station, and based on the above paragraph, would be expected to influence.
In practice, I find that power leads can and do influence equipment sounds.
Eric. |
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| grataku |
I never said power cord have NO influence, I was talking about the break in part, and what was implied by the title starter, that someohow we were missing out on something by not doing it.
Here is the equation I use IMHO works well ;)
Sound= C+A0+A1^2+...........An^N with n->infinity
where C,N=integers and A<1
I rate "power cord break in" as pretty close to An^N where An is
an infinetesimally small number and N is an infinitely large number.
C = listener, how are the sinus? How much you had to drink?
How many audio shows have been visited in the past 3 years, how many setups sounded better than yours? When I go I always find a couple that sound better than mine and that pushes me to do better.
A0 = speakers, power amp power rating, CD or vinyl recording quality.
A1 = preamp, riaa, CD player, BAL/SE (SE is for single ended)
A2 = type of amp (tube or SS)
A3 = class A, AB, B, fine-tuning PS, components selection.
A4 = properly selected interconnects and power cables
A5....An = whatever else
My point, if I have one, is that too many people have no idea of how their system sound and they are chasing wild geese while they should be worried about optimizing much more important parts of their sytems. |
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| mrfeedback |
"I never said power cord have NO influence, I was talking about the break in part, and what was implied by the title starter, that someohow we were missing out on something by not doing it."
I have found that leads and electronics "break-in" when exposed to large amplitude transients.
I have encountered a strange effect when running up newly blanket resoldered amplifiers.
The manifestation of this is that when running up for the first time, the sound is constricted/wrong until clipping is achieved.
There is an audible change, and thereafter the amplifier sounds different (and sonically better).
Since first noticing this effect I have proven it many times, and with witnesses.
I have also found connecting cables to exhibit this effect.
Eric. |
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| salas |
After 2500 years of science and philosophy we should know better. There is an inherent ambition in any theory to become a law. There is an inherent fascism in any law to stay permanent.
Plato teached his 'Politia' (city) because he liked it. Not because it was feasible. Every theory becomes a law in absence of something more wholistic. Newton is ok for earth, not ok for Universe, Einstein covered that. Relativity is good for Universe not good enough for microcosm, Hawking covers that.
When we experience something a bit extreme for our physical laws collection and we dont have enough concrete experimental knowledge and neverteless a conclusive mathematical law to nail it, we should not get nervous. Not ignoring it we must not demonise it nor make a cult out of it.
Audio is not exactly the sector that Nasa funds are spared for its thorough scientific coverage. We are hobbyists and we should follow practical measures about audio phenomena. We are not top scientists. We are HOBBYISTS.
Japanese have the best mentality towards audio. Their esoteric stuff has shown the right path many times. And we are talking about the same people who defined consumerism. Nobody gets nervous about proving first. They listen first.
I bet if we had some top scientific team researching our issues here, we would get the answers very fast. But Hi-End sound does not seem to kill or exploit national resources. Its way too gentle and pleasing for them to spend on it. |
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| jarek |
| quote: | | I have one explanation for this question. Today's mains is very " manured " by any different radio - frequency interference. If this frequences are " drag off " to the inside of apparatus, they can cause for example faults in DA conversion or intermodulation distortion in amplifiers. |
I agree with you. I would add, that not only radio frequences have influence here. Also other equipment connected to the mains can degrade power line. And not need arrange any blind test to observe that quality of power line is important thing. I must switch my amp off where my wife uses her hairdrayer. Transformers in the amp get terribly growl.
From the other side power line can be infuenced by our audio stuff also. For example, power amp to CD. I observed that sound from my CD was degraded unless I gave a 100nF cap across the power line before the amps transformers. After that the sound have become a little darker.
My proposal here is that any experienced audio constructors could show us a GPM (Good Practice Methods) of connecting audio stuff to power line to avoid unexpecting results and eliminate influence of disturbances which can go trough the power line. It would be good to consider two-prong and three-prong installation.
| quote: | | By two wires mains connection ( class II apparatus ) is solution relatively easy : you can use cord with current compensated choke |
Could you show practical sollution with an arrangement?
Regards |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Circlotron
First you have to ask yourself "did they use a Magic Power Cord :rolleyes: at the recording studio for this CD I am listening to?". If not then by definition information has been irreversably lost. Get over it. |
This is very curious...
Why do you spend your time here if this is your attitude?
Is this a by-product of not being able to hear above 9.5k?
I have no opinion on the powercord discussion, but if you think that all information is lost during recording then what do you listen to? |
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| SY |
Dan, schmaltz is well-known to lubricate the micropaths that the AC electrons take. Over time, though, it can cause an electrical aethereosclerotic condition.
| quote: | | This is the classical argument of the "scientific" camp to explain why some people might hear a difference where none can be measured by usual equipment. |
I'd care a lot less about the measurements if someone, ANYONE, would have done a proper, replicable listening test with positive results. Like, oh, the charlatans selling fancy line cords. FWIW, I tried the solid core idea with no difference whatever in the sound. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | FWIW, I tried the solid core idea with no difference whatever in the sound. |
Sorry to hear that, I do appreciate you making the effort though.
Many people, including myself clearly hear the difference between a multi-strand powercord and a standard multi-strand one.
The most obvious difference is one of more coherence across the audio band and better focus and separation in space of individual instruments.
Maybe that difference didn't hit a nerve?
Cheers,;) |
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| GaryB |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
I'd care a lot less about the measurements if someone, ANYONE, would have done a proper, replicable listening test with positive results. Like, oh, the charlatans selling fancy line cords. FWIW, I tried the solid core idea with no difference whatever in the sound. |
I would never pay big bucks for a power cord, but I have to confess that I have heard differences in IEC power cords. I replaced the generic power cords for my power strip with some hospital grade cords I picked up for $1.50 each at a hamfest and low and behold they actually did sound better. I was skeptical so I invited my brother-in-law to listen (he's also into DIY audio) and he was also able to hear a difference in favor of the hospital grade cords. My hand waving argument is that the connectors are much "tighter" requiring more force to insert / pull out. Presumably that helps clean the connections at each insertion and gives better contact. So I guess I'm in the camp that says the biggest differences is from the quality of the connectors.
---Gary |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
The most obvious difference is one of more coherence across the audio band and better focus and separation in space of individual instruments. |
I've always wondered just how this could be given the fact that the majority of the time, the power cord's not even in the circuit.
se |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Many people, including myself clearly hear the difference between a multi-strand powercord and a standard multi-strand one.
Cheers,;) |
I don't know if any of the above "clearly" hear the difference in a real test, or they just think they hear the difference? |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
I've always wondered just how this could be given the fact that the majority of the time, the power cord's not even in the circuit.
se |
for the same reason that a lot more people can talk to the dead? |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | I've always wondered just how this could be given the fact that the majority of the time, the power cord's not even in the circuit. |
Errr, what class of operation's is that?
Anyway, the effect is there...to some ears at least...
Technically, to me it's the continuity of the wires that may, or may not play a role...
Either way I prefer solid core powercords no end...
Cheers,;) |
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| SY |
Frank: I would think, given that I'm using a single driver crossoverless speaker, that I'd hear any changes in "coherence." As I mentioned a few weeks ago, I key in on soundstaging and tonality in these kinds of tests; if I hear a guitar and I immediately think, "Ahh, a vintage Martin D-28! Medium gauge strings, spiral wound," I know my system is doing something right. And when I'm transported back to the Village Gate when I hear a live recording made there, I know that the focus is what it should be.
OTOH, my speakers don't rock:whazzat: |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | OTOH, my speakers don't rock |
Or, that's what you been told... sure enough ELS speakers don't have any visceral impact.
And no, they don't rock...doesn't matter in this case, they should be revealing enough, and they are, to throw up these differences...
This has me puzzled as to my ears this is blatantly obvious...which is is why I suggested the test in the first place...
Any other guinea pigs on this one?
Cheers,;) |
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| mrfeedback |
"Any other guinea pigs on this one?"
Yeah I'm in - why not ?.
I suppose I have nothing to lose, and at this rate I might end up with a whole new system to compare and report on !!!.
Frank, yes I am with you.
I agree that cues to listen for are subtleties like "more coherence across the audio band and better focus and separation in space of individual instruments".
There may not always be an improvement (a worsening even), but there will usually be a difference.
I have also heard AC line filters to make a similar sonic difference.
Sy, a friend of mine has a wonderfully nice system including tube preamp and power amps, and electrostats, and differeing power cables makes a clearly audible difference on his system too.
Frank, I suspect that the naysayers are not listening for for these kinds of cues, or that their systems are not intrinsically revealling enough.
Preconceptions that such cables cannot make any difference will of course prejudice listening results.
Whilst on the 240V power track, I find that all items fitted with piggy-back plugs, and all these piggy-back plugs connected together makes a nice improvement in coherence.
Eric. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Errr, what class of operation's is that? |
It's how your typical capacitor input power supply operates (and what causes the "flat-topping" of the AC power waveform). The rectifier diodes don't cunduct until the transformer's secondary voltage exceeds the voltage across the reservoir caps by a diode drop.
When the rectifier diodes are off, everything upstream is effectively out of the circuit. And unless you have next to no reservoir capacitance and are draining them down to next to nothing between refresh cycles or are using a choke-input power supply, the power cord will be out of the circuit the majority of the time.
| quote: | Anyway, the effect is there...to some ears at least...
Technically, to me it's the continuity of the wires that may, or may not play a role...
Either way I prefer solid core powercords no end... |
Which is fine with me. As I said, I've just wondered how something that's typically out of the circuit the majority of the time can have the type of effects claimed. Not saying it hasn't or can't have any effect. I just find it curious is all.
se |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Any other guinea pigs on this one? |
How do you propose this one be pulled off remotely? I mean, it'd be quite easy to tell the difference by feel alone between stranded and solid core.
se |
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| Eva |
Since in audio equipment mains is being rectified at its peaks, power is drawn only during 33% of time
In the other 66% of time power line cord and power transformers doesnīt form part of the audio equipment as they are being isolated from the rest of the circuit by very high impedances of reverse biased diodes
Thereby, power line cord and power transformers arenīt in the circuit the majority of the time
It's wonderful to be able to hear as 'better clarity' something that is switched in and out of the audio circuits 100..120 times a second, isnīt it?
:smash:
If RF is the problem [nothing magic here, you can see it with oscilloscope] then just buy some ferrite toroid cores [or any other shape] with high RF losses and build some common-mode filters to put in power cords, all equipment should include them but actually most lacks
PD: Why people says 'listening' when they actually are 'looking' ? |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by mrfeedback
Preconceptions that such cables cannot make any difference will of course prejudice listening results. |
You mean just like how preconceptions that such cables can make a difference will also prejudice listening results?
se |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eva
Since in audio equipment mains is being rectified at its peaks, power is drawn only during 33% of time
In the other 66% of time power line cord and power transformers doesnīt form part of the audio equipment as they are being isolated from the rest of the circuit by very high impedances of reverse biased diodes
Thereby, power line cord and power transformers arenīt in the circuit the majority of the time
It's wonderful to be able to hear as 'better clarity' something that is switched in and out of the audio circuits 100..120 times a second, isnīt it?
:smash: |
Here's a set of plots which illustrate that rather well:
The "AC Current" waveform illustrates when the transformer and all the other upstream stuff is in the circuit which corresponds to the flat portion of the AC mains voltage.
se |
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| Eva |
How about magic mains wiring for your house?
Perhaps magic power lines for your city?
Magic electric power company, magic high-voltage transformers and lines, magic power plants, magic fuses, magic power plugs ...
:) |
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| mrfeedback |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
You mean just like how preconceptions that such cables can make a difference will also prejudice listening results?
se |
No, I mean open mindedness versus closed mindedness.
Consider that during varying amplifier output, varying power will be drawn from the mains, and therefore varying charging duty cycle.
Also consider that different rectifier diodes can make sonic differences.
Different cable LCR characteristics would influence parasitic ringing conditions in the power supply, and due to non perfect amplifier PSRR and non perfect earthing arrangements, this could cause audible changes.
I do not see this an impossibilty.
Eric. |
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| Eva |
Of course, it causes audible changes at 100 or 120Hz
This is called 'Humm', isnīt it familiar?
In bad designs [amplifier or signal circuits with ground loops or induction problemas] or with long mains wiring togheter with unbalanced signal wiring [usually in PA or disco applications] you can hear clearly this hum for an instant when signal amplitude decreases sharply [no longer masking the humm] and capacitors are still charging, for example, when somedoby talking at the mic ends a phrase |
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| sully |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eva
Of course, it causes audible changes at 100 or 120Hz
This is called 'Humm', isnīt it familiar?
In bad designs [amplifier or signal circuits with ground loops or induction problemas] or with long mains wiring togheter with unbalanced signal wiring [usually in PA or disco applications] you can hear clearly this hum for an instant when signal amplitude decreases sharply [no longer masking the humm] and capacitors are still charging, for example, when somedoby talking at the mic ends a phrase |
Now...if a high power signal is being reproduced on one of those "bad" designs, and that hum is being made by the draw to recharge...how far down is that hum...and, is that hum capable of "blurring" the soundstage? And how does one perceive it, if the bank is recharged quickly enough that the hum is only there when the bass is?
What does it look like?? A haversine that is modulated by the power envelope of the audio?
I eliminated my power cord problems in a 500 seat venue, by running my unbalanced, 100 foot line levels bundled tightly with the source rack power cord, using the same AC outlet for the amp and the mixer..I couldn't use the distributed AC of the building, due to HVAC and 5 megawatt, 12 phase power supplies nearby. So I kept the signal loop very closely bound to the power cord, to keep the loop area small. No pops, clicks, nothing.
Cheers, John |
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| SY |
| quote: | | No, I mean open mindedness versus closed mindedness. |
A mind that is always open is an encouragement for people to throw all kinds of garbage in there.
Not impossible, certainly, but given the negative measurements that anyone can repeat and the total lack of proper listening tests to confirm the unlikely claims, let's say "highly unlikely." |
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| joan2 |
| i have a question, what can a cd player with a traffo probably having a ga.30 or so primary winding wire profit from using a ga14 power cord? the owner claims hearing a difference.... |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by joan2
i have a question, what can a cd player with a traffo probably having a ga.30 or so primary winding wire profit from using a ga14 power cord? the owner claims hearing a difference.... |
And then, you can find other people who say it makes at lot
of difference to change your power cords, but you should
not change the one to the CD player.
There's a lot of people hearing things, but they do hear
different things. Maybe they actually do hear it, and it
it is a matter of subjective taste, or they are imagining
different things. I don't know and I don't see how I could
possibly know either. It is interesting, though, that they all
want us to trust them at believe what they hear, but they
do not want us to believe the same things. It is a bit like
religion, some say we should believe in the Christian God,
some say we should believe in Allah, etc. etc. They are all
convinced, but of different things. (No disrespect at any
religion or any religious individual intended. I just find the
analogy appropriate). |
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| joan2 |
hi christer,
you were right, i thought this whole deal was a joke, until they called me names.....they were passionately serious....i guess some people are making a lot of money out of this....there are audiophiles who easily succumb to suggestions, just like the story of "the emperor's clothes" that to be called an audiophile you have to see the emperor wearing fine clothes, when in reality he is stark naked!!!! |
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| Christer |
I am not claiming they don't hear these differences or that it
is impossible, but in many cases I do find it hard to believe
anyone can hear a difference. I see no problem with two
power cords of different physical build making a slight
difference in theory. One could probably prove them to
do so, with much effort, math and theory. However, if
such a difference is even remotely close to the measurement
or audibility threshold is another matter. |
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| mrfeedback |
"However, if such a difference is even remotely close to the measurement or audibility threshold is another matter."
Take a close listen on nearfield monitors for yourself and you may just be surprised.
Eric. |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by mrfeedback
Take a close listen on nearfield monitors for yourself and you may just be surprised.
Eric. |
what did you hear when you listen to nearfield monitors? and what makes you think the effect of cabling is more pronounced on nearfield monitors? |
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| mrfeedback |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
what did you hear when you listen to nearfield monitors?
and what makes you think the effect of cabling is more pronounced on nearfield monitors? |
Ummm, the nearfield monitors.
Ummm, because the monitors are closer.
Eric. |
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| bknauss |
www.audioholics.com - They have a small article on cable break in. There's a quote from a magazine at the end that I found quite interesting.
Here's my thoughts on cable break in: I have never seen a cable being broken in at the power electronics research group I help out with. They have projects ranging from lower power (10W) all the way up to hundreds of kilowatts. You would think if there were real benefits (or any benefits) from cable break in, they would adhere to those steps.
My thoughts on upgrading power cables: At least in the US, you have anywhere from a couple miles to hundreds of miles of transmission lines that lose power and introduce noice into the signal. What difference will 6 feet make??
These are my 2 cents. I have never completed an ABX test for either one of these theories, but I am going on a hunch with a little scientific background.
PS - Glad this isn't audio asylum! I would have been banned for saying "ABX test" ;) |
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| sully |
| quote: | Originally posted by bknauss
My thoughts on upgrading power cables: At least in the US, you have anywhere from a couple miles to hundreds of miles of transmission lines that lose power and introduce noice into the signal. What difference will 6 feet make??
These are my 2 cents. PS - Glad this isn't audio asylum! I would have been banned for saying "ABX test" ;) |
That's not the only thing that get's you banned there..:dead:
RE: 6 feet....
Your audio system ground is referenced there..for safety reasons, but still, it's there..
Not hundreds of miles away..
Cheers, John |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by sully
That's not the only thing that get's you banned there..:dead: |
Noooooo. Really? :D
se |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
In the corner and on your knees...off you go, come on....:smash: :smash: :smash:
Cheers,;) |
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| EE_Mark |
| There is no such thing as "breaking in" a wire. A power cord with heavier wires will drop less than a power cord with thinner wires, but unless you're pulling a lot of currentthe difference will be negligable. If your amp has any decent regulation the difference will be negligable anyway. Keep in mind the power cord connects to an outlet and then goes through the wiring in your house and to the transformer on the street, none of which you have any control over. An amp has regulation and filtering on the critical areas inside so that noise and drops from the line shouldn't cause problems. |
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| mrfeedback |
Mark, you should not let that EE brainwashing get in the way of your road to enlightenment.
What you are saying is essentially correct, but is not the whole truth.
Eric. |
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| EE_Mark |
| I'm actually going by my decades of experience in audio. I've built all my own amps and signal processors and for years ran a sound reinforcement company on the side while for the last 23 I've designed electronics for NASA spacecraft and have been involved in testing electronics and systrem integration for airborne imaging systems and infrared imaging systems. Before that I worked in a metrology lab repairing high end test equipment and I also spent a year traveling to all the airports and long distance radar sites in California calibrating control tower equipment, radar, and instrument landing systems for the FAA. If I'm missing something on the subject of power cord break-in please enlighten me. At NASA, with test equipment costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, we use regular power cords. Tektronix and Agilent send out regular power cords when you purchase equipment from them. Audio Precision company, a spinoff form Tektronix employees, uses standard power cords. Audio equipment is senstive to power line fluctuations and noise but again, since you have no control over the power coming to your house, the power cord, as long as it is heavy wire, is not a factor in a decently designed amp. Please correct me in detail if I'm missing something. I'd love to be enlightened. |
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