| Gerontius |
Hi,
Why can't audiophiles say that a power opamp sounds good because it is a well designed IC? Why must it be tarted up with esoteric resistors and caps, inverting configurations, and separate power humpties before people will say they sound good? The reason that our power opamp audio amplifiers sound good is because of years of science and engineering, and by good design and implementation by teams of engineers National, TI, and others. We're all just craftsmen putting them in various boxes. The sound was there already.
There are some really good and creative craftsmen that have built these amps judging from personal web pages and the gallery at Nuuk's site. Why can't you just be proud of that aspect of your work and leave it there?
You could bang on one of these things (gently) with a hammer directly on the case of the amp chip, and not even see a scope trace budge. How could oak v. maple possibly make a difference?
Why can't audiophiles be honest and just say that wood cases, machined metal parts, and ....tubes look cool and are fun to show their friends. Why do they always have to invoke some sort of miraculous sonic benefit?
You can't hear a difference between a wood and maple case or an amp suspended by a single madagascarian silk fiber in a vacuum. You just can't. 2 inches of hookup wire in a case or 2 feet of hookup wire in a power umbililical can't, and do not, have a "sonic signature". They just don't.
There was a previous thread where some people new to the hobby were wondering about whether or not things like different types of wood in cases would make a difference. My advice is to get a basic electronics book like "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill. If you run across something in the audiophile world that's not mentioned in there, it almost certainly B.S. Audio electronics are no different than any other type of electronics.
The problem of power amplification for the home is sussed. You can get a chip and with a PS and a few resistors and caps, you can have as good of a sound from your amp up to 100W as anybody. Yes, even your friend with the Krell, and especially your friend with the SET amp
G |
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| millwood |
it is a very interesting and profound question.
I enjoy electronics because I like the challenges in the designing, building and debugging processes. After the amp is fully debugged and is working flawless, I usually start to disassemble it. There is no need for me to have more amps than I need and economically it is more expensive for me to build one than to buy one off the shelf.
I for one don't believe in the resistor sound, or insulation pad sound, etc. and it is silly in my book to think one can hear a pre-amp power supply being "positively grey and dynamically challenged", or that 30mm feedback length makes a sonic difference, or metal feet sound better than rubber feet, etc., unless they are proven to do so.
A lot of the times, it is human psychi (?) that is hearing all the differences. Those amps are our babies, and some of us expected to hear differences for all the time, money, sweat and love, and they got fooled by their minds.
Or they looked forward to being fooled by their minds. I have no problem with people believing that they hear the difference, but to argue for it on psudo science is another story. |
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| dhaen |
Hi,
While I belong in the land of cynics rather than the land of believers, please let me state my case:
I am a professonal electronics engineers specialising in broadcast audio and video. As such I have heard a lot.
I lived with the same HIfi...mid range, just satisfying stuff for 12 years.
After my kids grew up, I decided to change it. The replacement sounded terrible. So I tried a few more. All sounded different, even the expensive stuff. This was an immence culture shock to someone who thought that "any idiot could design a reasonable amp".
After a lot of experimentation, I found my way back to valves (tubes).
It's a vast field out there, but there are visible markers.
Don't imagine you can solve it all by logic and analysis. If you do, then one day you'll be caught out like I was.....
Cheers, |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Gerontius
Why can't audiophiles be honest and just say that wood cases, machined metal parts, and ....tubes look cool and are fun to show their friends. Why do they always have to invoke some sort of miraculous sonic benefit?
You can't hear a difference between a wood and maple case or an amp suspended by a single madagascarian silk fiber in a vacuum. You just can't. 2 inches of hookup wire in a case or 2 feet of hookup wire in a power umbililical can't, and do not, have a "sonic signature". They just don't.
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And what makes you so certain about it? |
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| jwb |
I think people just take part of their experience and apply it in places where it may not help. It's harmless, no reason to get worked up over it.
Take microphonics, for example. SMD ceramic chip capacitors are highly microphonic. So if one gets used to thinking of ones components as microphonic, one might apply that habit to a project where it makes no sense. But again, it doesn't hurt. |
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| JoeBob |
The Overture series of ICs are really well made, anyone that compared them to older amp chips will tell you that, they're much better.
But this is a DIY forum, I guess many people want to atribute the good sound to their efforts and not to whomever designed the IC.
Although, the inverted topology does sound better, but there have been MANY threads discussing that, I reccomend you read through them. |
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| GUILHERME |
If someone thinks that mounting his amp on a 1000 year-old rare Japanese tree wood makes it sound better and is willing to pay $10000 for it, let him. Its good for the economy (the seller's at least). Whatever makes people happy I say.
You're taking things too seriously, really. I just read this stuff, discard what I know from education is BS and try to learn from those who actualy know what they're doing. But I must tell ya, many times the best (fun) reading comes from the BS pile ;)
Hey, maybe someone should start a thread about the top100 audio-BS. Here let me start:
Numero Uno: bi-wiring
Take care,
Guilherme. |
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| JOE DIRT® |
| I would save that wood to smoke some brisket or endui sausage...Heck maybe some ribs too |
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| ronc |
Numero dos: 3K$ US, speaker cables.
ron |
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| seangoesbonk |
| I changed all the capacitors in my microwave to Black Gates, and now all my food tastes WAY better!!! Hooray! |
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| Beggar |
| quote: | Originally posted by seangoesbonk
I changed all the capacitors in my microwave to Black Gates, and now all my food tastes WAY better!!! Hooray! |
Lol :) nice one dude,
Yeah i think that everyone is different, how people percive minor changes to an amp etc are going to vary from person to person, and to be quite frank let them!
Personally i am really happy that i cant tell the difference between tiny changes in amps, means im less fussy and dont worry about things too much, but really this is a case of live and let live :)
Well thats my thoughts on the topic :nod: |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by seangoesbonk
I changed all the capacitors in my microwave to Black Gates, and now all my food tastes WAY better!!! Hooray! |
and I heard that those BG caps make hotdogs taste like deep sea shrimps. |
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| Lisandro_P |
Personally, i care for looks almost as much as the sound. In fact, i've always had a pretty good idea on how i want something to look like long before touching a solder gun, and spend quite a lot of time on paper to know exactly how to arrange things how i like. For example, right now i'm in the final stages of a DoZ for headphones, which is a small steel box with a cooper front. I had to do a LOT of thinkering to fit two boards, a sink, a transformer and all the connectors in there, and i'm not even done yet.
Still, i always try to use quality parts, partially for the sonics (you won't find tantalum caps in an amp of mine ;) ), but mainly because they're simply of better quality - this translates into longer life. OTOH, i also use a lot of recycled parts... this DoZ uses some poly caps and connectors from broken computer PSUs, and that's just the amp board itself. |
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| dkemppai |
| quote: | Originally posted by Gerontius
How could oak v. maple possibly make a difference?
You can't hear a difference between a wood and maple case or an amp suspended by a single madagascarian silk fiber in a vacuum.
2 inches of hookup wire in a case or 2 feet of hookup wire in a power umbililical can't, and do not, have a "sonic signature". They just don't.
My advice is to get a basic electronics book like "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill.
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Oak and maple have different mechanical properties, if excited by an impulse waveform, would they vibrate differently? If so, would they damp differently? Would they sound be different? Is it possible that the sound in a room could cause the case of the amplifier to vibrate? If so, would this blend in a good or bad way with the sound of the speakers?
Silk suspended amp... ...could sounds in the music excite the silk string, causing vibration? Thus exciting other sounds?
I have seen where the length of a wire changing by more than a few inches caused a device to operate or not. Could inductance by the added length of wire, or resistance change the circuit enough to cause instability? Would poor PSRR combined with wire layout cause feedback? Could this feedback be damped, where it would only cause a damped oscillation, adding the spectrical content with only high slew rate signals and not pure tones. Would this sound differently, depending on the music?
Horowitz and Hill page 712 address care about cables for a digital system. (If a computer cares about crosstalk in a cable, I would think an analog amplifer would care even more!)
I have seen circuit boards, with different layouts operate differently, even when they contained the exact same circuit.
Why is this, after all the IC's were identical, and the designers made them to be the best they could be!The "The Art of Electronics" is just that, and Art. Not an exact science. As much design goes into a good board layout, and good cabinet design, as does a good circuit design.
The point is, it's good to be skeptical, but it's also good to keep an open mind. If it sounds like B.S., take it with a grain of salt, but don't dismiss the idea completely. Ask yourself some quesitons. How?, Why?, What if? You may be surprised.
Food for thought!
-Dan
P.S. Anyone every build the same speaker cabined out of solid wood, vs particle board and compared the sound? |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by dkemppai
If so, would this blend in a good or bad way with the sound of the speakers? |
The answer is absolutely "yes", unqualified.
But, can you hear the difference? |
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| analog_sa |
| Interesting, i don't insist preaching to the deaf, but why are they so insistent in making us appear deaf too? |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by analog_sa
Interesting, i don't insist preaching to the deaf, but why are they so insistent in making us appear deaf too? |
How is he making anyone appear deaf? He simply asked if it was audible. A reasonable question given that not all that we might perceive is due to actual audible stimulus.
By the way, why are you insisting that others are deaf?
se |
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| analog_sa |
| quote: | | By the way, why are you insisting that others are deaf? |
Am i? I know you are not, but you won't be caught dead sharing a subjective experience, right? As it doesn't tally well with the theory :) |
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| faustian bargin |
| subjective experiences tally perfectly well with psychological theory. i think that's the point. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by analog_sa
Am i? |
...i don't insist preaching to the deaf...
Who are the deaf referred to here?
| quote: | | I know you are not, but you won't be caught dead sharing a subjective experience, right? As it doesn't tally well with the theory :) |
I tend not to share subjective experience primarily because I don't take the flyspeck approach to listening that most seem to do so I can't relate my experience in such terms. I listen intuitively and ultimately can only say what it is that I like or don't like.
Also, my particular subjective tastes and preferences aren't the same as everyone else's (nor is anyone else's the same as everyone else's) so I don't see a whole lot of value to it and prefer to simply try things for myself and encourage others to try things for themselves.
And no, my particular tastes and preferences don't have any particular correlation with objective techincal specs and measurements.
se |
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| Pedja |
| quote: | Originally posted by Gerontius
The reason that our power opamp audio amplifiers sound good is because of years of science and engineering, and by good design and implementation by teams of engineers National, TI, and others.
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Yup, thanks to all of them. However, you’ll hardly find anything there you can call “their own design” – implemented circuits are quite known. I personally wait for that moment when they discover CFB power amp. I will probably forget discrete amps then.
| quote: | Originally posted by Gerontius
We're all just craftsmen putting them in various boxes.
|
Call it whatever you want to. But, what the difference does it make?
| quote: | Originally posted by Gerontius
2 inches of hookup wire in a case or 2 feet of hookup wire in a power umbililical can't, and do not, have a "sonic signature". They just don't.
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I thought the same (because it was “logical” to me) unless I replaced mentioned 2 inches of wire in my passive pre. :devilr:
Pedja |
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| analog_sa |
| quote: | | And no, my particular tastes and preferences don't have any particular correlation with objective techincal specs and measurements |
I know that. Nor do mine, but a lot of people have a problem with that. I attribute it to aural-deficiency induced bitterness :) And god help if they've passed a few engineering (and it appears also financial :):):)) courses.
My hearing is not sensational; i hardly hear above 15kHz and certainly am not that perceptive to long term effects like cable burn-in. Do i accuse anyone with better hearing/perception in being deluded or high on placebo pills?
peter |
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| millwood |
I guess the point in the whole discussion is that we shall take those golden-ear type claims with a huge grain of salt.
After all, none of them has had the guts to put their claims to an objective test and win $10K of easy money in the process.
But they have no problem insisting on their super-human hearings and their equally super-sounding amps, :)
No wonder it has been pretty hard selling those amps to san people. |
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| SY |
| Guys, have some sympathy for me. I've got a crummy 28.8 dialup and a screaming 2 year old. I don't need to spend my time moving yet more of your posts to Texas. |
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| Pedja |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
After all, none of them has had the guts to put their claims to an objective test and win $10K of easy money in the process. |
There is not an “objective” test.
Pedja |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
After all, none of them has had the guts to put their claims to an objective test and win $10K of easy money in the process.
But they have no problem insisting on their super-human hearings and their equally super-sounding amps, :)
No wonder it has been pretty hard selling those amps to san people. |
Here's a good read for you. I don't think you've seen this thread and I suspect you might like it;)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...ng&pagenumber=1 |
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| Peter Daniel |
Now, here's something to make more so called "golden ear" doubts;)
As some of you know already, I've been replacing Riken resistors in my amps, because Caddocks appeared to sound better. Now if there was no difference between resistors, do you think I would go through all the trouble to replace them in 20 amps of our initial run? We gave the job to some technician who supposedly new good soldering practices. I was just about to send one amp to Netherlands, but decided to listen to it one more time before shipment. The amp sounded not as I remembered it, the sound was sort of disjoined, artificial and annoying. I opened the amp and this is what I saw (have a look at Caddock feedback resistor) |
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| Peter Daniel |
Now, I was always trying to mount feedback resistor very close to the IC pins, mostly because I was told that short feedback loop was important in this amp and also it looks more elegant this way.
So this was very good opportunity to check the imprtance of the length of feedback loop. I asked my wife to listen more to the amp and so did I, also my son and 6 year old daughter;) After a while, I changed the mounting of a resistor, this time using indeed good soldering practices and had another listening session. I was not hesitant about it, the amp sounded the way I know the sound of this amp and there was no doubt it was better. Both my wife and my son confirmed it, the daughter wasn't sure;)
On the right binding post you can see 3 pieces of 2" long solid core wire. Once I used silver solid copper wire, as I thought it may sound better. It didn't, the sound was too light, withought enough of bottom end extention and substance. Top end was probably better, but overall balance was lacking.
As this thread is about craftsmanship, I believe those pics make a nice addition.;) You probably have to ask Fred, to post some engineering illustrations. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Peter D,
When looking at the pics I still some no-nos from my book of experience.
I hope you don't mind for pointing you to possible improvements, operative word being "possible".
In both pics I notice some sharp bents on lead out wires. Not good practice since it tends to break copper lattices.
Try gently curved bents, it keeps the electrons on track.;)
Also, I notice you use the stand-off on the left as a ground, is this a non-magnetic item? If not try to source a copper based one such as brass.
Thirdly, you are going to remove the plastic from the BG caps one of these days, aren't you?
Oh, yes..most silverplated copper wire sounds pretty thin IME.
You could give pure 4N silver a try, after all you won't need much of it anyway. It will subjectively shorten the signal path even more.
Cheers,;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
Actually it was silver solid core wire (not copper, I made mistake while typing). I didn't like it. Maybe purity wasn't good enough, it seemed harder to bend than the wire used to terminate Jensen caps for instance.
I can't take off the jackets off those BG, because they will be loose in those 7/8" holes. I don't bother with that as I think that those white mounts do more tho the sound than taking off the jackets. I did take 'em off on 4.7 coupling caps and notice more smoothness, but nothing really to write home about. I prefer not to use coupling caps at all in my own amps.
The standoffs are brass, as I had to solder the copper wires to them.
I will still continue to use sharp bends on my copper wires. I have enough trouble with making those p2p connections already;) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Maybe purity wasn't good enough, it seemed harder to bend than the wire used to terminate Jensen caps for instance |
Pure silver wire, as gold, is much softer than copper at equal gauge...
| quote: | | I can't take off the jackets off those BG, because they will be loose in those 7/8" holes. I don't bother with that as I think that those white mounts do more tho the sound than taking off the jackets. |
Not that hard to solve on a prototype anyway...the white block is something similar to Delrin I suppose?
| quote: | | I will still continue to use sharp bends on my copper wires. I have enough trouble with making those p2p connections already |
I can well imagine...just think of it as an idea for a next prototype, if it's feasable at all.
In the mean time I'll keep on catching all the derailed electrons for you...:clown:
Cheers,;) |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Pure silver wire, as gold, is much softer than copper at equal gauge... |
That depends. Silver can indeed be harder than copper depending on the working an annealing done. Drawing the wire through the dies will work harden it and if it's not annealed afterward, you can end up with silver that's harder than copper which has been annealed.
se |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
It may rain tomorrow too...that depends.
Silverwire for audio use should always be annealled and, BTW, you can not arrive at 4N or higher purity of Ag or Au if you don't anneal it.
Anything more you think you know?
Cheers,;) |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
"By the way, why are you insisting that others are deaf?"
You mean the same people accusing those reporting hearing differences of; self delusion, mass hypnosis, elitism, and even outright fraud? Let me add the clarification then of "deaf to changes in sound in sound quality." This seems to me the same description that person uses when saying "I can't hear the difference" when describing their own null results. Who is insulting who? If they can't here the difference, why are they on such a holy crusade to tell others they can't. Is it perhaps because they are not satisfied with their system and knowledge and resent the hell out of the fact that someone else is. There is so much straightforward physics behind most of this stuff that it is not funny. Many of this details have been described in other non audio scientific and engineering endeavors that it is strange that audio gets single out for the critics from the unqualified. There is plenty of BS in audio and plenty of stuff that works. The worth while discoveries were no made by people sitting around and saying "Its too hard to understand and not worth the effort to try...." A lot of tweak products have been developed by people from other engineering disciplines than audio. Presenting measurements always invokes the "it's to small to make any difference" response from the self described authorities. I don't want these people to hear a difference or learn anything. Their intellectual cowardice and laziness guarantees they never will. I don't won't to hear the it is not worth the money BS, when we are trying to talk about building stuff from scratch. would your time be better spent going to McDonald's for a gourmet meal ( it all taste the same and its cheaper). I want these people to spend as much money as they can on systems that they think are no better than mass market cheap electronics. If this stuff doesn't matter, I just don't understand the absolute zeal that have for coming to tell me what I can't hear and why I can't hear it. Is there some other subject that you people know nothing about that you can go argue about? I will bet there are DOZENS! Go email NASA and tell them how to fix the Space Shuttle. You will save us all tax dollars and maybe someone's life. They aren't up to the task and you will be contributing to something that matters. World hunger and peace in the middle East could sure use your expert input. I could really use you guys to fix the economy as it affecting me personally in very non-subjective ways. Let us know how you make out. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way!
America and the world need you. Hurry,
Fred |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
"You probably have to ask Fred, to post some engineering illustrations"
Someone might even ask why you are using the type of Caddocks that are no where near the good Caddocks.......
I will leave it to you to research as you desire.
BTW I don't know what solder you use but lead free silver solder joints don't look as nice as regular solder. They but sound better. There are ways to do composite solder joints for sonics and looks and good wetting. More R and D. as I know you don't want to discuss proprietary stuff on the forum. |
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| jwb |
I actually got flamed once over at Slashdot, by a regular on this forum whose name I will not mention, because I recommended the use of lead-free solder. I advised using it for its superior metallurgical properties and as a matter of concern for the environment.
People can be contrary regarding practically anything. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | BTW I don't know what solder you use but lead free silver solder joints don't look as nice as regular solder. |
Looks affect sales, not sound.
Leadless solder has always sounded better to my ears and you can make it look good too.
Cheers,;) |
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| SY |
| The key to bliss is bismuth. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | The key to bliss is bismuth. |
100% Yes....Especially for heavy metal fans.
Cheers,;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann
"You probably have to ask Fred, to post some engineering illustrations"
Someone might even ask why you are using the type of Caddocks that are no where near the good Caddocks.......
I will leave it to you to research as you desire.
BTW I don't know what solder you use but lead free silver solder joints don't look as nice as regular solder. They but sound better. There are ways to do composite solder joints for sonics and looks and good wetting. More R and D. as I know you don't want to discuss proprietary stuff on the forum. |
First answer is simple, this is the only type my supplier stocks. I tried it almost by accident, ot works fine, isn't too expensive, so I don't feel like looking for anything better. I tried $27 a pc. Vishay S102 in this location and it was no match. I actually did my R&D here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...8874#post18874. One reason I didn't even consider TF020 is too big lead spacing and overall size.
Having such nice experience withthose Caddocks in a feedback loop, I thought they will be also great as I/V resistors in TDA1543 circuit. But, no, the Rikens are much better here, more neutral and transparent. I still didn't find a single location where Vishays S102 sound good. To me, they are too soft and laid back. Actually I'm using them in swithing volume control in my monoblocks and they seem fine there. It may be true that they are most neutral, but I prefer more "spice" to my music.
Second, I'm using Cardas solder. I had a hard choice between few other brands, but somebody suggested: if you are using Cardas binding posts and Cardas wire, why not go with Cardas solder? You see?;)
I also tried silver solder and didn't like it.
BTW, I like your other post much better;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Elkaid
hehhehehe :)
what's this ? ;) |
A good excuse;) |
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| Rarkov |
Hi,
Please read this to understand about acoustic feedback.
Russ Andrews - Firm Foundations
I cannot hear fine differences (although I think that is partially down to a lack of huge numbers of comparisons). However I'm not saying it doesn't happen - in fact I'm sure it does. I'm not sure you could even measure such differences. I would go as far as saying that I'm GLAD I can't hear it - because I spend less time perfecting everything - before deciding it's a dead loss and starting again!
Anyway, my excuse for trying to make nice looking equipment is presentability & good engineering. I think most CD recordings nowadays are fairly mono & 2D anyway.
Just my 2p worth.
Gaz |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
First answer is simple, this is the only type my supplier stocks. I tried it almost by accident, ot works fine, isn't too expensive, so I don't feel like looking for anything better. I tried $27 a pc. Vishay S102 in this location and it was no match. I actually did my R&D here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...8874#post18874. One reason I didn't even consider TF020 is too big lead spacing and overall size.
Having such nice experience withthose Caddocks in a feedback loop, I thought they will be also great as I/V resistors in TDA1543 circuit. But, no, the Rikens are much better here, more neutral and transparent. I still didn't find a single location where Vishays S102 sound good. To me, they are too soft and laid back. Actually I'm using them in swithing volume control in my monoblocks and they seem fine there. It may be true that they are most neutral, but I prefer more "spice" to my music.
Second, I'm using Cardas solder. I had a hard choice between few other brands, but somebody suggested: if you are using Cardas binding posts and Cardas wire, why not go with Cardas solder? You see?;)
I also tried silver solder and didn't like it.
BTW, I like your other post much better;) |
You followed that idiots advice? I do very seriuosly recommend trying the Wonder wire from M Percy though. It is a very good a neutral wire used by Counrtpoint and Steve McCormak and has the mechanical properties and solderability you need.
Wonder Wire: A proprietary design high performance 19ga solid core, silver clad high purity copper with a unique crystal structure, uninsulated
www.percyaudio.com
Warning extreme hyperbola alert but WTH:
http://members.aol.com/trtwonder/ |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Wonder Wire: A proprietary design high performance 19ga solid core, silver clad high purity copper with a unique crystal structure, uninsulated |
That may well be true but they don't seem to tell us much about any of their products.
THE WONDERPEOPLE
Cheers,;) |
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| jh6you |
:drink:
Oh... I played golf today with a man who works about industrial vibration. He is a PHD. He said if something is inside water, its natual resonance frequency is lowered because the water acts as added mass, i.e. according to (k/m)^0.5, where k is stiffness and m is mass.
Hello... am I in the right place?
:drunk: |
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| grataku |
Yep!
INFINICAP: where's the patent?
there are a handfull of ways to pull a thin metal film, to metallize polyprop. and most definitely one way to make polypropylene in high yield in a chemical reactor.
Add to that only a handful of capacitor winding machines types.
I am not going to say who but I found a place where they claim to be using a process I used at work a few times to produce certain components and I saw NO sign of that process being used on their pictured final product.
This is not politics it's science and technology. Things can be proven right or wrong. Most of them today, some of them in the near future. I don't understand why debating this simple thruth. |
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| dkemppai |
| quote: | Originally posted by millwood
The answer is absolutely "yes", unqualified.
But, can you hear the difference? |
Sort of my underlying point... |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
That may well be true but they don't seem to tell us much about any of their products.
THE WONDERPEOPLE
Cheers,;) |
could it be that there IS nothing to tell and those guys are being honest? |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | could it be that there IS nothing to tell and those guys are being honest? |
Meaning what exactly?
Or are they just bringing money to the bank?
Cheers banker...???:rolleyes: |
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| SY |
| If someone wants to buy something, there's always someone around to sell it to them. Even relabeled conformal coating. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | If someone wants to buy something, there's always someone around to sell it to them. |
Conversely?
Just don't even think of being smart please.:att'n: |
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| millwood |
| quote: | Originally posted by grataku
there are a handfull of ways to pull a thin metal film, |
what about allowing metal vapor to deposite on a substrate?
I looked at an Canadian optical company a few years back and they deposite metal coatings on glass that way, and I am pretty sure fabs do the same thing. |
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| SY |
| The process you use depends on the metal and the substrate. Chemical vapor deposition (CVD), sputtering, and vacuum metallization are the principal methods. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
It's getting better by the minute...
| quote: | | what about allowing metal vapor to deposite on a substrate? |
And?
Cheers,;) |
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| jh6you |
My post(s) is(are) eraised. What was wrong?
Your explanation would much appreciate.
:yinyang: |
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| SY |
| jh: Sorry, I moved some of them off to a new thread "The Quest," since they (and quite a few others!) were off topic. I neglected to leave an explanatory note, which you can chalk up as a growing pain for me as the rawest moderator. |
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| jh6you |
I have made the erased post, honestly after having reading Post#1 and few others. This time I have re-read the thread from the beginning to the end for a self evaluation of what I have done wrong.
It seems that mine has been deemed as cynical view of Post#29. Hey, Peter Daniel, I feel very sorry for it, but I have not thought of the cynicism on a person at all. It has happened just by coincidence. I hope you will understand that.
Anyhow, my meaning in the erased post has been on topic so that I keep unhappy feeling about the ignorant cut-off, although I fully understand SY's position.
All the best.
:yinyang: |
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| SY |
Do you mean "erased" or "moved"? If erased, it was probably in error, for which I apologize. If you mean just moved elsewhere, that sort of thing is always a judgement call, especially when it concerns both on and off topic material.
Also, by moving stuff, we are NOT saying that you've done anything wrong, we're just trying to reduce the clutter for other people trying to follow the on-topic part of the thread. |
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| jh6you |
SY
I mean "exiled" from the original thread. What is the definition of "erased" or "removed" is not an issue. In this thread, some posters claim that different components cause different sounds. Then, the topic of the thread should be "different components cause different sound?" For example, if I claim an unkind opposite comment, saying "no, not exactly so," then am I talking about off-topic?
Maybe, your reason should have been that I have made the post in a primitive way. Then, I could understand the case better. Sorry for the noise. No more talking about this matter, I will do.
All the best.
:yinyang: |
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| Peter Daniel |
| I didn't see a post and I don't know what you were talking there about. Why not make another one again? I'm always open for crititque. |
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| john curl |
| Folks, I have not been here for long, and I don't know everything that has been discussed. Still, just because a certain brand of resistor works in one location, does not mean that it works everywhere, sonically. I don't know why, but this understanding works for me. I would back off on any application that you don't know, and have not tried personally. It just wastes time to come to a conclusion in advance. I hope this helps. |
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| Gerontius |
Folks, I have not been here for long, and I don't know everything that has been discussed. Still, just because a certain brand of resistor works in one location, does not mean that it works everywhere, sonically. I don't know why, but this understanding works for me. I would back off on any application that you don't know, and have not tried personally. It just wastes time to come to a conclusion in advance. I hope this helps.
| quote: | | Still, just because a certain brand of resistor works in one location, does not mean that it works everywhere, sonically. I don't know why, but this understanding works for me |
Hi. the point I was trying to make I started this discussion would be that every resistor works everywhere sonically. Unless it's really messed up, a resistor isn't going to add any audible character to the sound on it's own.
I would never want anyone to stop having fun building and listening to their creations. I like to use "nice" parts too where aesthetics and durabilitiy are an issue. I just think this mass delusion that is audio needs to be questioned every now and then.
I know that you can spend your money any way you want, but I wonder if you ever found a listening test that showed you that your $1,000 amp sounded indistinguishable from a cheap sony, would you feel cheated? Assuming that you bought the expensive amp mainly because of the sound that you perceived at the time |
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| pedroskova |
| quote: | Originally posted by Gerontius
Hi. the point I was trying to make I started this discussion would be that every resistor works everywhere sonically. Unless it's really messed up, a resistor isn't going to add any audible character to the sound on it's own. |
Have you built an inverted GC and compared these things? It's not very expensive and would give you some credibility...versus your blanket statements.
| quote: | | I just think this mass delusion that is audio needs to be questioned every now and then. |
...but every two weeks?
Personally, I'm wary of anyone who tosses around the term "delusion". They may just be suffering from the same symptoms.
| quote: | | I know that you can spend your money any way you want, but I wonder if you ever found a listening test that showed you that your $1,000 amp sounded indistinguishable from a cheap sony, would you feel cheated? Assuming that you bought the expensive amp mainly because of the sound that you perceived at the time |
Music isn't about listening tests and DIY isn't about buying expensive amps. |
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| pedroskova |
Oh, and welcome Mr. Curl.:cool:
I look forward to hearing your views on things around this place...I just hope that I don't have to go to the SS forum to read them. I have a hard enough time following GC's and tubes.;) |
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| ronc |
My suggestion is to just build one.Its cheap and easy, use lower cost components and an established design.Then after a proper burn in ( i suggest about 48 hrs.) do an A/B comparision to a known amp.If you cant hear a difference then stick with your regular amp.
My dad is in his 80s and is not an audio type and can hear the difference between a marantz 2230 a PP 6bq5 tube amp and the GC.He perfers the GC.
ron |
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| dorkus |
Gerontius, not meaning to be disrespectful, but if you are so sure that all this audiophile tweaking is hogwash, then why do you bother arguing? who are you trying to convince here? in all honesty, if you are going to insist on your assumptions, then you are really preaching in the wrong place.
| quote: |
I know that you can spend your money any way you want, but I wonder if you ever found a listening test that showed you that your $1,000 amp sounded indistinguishable from a cheap sony, would you feel cheated? Assuming that you bought the expensive amp mainly because of the sound that you perceived at the time
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i find this example ironic, as that's exactly what many people have done with the gainclone...
how about this. my girlfriend is not an audiophile. she plays the oboe, very well in fact (we met in orchestra at college). she has very little interest in my "geeky" hobbies, whether it be video games or audio. but, she knows and loves music, and while she never makes a point to sit in the "sweet spot" and intently listen to my stereo, she'll hear it while reading nearby or surfing the web on my computer. casual listening, really.
whenever i make a small "tweak" to my stereo, for instance applying damping material to a component, within 5 minutes of listening she'll make a comment. she'll describe the difference in words better than i could have even described it myself, and she'll know whether she likes it better or not. all this after listening to my system unchanged for weeks, and not being told a word about what i had done. she's not even around when i apply the tweak (my endless tinkering drives her nuts), so she really has absolutely ZERO idea anything has happened. all this from a person who is hardly an audiophile, and in fact doesn't give a damn about the gear.
i'm not saying everyone can hear these things (women have better hearing after all ;)), or that everyone even cares, but to summarily dismiss such phenomenon strikes me as narrowminded, to put it charitably.
i realize that i'm not adding very much to this discussion that hasn't already been said better by others, but there is something very bothersome to me about these debates. most bothersome to me personally is the lack of respect. in my culture, respect is one of the unequivocal cornerstones of all human interaction. we believe that experience breeds knowledge, and from knowledge comes wisdom. i think these are unarguable principles, regardless of culture. in these forums we are greatly priviledged to have the input from PhD engineers with a quarter century experience in the electronics field, enthusiasts who have spent immense time and expense building and listening with open minds and tireless devotion, even some of the most pre-eminent designers in the industry, men who MADE high-end audio what it is today. yet, people with far less background in the field, people who haven't even tried to wire up a circuit to test their ideas for themselves, come along and tell these same sages that they must be wrong. how does this work? i can understand the inquisitive mind trying to understand before believing, but often these nay-sayers have already made up their minds before even asking.
Gerontius, i am not trying to label you as one of these people, i am just making a grossly generalized example here. i am also not saying that people established in institution are unimpeachable authorities; there is always a place for earnest dissent and even a little revolution. but please, even if you disagree, i think a little respect would go a long way into putting the whole argument into perspective...
i apologize for the rant, i know it became rather off-topic. i just love this forum so and need to vent a little frustration once in a while. ;) |
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| SY |
dorkus: Many of those "pre-eminent" people have listened with open minds and have come to the opposite conclusion. Think of Stanley Lipshitz, John Vanderkooy, Ken Kantor, Dick Greiner, Doug Self... And on the pre-eminent hobbyist end, Norm Thagard and Jan Didden.
If you have a chance, you might look up the Clever Hans effect. I always think of that when the inevitable, "my wife even heard it and she doesn't care about stereo" comes trotting out.
I can't speak for Gerontius, but I (a self-described rationalist about audio) certainly don't dismiss claims out of hand- unless they seem to violate well-established knowledge about physics and electronics AND are presented with zero valid supporting evidence. And any truly open-minded person has to be willing to abandon his beliefs when evidence disproves them or consistently fails to support them. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Ah...a resistor is a resistor is a resistor, right?
Some people have a lot of their so called education standing in the way of progress it seems?
Sounds like a lot of preconditiong to me.
If someone doesn't discern a difference than that's fine by me...why they have to declare this to the world is beyond me entirely.
When they start a crusade against those people who are more perceptive is just mere jealousy IMO.
All in all it's a primitive reaction akin to ; I can't understand it so it can't be.
Pretty laughable if you ask me.
Has anyone asked themselves why it's the naysayers spouting tons of agressiveness and not vice-versa?
Time and time again they've been proven wrong but they just keep on resisting, don't they?
If only they did their homework iso playing armchair psuedo-scientist?
How is it our fault that their system/hearing/brain lacks the resolution to show-up the difference between components?
Passive or active just the same?
It's oh so easy to say I've been taught this or that at college so what you say can't be true iso getting up and cross-check what's being forwarded.
Belief is a lazy anchor, isn't it?;) |
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| SY |
Belief is indeed a lazy anchor. It gets in the way of gathering evidence.
| quote: | | why they have to declare this to the world is beyond me entirely. |
Because that's evidence, too. The only way that we know about a lot of stuff that doesn't work is that people have failed to find evidence when they do valid experiments and reported it. We also know from those experiments a whole lot of stuff that DOES work. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Gerontius
You can't hear a difference between a wood and maple case or an amp suspended by a single madagascarian silk fiber in a vacuum. You just can't. 2 inches of hookup wire in a case or 2 feet of hookup wire in a power umbililical can't, and do not, have a "sonic signature". They just don't.
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You have to be pretty brave to state this as a fact. And to me personally, it is bothersome and it shows lack of respect. Well said, Dorkus.
Now, why anybody who loves Audio and is quite sure of what he's doing, would need additional proof that what he's doing is correct? I don't see any sensible reason, unless one has doubts (or is totally ignorant). Why those doubts came into existance is quite another story;) |
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| JoeBob |
Just read through the last few pages of this thread I missed, and well quite honestly this ongoing debate on what effects and what doesn't effect sound quality is rather annoying, and I bet many members agree with me. It always starts with an innocent comment by someone saying that "using a different screw to atach your IC results in better sound" and then someone saying they don't believe in it and the argument starts.
I don't know if it changes the sound, if it does I can't notice it and I don't see how it could, but that doesn't mean it can't. The world isn't flat anymore, isn't it? But maybe an accumulation of all these things could produce a better sound that I could notice, who knows. So I do use premium chasis components (hardwood) and use the best connectors I can fine, hell I even use solid core copper wire (maybe it sounds better, I don't know, but it is easier to work with), even if it doesn't change sound quality, I stay within budget and it results in a better built project and it also looks nicer.
If you never tried it don't comment, if you have tried it and haven't heard a difference, then you've got a basis for argument (except when this happens everyone says that it's because whoever has bad hearing). If you're a PHD in physics and you know that there is no way it could happen... well a PHD doesn't mean you know everything.
I for one will keep an open mind, but I do not understand how it could change the sound by having the chasis built with a different wood, and as a human being I find it hard to accept what I don't understand and also what I don't hear. I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just saying I don't think it does, but my opinion is just as useless as anyone elses, and no one should think that they have an opinion any less useless than another.
Maybe a moderator should start a thread about respecting other peoples opinions (I know, I should talk. I just called them all worthless, but at least I kept them all on equal ground), a member could but a moderator starting it would have more impact.
One last thing, Dorkus, I fully agree with you on a few points, but more importantly, my girlfriend also sees my "tinkering" as extremely geeky. "What did you do today baby?"... "Well, I picked up some parts and toyed with SMPS power suplies."... Where could she get that idea??? |
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| SY |
JB, thanks for a thoughtful post. "Respect for others' opinions" is a thing to be greatly desired. And it has to go both ways: it's equally unacceptable when someone says, for example, "I can't hear any difference whatever when a CD is degaussed" to accuse him of being deaf, stupid, closed-minded, drunk, whatever.
I don't know about a separate thread, but certainly the mods should be setting an example. And I think we do, most of the time, anyway.
Peter, would it be more acceptable to you for someone to say. "It's unlikely that you can hear a difference between maple screws and nylon clips" rather than asserting that you simply can't? |
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| ronc |
Its not my belief that any one thing makes a huge difference in the performance of anything.
Look at a porshe, its many things that makes the total performance of the car, not just the engine alone or the suspension or any one factor but the total of the design and quality of the auto.
Same with the gainclone, its more than just a chip with caps and resistors its the total of the combined parts, the cab the suspension of the H/S the quality of the parts used ect ect.
I dont believe in the ultimate design of anything as there is always a better way of doing things that were not considered in an earlier design.Thats called progress.
ron |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
Peter, would it be more acceptable to you for someone to say. "It's unlikely that you can hear a difference between maple screws and nylon clips" rather than asserting that you simply can't? |
It would be perfectly acceptable to me and I don't mind at all someone expressing his opinion in that way. I don't know for sure, if different wood material makes a difference, but I don't reject that possibility, only because it might seem very unlikely. I also don't want to go into argument over it, because it is not that important. I made only a suggestion, and someone who finds the importance of that, might use it and someone who doesn't find it important will dismiss it. But it's quite rude to state openly that it does not make a difference and it's quite amusing to fight over it;) |
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| dorkus |
SY,
in many ways, i really do agree; in fact, if Stanley Lipshitz came on this forum and said, i've tried different resistors and did not hear a difference, furthermore i see no technical benefit to it, i would fully respect that opinion. just as i would respect his opinion, so i ask that others respect those of people on the other side of the coin. on a topic where there is no clear answer, mutual respect is always more constructive than confrontation. i think there is a problem when one side cannot accept that there really is no clear answer.
where i may disagree with you is in the "zero valid supporting evidence." what is "valid supporting evidence?" if you mean a spectral analysis or a THD measurement, then of course i beg to differ. i think it is naive and ultimately complacent to think that our currently level of technology and scientific knowledge is sufficient to quantify all possible phenomena relating to human perception. if you mean triple-blind tests or the like, i'm not completely convinced those sorts of tests are accurate. when it comes to the perception of sound, and more importantly music, there is so much going on at the subliminal to near-subliminal level that such tests rarely reveal much. yes i know, it sounds like the usual subjectivist cop-out, but i strongly feel the argument has some validity. you can also point out psychological effects, but if you try hard enough, you can use psychology to discount almost every aspect of human perception! and to be completely honest, i tend to feel a lot of work done in the "science" of psychology tends to be a crock, but that's just my personal opinion and has no relevance in this debate... so just scratch that last one out. :p
i honestly do believe that some people hear differences, and some people don't. it doesn't mean that the latter are "deaf," the former are "delusional," or any rubbish like that, it just means they hear things differently. everyone's hearing and perception is different, and no one can tell me what i'm hearing or not hearing. there simply is no way to tell what another person is perceiving, not at this moment at any rate (maybe when we get neural implants with sufficient resolution...). this makes me also very wary of those "studies" with blind listening test where only 50% of the subjects could distinguish some difference. well, maybe only 50% of the people could hear it. does that prove the difference doesn't exist, because it's pure 50/50 chance? i don't think so. we're not talking about a test where we can objectively measure the result, we're relying on human beings to tell us what the are preceiving. there just isn't a lot of precision in that kind of testing.
but, i'm no expert on any of this, so i have no desire to argue the point. i will say that i did receive a degree in electrical engineering from a well-respected university, and prior to that i was musically trained at a conservatory, so i like to think i balance my scientific and human/artistic sensibilities to the best of my ability. and above all, i try my best to maintain respect for all opinions, knowing full well that i have as much tendency as anyone to degenerate into irrational, reactionary rants. but again, respect! we live in free countries (for the most part), the internet is a place for free thought, so let's all respect each others' freedoms and keep open minds. :) |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
It would be perfectly acceptable to me and I don't mind at all someone expressing his opinion in that way. I don't know for sure, if different wood material makes a difference, but I don't reject that possibility, only because it might seem very unlikely. I also don't want to go into argument over it, because it is not that important. |
Yup. That's how I approach it as well. Does something that makes for a subjective difference do so because of an actual audible difference? Dunno. All I know is that if I get greater satisfaction from it, that's all that counts. If it turns out that something sounds better to me simply because it looks good, then here's to good looks.
| quote: | | But it's quite rude to state openly that it does not make a difference and it's quite amusing to fight over it;) |
How is it any less rude to state openly that it does?
I don't think rude's a good term to describe either case.
I just think that if you're going to make an objective claim, whether FOR audibility or LACK of audibility, you should be prepared to back it up with objective evidence. If you're not prepared to do that, then don't make the claim in the first place. Simple as that.
se |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by dorkus
i think there is a problem when one side cannot accept that there really is no clear answer. |
Yup. Whenever one asserts something as an absolute when there is ambiguity they're going to get into trouble.
So why can't we just put the absolutes aside until there is actually something absolute?
The so-called "yeasayers" have no absolute objective evidence to support their absolute claims and that lack of absolute objective evidence does not constitute absolute objective evidence in support of the absolute claims of the so-called "naysayers."
What I can't understand is why the absolutists on either side are so hell bent on shoving their dogma down everyone else's throats.
Why can't we all just be content to share our subjective experiences and leave it at that? This debate's been raging for decades now and since the "yeasayers" are never likely to get off their asses and put their money where their mouth is and do the research which would prove their claims, there's simply nothing new to add to the debate.
It's been nothing but "Tastes great!/Less filling!" for going on 30 years now. I think it's well past time to give it a rest and just have some fun.
se |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
I just think that if you're going to make an objective claim, whether FOR audibility or LACK of audibility, you should be prepared to back it up with objective evidence. If you're not prepared to do that, then don't make the claim in the first place. Simple as that.
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Yes, and this is how I also try to approach it. And this is one reason I don't make any objective claims anymore. All I do is observations and suggestions and whatever I post, it is only my personal view. You can, of course, blame me for being lazy or not carefull enough to add 'IMHO' ea. time when I do it, but then, I wouldn't find any pleasure in sharing my views anymore;). |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Yes, and this is how I also try to approach it. And this is one reason I don't make any objective claims anymore. All I do is observations and suggestions and whatever I post, it is only my personal view. You can, of course, blame me for being lazy or not carefull enough to add 'IMHO' ea. time when I do it, but then, I wouldn't find any pleasure in sharing my views anymore;). |
Hehehe. Understood.
If someone simply says "I tried such and such and it sounded better/worse/whatever" I've no problem at all. I do the same albeit on a somewhat rare basis because I still don't feel that my subjective experiences are of much meaning to anyone else and prefer that people simply try things for themselves and come to their own conclusions.
It's only when people make assertive claims to actual audibility that they step over the line into the objective realm and need to play by objective rules.
se |
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| jh6you |
Nothing is the same.
By measurement, I could get a pair of matching FETs having the same Vgs. They are virtually the same, but never the same. There are many different types and brands of electronic components, and I believe that all are different and they give us different sounds. How much? I do not know well.
I did not know what electron was (still do not know much). Therefore, I started my diy audio with a simple thing, modification. First, I read tons of this and that about the modifications. For example, carbon resistors are good for better sounds of tube amps, tube lovers prefer coil-wound resistors for better sounds, old oil paper capacitors give us smooth and warm sounds, WIMA MKP capacitors make the sounds stiff and tight, silver-plated wires often over-strengthen the sharpness of sounds, tin-plated wires make the sounds softer, etc. and etc. I believed in these information and accordingly I changed lots of different types and brands of electronic components. Actually, I found that there were differences in sound. How much? I do not remember much.
I remember clearly that I invested lots of my expenses, but return with improved sounds was poor comparing with the amount of the investments and very much lower than my expectation.
I would recommend most diyers to put their investment not too much for different types and brands of components. But, If I am asked, I could tell Mr Nelson Pass to use much of his budget to dig into every corner including very small corners of sound improvement by changing many different components for a creation of the world best sounding amplifier.
:yinyang: |
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| Gerontius |
Hi,
The only think I have to say about the issue of respect that some people have brought up is that I think people in general can sometimes put too much emphasis on who a person is, and not enough on what they say, or even more importantly, not enough emphasis on the method they used to get their information.
My problem isn't with someone saying that, for example, maple cases sound different than oak. My problem is that with the method they've used to reach that conculsion, there is no real evidence to back up the claim. Scientifically valid tests of sensory perception can be conducted. If you don't do one, I don't see why I can't call you on it. silver wire may indeed make a difference in the sound of an amp, but unless you've done a valid test you don't know that. I think that some people have interpreted my tone as being rude which doesn't help my argument, and that's my fault. From now on instead of saying that you CAN'T hear a difference, I'll say that you haven't done a valid test to show that you can.
In a comparison between two amps, the null hypothesis is that they sound the same. You do the test to either reject or not reject the null hypothesis. If you reject it, then you can't say they sound the same. If you accept it then you haven't shown that they are different. This has nothing to do with being better or worse, because that is definitely personal taste, just different. As far as I know, no one has ever been able to tell two amps apart that measure reasonably close to each other in power, noise-level, and less than a few% THD.
A common misconception of science seems to be that the results ARE the science. The science is actually the method used to get the results. It's a method of asking questions about the universe, that's all.
Good discussion |
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| janneman |
jh6you,
Thanks for your experiences.
A few comments;
You read "tons of this and that", I respectfully suggest you to read up on electronics & engineering in addition to "opinion statements". That way, you are in a much better position to judge the wild claims on tweaks and tunings.
You say that your investments in exotic components really paid off poorly, yet you also advise Mr Pass to do the same. That is not consistent. Why should Mr Pass spend HIS money if your experience is that it doesn't payoff well?
Anyway, your money is not thrown away. You learned a lot, didn't you?
Jan Didden |
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| dorkus |
oh SY, in the spirit of mutual respect and learning (;)) i did look up the Clever Hans effect, which i think i've heard of before, and i'm not sure it is applicable here.
let me clarify the example i gave earlier. i have a recording on SACD, Saint-Saens Cello Concerto and Tchaikovsky Rococo Variations performed by Pieter Wispelwey, that i enjoy very much for the sonics but more importantly for the musical performance. i used to play this recording all the time, several times a week for several weeks, so my girlfriend became quite familiar with it even from casual observation. one night when we came home, i wanted to wind down with some relaxing music and stuck it in the player, while my gf went to my computer to check her email. a couple days prior, i had applied some ERS material to the player which she did not know about, and she had not heard my stereo since then. to the best of my knowledge i gave no indication of any change to the system, i did not even tell her to listen to the music - it was just playing in the background as usual as far as she was concerned. 3 minutes into the first track, she paused from her computer activities, and asked me what recording we were listening to. "Is this the same recording you always play? it sounds so different now." not revealing i had done anything to the system, i asked her why, and she went on to explain in words that corresponded almost exactly with my own impressions. if anything, she could hear the effect even more clearly than i could, and was able to explain it better to boot! it was eye-opening to say the least. where Clever Hans would have played a role in this, i'm not sure.
needless to say this is hardly a scientific experiment, but i think it at least gives me a little more confidence in something i otherwise can't document. i understand the role of human psychology in all of this, when someone makes a COMPLETELY UNSOLCITED comment on a change they're hearing, it makes it hard for me to believe that we're all just delusional...
p.s. in addition to hearing, we of course must consider the differences in systems (amps, speakers, etc.) and the attendant diferences in resolution when trying to determine the effect of "tweaks" different people can hear in different circumstances. i do think that something that sounds "night and day" to in one system is often imperceptible in another. i myself could not hear much if any difference in a lot of things like component damping, digital interconnects, power cords, etc. a few years ago when my system was not where it is today; however with every improvement and increase of resolution, small things that were once inconsequential became much more clearly audible. it's actually a bit of a curse, as it adds quite a snowball effect to our disease known as Audiophile Neurosis. :p |
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| SY |
| quote: | | needless to say this is hardly a scientific experiment, but i think it at least gives me a little more confidence in something i otherwise can't document. i understand the role of human psychology in all of this, when someone makes a COMPLETELY UNSOLCITED comment on a change they're hearing, it makes it hard for me to believe that we're all just delusional... |
First, thanks for taking the trouble to look up my obscure reference. It's at the very least a cool piece of trivia to pull out at parties. It's also why in medical research testing is done DOUBLE blind.
I wouldn't use the word "delusional" at all. Never have. What we are is human, and given the way evolution has shaped our brains, we all have an irresistable tendency to see patterns where none exist. |
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| dorkus |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
What we are is human, and given the way evolution has shaped our brains, we all have an irresistable tendency to see patterns where none exist. |
very true. how else would Iraq have been responsible for 9/11? :eek: |
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| dhaen |
| quote: | Originally posted by dorkus
very true. how else would Iraq have been responsible for 9/11? :eek: |
:cool: |
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| pinkmouse |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
I wouldn't use the word "delusional" at all. Never have. What we are is human, and given the way evolution has shaped our brains, we all have an irresistable tendency to see patterns where none exist. |
Hang on, let me just check that in the tea leaves...;) |
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| jh6you |
Jan Didden
Thanks for your good point about what to read. By the way, I have a personal problem that my CPU and RAM governing my head are losing power.
My point was that we might need to keep different pursuit between diyers and professional manufacturers. And, I believe that Mr Nelson Pass has a good filtering system in his ear receivers.
:yinyang: |
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| jh6you |
Dorkus
Your ERS seems to impressively work for the mechanism of your CD transport. By the way, I recommend you to try more numbers of random put-ons and put offs of it at irregular time interval and record your gf reactions. Then, your comment could be more convincing.
:yinyang: |
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