| ajju |
| quote: | | I am ready to set up a listening session next weekend-Dec 6/7 at my place. |
:cool: :D :D
Is e'one else comfortable with the timing...?? |
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| gjo |
Gentlemen
I suggest that you call me at home 5478460/5473007 to confirm, during the next couple of days so that we can set things up.
I will have two power amps-a 35 wpc valve push pull and a solid state 55 wpc AKSA, with a solid state preamp, with a 12 inch powered sub driven by a 250 watts amp. The speakers will be a ported two way using Focal drivers and Raven ribbon tweeters. This is my audio system. If I can do it, we can try and audition the system that my sons use, a ported two way with Scanspeak
drivers. This is also an excellent system. (I have another powered sub, a 12 inch in a sealed box, but lugging it back and forth may not be easy.)
I will have some reference music on hand- female vocals(Diana Krall, Patricia Barber, Eva Cassidy, etc) bluegrass, rock, special effects stuff. My sons and I have a fair collection of CDs, so if you guys have any specific preferences let me know, it is possible that I have it, or bring it along! And before I forget, beer is on the house..
I would guess we can have a session from about 11 to 12.30 on Sunday?
George
P.S. Ashok, for your visit here I will bring out the other asli aur purana maal! |
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| navin |
ashok/george, would like to know about the 35W push pull. BTW how does the ASKA compare to the Aelph. Also I would like to know why George used solid state for preamp and tubes for power and not the other way around. does is make any difference?
enjoy your selves lads. one day i'll find my self in bang and i promise to be packing some mal too. |
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| gjo |
Navin
Welcome any time (with or without maal!), just give me adequate notice.
The solid state preamp was bought a while ago-Now I'm looking for a tube preamp:confused: ! I have researched various tube preamp kits, and am homing in on a few possibilities. I may plan to bring kit back with me when I visit the US next year. Question is whether to bring a golf set or preamp.. (Bringing both back may attract undue attention from Customs)
Dont know enough about the Aleph, so I cant comment, but the 35 wpc push pull is nice. It uses very high quality components like Mangequest OPTs, KimberKable, etc etc..It's a design similar to the old Dynaco ST-70, but a variation with some tweaks.I havent upgraded it with the Caddock resisters and Multicap caps, was told by Ron Welborne that they improve the sound, so I bought the upgrade along with some DH Labs cable for my interconnects. The AKSA kit came with the Nirvana upgrade first time around, it is also good, though sonically a bit different.
Let the others give their comments after our Sunday session!
George |
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| navin |
| thanks for the info. am leaving now. see u guys dec 7th. |
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| gjo |
Hi Ajju & Sunil
Good having you guys over yesterday, sorry I couldnt get my sub working in the listening room-it does make a huge difference.. I hope you enjoyed the Welborne Labs amp (yes a little fine tuning will remove some of the background sound coming from the left channel, I think) and the AriaR speaker system as well as the Patricia Barber/Eva Cassidy/Diana Krall.
Thanks for the music Sunil, I enjoyed listening to it after you left. Do give me your call and let me have your phone number, we will meet up again..Ajju, look forward to your email, offlist.
George |
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| navin |
| kaunsa daru piya? :-) |
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| gjo |
It was a day in memory of Morarji (that doesnt mean crotch whisky or ********y). I offered them beer, but both the guys were going in to work, so they declined.
Jab aap yahan ayenge tab asli maal nikalenge |
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| gjo |
| (Crotch whisky or p*ssky) |
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| ajju |
| quote: | | Good having you guys over yesterday... |
Thanks George..for the session...It was nice...Only issue was all of us were in a hurry and we listened less and talked more..:)
But it was nice...Unfortunately Lambda sub dint like the visitors i believe... But whatever listening session we had, was quite good...
and i think i've become a fan of Eva cassidy already...
Interestingly...the music was on and we were chatting away to glory...and there was panic...there seemed to be a whistling sound coming from somewhere...all of us were puzzled as to what happened...George started for his setup...we started pulling out our phones...in an attempt to identify what the hell was the sound...soon we realised that it was nothing but a part of the music beeing played...:D
So that explains the quailty of the sound...! the welbornes and the focal/raven combination managed to fool us..!!
Then George showed us his ongoing HT project...cabinets for his surround + a finished centre channel...
Next time, George & Sunil, strictly all music and no talk...:D
ajju |
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| sunil |
George,
Thanx for having us over. It was the first time I was listening to a tube-amp. I miss the dynamics of a solid-state. Got to check out your A55's sometime. Also, the Aria/Sub combo.
Next time we'll have a proper ****-up & listening session. Let's meet up again.
Hope you liked the "Jacques Loussier".
tel: 51383464 (O) / 5495268 (R)
Cheers,
sunil |
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| gjo |
Hi Sunil & Ajju
I will get the sub working over the weekend, since my elder son will be here by Friday for his Christmas holidays. he is more interested in these things. I will let you know when the sub-sat combo is up and running. You need to listen to my sealed sub as well, to get the flavour of the PR enclosure a little better-it is really punchy! Also the Scanspeak driven Eire system. As Sunil said, we will do it properly next time, with some good lubricant-preferably 12 year old!
Sunil, just let me know when you want to listen to the A55 at your place with your speakers, you can borrow it for a weekend, when my sons arent listening to it-I will rig up my Onkyo AV receiver for them during that period..
We need to swap some fo the stuff that we talked about, when we meet up. I'd like to come over to your place and see your ste up and your music as well. J. Loussier is different and good..
George |
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| roadkill |
Hi Ajju,| quote: | | if u r somwhere near koramangala region there are a host of shops that sell plywood and glass..In fact there is a huge store on outer ring road ..they seem to have all kind of material...! And i've found nuwud at a couple of places..! Let me know if u want to check them out...! |
Could you pass along the address of the Outer Ring Road store? I stay in CV Raman Nagar, so I'm guessing it should be nearby. I'm planning my first floorstander, using some Vifa drivers from Corrson. I've looked in vain for PVC laminate (like what Corrson offers, but in other patterns) and/or *real* veneer (not dyed plywood). Hope this place you mentioned has it. Thanks!
Any ideas what I can use for spacers (ie, stands) on my speakers? I dont want to use spikes (which Corrson has, btw). The plastic (nylon) stands for furniture look quite ugly.
Rod Elliott mentions "Tee-Nuts" on his site, with an apology that he doesnt know what it's real name is... anyone knows what they're called around here? |
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| ajju |
| quote: | | Could you pass along the address of the Outer Ring Road store? I stay in CV Raman Nagar, so I'm guessing it should be nearby |
Sorry, I dont know the exact address. But i can tell u where it is..
outer ring road...ends in a T junction...left to surjapur, rt to silk board jn (u'll see mantri, shobha sun city all at this place..) proceed towards silkboard/koramangala.. Its like a double road...either side of the road is armed forces trainig/firing range..keep moving..u'll find a small junction with couple of traffic islands..(there will be a gas station on ur rt., a huge lonely tree trunk on one of the islands.) Keep left and proceed further...on ur left u'll get a hospital...further down u get the another gas station...further down u'll find a dried up lake on ur rt..
next u'll hit a traffic signal (there will be some overhead high tension wires crossing the road) proceed further...at around 200 250 mts u'll find a huge timber mart to the rt... (its on the service road on ur rt...so u might have to go a lil further to get on to this road.)
Now if u dont find it here propable we can have a look at bomna halli there are a 100 shops there...!! there is a good chance that u'll also find tnuts there...!
| quote: | | (like what Corrson offers, but in other patterns) and/or *real* veneer (not dyed plywood). Hope this place you mentioned has it. Thanks! |
Let me know when u plan to visit...probably we can meet up and hunt together...!
| quote: | | Any ideas what I can use for spacers (ie, stands) on my speakers? I dont want to use spikes (which Corrson has, btw). The plastic (nylon) stands for furniture look quite ugly. |
May i ask y you dont want ot use spikes...
another alternative coulld be some small door knobs.if u find something suitable...if ur lucky you might get some nice wood ones....?? :D
| quote: | | "Tee-Nuts" on his site, with an apology that he doesnt know what it's real name is... |
I guess its the same...basically it is a normal nut bolt combo...
only thing is that nut will have something like fins/spikes if u may call so..when tightened(or hammered down) it helps to keep the nuts in place and more importantly prevent them from rotating (without any assist) when a bolt is tightened on to it..!
ajju |
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| roadkill |
Thanks for the detailed reply, ajju! I'm planning to have a look today. Will post results when I get back.| quote: | | May i ask y you dont want ot use spikes... |
Don't want a scratched floor, my boxes, I expect, will weigh quite a bit. Besides, I'm not golden-eared and I can't hear the difference anyway. |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by ajju
I guess its the same...basically it is a normal nut bolt combo...
only thing is that nut will have something like fins/spikes if u may call so..when tightened(or hammered down) it helps to keep the nuts in place and more importantly prevent them from rotating (without any assist) when a bolt is tightened on to it..! |
You get T-nuts in Lohar Chawl in Bombay. I'd posted something to this end. They are made of some sort of steel which will rust with time. They don't seem to have any brass T-nuts here. Dias are 5mm and 6mm; I haven't seen any slimmer. Angshu says that they become a pain to use when they rust, because you can't unscrew the bolt then.
On the spikes issue, I feel the same as Roadkill. I don't see why people should use them in Indian homes with cement or hard tiled floors. I thought the need for spikes was only to couple with wooden floors, and to cut through carpets to the floor beneath. I have seen commercial speaker manuals saying that the user should use spikes only under these circumstances; they were "optional".
Variac's modified Basszillas don't have spikes, I think. I'm in the process of building some floor-standers which, I'm afraid, will weigh 60-80Kg per enclosure. I intend to put one pair of wheels and one pair of nylon/wooden "buffers" (small, inch-high feet) below them. Comments welcome. :) |
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| ajju |
btw roadkill...seems like ur mailbox is full or something wrong..
the mail i send bounced...!
ajju |
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| roadkill |
I just checked out that ring-road shop today... it's amazing! They have good quality pre-laminated MDF in 8x4 sheets, quite a wide range of patterns, too! I was really amazed by the owner, who seemed both knowledgable and helpful. My stop there was very brief, so all I did was enquire about cherry-veneered MDF.... he had a nice sample, and said it'd cost Rs. 65/sqft. He also had some veneer strips to use on the edges. Good stuff!
I will get my wood from him, even if transport costs a bit more!
EDIT: sorry, I'm not sure why my email provider sometimes eats up some of my mail. I tried sending a test message to myself from DIYAudio and it worked. |
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| Vivek |
Roadkill,
What drivers do you plan to use for your floorstander?
Ajju,
How is your project coming along?
Mine has ground to a halt. I have made the boxes (90 litres each. Will make two compartments as you suggested), cut the holes and mounted drivers, lined the inside with poly fibre, crossovers are ready. Need to do the testing with Speaker Workshop.
Did either of you find the T nuts?
Vivek |
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| roadkill |
I wanted to use a Vifa TC18WG49 for each speaker. I initially considered a 3-way, using a pair of 4" Peerless India drivers I have, but then the crossover design got a bit hairy, and I'm not confident winding so many inductors. So it's a two-way, with the Vifas for woofers and a locally available 1" dome tweeter (marked BPL industries, but I'm doubtful). They sound good, tho, and have a resonance freq. of 1.5kHz. The peak is not very much higher than average, only rises to about 18 ohms (8.8 ohm nominal), measured with Speaker Workshop and an impedance jig. Could it be they are damped with ferro fluid? I bought these tweeters from SP road, this guy named "Speaker Babu". You can identify the shop from the constant "bump bump" of too many subs playing Hindi film music remixes :yuck:
No, no tee nuts for today. I got Two Towers on DVD and proceeded to watch the battle scenes about 20 times :) This is getting *way* off topic. What say we start a Wiki on getting components in B'lore, Mumbai, etc.? That way the endless-thread-itis prevalent will not be so bad. Think it's still OK to have 20-page threads? Try searching for info through them, and wade through tons of posts quite like this one... :whazzat: |
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| navin |
| if the tweeter got a peak at 1.5k you want to XO atleast at 3k. (12db or more). I feel the TC18 might be hard pressed to operate above 2.5k. if you like a silghtly laid back design you might expriment with XOing the TC18 at 25.k and the tweeter at 3k. 12db LR should do nicely. |
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| Vivek |
Roadkill,
I am using the TC18WG49 too with D27 tweeters. What box volume are you using and is it a ported design?
I am using 12dB Bessels for both LP and HP filters. I was wondering if I should reverse polarity for the tweeters. I have tried both but there does not seem to be much difference.
I was thinking whether we can use a simple bolt and nut with a washer on the inside to mount the drivers. Once a T nut in hammered in, it may be difficult to remove it in case it gets all rusty. What say?
Vivek |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vivek
I was thinking whether we can use a simple bolt and nut with a washer on the inside to mount the drivers. Once a T nut in hammered in, it may be difficult to remove it in case it gets all rusty. What say? |
I have been using ordinary pointed-end wood screws for mounting drivers. Drill a hole in the MDF somewhat thinner than the screw, and just tighten the screw in. Angshu says that MDF tends to crumble if you remove and re-fix such screws many times in the same hole. My answer to that is that I'll turn the driver around by 20-30deg and drill a fresh set of holes after the first two or three rounds, assuming that I'm regularly re-fixing and removing drivers.
Brass T-nuts would be cooler, of course. :cool:
Or one can try using the existing steel T-nuts and putting a dollop of grease inside each, where the threads are, before fixing them to the MDF. Thick grease should last a long time and will prevent rust from binding the nut to the bolt.
Just my 10-paise worth. |
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| navin |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vivek
Roadkill,
I am using the TC18WG49 too with D27 tweeters. What box volume are you using and is it a ported design?
I am using 12dB Bessels for both LP and HP filters.
Vivek |
at what freq?
brass T nuts are best and use brass screws too or teh rust of the screw will jam the t nut. i'd use silicone on steel t nuts it is a lot cleaner.
plain old nuts will loosen over time. a wood screw would be better. |
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| Vivek |
Tarun,
I did what you suggested i.e drill a hole smaller and use wood screws. I was just worried because the tweeter holes have already lost the threading.
Navin,
I have crossed them over at 2500Hz and internal volume will be 73L. That is what I got with an online box volume calculator. Of course, I need to do some testing with Speaker Workshop. But I do not have a measurement jig and I don't know when I will find time to do all that. But for now, I plan to just hook up all this and do some breaking in. The serious testing will come later.
Vivek |
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| navin |
| 73L for 1 6". looks awful big. check those measurements. i'd recomend about 20-30L. well if you have built the box maybe you can add a 6 or 8" later for BSC. |
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| Vivek |
I built the big box in case I decide to add a bigger woofer, perhaps for a 3 way or something like that. About the 20-30 L you are talking about, what alingment will it be? Win ISD says 73L while the calculator at www.lalena.com/audio says I need to use 55L for the TC18. I just do not understand.
Vivek |
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| navin |
Butterworth B4
Vas = 44 lts
fs = 37 Hz
Qts = 0.47
D = 13.8 cm
Dimensions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vb = 55.89 lts
= L x W x H
f3 = 31.87 Hz
fb = 35 Hz
Dv = 5.08 cm
Lv = -3.4 cm |
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| Vivek |
So, do I try with 55L first? Sorry to ask so many questions but I am confused.
Vivek |
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| navin |
is your box made. if not then i'd suggest 55L.
if the box is made use bricks etc.. to reduce volume. i box is made what are the dimensions? internal and external? |
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| Vivek |
I have made the box. i will use bricks or sand to fill up the box to attain the required volume. External dimensions: the box is 4 feet in height. So height is 121.7 cm, 25.8 cm width, 33.8 depth. I used 18mm MDF. Internal width is 22.2 and 30.2 is the depth.
Vivek |
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| navin |
| sand is good. make sure you use sand bags or sand will get in the gap. |
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| ajju |
| quote: | | How is your project coming along? Mine has ground to a halt. I have made the boxes (90 litres eachHow is your project coming along? |
Its all been stocked away ...!! I am very allergeic to dust..all that wood pvc cutting along with the blr weather took its toll..so now everything has been stacked away in one corner...every morning we look into each others eyes and (*sigh*) drag that helpless look onto our face..! :p :D..so thats what is happening with my proj..!
nice to know that u have finished ur boxes...put some sand bags into them and keep experimenting...also watch if the speaker cones flap around too hard...!!
btw u made all those inductors...? how did u wind and measure them..?
Roadkill:
so finally u managed to find the shop..?
btw do they also have plain veneers...? dont worry about transportation costs...probably we can use my truck if the boards fit in...:p
ajju |
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| Vivek |
I tested the speakers today. I made a compartment of 55L, put the polyfibre lining, made the ports, wired the crossovers etc. It sounds good. The depth in the bass can be felt but it does not go very loud. I wonder why. Perhaps that is all a TC18WG49 can do. I need to add braces. The vibration of the cabinets can be felt. But they are absolute beauties in my living room in the midst of my TV and Denon receiver. I wish I had a digital camera. I had to dismantle the whole thing again. I will only resume the bracing work next week. I will keep you all updated on the progress.
Cheers,
Vivek |
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| roadkill |
| quote: | | btw do they also have plain veneers |
Yep, they have them in both sheet form as well as thin strips to cover edges (if you're using prelam). Given that the Ring Road is nice and wide, I'm sure dad wont mind me driving :)
Navin, I'm using an XO of 2.8kHz, 2nd order Linkwitz. I'm tweaking the design a bit to compensate for the rolloff at 4kHz of the Vifa. I use a SPICE tool (freeware: LTSpice (aka SwitcherCad), from www.linear.com) to model the drivers, Zobel network and XO. The driver model is amazingly simple, just L(e) and R(e), will switch to a better model soon. I'm just a bit worried about how many kilometers of wire I'd have to wind to get a 1mH aircore inductor...
| quote: | | I am using the TC18WG49 too with D27 tweeters. What box volume are you using and is it a ported design? |
I thought of this, but- They're expensive
- I found a local alternative that sounds decent
My box will be a ported design, 48L. No particular alignment, just played around in WinISD till I got a decent freq. response, OK power handling and decent vent air velocity.
I have some pretty good looking machined round-head screws (anodized black) to use with my drivers. These are "straight shank" screws, apparently what you're supposed to use with MDF. I got them almost by accident, there's this hole-in-the-wall fastner shop down SP road (I will find out the name next time I go) where they had these. They also had straight-shank flat-headed screws (also anodized), which I've used in my current boxes to mount the tweeters. The attached image shows the two types of screws. In the background is my modded Logitech optical mouse... with a blue LED ;) |
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| navin |
the TC18 is a basic 6". it has a plastic basket. you cant expect earth shattering bass from it. in my small room it required help from a pair of 8" for the bass. I used an old pair of refurbished 8" woofers for now and surnajan (hunter) is gonna build me a pair. as soon as this arrives i should be better off. this might take a while as we live t opposite ends of the country (bom-cal).
right now i run the speaker without the bass if i want to listen at low volumes since the bass quality and lumpiness distracts from the music. this is quite simple for me as the bass 8" have their own amp and i simply keep that amp off. |
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| Vivek |
Navin, are you making a 3-way system or are the 8 inchers to be used as subs?
Vivek |
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| navin |
| subs. but i roll them off slowly so some BSC is compensated |
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| Vivek |
I am considering a 3 way now. I have a big cabinet anyway. Perhaps a Peerless India 8 inch woofer with the TC18 for the mids. What do you think?
Vivek |
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| roadkill |
| PI 8-inchers are fairly expensive. If I remember, they're upwards of Rs. 2500. Since local woofers such as Dainty and Bolton are a whole lot cheaper, why not try building a test box with those? I'm currently using a Bolton sub (8", Rs. 650) with my bookshelf speakers (PI 6.5" woofer, PI 1" tweeter) but it sounds quite bad. I suspect it's coz I made the box with leftover fiberboard from a home renovation... didn't even do any TS measurements. After these floorstanders, I will continue on the subs. |
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| navin |
| guys, hunter is working on a pair of 8"ers for me. if they work well i'll scream so you all can hear. they should be cheaper than PI. |
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| Vivek |
If I remember correctly, the PI 10 inch subs were around Rs. 2500. The 8 inchers were within Rs. 1000.
BTW, I have built a subwoofer with two 8 inch Bolton drivers. But I do more of 2 channel music listening than DD/dts. So I want to try and have only two main speakers for the music and use the sub only when I watch movies with DD/dts. That is why I was thinking of modifying my 2 way project and make it a three way one.
Vivek |
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| roadkill |
| An address would be great... |
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| ssSai |
Hello Everybody,
Sai is back and prepared (so to speak).
1> I got the bible "Loud Speaker Design CookBook" by Vance Dickanson
2> I got to know that there is no custom duty when a person gets something worth < Rs.25000 from abroad.
3> Some one is coming from Germany empty handed and is ready to get me a driver!!
4> I have $300 to spare for a subwoofer!!!!
PLEASE GUYS, LET ME KNOW WHICH WOULD BE THE BEST ONE TO GET FROM GERMANY. PLEASE!! PLEASE!!! PLEASE!!! |
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| ssSai |
Also,
Can anyone give me URLs where in I can download the demo version of softwares which help one in designing the enclosures.
I am not taking chances with my first project (just safeguarding my woofer driver. I dont mind playing with the enclosure). I will be trying a sealed enclosure (though a ported one would require a lower wattage amplifier for the same output).
I now know a person who will get me 3/4" MDFs.
Clueless as far as Araldite (in the quantities I want) is concerned.
I also know where to buy the Silicone sealant.
Clueless again regarding the Terminal Cups.
I even dont know where to get the relavant information. That is where this gooooood forum comes into play. MY DEAR FELLOW FORUM BROTHERS!!! :-) |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by ssSai
I am not taking chances with my first project (just safeguarding my woofer driver. I dont mind playing with the enclosure). I will be trying a sealed enclosure (though a ported one would require a lower wattage amplifier for the same output). |
Not sure about this, except at the resonant frequency of the box. Overall, including room gain, the differences may not be so black-and-white.
| quote: | | Clueless as far as Araldite (in the quantities I want) is concerned. |
I'm using Fevitite, an epoxy adhesive in two parts, just like Araldite. I bought a box of 1.8Kg for Rs.650 the other day.
| quote: | | Clueless again regarding the Terminal Cups. |
MX? Want some from Bombay? And in any case, I'm sure others including Ajju and Roadkill can help you for B'lore. |
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| navin |
look for box plot 3.0, lspcad lite. box plot will help with the box. lsp cad will help with the XO.
I dont know any german maufactuers that are usefiul for a beginer. cos like visaton are usualy for more advanced DIY.
maybe your friend can get you a pair of those new 10" woofers from Vifa. Denmark aint that far. Ask him to check KLANG and Ton. it is a german mag that deals in drivers. maybe he can source a retailer there. |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by navin
[B]look for box plot 3.0, lspcad lite. box plot will help with the box. lsp cad will help with the XO. |
Navin, there's no mention of LspCAD Lite on the LspCAD Website. Are you sure such a thing still exists? |
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| hunter audio |
ssai
you could get adire audio - s shivas or tumult
suranjan
transducer design engineer |
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| ssSai |
Hello Navin,
Though I am a beginner, my logic is that I would never drive the woofer to its limits. Hence I may use it again when I decide to change the enclosure (A ported one of course).
I will not get another chance to get woofers from abroad, hence the urgency for a good one having head room for "Advanced DIYing" as put forth by you.
I checked the VISATON site. RESULT: Clueless :xeye:
I searched for VIFA website on google but was unable to find the home page (official one).
TCPIP,
Where do I get FEVITITE in blore. Will run a check fast. Thanks.
Hunteraudio,
Do I get Shivas or anything for that matter from germany. I will have to import it from singapore right?? Some Zepplin guy if I am not wrong. |
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| ajju |
vifa
corrson does have some binding posts. You can check them out on his website.
Or you get MX (almost full range) from Vaishali electronics on SP road. This place is at the entrance, 3 or 4th shop on the right when you enter SP road from the oneway..SP road also is a One way, so ths shop is on the right when you move along the one way.. Opposite this place there is a shop which sells copper Al and brass bars/rods etc etc...
Ask for the MX catalogue, and you can pick what you want.
There are also gold plated stuff, but could be a bit costly..
Many thanks
ajju |
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| roadkill |
Lucky Sai, gets to use good drivers for a sub! According to some (including Shiva from Corrson), sub driver quality isn't that important. *shrug* I always thought they were the most difficult to design.
MX binding posts are available at two places. One is Khotari Electronics, which is on the SP road, some distance in, on the right. The other is on the left side, just as you enter SP road, there is a road going diagonally left. This shop is on the corner, and there is a big KEB transformer in front of it. They seem to be an MX authorized dealer, and the old man there is very helpful and patient (most surprising for a shop on SP road). I have bought many MX products from them, with no problems, including speaker terminal cups. Gold plated terminals, around 4 cm in dia cost 50 bucks. There are larger ones available, I haven't bought them.
Vifa's website is at www.d-s-t.com
I really have no idea how much one would cost, but you could try the 23W/4557T00 from Scan Speak. Seems like the "ultimate" woofer from DST's stable. Heck, the rest of us can only salivate and wonder...
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| Nisbeth |
The 23W4557 sells for $380 in the US (madisound). Efficiency is low (~83 dB/W/m) With the matching passive radiator ($180 from madisound) is sims to an F3 of around 29 Hz in a 17 ltr. (0.6 ft3) enclosure:bigeyes:
/U. |
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| ssSai |
Thankyou ppl,
I did check out the specs of the vifa driver (the hyperlink helped). I am surprised! Does not the Shiva from adire audio give more (a lot more) and also costs faaar less. Any way that is what branding to a product does.
Now, coming back to options I have. Dont you ppl think that only one option to choose from is a bit uncomfy. Germany man! Common......
Seriously, is the VIFA 23W/4557T00 the only option I have. Well I can some how manage $300, but $380! think in terms of rupees, I will have to be a miser for ummmmm another 2 months or so.
Thanks for the SP road's map guys. I am a computer geek and a gaming freak. So SP road is not ailen to me. I will give the two shops a visit and also convey your regards to that old guy with a lot of patience (I will test his patience first).
But PLEASE! some more options for the drivers. Will definitely not let you ppl down! Will get one from there and definitely post its pics as soon as it gets into my room. |
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| navin |
| Use google. i am sure it does somewhere. |
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| ssSai |
After a long search on google, I happened to find only one site which lists and sells drivers.
http://www.tronicaudio.com/shop_e/q...sid=20643449c0d
You have to click on the "driver types" hyperlink to get a list of what they sell. Then click on "subwoofer" hyperlink.
Any one interesed to comment on what they are selling. |
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| ssSai |
Hi! Nisbeth.
Any suggestions. |
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| ssSai |
Hello everybody,
I saw the specs for the peerless' range of XLS subwoofers. Seems pretty impressive.
Fs 18.6 Hz
F3 20 Hz
Qms 3.7
Xmax +/- 12.5mm
hyperlink: http://www.d-s-t.com/peerless/index.htm
Check the "308 mm round XLS subwoofer"
I checked the price on Madisound (Product code 830500) and it is $144. (compare this, spec to spec to the SHIVA from adire audio).
This should be a little cheaper in Germany/Denmark right? As per the website d-s-t..... there is one Peerless distributor in germany.
Suggestions, respected fellow forum members :apathic: |
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| navin |
forgot about the peerless. the peerless might make a better sub than the vifa. however i think the vifa might work better if your XO is higher (say in the range of 200-300Hz).
if you are looking for a pure sub (sub 100Hz) the peerless looks like a good bet.
BTW did you get to see Klang and Ton? |
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| ssSai |
Yes Navin,
I ran a search and surfed the links. Every thing is in german and google dose not make any sense when it translates the page.
By the looks of it, they are a part of a magazine if I am right. Apart from that I saw a lot of projects (do not know whether they are related to subs at all)
Navin,
I do want to make a real Sub. The range I am not sure yet. I will think about the mid bass and treble later.
What do you advice for the Peerless.........I would prefer to go in for a sealed enclosure (like any starter).
Any suggestions on the amplifier, crossover etc.
Any one for that matter. Do I zero in on the peerless?? |
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| gjo |
Sai
Prices in Europe are generally always higher than in the uS for this kind of stuff.
Comparing a US price for an Adire Shiva or a TC Sounds driver may not give you much idea of what these will cost when shipped to Germany, and there may be local customs duties, customs clearance fees as well as shipping costs involved. (That's why I get my drivers in my checked in baggage whenever I come from the US!)..
Having said that, you may want to check www.bamberglab.com, and see Phil Bamberg's Peerless based subwoofer designs to get an idea about how one well known designer goes about using these drivers.
George |
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| ssSai |
Thanks George,
When I am comparing the cost of the Shiva to the Peerless, dosent the fact count that the Peerless is made in Denmark (Virtually Germany). So where does the cost of import duty arise for a person buying Peerless in Germany.
If madisound puts the PEERLESS price at $144, then taking out all the extra costs he incurred, the cost of Peerless would be much (or a little) lesser in Germany right?
Regarding the checkin baggage stuff, good you reminded me. I will have to request that person to see to it that my driver is a part of his checkin baggage and not stashed away as extra baggage in the boot.
Right now I am checking out the bamberglab site.
:smash: FELLOW DIYers :smash:
DO I ZERO IN ON THE PEERLESS XLS 12"??
Putting your feet in my shoes, if you think I should go in..... then PEERLESS it is. I am giving myself another 2 days (before my weekend). I have worn another set of shoes to make way for you guys :D |
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| gjo |
Sai
Prices of European drivers ( or Indian Basmati) are generally significantly lower in the US than in the home markets. This is because of the very large volumes that the US market generates, which allows them to dictate prices, as well as the very low taxes. In the EU they have a VAT that may be quite high, but they dont have that in the US. In general IMHO, pricing in the US for any hardware of this type is unbeatable..
You may not have the luxury of ordering from the US and geting a driver shipped by surface mail within your time frame. There is also the risk of damage by shipping low cost surface. I think you wont go much wrong on the Peerless driver, though my own sub drivers are Lambdas and Audio Concept..There is not all that much difference between all of these.
Hope this helps
George |
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| ssSai |
PPl Any feedbacks, suggestions, DO I GO IN FOR PEERLESS.......
Feels dumb to use the smilies agains. Lets keep it simple.
PPL on this thread atleast, can you give me your opinions, second opinion is always good (I never had a first opinion though). |
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| ssSai |
George, I did surf the URL you sent me.
Infact I surfed through a lot many PEERLESS XLS sub.
I observe that the sub is meant for ported and dipole alignments.
Linkwitz and many have gone in for the dipole and most commercial ones have gone in for the sub and a passive radiator.
What do I infer from this.
Again, opinions please. |
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| navin |
| quote: | Originally posted by ssSai
I ran a search and surfed the links. Every thing is in german and google dose not make any sense when it translates the page.
...What do you advice for the Peerless.........I would prefer to go in for a sealed enclosure (like any starter)..1
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1st I must say that gjo is very correct in all he says. The Peerless XLS are good. As good as Audio Concepts (I use 4 x DV12 for my stereo sub, 2 per channel), Lambda etc...
The only Peerless sub I have built was a 3 chamber bandpass using 2 10" (1727) in the early 90s. The subs performed as designed (does not mean I liked them). Powered by an Adcom GFA555 (circa '85 200W power amp). However I felt these drivers were under utilised. They offered enough resolution to be use as high as 300Hz. but this is another story.
I think you can do a lot worse than Peerless. They make good drivers. Yes the US is a good deal cheaper even for european drivers (just like jap cars are cheaper in the US than in their home country) but after you count shipping and other hassles I'd suggest you get a local (german) supplier and this is why i recomended Klang ang Ton.
when I lived in Germany the classfieds in Klang and Ton were very useful. |
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| navin |
| hey dudes what about eton. they are german right. the 11-580 should make a good sub too. |
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| tcpip |
| quote: | Originally posted by ssSai
PPl Any feedbacks, suggestions, DO I GO IN FOR PEERLESS.......
Feels dumb to use the smilies agains. Lets keep it simple.
PPL on this thread atleast, can you give me your opinions, second opinion is always good (I never had a first opinion though). |
I feel you've reached the stage now where you can build at least one subwoofer. Once you reach that stage, I feel the best policy for you would be to BSL (Build Something and Listen). Stop asking further questions, stop thinking any more about alternatives, just go with whatever is accessible to you, and just BSL.
I don't want to be curt or rude at all, I really think we all sometimes go overboard with the discussing and forget to BSL. You've already done the first 1% of learning, and the remaining 99% will only happen after you BSL. :)
I'm going BSL with my first significant speakers now... a MTMMM box with active xo and multi-amping. I've stopped thinking about whether the Boltons (16SJW22) or the Peerless tweeters (SR10DT) are the best in the world or whether the 2.5K xo freq will be ideal, or how much BSC I'll apply, or what the LT will be like. I'll now BSL.
Hope this made sense. :) |
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| gjo |
Hear, hear!
I couldnt agree more with Shri tcpip..
Sai, I think you will confuse yourself with doing too much research or asking for ideas/feedback/input, and may finally end up with nothing..Make a beginning, get your first project off the ground, go around and listen to other systems after you do your first one and observe, compare and enjoy the differences!
GO FOR PEERLESS!! Are you getting one or two drivers?
George |
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| ssSai |
As I told you george, I saw many projects which make use of the passive radiator. Do I get the passive radiator too from peerless??
If not, I might be getting two. |
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| gjo |
PR can be from any source, generally one gets PRs of the next larger size-10 inch driver is mated to 12 inch PR. If you want to listen to both, you can come for an audition to my place and listen to a sealed box as well as a PR alignment. I prefer PR, personally, but to each his own!
I am out of town from tonight until Thursday, but we can try fater that.
Rgds
George |
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| gjo |
Sai
Navin is correct-it is possible to have a PR with appropriate Mms even of the same size as the driver if designed right. You need to look up PR FAQs and ask the right questions to get more info..
I have been on the basslist(www.diyspeakers.org, I think is the url) for many years, and there are many knowledgeable people who have used Peerless, and most other well known drivers who can guide you on speaker related questions-subs, two ways etc. This is a group of diyers from all over the world, and are, is my view the best such discussion group available anywhere..They have collective wisdom on many related matters. I suggest you join this asap!
Rgds
George |
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| navin |
i was on the bass list at one time too. but the nise got too loud so i left. even here the noise sometimes gets a bit loud. in this case I usually just dont log on.
the bass list digest was too huge for me to sift through. i spend less than 10-15 mins per day on diyaudio.com. if it looks like i have logged on and not logged off it is because i often dont turn my latop off. |
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| ssSai |
I am checking out the options with the PR. As many of you pointed out, peerless has matched the 12" driver with a 12" PR.
I also saw this info elsewhere that you can thread in extra weights on to the PR (peerless has got threads to screw in the weights) to lower the subs range.
Thanks for the invitation George. I will definitely fix up a time and come to your place. But before that I really want to get the units from germany. That atleast gives me a reason, otherwise it will be rather damp.
Will be telling you guys as to how much does the USD 144 peerless cost in german currency (even I am damn curious). |
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| navin |
ok......here goes.....
a) addiing weight to a PR does TWO things. it lowers Fs by increasing MMs and it also lowers sensitivity. I have done some work with this sort of bass tuning (as well as others like using changable ports in bass reflex boxes, aperiodic vents in sealed boxes, etc...).
b) what you will find that for every room and for every genre of music in fact for every album a different bass tuning sounds best. You can drive your self nuts changing the tuning for every album or atleast for every producer (some producers like Alan Parsons are quite consistant).
c) my recomendation is to try the PR as supplied and then if the bass sounds over blown add weights 5gm at a time till the bass is noticed only when it absent. Then u will get a tuning that is good for music. If you want to use the sub for HT you do the same with a few properly recorded soundtracks.
what i have found is that there are many more well recorded albums than there are well recorded DVDs. This might be becuase most DVDs are played using traditional 5.1 speaker systems where the bass is usually a "sub" using 2 x 6" woofers and the sts are 3" fullranges or 4" 2ways. Something simialr to the Bose Acoustimass systems.
Many years ago when I was a recording studio in NYC i noticed the recording engineer who was also an audiophile (he owned severly modifed DQ10s powered by Bryston) was mixing the master with a pronouced hump in the 60-80Hz region and a faat drop of after 35Hz. So I asked him why. He took me to a room where there sat 3 stereo recievers from cos like Sherwood, Sony, and Technics powering 3 pairs of speakers from cos like Polk (5B), JBL (L82), and Bose (301) all on one shelf.
Then he said this is the typical stereo a listener of this music will use.
At a later time the same engineer mastered some tapes using B&W 801 in a well engineered room. The music was of a different genre; the expected audience was a well heeled audiophile.
2 very different mixes made by the same engineer. |
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| ssSai |
I respect tcpip's view. Yes, for a fresher, it is best to stop breaking your head after a certian point and put to practice the knowledge you think you have aquired. The result will give you a feed back loop and the cycle goes on and on.
My final BSL Choices (my order of preference):
1> DPL12 with a 15" PR [Adire Audio].
2> Peerless XLS 12" with the XLS PR .
3> Shiva Mark IV (2#) (my least preferred option).
I will be thinking about the amplifier only when the drivers I get are into the enclosure I am supposed to design and make.
I mailed the AdireAudio Sales....they tell that the dealer in germany must have all of their products.
Hence I will get the cheapest option as per the german prices.
[SIZE=3]Does anybody have the spec sheet of the DPL12 and the PR15. The adire website has not updated its links to these products. I only have what most of the sites display (Only some TS params).[SIZE=3] |
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| ssSai |
Can anyone suggest me a good looking (cosmetically) 15" Passive Radiator.
The 15" PR from Adire Audio seems rather tame. I really will not be successful in flaunting it on the enclosure.
My plan is to use the 12" subwoofer driver in downfiring alignment and have the Passive Radiator in the front baffle of the enclosure.
Is that fine??
Checked out d-s-t.com, the scan speak PR looks awesome, but is a 12 incher.
15 incher PR suggestions please................ |
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| navin |
very few PRs can be used down firing.
Legacy and VMPS are 2 that I think used this principle.
usually cone sag will occur for most PRs so I'd not recomend it.
if you dont want to show it of how about rear firing? |
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| ssSai |
Navin,
What I meant was different.
Example:
I will use, say the DPL12 in down firing alignment and use the PR on the front baffle.
What I understand from you is that a PR should not be down firing, else it will sag. Right?? |
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| navin |
| so will many 12" woofers. please check with the manufactuer or others before you do this. |
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| gjo |
Sai
You should get specs on these drivers through the diyspeaker.org site-they have a section called the LSDG, which you need to read-it has a lot of info that you will find useful. I dont have the link offhand, but if you cant find it email me, I'll get the url.
Peerless drivers, unlike many others are used by Bamberg and can be used as far as I know in downfiring alignments. My Lambda drivers, OTOH, are not designed for downfiring. Shivas are. I dont know about the Tempest. I use my ACI DV-12 in a downfiring enclosure.
Ultimately it doesnt really matter to much, IMHO.. You need have the driver and the PR facing the room, or if you decide to use two PRs then there should be a gap betwen the adjoining wall and the enclosure-you dont want it too close to the wall..PRs are Navin said are not designed for downfiring. I have the driver and the PR mounted to two adjoining sides. My Lambda 15 inch PR looks impressive, but the sound is what ultimately matters, and it sounds really good!
George |
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| ssSai |
I got a reply from the Adire Tech Support. The Shivas and DPL12s are designed for downfiring apps.
Infact, they pointed out that their pre-designed cabinets have both the drivers in the downfiring mode.
Hence there should be no prob in me using a shiva, XLS or the DPL12 in the down firing mode.
SO GUYS ANY NAMES FOR THE PLEASING PR. |
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| gjo |
Sigfried Linkwitz-linkwitzlabs.com uses Peerless drivers in a downfiring dipole enclosure that you may want to check.
Sai I really dont think the appearance of the PR is a big deal-the performance is! I have ordered a couple of PRs from Stryke Audio-www.stryke.com-check their site and their forum, there is alot of useful info.
George |
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| navin |
| quote: | Originally posted by gjo
Peerless drivers, unlike many others are used by Bamberg and can be used as far as I know in downfiring alignments. ..I use my ACI DV-12 in a downfiring enclosure. |
george, how many subs do you have? lambda, DV12, what else?
i have used dv12's in down and rear firing. in my room the rear firing sounded better. why dont ask. i dont take many measurements. i like something i stick with it. i dont i change. simple.
as best i know the xls can be down fired.
when i bought my 4 dv12s (actually we shipped 6 of them from aci to india) i had emailed mike and he told me something to the effect "the dv12 can be downfired but he does not have long term tests to confirm how long it's suspension will last in this position". |
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| gjo |
Navin
On a regular completed daily listening basis-one Lambda and one DV 12 sub. I have a Lambda driver waiting to be completed, maybe sometime in the next 6 months. When I started my first project(DV 12), about 5 years ago a friend ( a guy whom I consider my guru) built the ACI Titan, using a 10 inch downfiring driver, at about the same time as me..That's the sum total of my experience..
George |
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| navin |
do you have the lambda running one channel and the DV12 the other or are both run mono?
the reason i got the dv12 is that it is quite flexible. i was hoping some day to build a servo sub and was hoping to use the second voice coil to provide the feedback instead of an accelerormeter.
anyway turns out that was more diffcult to do in practice so i then shorted the second voice coil to change the tuning of the sub.
turns out that the 10% change in F3 was not audible (measureable yes but not audible). |
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| gjo |
I use both the subs in mono, since my listening rooms aren't big enough to accomodate two boxes. One (currently the ACI) is mated to a two way using Raven R1 tweeters and Focal 5inch mids in an MTM box (the Aria R design by Joe D'Appolito), details of which can be seen on the Zalytron site, under "kits").
The other is the Lambda PR alignment which is mated to a two way using Scanspeak mids and tweeters (18W 8545) and D9300 ferrofluid silk domes. The second system has better bass extension, whereas the Raven tweeters on the first are outstanding, especially listening to female vocals. I rotate both systems for my use.
I plan to consider using my newest Lamda driver with my HT setup. I have a couple of PRs on order from the US, coming by sea mail! I have to decide what to do with them once they come here..
As I have said in the past, you're more than welcome if you happen to be in my vicinity to come by for an audition, and enjoy some asli single malt along with some good music! A CD that I picked up on this past visit to the US is Michael Crawford in Concert-great stuff. This is the guy who signs the male vocals in Phantom of the Opera. |
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| navin |
u have 2 listening rooms! how did you get away with this.
i think the 8545+raven combo might be the best of both worlds. it would have require steep XO slopes.
besides the focal polyglass woofers might be too forward for the 9300.
my subs are 4 x DV12. 2 per box. sealed 130 liters. sats are 8546-9900 MTM.
this system is lying unused as it was too big to carry from my mom's apt where i lived when i was single. pics have been posted in the past so i wont waste bandwidth.
one day i hope to rework the MTM to a MT push push. the 4 woofers are best used a selaed box as any other box is way too big for the tiny apts we have in mumbai. |
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| gjo |
Hi Navin
I had a CD with a lot of backed upinfo on audio stuff which I seem to have misplaced. If you have it, could you please email me offlist the T/S parameters of the ACI DV 12 drivers(at gjo@dtsam.com)?
Many thanks!
George |
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| rs1026 |
Hi guys,
Any Idea where i can get good drivers in Bangalore?
Vivek :How about the Bolton woofers that you have bought?How is the performance .Also some inputs about where I can buy good woofers+tweeters. I plan to build a amp using stk 4192.
Suggestions are welcome!
Thanks in advance . |
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| navin |
| corrson if you have the budget. |
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| Vivek |
You can try Vifa drivers from corrson (corrson.com) but they are terribly expensive. I am using a pair of Bolton 8 inch sub drivers for my sub project. They are pretty good.
By the way, my Vifa MTM project is almost ready. I am doing some listening tests. Some internal lining with polyfibre and bracing need to be done.
Vivek |
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| arasuk |
Hi Rs,
let me know ,if i can help u in drivers, shortly i am going to post about our drivers in trading section. as it is out of scope in this discussion.
till then for drivers neccary mail me at arasukumar@yahoo.com
Thanks
bye
arasu |
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| rs1026 |
Vifa Drivers look good but there are a bit expensive. The drivers may be good but i am not sure if stk 4192 is worth this effort.
I will test the amp with some local woofers I have. I plan to use the amp to drive a sub woofer.If the amp works fine with local woofers then I plan to build a active filter using lm833. Finally if this also goes well then as a last step I will buy vifa drivers.
What do you guys think?Is the 4192 based amp worth all this effort??
Navin and Vivek please cooment. |
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| Vivek |
I used the STK 4171 amp kit sometime back. It sounded very good. The 4192 is probably good too. But don't use a 4 ohm speaker. My STK went up in smoke when I hooked it to the two Bolton (8 ohm) sub drivers in parallel.
Vivek |
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