| tom1356 |
I want to smack myself.
These are .8 ohms and go in the midrange crossover.
I really want to smack myself.
I have been putting these off for a very long time because I did not want to buy insulated silver wire.
I don't know why but I havn't been able to bring myself to pay insulated wire prices.
My guess is, it is the unsurity of how much wire do I need? Could I wind them myself? What if there was no improvement?
So I put it off.
They are not pretty.
I don't care.
I could try to wipe the smile off my face but it would be difficult.
I need a smack. |
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| Sch3mat1c |
Uh... so why do you make a *resistor* out of something that doesn't happen to be very resistive? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Tim |
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| BrianGT |
They look like inductors to me... how could they be non-inductive?
--
Brian |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sch3mat1c
Uh... so why do you make a *resistor* out of something that doesn't happen to be very resistive? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Tim |
Because silver sounds better than anything else.
| quote: | Originally posted by BrianGT
They look like inductors to me... how could they be non-inductive?
--
Brian |
They are bifilar wound in two layers. |
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| randytsuch |
Curious how much wire it took to make one, and how much one of those ended up costing?
By bifilar, I am guessing you mean you wound 1/2 the resistor in one direction, and the other 1/2 in the other direction?
Randy |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Uh... so why do you make a *resistor* out of something that doesn't happen to be very resistive? |
By using more of it?
Cheers,;) |
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| Squalish |
A) Has it ever been empirically(or even popularly) proven that silver sounds better? I've seen lots of people claiming it's too bright for them to use in their systems for ICs.
B) How much resistance do you get per length?
C) Are you worrying at all about excess capacitance caused by doing this? |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | A) Has it ever been empirically(or even popularly) proven that silver sounds better? I've seen lots of people claiming it's too bright for them to use in their systems for ICs. |
If you decide to use silver, use it throughout.
For reasons beyond me that works.
| quote: | | B) How much resistance do you get per length? |
8% less than the equivalent copper wire and 35% better sound.
| quote: | | C) Are you worrying at all about excess capacitance caused by doing this? |
It's meant for low impedance service so capacitance shouldn't be a major concern.
Cheers,;) |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by randytsuch
Curious how much wire it took to make one, and how much one of those ended up costing?
By bifilar, I am guessing you mean you wound 1/2 the resistor in one direction, and the other 1/2 in the other direction?
Randy |
They each use about 26 feet of 36ga fine silver wire.
The first winding is 1.6 ohm. The second winding is 1.6 ohm and is wound the oposite way. When tied together the give .8 ohms resistance .
| quote: | Originally posted by Squalish
A) Has it ever been empirically(or even popularly) proven that silver sounds better? I've seen lots of people claiming it's too bright for them to use in their systems for ICs.
B) How much resistance do you get per length?
C) Are you worrying at all about excess capacitance caused by doing this? |
At my house silver sounds better.
I can't measure the capacitance it is too low.
I just made some copper ones 7.2 ohms.
I can't wait to try them. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by tom1356
Because silver sounds better than anything else. |
Ah, but does two dozen feet of silver necessarily sound better than two inches of something else? Less is more, yes? :)
| quote: | I just made some copper ones 7.2 ohms.
I can't wait to try them. |
Good luck with 'em!
I just got these today. They're 32 ohm 5 watters I had custom made "nude" and using a 55% copper alloy instead of the typical nichrome. They're for a headphone amp though, not loudspeakers.
se |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Ah, but does two dozen feet of silver necessarily sound better than two inches of something else? Less is more, yes? :)
Good luck with 'em!
I just got these today. They're 32 ohm 5 watters I had custom made "nude" and using a 55% copper alloy instead of the typical nichrome. They're for a headphone amp though, not loudspeakers.
se |
The two dozen feet of silver sound so much better than 2 inches of anything a resistor is currently made of.
Less **** in the resistor is more, you are right.
Those look very cool
I would like to hear your impressions of them.
This is the 7.2 ohm copper wire resistor. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by tom1356
Those look very cool |
But VERY delicate. The discontinuity between the end caps and the core is the weak point (it's 50 gauge wire). I already boinked one taking it off the scanner. :)
Think I'm going to have to put a daub of something at the wire welds to protect them.
| quote: | | I would like to hear your impressions of them. |
Sure. Might be a while yet. Got another amp I need to finish before I start on this one.
| quote: | | This is the 7.2 ohm copper wire resistor. |
Coolness!
Hasn't someone done up some resistors like this before? It looks very familiar. Not that yours are those, just that they remind me of something I recall seeing before.
se |
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| SY |
| One caution for home-made resistors and caps- they can tend toward microphonics. The "improvements" that can be heard are often just stuff rattling around. |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
*sniped*
Hasn't someone done up some resistors like this before? It looks very familiar. Not that yours are those, just that they remind me of something I recall seeing before.
se |
Yes they are swiped from Audio Consulting.
Theirs have got to be way better than mine but you never hear about people using them. Wonder why?
If they are even as good as mine they should tell more people.
I think it's the $500.00 knob they sell. It makes everything on their site look expensive.
I'm picking up more wire tomorrow to make more of these.
Huge bang for the buck with these.
The silver .08 ohm ones cost about $3-4.00 each to make.
The copper 7.2 ohm ones a dollar or so. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by tom1356
Yes they are swiped from Audio Consulting.
Theirs have got to be way better than mine but you never hear about people using them. Wonder why?
If they are even as good as mine they should tell more people.
I think it's the $500.00 knob they sell. It makes everything on their site look expensive. |
Hehehe. Nah, it's not the knob, it's the... Audiophile Pricetag! :)
| quote: | I'm picking up more wire tomorrow to make more of these.
Huge bang for the buck with these.
The silver .08 ohm ones cost about $3-4.00 each to make.
The copper 7.2 ohm ones a dollar or so. |
Not bad. Hell, you can beg that much change in front of the grocery store in less than an hour. :)
se |
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| Variac |
I thought to make bifilar non-inductive all you have to do is wrap 2 wires at the same time along a core, then connect the ends together on one end. The two wires on the other end are the in and out , right?
That way the current flows down the core spiraling lets say in the clockwise direction, then returns through the other wire, in effect going counterclockwise.
Even though the two wires together are wrapped in the same direction, the current is flowing in opposite directions in each wire so cancels out ? right?
So you don't need two layers I think.
Tom, Where did you get your insulated silver wire? |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
*sniped*
Not bad. Hell, you can beg that much change in front of the grocery store in less than an hour. :)
se |
It helps to dress in a cloak and ring a bell.
| quote: | Originally posted by Variac
*sniped*
Tom, Where did you get your insulated silver wire? |
The wire was not insulated. thats why they look so bad. I had to leave a tiny space between each wind. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Variac
I thought to make bifilar non-inductive all you have to do is wrap 2 wires at the same time along a core, then connect the ends together on one end. The two wires on the other end are the in and out , right? |
It looks to me like the pair of wires are just wound side-by-side from one end to the other and twisted together at each end. If that's the case, then it'll be highly inducitve.
Ayrton-Perry has the two wires wrapped oppositely around the core, but because these wires aren't insulated, you wouldn't be able to do that because the wires have to cross over each other.
se |
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| Variac |
That would be inductive! and you are right that the way he did it would be inductive. He is counting on the 2 layers he puts on in opposite directions to be make it non-inductive. To do it the way I thought, you have to twist them only at one end. The other end then has the 2 leads.
OR, you take your entire length of wire and fold it in two . Start wrapping bifilarly by fastening the bent center portion to the core.
the free ends on the other end of the core,- those are your leads
The A-P method is what Frank was referring to, but I now wonder if this reallly necessary if the leads are both on one end. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Variac
That would be inductive! and you are right that would be inductive. He is counting on the 2 layers he puts on in opposite directions to be make it non-inductive. To do it the way I thought, you have to twist them only at one end. The other end then has the 2 leads.
OR, you take your entire length of wire and fold it in two . Start wrapping bifilarly by fastening the bent center portion to the core.
the free ends on the other end of the core,- those are your leads |
Right.
| quote: | | The A-P method is what Frank was referring to, but I now wonder if this reallly necessary. |
Not sure what the difference in inductance would be using the Ayrton-Perry winding versus the scheme you mention above.
Got an inductance meter handy? :)
se |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | The A-P method is what Frank was referring to, but I now wonder if this reallly necessary if the leads are both on one end. |
Psst...think it through one more time, please.
Just don't fool yourself, the only difficult part is SE... :D
Ciao,;) |
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| Variac |
| That makes two of you ;) |
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| tom1356 |
I think There may be some confusion here.
The process:
I wound un-insulated silver wire onto the dowel leaving a small space in-between each wind, in one direction. Then I enameled the wire on the dowel, letting it dry. This wire now became insulated. I then wound a second layer of un-insulated wire in the opposite direction in-between the first layer's windings crossing the first layer each turn in an Ayrton-Perry wind (thanks Frank!). I then enameled that to insulate it.
Then I connected the two windings at each end.
This is why they look like ****. If I had insulated wire they would be nice looking. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by tom1356
I think There may be some confusion here.
The process:
I wound un-insulated silver wire onto the dowel leaving a small space in-between each wind, in one direction. Then I enameled the wire on the dowel, letting it dry. This wire now became insulated. I then wound a second layer of un-insulated wire in the opposite direction in-between the first layer's windings crossing the first layer each turn in an Ayrton-Perry wind (thanks Frank!). I then enameled that to insulate it.
Then I connected the two windings at each end.
This is why they look like ****. If I had insulated wire they would be nice looking. |
Thanks for the clarification.
What'd you use for the enameling?
se |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Thanks for the clarification.
What'd you use for the enameling?
se |
Nail polish. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by tom1356
Nail polish. |
Hehehe. Resourceful. :)
se |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | What'd you use for the enameling? |
In general X to the square of Pf to the tef of lon squared to Z?
I think I'll ask Jam for the cartoons...:xeye:
Cheers,;) |
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| Christopher |
If it really does make an audible difference, one would need to establish why yes?
The old "silver sounds better" thing I think will not get us any closer to understanding audio electronics. This is an electrical component, thus the electrical properties at audio frequencies are what will make an audible difference.
In installing these new resistors what have you changed?
Resistive material
size of the resistor
physical configuration (which will affect parasitic capacitance and inductance among other things)
distance of the new resistor from crossover and loudspeaker components
signal path length
If this crossover is inside the speaker cabinet you have also changed the internal volume of the box.
So out of all this, how does one get to blame the silver for all the change? Each of what I mentioned above will have some effect. But until you know how much, you are just shooting in the dark. Have you taken a look at the new vs old crossover on a scope?
This seems to be a lot of work for a crossover resistor so if it does make an improvement, the abiltity to create as good a change for less money and effort would be a bonus. Perhaps all you need to do is buy some bifilar wound resistors and you will get all the benefits. Perhaps not.
Chris |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Christopher
If it really does make an audible difference, one would need to establish why yes?
The old "silver sounds better" thing I think will not get us any closer to understanding audio electronics. This is an electrical component, thus the electrical properties at audio frequencies are what will make an audible difference.
In installing these new resistors what have you changed?
Resistive material
size of the resistor
physical configuration (which will affect parasitic capacitance and inductance among other things)
distance of the new resistor from crossover and loudspeaker components
signal path length
If this crossover is inside the speaker cabinet you have also changed the internal volume of the box.
So out of all this, how does one get to blame the silver for all the change? Each of what I mentioned above will have some effect. But until you know how much, you are just shooting in the dark. Have you taken a look at the new vs old crossover on a scope?
This seems to be a lot of work for a crossover resistor so if it does make an improvement, the abiltity to create as good a change for less money and effort would be a bonus. Perhaps all you need to do is buy some bifilar wound resistors and you will get all the benefits. Perhaps not.
Chris |
These are outboard crossovers.
The position on the hard wired Maple crossover board is the same as the old one, the size is much bigger.
They replaced RCN ww resistors.
I don't have a scope, I listen to the system instead.
It was a lot of work, but I have never spent three hours working on my stereo that was more beneficial.
I don't know why they sound as good as they do. They have no right to. They are so simple and so ugly.
I will be replacing as many resistors as possible with silver ones.
I don't expect the same improvement as the first ones but I do expect an improvement.
Why don't you give it a try. |
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| SimontY |
Congratulations on those resistors!
I'd like to try 'em in my speakers. My tweeter attenuation resistor is only 1ohm, so it's a nice candidate.
However, looking at Audiocom's price list for silver wire, I realise it would cost an absolute bloody fortune to make one! Their stuff is: "Long-grain Pure Silver Wire (5N) 99.997%" - maybe a little fancy for the job? I tried this in an interconnect and the sound was thin and harsh, if detailed (not the same as a resistor though!).
http://www.audiocominternational.co.../silverwire.asp
How on earth was your silver wire so cheap?!?!?
Is the copper alternative in the same ballpark sq-wise? I have little silver elsewhere in the audio-chain, so I'm not super keen to use it if copper will be excellent too. Maybe some 'ordinary' enamelled copper wire would do a good job..?
One more thing: when you say gauge, do you mean AWG or SWG?
Thanks,
-Simon |
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| tom1356 |
What made this so affordable was the wire was un-insulated and sourced from a jewelry supplier like Myron Tobac.
It is sold by the ounce and very inexpensive.
I use the fine silver but for resistors maybe the sterling would be better.
I mean AWG.
I have thought of a better way to do the winding.
I will wind two un-insulated silver wires at the same time right next to each other tightly, when done I secure one wire and unwrap the other one. This leaves a perfect void between each wind for the second layer to sit in after the first is enameled.
All in all it should make for a nice tight wind.
I have a lot of silver in the chain and every little bit more has helped.
I am impatiently waiting for my silver foil PIO Mundorf coupling caps to arrive from Germany.
And I just ordered the wire for a few DIY 16 AWG solid silver power cords for my SACD player and mono blocks.
I've yet to have copper win a listening test so I will replace them with silver ones.
Radio shacks magnet wire pack should allow you to experiment for very little money.
Let us know how you do. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | How on earth was your silver wire so cheap?!?!? |
Silver isn't actually as expensive as most people think...
There's silver and there's silver though; don't use jeweler silver for audio, it's not nearly pure enough.
The problem Tom's project is facing is that he may have to order a one off and that often involves a minimum order of 2 Kgs of silver which quickly amounts to 2K Euro.
Cheers,;) |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
Silver isn't actually as expensive as most people think...
There's silver and there's silver though; don't use jeweler silver for audio, it's not nearly pure enough.
The problem Tom's project is facing is that he may have to order a one off and that often involves a minimum order of 2 Kgs of silver which quickly amounts to 2K Euro.
Cheers,;) |
I am not quite ready to make that jump.
But I'm not too far. :)
By the way, thanks for all your help.
Any interest in a group buy on some quality insulated silver wire?
It would be great for interconnects also I bet. Maybe in a litz design.
I should clarify that I have not bought anything from Myron Tobac but I know others have recommended them.
The price estimate was based on their .999 fine silver wire prices. Which I think would be a great place to start with this experiment. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | By the way, thanks for all your help. |
It was my pleasure, Tom.
Keep in mind that most (93%) of all silver wire used in the audio industry comes from the US (one single company), goes through Europe and ends up in MM, MC cartridges, IC and LS wire in the most respected high-end companies...
In this case it would be apropiate to say you've been talking to the horse's mouth directly....Sort of as I' the man behind the design scene.
Best of luck, ;) |
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| SimontY |
Hi,
Thanks for all the info Tom. I'm actually rather reluctant to put any silver in my system, nearly always it's sounded too bright. I guess the colouration it received doesn't suit my speakers and rest of my system. I realise the harshness is probably due to impure silver and/or using too thin conductors.
I think I'll try some resistors using copper instead for now, at least until I find somewhere that isn't a rip-off! I know people who work for a silverware company and can get things at trade price. Needless to say I asked about wire.. they don't do it :( Not that I think using sterling (92.5% iirc) silver could possibly be as good as pure copper.
| quote: | | Keep in mind that most (93%) of all silver wire used in the audio industry comes from the US (one single company), goes through Europe and ends up in MM, MC cartridges, IC and LS wire in the most respected high-end companies... |
Interesting, and to me that explains perfectly why silver gets such a bad press for sound quality!! (if poor silver is compared to good copper...) Ah, you didn't mean 93% purity did you...? Well, it could still be the reason.
Hmm, you mention Radioshack, I wish we had that in the UK! We used to have Tandy, which is similar, but I think that's all but gone now. I have to put up with comparatively costly Maplins and Farnell...
I like your new winding method Tom, sounds good.
I really need to get my x-overs offboard before doing this!
Thanks,
-Simon |
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| GaryB |
| quote: | Originally posted by tom1356
Any interest in a group buy on some quality insulated silver wire? It would be great for interconnects also I bet. Maybe in a litz design. |
Not currently in the market for silver wire, but I know a few folks who have bought teflon insulated silver wire from the following folks:
http://www.a-msystems.com/physiolog.../silvertef.aspx
They make this for medical work, so its quite high quality. The people I know used it to rewire tonearms and were pleased with the result. Some of this wire is very thin and easy to break, so be sure to get an appropriate diameter.
---Gary |
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| mrfeedback |
In my experience, silver plated copper, or pure silver wire does not go well with lead containing solders - adds a nasty note that is not there with lead-free solders, and not there with silver free wires or solders.
Silver + lead solders sound nasty to my ear also.
I think this is some of the basis of bad press regarding silver.
Eric. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | In my experience, silver plated copper, or pure silver wire does not go well with lead containing solders |
Well, well, well....I do agree with that statement.
According to research done by the guys from Isoda Electric lead sounds dirty and muddy.
| quote: | | I think this is some of the basis of bad press regarding silver. |
Since when is this going on? Any references on this?
Cheers,;) |
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| SimontY |
Well, when I made my silver interconnects, I used lead-free solder I think, and it was silver-loaded, and not cheap. The sound took everyones ears off who heard it. It was snappy and detailed, but so what?
I guess it works in some systems, but I've heard few that are truly free from harshness, so I doubt many could accomodate this kind of wire... Would thicker gauge help with this?
-Simon |
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| mrfeedback |
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
Well, when I made my silver interconnects, I used lead-free solder I think, and it was silver-loaded, and not cheap. The sound took everyones ears off who heard it. It was snappy and detailed, but so what?
I guess it works in some systems, but I've heard few that are truly free from harshness, so I doubt many could accomodate this kind of wire... Would thicker gauge help with this?
-Simon |
Hi Simon,
The solder is the mission critical bit.
There are two types of solder containing silver - those containing lead (60%Tin,38%Lead,2%Silver) and those without (96%Tin, 4%Silver).
The lead type hardens to a pretty very shiny silver colour, and the lead free type cools to a frosted appearance - you will know which is which.
The shiny ones suck sonically with solid silver wire and silver plated copper wire and produces highs that will drive your dog out of the room - it sounds like this is what you have.
The dull looking ones are harder to do correctly, and if anything give an ever so slightly quieting characteristic that improves audibility of low level stuff and never gets nasty sounding - I know which I prefer.
In my experince good silver with appropriate solder gives nice detail and quietness, and does not get nasty, snappy or fatiguing.
Eric. |
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| SimontY |
| Interesting. I'll try again one day :) |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
Hi,
Thanks for all the info Tom. I'm actually rather reluctant to put any silver in my system, nearly always it's sounded too bright. I guess the colouration it received doesn't suit my speakers and rest of my system. I realise the harshness is probably due to impure silver and/or using too thin conductors.
I think I'll try some resistors using copper instead for now, at least until I find somewhere that isn't a rip-off! I know people who work for a silverware company and can get things at trade price. Needless to say I asked about wire.. they don't do it :( Not that I think using sterling (92.5% iirc) silver could possibly be as good as pure copper.
Interesting, and to me that explains perfectly why silver gets such a bad press for sound quality!! (if poor silver is compared to good copper...) Ah, you didn't mean 93% purity did you...? Well, it could still be the reason.
Hmm, you mention Radioshack, I wish we had that in the UK! We used to have Tandy, which is similar, but I think that's all but gone now. I have to put up with comparatively costly Maplins and Farnell...
I like your new winding method Tom, sounds good.
I really need to get my x-overs offboard before doing this!
Thanks,
-Simon |
The brightness blamed on silver is just more of the signal (detail) getting through. You should have to make some adjustments with speakers/crossovers to adjust for this. The speakers you own were voiced with copper and it's inherent drawbacks in mind. You will need to adjust.
| quote: | Originally posted by GaryB
Not currently in the market for silver wire, but I know a few folks who have bought teflon insulated silver wire from the following folks:
http://www.a-msystems.com/physiolog.../silvertef.aspx
They make this for medical work, so its quite high quality. The people I know used it to rewire tonearms and were pleased with the result. Some of this wire is very thin and easy to break, so be sure to get an appropriate diameter.
---Gary |
This would be fine for interconnects but the Teflon will be to thick to wind resistors from. The insulation needs to be an enamel type.
| quote: | Originally posted by mrfeedback
In my experience, silver plated copper, or pure silver wire does not go well with lead containing solders - adds a nasty note that is not there with lead-free solders, and not there with silver free wires or solders.
Silver + lead solders sound nasty to my ear also.
I think this is some of the basis of bad press regarding silver.
Eric. |
Very interesting. I only use lead free solder so I can't comment on the combination of lead and silver.
If you can get silver "right" in your system it's a whole new ballgame.
This is winding one of a 1.8 ohm resistor. This shows the second wire removed and clear lacquer applied.
It's not as perfect as I hoped but it is a lot better than the last winding method. The second layer will go in the voids between the winds. |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by SimontY
....It was snappy and detailed, but so what?
-Simon |
I heard this also and I couldn't wait to do whatever it took to get more.
Such is the road I'm on...every step is another joy to behold. |
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| Squalish |
It occurs to me that a lathe set on low speed w/ one of these spindles would make an ideal winding machine. Either hand-feed the wire slowly and carefully along its length or find some way to regulate moving the wire along, either way, you'll wind the whole thing in under a minute. (This is assuming you drop the 'between the wire' placement thing, but I don't understand why it's used).
Are you sure there's no shorts in the above spindle? A short, if I understand the principle correctly, would both lower the resistance very slightly and increase the inductance by making the direction the magnetic field is being pushed nonsymmetric. Without an LC meter or a very, very sensitive ohmeter, you wouldn't necessarily know it, either. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by tom1356
The brightness blamed on silver is just more of the signal (detail) getting through. You should have to make some adjustments with speakers/crossovers to adjust for this. The speakers you own were voiced with copper and it's inherent drawbacks in mind. You will need to adjust. |
Hmmm. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
If the brightness is due to more of the signal getting through, then how can you adjust for it except by letting less of the signal get through? And if you let less of the signal get through, then you're right back where you started, no?
se |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Hmmm. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
If the brightness is due to more of the signal getting through, then how can you adjust for it except by letting less of the signal get through? And if you let less of the signal get through, then you're right back where you started, no?
se |
More of the signal meaning more detail due to a lower noise floor.
Adjust the level of the tweeter with a slightly larger silver resistor to reduce it's total output.
As a side note if you remove the distortion in the upper frequencies from the rest of the system you may end up prefering a slightly brighter high end. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | If the brightness is due to more of the signal getting through, then how can you adjust for it except by letting less of the signal get through? And if you let less of the signal get through, then you're right back where you started, no? |
Yeah...my thoughts exactly.
I'll tell you what happens though, it let's you hear what's wrong with the system.
Most people find CD too bright for their liking (some are) and (un)consciously try to compensate for it.
Maybe they should visit a recording studio or listen to a mastertape first?
With silver wire, the more you use it throughout the chain the more you'll like it.
Often it's like hearing recordings as they really sound for the first time, quite like the mastertape.
Cheers,;) |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by tom1356
More of the signal meaning more detail due to a lower noise floor.
Adjust the level of the tweeter with a slightly larger silver resistor to reduce it's total output. |
If it's just a lowering of the noise floor, then you shouldn't have to adjust anything. Just enjoy the lower noise floor.
But how is the noise floor reduced by silver? At least in this context where you're using it to create a resistor. All else being equal, silver is a bit more conductive than copper so for a given gauge and length of wire, silver will have a lower noise floor by virtue of its lower resistance.
But in this case, you're using the silver to create a resistor which I assume will be the same value as any other resistor you'd use and since silver is more conductive than say copper, you'd have to use a greater length to get the same resistance and if your silver resistor has the same resistance, it will have the same noise as if you'd made the same resistor out of copper.
So where is the noise floor being reduced?
se |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | So where is the noise floor being reduced? |
It's not....
Whether someone prefers the sound of a silver wire resistor over an equivalent copper wire one I can understand completely but noise floor hasn't got anything to do with it...
Ciao,;) |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Yeah...my thoughts exactly.
I'll tell you what happens though, it let's you hear what's wrong with the system. |
Perhaps. Whatever it may be doing or not doing, if one doesn't care for the end result, it doesn't make much difference anyway. :)
| quote: | Most people find CD too bright for their liking (some are) and (un)consciously try to compensate for it.
Maybe they should visit a recording studio or listen to a mastertape first? |
Hmmmm. I've always wondered about the logic of that. It seems to imply that a master tape is somehow objectively "perfect" when in fact they are made using subjective evaluation in an acoustical environment quite different from the typical listening room and using equipment you typically don't see advertised in the pages of TAS and Stereophile.
And of course unless you listened to a master tape of a recording you already have, how could any meaningful comparison be made?
| quote: | | With silver wire, the more you use it throughout the chain the more you'll like it. |
That may work for you and others, but it hasn't worked for me.
| quote: | | Often it's like hearing recordings as they really sound for the first time, quite like the mastertape. |
Hmmmm. How does one know what a recording really sounds like? All we can possibly know is what a recording sounds like after passing through the filter of the acoustical environment and electronics with which it's being reproduced.
Therefore it seems to me that it just boils down to which filters one prefers.
se |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
It's not....
Whether someone prefers the sound of a silver wire resistor over an equivalent copper wire one I can understand completely but noise floor hasn't got anything to do with it... |
It would seem so. Even if I put a 100k ohm resistor across my speaker terminals (which will have FAR FAR more noise than any length of wire that would ever be used) I can't hear any more noise than if I short the terminals.
se |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | And of course unless you listened to a master tape of a recording you already have, how could any meaningful comparison be made? |
And that's exactly the point. If you don't have at least one solid reference, what can you do?
| quote: | | It seems to imply that a master tape is somehow objectively "perfect" when in fact they are made using subjective evaluation in an acoustical environment quite different from the typical listening room and using equipment you typically don't see advertised in the pages of TAS and Stereophile. |
Nobody's implying that a master is perfect, but it's what copies are made of...copies that are certainly less perfect than the original, even digital copies.
You have to draw the line somewhere, without an anchor you have no way to turn.
| quote: | | That may work for you and others, but it hasn't worked for me. |
I am sorry to hear that, it works fine for me but then I do run a finely tuned system with a lot of attention paid to detail...
Works with copper wiring as well, but on a slightly inferior level.
| quote: | | Therefore it seems to me that it just boils down to which filters one prefers. |
To my mind, it's not down to what I prefer but to how close the system is to the source...
Personal preferences are ultimately just that.
Cheers, ;) |
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| Magura |
hmm...as far as im concerned, silver is used to reduce resistance.....now making resistors of silver dosnt sound right...does it???
Magura |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magura
hmm...as far as im concerned, silver is used to reduce resistance.....now making resistors of silver dosnt sound right...does it??? |
They seem to sound fine to tom1356. :)
Which is ultimately all that matters.
se |
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| sully |
Hi tom..
Although I've never tried silver, here is a nice way to wind..
Take the length of wire you need...fold it in half..
Take the folded end, and start winding with that...put a second, any guage wire (say, a yellow wire) between the two silver ones (in the middle of the fold), and one to the outside right of it (say, blue)..in other words, wrap four wires on the tube at a time..with the silver alternating with the others..you should see silver, yellow, silver, blue, silver, yellow, and so on...
The yellow and blue wires are just spacers to hold the silver wire an exact, even distance...this method allows you to use any guage yellow and blue wires to maintain even spacing..as long as you wrap tightly, with the folded end held well, then you can remove the yellow/blue wires..Or, you can use fishing line as spacers, and leave them in place..
Hope this helps..
Cheers, John |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by sully
Although I've never tried silver, here is a nice way to wind..
Take the length of wire you need...fold it in half..
Take the folded end, and start winding with that...put a second, any guage wire (say, a yellow wire) between the two silver ones (in the middle of the fold), and one to the outside right of it (say, blue)..in other words, wrap four wires on the tube at a time..with the silver alternating with the others..you should see silver, yellow, silver, blue, silver, yellow, and so on...
The yellow and blue wires are just spacers to hold the silver wire an exact, even distance...this method allows you to use any guage yellow and blue wires to maintain even spacing..as long as you wrap tightly, with the folded end held well, then you can remove the yellow/blue wires..Or, you can use fishing line as spacers, and leave them in place.. |
Clever!
I see you survived the sand crabs. I guess I didn't send enough of 'em after you. :)
Welcome back, John!
se |
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| sully |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Clever!
I see you survived the sand crabs. I guess I didn't send enough of 'em after you. :)
Welcome back, John!
se |
Thanks..
Luckily, the moped outran them..nice try, but they have to be able to make at least 5 mph to catch the moped cowboy!!! Shoulda sent alaskan kings..I had the butter ready..
Cheers, John |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by sully
Luckily, the moped outran them..nice try, but they have to be able to make at least 5 mph to catch the moped cowboy!!! |
CURSES! Foiled again! I should have anticipated the moped and given them a supply of crack. :)
| quote: | | Shoulda sent alaskan kings..I had the butter ready.. |
We gotcher butter raiiight heah, pal!
Hmmm. Where's that crotch-grabbing emoticon?
se |
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| tom1356 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magura
hmm...as far as im concerned, silver is used to reduce resistance.....now making resistors of silver dosnt sound right...does it???
Magura |
I agree with your thoughts but in practise these are very good sounding.
See here for more info.
http://www.audio-consulting.ch/silv...er_resistor.htm
| quote: | Originally posted by sully
Hi tom..
Although I've never tried silver, here is a nice way to wind..
Take the length of wire you need...fold it in half..
Take the folded end, and start winding with that...put a second, any guage wire (say, a yellow wire) between the two silver ones (in the middle of the fold), and one to the outside right of it (say, blue)..in other words, wrap four wires on the tube at a time..with the silver alternating with the others..you should see silver, yellow, silver, blue, silver, yellow, and so on...
The yellow and blue wires are just spacers to hold the silver wire an exact, even distance...this method allows you to use any guage yellow and blue wires to maintain even spacing..as long as you wrap tightly, with the folded end held well, then you can remove the yellow/blue wires..Or, you can use fishing line as spacers, and leave them in place..
Hope this helps..
Cheers, John |
Thanks for the advice. I will give it a try. |
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| Bernhard |
One question:
( By the way I am fascinated by teflon insulated pure silver wire, silvermica caps, pure gold relais contacts and so on )
What does it help to have the most sophisticated parts on the playback side, if the signal is already spoiled on the recording side by magnetic resistors :xeye: , cheap op amps :hot: and electrolytic coupling caps :cannotbe:
:confused:
Greetings, Bernhard |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bernhard
What does it help to have the most sophisticated parts on the playback side, if the signal is already spoiled on the recording side by magnetic resistors :xeye: , cheap op amps :hot: and electrolytic coupling caps :cannotbe:
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If you don't want to have the exactly the same sound they have in recording studio (magnetic resistors :xeye: , cheap op amps :hot: and electrolytic coupling caps :) ) , you use better components and they add slightly better flavour, because nothing is really neutral. It doesn't matter what they use to make a recording. At home, your equipment will always have a sound of its own and you tailor it to your taste. It's just that better recordings will sound better
If you don't care much, you use "magnetic resistors :xeye: , cheap op amps :hot: and electrolytic coupling caps :cannotbe:" at home too. If your taste is more refined, you might use "teflon insulated pure silver wire, silvermica caps, pure gold relais contacts and so on..";) |
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| theChris |
| btw, aren't you worried about skin effect on these resistors? i mean people get all worked up about skin effect on wire killing their highs and this seems to be a lot of wire. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | What does it help to have the most sophisticated parts on the playback side, if the signal is already spoiled on the recording side by magnetic resistors , cheap op amps and electrolytic coupling caps |
Hmmm....Soundengineers???
Aren't those the people that went to school for years in a row so they'd learn to think up every conceivable way to mess up a nice sounding recording?
It seems some do but then you won't actually buy those recordings, or would you?
Cheer up Bernhard, there are more well recorded records out there than you'll ever be able to afford, regardless of your taste in music.
Errr...great post Peter, LOL.
Cheers,;) |
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