| AudioFreak |
| I would like to congratulate Grey Rollins for posting his 1000th post on this forum |
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| Won |
clamor, clamor...
I mean, er, congrats! :)
-Won
I just got my 50th post recently, woohoo! :)
EDIT: Does this mean that Grey has 1/13th of the posts here? Wow. |
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| AudioFreak |
| Yeah Won thats right ... Grey does indeed own 1/13th of the posts here. |
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| paulb |
..and if you multiply his no. of posts by the words per post, he's set a mark that will never be equalled. Insightful and entertaining, they're a pleasure to read.
Congratulations, Grey. I hope your SF is just as good, I'm gonna read some soon. |
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| Helix |
Thanks for contributing so much to the forum, a great achivement!
(don't want to seem ignorant but what is his SF?) |
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| AudioFreak |
| Helix ... SF = Science Fiction ...... Grey is an author of SF books |
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| PassFan |
| Way to go Grey. I always know when a post is going to be good when I see your name on it. Thanks for leading the way. |
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| Super |
I'd have to agree with you on that one, PassFan. Grey is truly the "grandfather" of these forums now (no offense, we all know he's such a youthful guy ;))
Perhaps a celebratory subwoofer project is in order: a line array, slot loaded, 12 driver optical servo system :D |
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| AudioFreak |
| sounds like a good idea to me. |
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| GRollins |
All right, here's my view of where we are and where I'd like to go:
Any idiot can sit on a mountaintop and try to answer questions for those who drop by. The problem is that you end up answering the same questions over and over. Sure, you can do it, but it gets boring, and frankly the whole hermit-guru lifestyle never appealed to me. If nothing else, caves in mountain tops rarely have electricity, which makes running a decent stereo a bit difficult.
I'd like to try to put into place a framework where people can learn things pertaining to audio. Think of it as a very large-scale FAQ; the University of Audio, if you will. With luck we can have a few visiting professors now and then. Nelson Pass drops by sometimes. Perhaps a few others could be persuaded to do so. It certainly would be nice to have one of the better speaker manufacturers visit, wouldn't it? But part of that will depend on you. If Stephen Hawking came to town, you wouldn't bog the poor man down with questions about simple arithmetic, would you? I hope not. It would be more appropriate to use your time with him asking about black holes and dark matter. If, by chance, someone who makes a living at this does show up, please be polite so they'll come back. Don't ask silly, trivial questions. Think before you speak.
It's not as though we're swimming in good, reliable information and can afford the luxury of offending (...or boring...) folks who might have something to offer.
The books out there are few and generally pathetic. There are resources scattered here and there on the web, but they're of uneven quality. I can count on my fingers the sites that I could recommend without saying "...but..." followed by a disclaimer or two.
This is ridiculous.
I'm not sure what format would work best for this, but I'd like to get some things written down that would take care of the fundamentals, so that the time in the 'research labs' scattered here and there across the planet could be more productive. We wouldn't have to stop to answer the phone every five minutes--we could keep right on trying to figure out some of the more subtle points of audio. We've got some people here who actually give a damn about audio and have the ability to do interesting things. Let's let 'em work.
Ideally, the whole thing would run itself. Someone could surf in, take the the amplifier class, and sail off into the sunset with some knowledge about the whichness of the whyfors of how an amplifier is designed. Or a speaker. Or a preamp.
Or how to listen...something overlooked by every single book and web site I've seen. Learning to hear is without question the single most fundamental skill required in listening to music. Yet no one addresses the issue. A rather glaring oversight, wouldn't you say? Sadly, I think it says something about the priorities of those who wrote the books and the websites. Given time, perhaps we can get to that, too.
The 1000 post thing?
That just happened because I talk too much...
Grey |
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| AudioFreak |
| Yeah Grey i corrected the SC book thing... |
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| PassFan |
Grey:
I think you have a good idea there, but we have to be careful. I, myself love the personal feel of this board and I wouldn't want to lose that. On the other hand, a lot of people would sooner ask a question than run a search for the answer (I know I'm guilty of e-mailing you a question and I didn't want to offend). I also run searches all the time. Perhaps a separate section for searches with a large banner on the main page to incite people to use the search engine. I'm just afraid it wouldn't be the same if we didn't interact anymore. :( |
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| norman |
As can be seen from my posts I'm new to this site, but have already learned much from reading posts and doing searches. I agree with Skippy that the basic "feel" to the site should be retained, but at the same time it would be nice to be able to get answers to the basic questions perhaps along the lines of FAQs. Much of this information is scattered here and there in various posts, but it isn't always easy to find. I can imagine a process where "basic" questions could be proposed and those with the knowledge and inclination could submit an answer( this could count as a post for those going for the numbers).:) :) A Primer would be nice also if the energy is there! Perhaps, it could be gathered from existing sources rather than having to reinvent the wheel.
BTW Grey - There is something to be said for mountain tops, and with through "modern technology" you can be there and have your Music too! But then I guess you dont have mountains in SC.
:) :) :)
Norman |
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| Helix |
Cool idea,
We need :
1)Some web space
2)A mster editor
3)A webmaster
4)Audio Jounalists (faq generators)
We would have to propose a stucture to this web Audio Faq, say sorted in to topics such as :
a. Amps
b. Sources
c. loudspeakers
d. listening
and so on, much like the forums.
then under these topics would be subs, such as (say under amps) :
Concepts :- solid state
concepts :- valve
Class system
sub catagory solid state
etc
Then we will add pages and tell everyone in these forums that a new page has gone up, so that everyone can comment or admit changes that need to be made (nothings perfect the first time). After all that the master editor will decide whats relevent (or true!).
Then get some people (proposed audio jounalists) to start making some audio FAQs! |
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| AudioFreak |
| I'm willing to do the pages and the relavent upkeep of any such website.......... |
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| blmn |
Hey GRollins,
Congratulations, man. sometimes we do not agree about some things (HI...), but, for sure this site would not be the same without people like you, who really loves the matter.
Regards |
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| Helix |
i wonder if jason has the web space? hmmm..............................
also, i guess we need someone to be the 'master editor'. He would be useful to decide if there is a argument (even though we will publish everything) about some topic. |
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| GRollins |
Skippy has a valid point in that part of the 'magic' of this site is in the personal contact.
But...
It's killing me, guys. I remember back when this place started (meaning a little over a year ago--seems much longer than that). I watched it nearly from day one. I wanted to know that the 'signal to noise ratio,' i.e. the level of useful content to junk was going to be worthwhile. I waited (lurking, I believe, is the term) and waited, then stepped right smack into the middle of the biggest mess we've had in the infamous Opti-MOS thread. blmn will remember that one, I know, as he took the other side of the debate on whether specs were sufficient to describe the 'sound' of a piece of equipment.
Back then, I could go several days and catch up in a reasonable period of time. There were, I think, the ten newest threads on the front page and that was enough to be able to see several days worth of threads. Now, Jason's increased the window to show the last fifteen or twenty threads and you're lucky if that covers the last six hours.
I used to read every post on every thread. It's gotten to the point now where I rarely read anything in the Digital forum--not much I can contribute there. I haven't looked in on Vince's projector thread in I don't know how long--nothing against Vince, I just ain't got the time. At this point, I'm facing the choice of what to cut out next, 'cause something's got to give.
So I've been giving this some thought, trying to figure out a way to keep from getting bogged down in endless repetitions of "Can I substitute MOSFET x for y in Nelson's Z?" Oi! That stuff's a time-sucker. Gotta run over to the IRF site, look up the specs, glance at the SOA chart, run back here, write up a reply that (hopefully) doesn't come off as brusque or offensive in some way to some newbie who's scared to be asking the question in the first place, for fear of being thought stupid.
So I hit upon this University of Audio metaphor, complete with 'textbooks' and possibly 'professors' who can palm the lighter stuff off on 'graduate students,' etc.
There's a related problem that Geoff and I have discussed a bit, to wit: Off-thread topics. His feeling is that things should be keep more strictly on-topic, if for no other reason than that it would enable you to glance at the thread title and make a decision as to whether to look in on it. I'm sympathetic to his feelings, but it's been my observation that some of the coolest stuff pops up as an aside. If things were tightly structured, people would never come up with the nifty little tidbits, as they probably wouldn't think it worth starting a thread to say, oh, by the way, I used to work at a transformer place. Instead, if they're in Solid State talking about bipolar transistors, they just throw it in as an aside, and if someone thinks it's important, they can pick up on it. I don't know what the answer to this one is, as even Geoff admitted that he'd picked up on an aside by a member and taken it in another direction. I hate to think what I've missed by skipping entire threads...yet, there's just no way I can read them all.
Confound it, the place went and got popular!
I guess it means that we're doing a good job at keeping reasonable in tone while dealing with questions. But, at what price?
Norman,
There are a few hills up in the NW corner of the state, but I've got land up in the NC mountains near where I was born that I retreat to when I feel the need to talk to the owls. No electricity, though. Strictly rough camping. No caves, for that matter. But, man, is it beautiful up there!
Helix, AudioFreak,
Proposed changes to the stucture of the site will need to go to Jason. It's his site, and that's his baliwick. Incidentally, I don't recall that I've ever mentioned it out loud, but Jason made me a Moderator some time back. I've tried to keep low key about it, as I'd rather get in and get my hands dirty in the threads than act like some remote High-'n-Mighty critter. I'm no more (or less) of an *** than you probably already think of me. I haven't actually done anything with my Moderator status other than move a few threads, and step in once when there was a tussle starting in one of the threads. (Ironic, considering the Opti-MOS flap, but there it is. Life is full of contradictions.)
Anyway, my point is that I've got to take a look at my priorities, as I'm not making any money at this, but it's taking a huge amount of my time--to the tune of four to six hours (sometimes more) every day. I've got projects that I need to get to (Mini-Aleph, Aleph-X, OTL amp, servos for the subs, tube phono stage, and something so Top Secret, Eyes Only that I haven't even mentioned it yet for fear of starting a riot. And that's not counting the SOZ Variations and Active Crossovers threads, both of which need attention if they're to serve as 'textbooks.'). I'm sure the same is true for some of the other members, as well...
(I'd be remiss if I didn't thank Geoff for twice saving my ***--once on translating my Aleph PC board layouts into a usable format that would post nicely here, and again when he did the basic research on CAD programs. Both of those were invaluable.)
And, of course, my long-standing gripe (everybody together now): I'm not getting any stories written.
Suggestions are welcome, as it's crunch time, and I'm not quite sure what the best answer is.
Grey |
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| Geoff |
Like Grey, I used to follow every thread but this has now become impossible. I have just been away from my pc for a little over an hour and there have been 16 new posts in that time. The oldest post on the front page is now 3 hours. What it will be like tomorrow after I have had a six hour break for some sleep I hate to think.
Something needs to be done before the more experienced members of the forum become disallusioned and stop providing replies, which is why I submitted the recent post regarding use of the search facilities. However, I do not think that the time and effort setting up a series of FAQ pages will be worth while.
Why? Because they will not be used a large number of people since it is far easier to post a query and then sit back and wait for an answer than it is to search for the information oneself. Excluding the Aleph etc queries which are a special case and perhaps justify an FAQ page, the answers to a lot of the basic questions that appear here can be easily found elsewhere on the web, for example by a visit to the ESP Audio Pages. But this takes a little more time and effort than than posting a query here. A typical example is a query answered by NP today (and he has much better things to do with his time) about the transformer secondary voltage required to give a 30V supply rail. We would be foolish to think that repeating the information readily available elsewhere on the web would reduce the number of posts containing basic questions.
What I believe is necessary is a set of ground rules that are clearly displayed and are presented to each new member at sign-up time. These ground rules would cover such aspects as searching the site (and/or the web) for an answer before posting a query, forum etiquette etc. It could be made clear that if a question is raised that could be answered by a simple search then other members may feel free to ignore the post.
Before this can be done though, the search facilities need to be improved. Jason recently reduced the minimum word length from 4 to 3 so that searches could be done on ZEN, SOZ etc. However, this is not sufficient and the minimum size needs to be reduced to 2, though I appreciate that this will create a much larger search data file. As an example, there was a recent post regarding the value and use of R1 and R8 in the Aleph 30 circuit. Nelson has previously answered this but his reply could not be found as it is not possible to search for 'aleph AND 30 AND r8' because the 30 and r8 are rejected as being to short.
I appreciate the amount of time Grey spends each day at this forum since I spend nearly as much most days answering email queries resulting from my website (which is one of the reasons why the number of my posts here is not as great as Grey's). It takes enough time if one immediately knows the answer, but considerably longer if some initial research is required. Though perhaps you could save some time, Grey, by providing shorter replies?
What we need to do is to educate the new members (and some of the existing ones) and to point out the possible repercussions if the ground rules (if they come into existence) are not complied with.
Geoff |
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| Geoff |
Grataku
You are right, Grey does not need to visit the forum or to reply to any of the queries. But what would happen if all the longer serving and/or more experienced members took the same approach? There would be nobody left to answer 'silly' and 'stupid' questions.
The adjectives are yours. Personally, I don't believe any question is silly or stupid if the person asking it does not know and needs the answer. However, I do think that a lot of people can do more to help themselves rather than relying on others to provide the answers for them
Geoff |
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| blmn |
Geoff,
Why not the more experienced people just indicate the FAQ, and not answer some basic questions? It would work and help to reduce the lenght of the answers. I think would be easier to define this rule with a few experienced people than change the mind of a lot of newbies. |
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| Geoff |
blmn
Yes, it would help to reduce the time spent in composing replies, provided other members and visitors didn't mind keep reading "see FAQ", but it would do nothing to cut down the time spent accessing threads and reading new posts which is taking longer and longer even if one is selective in the forums visited.
Geoff. |
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| GRollins |
Unfortunately, we don't have an FAQ section, per se. At least not in the sense that we can point to an established "What Do R0, R1 & R8 Do In The Aleph 30 & 60?" writeup in a separate area.
(As fate would have it, I was searching for the exact same thing Geoff was searching for, and hit exactly the same problem...I eventually got it by going for the keyword 'offset' [thereby sidestepping having to use 'DC,' which isn't indexed], and something else, which I've forgotten.)
The cynic in me thinks Geoff is right--that people are going to be lazy and ask, rather than search, but the optimist in me wishes it weren't so.
Geoff,
Your suggestion about shorter replies is, taken by itself, a reasonable one. I know (I reckon everybody knows by now) that I'm prone to long posts. But, there are two other factors that I try to balance into the equation. One is that I believe not only in giving a person a fish, but trying to teach them how to fish. With luck, they'll be able to answer their own questions next time (by looking at the SOA chart, for instance). The other is--and I'm the first to admit that there are pros and cons to this--the personal aspect. Skippy and Norman (and many others who e-mail me directly) seem to like the lighter, less formal approach. Electronics can get awfully dry if it's reduced to nothing but numbers, so I try to make it warmer, more human, and when possible, funny. But that takes more words, hence longer posts. It's possible to answer some of the questions that come up with a simple yes or no, but it rather takes away from the 'feel' of the place. This is another one I don't have a good answer for.
Someone take a vote somewhere and let me know if I'm supposed to drop back to yes or no answers.
I do like your idea of some basic ground rules. The trick will be to apply them as gently as possible, as it would be easy to bludgeon someone with a rule and chase them off.
But something's got to be done.
Grataku had a post which seems to have vanished, but the point he made still hangs in the air, unspoken.
Why do I do this? Why don't I just walk away?
The answer is long and complex and would take a long post even by my standards (people at this point start looking at their watches...). Part of it is simply that this is in my blood. I've been fiddling with electronics since I was five or six years old, picking up discarded radios and wondering about all those colorful parts inside. If I get away from this stuff too long, I get itchy. I wake up in the middle of the night thinking about cathode followers and MPSA18s.
Maybe I need to join a 12 step program for recovering electroholics.
(Nah...I'll stay sick a little longer...)
Another reason is something I've always heard called a Chinese Obligation. If you take in a stray cat, you incur the moral obligation to either care for that cat, or find it a loving home if you can't support it yourself. You can't just put it back on the street. It simply isn't right. It doesn't matter whether anyone is watching. It doesn't matter whether there's a law against it. It's a matter of self respect.
So what's that got to do with diyAudio?
Have you looked at how many strays we've picked up here?
I never intended to rack up a thousand posts. I never even intended to get ten. I just jumped in and the little counter started clicking. If someone passes me, that's cool. That's not what I'm here for. Somewhere out there is a kid who's got the innards of a radio in front of him and wants to know what the color bands on the resistors mean. I'm here for him.
Or her, come to that...
Grey |
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| Jason |
Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread, and especially to Grey for selfless and giving nature. Congratulations on the thousand posts.
You can count on my help in taking your dreams wherever you want them to go. I can provide web space, bandwidth, php/mysql expertise. My day job at sitepoint doesn't leave much time in the day for my hobby (this site) but I can make time for anything that is important.
I'm still on holiday so I am avoiding the computer at the moment, but will be watching this thread avidly.
Thanks once again. |
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| AudioFreak |
| Hey Jason, i just realised why the board is reporting the wrong time ..... you've got the server in daylight saving time.... |
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| Geoff |
For the benefit of those reading this thread and finding that parts of it don't make sense, Grataku has deleted two posts that he had submitted. I was originally going to include a precis of what was in the posts so that subsequent comments made more sense, but finally decided that if Grataku no longer wished his views to be made public then I would respect that desire.
This comes back to my gripe in another thread about disappearing threads/posts. If you have second thoughts and decide to remove something that you have said, please either edit the original post or delete it and add another to indicate that something has been removed (preferably with some indication as to why). This will make the thread easier to follow for subsequent readers.
Geoff |
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| remp |
There comes a time when everyone has to decide how best to ration their available time. I understand your comments about electronics being in your blood. Its in mine too and many others no doubt feel the same. But its just a bit like the corner dairy. There you could pass the time of day chatting learning browsing and walking away with good thoughts. The store owner took the time to talk to you. He knew you. He knew you since you were 5 years old. He may likely have known your parents and sold them goods along with interesting chat.
Today its rush and bustle. Down to the supermarket where chances are you are an unknown, you are a number passing through the shop. Nobody cares if you come or go. And you could end up with a dent in your car from Mr or Mrs annonymous. They say its progress. You get your goods cheaper. Wrapped up better. Package sizes and 16 million colour photos on the front reseached by highly paid consultants. This will sell. This is what they want.
Is it what we want. Do we want a supermarket DIY forum where answers are packaged.
Do we just want to hop in and get an answer and hop out again or do we need not only the answer but some background to go with it like a side salad. Here is your steak Sir/Madam and here are the trimmings just the way you like them. That is the reason you keep returning isn't it.
I think this forum has grown because it is popular. There are very few rules. There is a very friendly atmosphere and there are some very knowledgeable people offering their time and their experience and their best advice. A lifetimes best advice.
Maybe an FAQ would help. Who would maintain it. Who would add to it. How can you know what people will ask. What percentage of questions could a DIY FAQ answer. Maybe Jason could automatically number posts in a thread.
Yes Fred thats a good question see post # 14 might help you there. Somebody will remember the post numbers and contents and that could be more help than no one answering a newbies' question.
Just a few thoughts. |
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| GRollins |
Consider this a philosophical musing upon Geoff's and Richard's most recent posts: We have reached a point where it's no long a dozen guys with beers at their elbows arguing and laughing about Audio Things. It's gotten too big for that. I don't recognize a lot of the people here any more; there's just too many of them. That's okay, it's part of growing. But another aspect of growing is that people need to settle into some sort of embedded rule system. When you're driving to the bar to chat with the guys, you can't just drive down the middle of the street like you used to when you had the road to yourself. You have to stick to one side of the road so as not to have an unpleasant encounter with oncoming traffic.
Bummer.
What the rule system should be, I don't know. I grudgingly see the need for it, but I think that it will change the feel of the place. Of course, that was inevitable once things started ramping up the way they have. My internal shift in metaphor from guys (and the occasional gal--most welcome, mind you) having a drink together, to the University of Audio represents my own struggle to keep all this in perspective. It's one thing to have three or four people in on a conversation, but it's another entirely when it becomes 30 or 40, each wanting their say.
Then along comes some pesky SOB, half-drunk before he even gets to the table, and he wants to make a spectacle of himself. <i>Sigh.</i>
(Where's the bouncer when you need him?)
So do you limit the number of people? Yikes! Don't want to do that. The one left at the door might have been the one with the solution to the problem.
Do you take out the convivial atmosphere? Oh, brother. Now it's no fun any more. Too much like work.
One of the things I find worrisome about imposing rules is that the person who has to crack down ends up being unpopular. Don't think so? How many people here count a policeman as their best friend? Perhaps one or two, but not that many. Policemen serve a noble and necessary function, but they're also pariahs. They mainly hang around with each other.
Growing pains...thought I was old enough not to have to worry about that any more. Silly me.
One aspect of the problem is that people feel this hobby on different levels. To some it's just an avenue to save money; they could care less about theory, just give them a complete, tested schematic, a box of parts, and a soldering iron, and they're out the door. Others are just beginning to wonder about why these things work. Given a little attention, that spark might burst into flame. Then there are those who are on fire from head to toe when they come in the door. They're easy to spot.
Those who just want a schematic don't understand that people might <i>like</i> being on fire. Conversely, those who burn don't understand how someone could get through the day without thinking about the differences a little more bias might make.
I estimate that there are less than a half-dozen people here who are competent to conceive a new non-trivial project (bolting a driver into a round hole to make a sub is <i>tres</i> trivial, don't even bring it up), design it, build a prototype, solve the bugs, build a second prototype, solve the remaining bugs, and wrestle it across the finish line as a finished project...with no help from anyone in any way. There are probably thirty or forty who could do so with a little help. From there, it drops off fairly rapidly. This is no surprise, it's a standard pyramid of ability, just like you find in any field. The question is to find a balance between the amount of access that people have to those with more ability. Right now, it's 100%, and I like that. But does that need to change? (Whether I like it or not.) Do the hypothetical rules need to incorporate some built-in hierarchy? A moderator for each forum? For each sub-forum? (We're headed that way. It's getting awfully hard to find things now. Some sort of breakdown into more narrowly defined categories might help people [both newbies and oldbies] find things more easily.) Note that I'm not advocating that much regimentation (I prefer being a bit of a maverick, myself), just trying to imagine a structure that will meet the needs of the largest number of people...
...and still be fun. 'Cuz when it quits being fun, people start leaving, and that would be a cryin' shame.
Grey |
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| cp642 |
Grey,
Well said.....and congratulations for the 1000th or rather 1009 th post...better late than never;) |
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| Geoff |
I was not proposing that a rigid set of rules be laid down and that dire consequencies befall anyone who breaks them, such as having one's membership revoked. The behaviour in these forums is generally very civilised and any policing that has been needed has normally been done by other members. What I am suggesting is a short list of guidelines for new (and some existing) members, designed to remove some of the chaff from the forums. There wouldn't need to be too many guidelines and I don't see a need for Grey's 'unpopular policeman', just some peer pressure to get the point over to recalcitrant offenders.
I suggest that all that is likely to be needed is something along the following lines (obviously put into a sensible order and correct English):
Please search before posting a new query to see if the question has already been answered.
If you decide to delete a post please leave an indication that you have done so (and preferably the reason why).
Please only submit posts to an existing thread that add value to the discussion.
Please try to keep to the topic of the thread. If going off-topic please consider starting a new thread so that it is indexed and can be seen by a wider audience.
Please start new theads in the correct forum for the topic being raised.
Please avoid inflamatory statements and derogatory comments. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion.
Please respect intellectual property rights and neither request nor supply details of schematics, pcb layouts etc that are not in the public domain.
There are bound to be other suggestions that will need to be considered. These are just some first thoughts to get a debate going. However, as we have gone completely off-topic in this thread, perhaps I should have started a new one.
Geoff |
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| Sawzall |
The DIY world needs a really good FAQ - or Knowledge Base of All We Know About Sound. The reality is that given all the posting that happens here, if somehow it could be distilled down, it would make a good book.
Well, recognizing this, there is a type of web software called a Wiki. It allows users to add, edit, play around with, the web pages of a site. It allows trusted users to edit the web pages of a site. Perhaps if we connected a Wiki to this site, and then allowed users who had been around and posted say 50 messages to work on the FAQ - in a while, we would have a FAQ without any one person having to do all the heavy lifting.
I have not done a good job of explaining this - so take a look around a Wiki (there are many about computing) and see if this might be a doable thing for us. I would love to contribute. |
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| haldor |
| quote: | Originally posted by GRollins
Someone take a vote somewhere and let me know if I'm supposed to drop back to yes or no answers.
Grey |
No. |
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| AudioFreak |
| Nope, definately not.... keep it up Grey. |
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| surf,sun&sound |
Good day to All,
I like most people in the Southern Hemisphere have been on holidays, so I have just logged on to DIYAudio for the first time since coming backk to the real world! Ugh!! What an interesting thread, to come back too!!
Congratulations to Grey for a 1000 posts, it represents a huge contribution of time and commitment at the cost of your own projects and life.
First, I want to thank everyone on this forum for their help, guidance, and advice that they have imparted to me on my flaming ride into the world of DIY Audio. I believe each of us owe a huge thank you to the "elders" of this forum including Grey, Geoff, Nelson Pass, ThomasW, Kelticwizard, and many more. These are people who give a tremendous amount of time dispensing advice and ideas to those of us who do not have the experience or knowledge needed for the current project.
Here is an excerpt from an E-mail I sent to Geoff recently in response to a project we are working on - "I believe in every hobby there is a group of 5% of the enthusiasts who contribute 90% of the time, know-how and energy to promote and expand the interest and quite often because of very little support and
gratitude from the 90%, they burn out and become cynical and leave the discipline altogether. And then they are bagged and boo'ed for being spoil-sports and self-promoters by the very people who were parasites on them for many years."
I am not technically competent in the theory and practice electronics as I would like to be, but learning as rapidly as possible and much of the credit has to go the folks of DIYAudio. So I am relying very heavily on the experience and patience of those in the know on this forum as I take a headlong plunge into the world of electronics.
I have experienced the addictiveness of this forum, spending way too much time here reading and replying. I embarked on 3 projects late last year, a power amp, pre-amp, and a set of full range drivers built from scratch designing even the magnets and cones. But because of the grip of passing on information, I have made little progress, instead helping format web-pages, scanning graphics, redrawing schematics, and etc for everyone to profit from.
I personally try to find the answers to my question by searching the forum before starting a new thread so I believe that an expanded search engine would be a great asset, also a set of guidelines for new members(and old!!) that recommend reducing duplicate threads by searching for answers on exsisting threads. Also I like the Wiki idea presented by Sawzall, to help catalog information on the site for quick reference.
But above and beyond all of this, we, newbies and learners, need to keep a constant stream of gratitude and support going to those who have the answers we need, so that they will continue to make the necessary contributions and guidance that this forum has become known for, and so we all can benefit from the experience of the "elders" and the enthusiasm of the "neophytes" in our quest of audio perfection.
So thank you to everyone for your time and advice, it is much appreciated.
Surf, Sun & Sound |
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| pkgum |
Grey is indeed one of the masters of this forum. 1000 posts is indeed amazing.
On the subject of posting records, in www.hometheaterforum.com (In the DIY section) this guy called Patrick Sun has posted roughly 9000 times. Now that is absolutely unreal. |
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| Sud |
Congrats on 1000 posts Grey. You're an inspiration to everyone who comes to DIYAudio.
I'd like to add my thoughts on this. Rather than compiling an FAQ for its own sake, I'd suggest we analyse what topics the bulk of the repeated posts are, and produce a focused document on that.
So, if many of the posts are Aleph construction related, let's put together an "Aleph builder's handbook" or something similar. I don't have a problem with being told to "have a read of our Aleph builder's handbook, and ask again if you're still having troubles" - because it makes the information easy to access (as opposed to searching).Don't call it an FAQ - many FAQ's are useless so people ignore them.
Although I have posted only rarely, I have learned much from regularly visiting this site, to the point where my own Aleph 30's are now operational. Thanks everyone.
Suggesting that a handbook/guide is put together is like saying "Grey, how about answering the next 1000 simple questions in advance" - someone has to do it. I don't think it should be Grey - he's done more than enough already and has better things to be doing.
I'm going to put my hand up and say I'll put the Aleph construction handbook together, if it get's the nod. We should get the OK from NP before doing this to be polite.
I don't know what other common topics are discussed, but perhaps a few others can kick in to put other topics together. |
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| AudioFreak |
| Grey, I would be particularly interested in your idea of constucting a "How to listen handbook" as I too find that there is a severe lack of resources on what is a very important topic .... although it is easy to become cynical..... though if there wasnt a little bit of cynic in each of us there wouldnt be a need for DIYer's.......... |
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| GRollins |
Sud,
I agree that FAQs are frequently a waste of time. That's why I came up with the 'textbook' metaphor. The topics would, indeed, be based on the most-often asked questions: Can I substitute MOSFET x for MOSFET y?, Where do you find big heat sinks?, etc. as those are some of the biggest time-wasters. The first time you see someone ask such a question, you're sympathetic...after the fiftieth time, it gets a little old. I'd like to have a permanent, easy-to-find thread on each of the most common time-wasters, as it's a bit difficult to get on to the more interesting things if you're forever trotting over to the IRF (or Motorola, or whoever...) website to do someone's homework for them.
And the actual mechanics of how to arrange the 'textbooks' are still up in the air...
More advanced topics, like building an Aleph, are where my interests lie. I've got ideas circling like planes at a busy airport, waiting for a chance to land (Why should the solid state guys have all the fun? How would you tube folks like a tube X preamp? Your choice: 6DJ8/6922s, 6SN7s...how about a nice X-OTL amp to go with it? Not to mention a basketful of solid state projects that are in limbo for lack of time.) But I can't seem to break free of the mundane stuff. As long as they're legitimate questions, I'll try to get around to them, but I'm trying to get some projects moving here at Chez Bear, and that doesn't leave as much time for Q&A sessions online.
Incidentally, I've already started a thread for Aleph building: Aleph 2s (and others) as a project...or something like that. I try to make my titles as obvious as possible (in contradistinction to such useless titles as Help! or I have questions! which could be on anything from how many spots are on a leopard, to how to fry an egg). I will, eventually, get a parts list in there and get some other factors--like transformer selection--nailed down. My motto these days is,"Rome wasn't built in a day."
AudioFreak,
Yeah, that's one of my higher priorities, trust me. From day one, I've seen evidence that people spend too little time actually <i>listening</i> to their stereos. I'm not talking about the amount of time spent sitting in front of their speakers--I mean the level of actual perception that they bring to the table. Human hearing can be educated...the sad part is that most people have kindergarden ears...
Grey |
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| Jason |
AF: The server is in the states and keeps its own time, I guess I should make 'diyAudio time' simple old GMT to keep it in line with the worldwide nature of the site, but most traffic seems to come from the US.
Geoff: I have now changed the way posts (a post is any subsequent reply to a thread) can be edited. Zero to 2 minutes after posting if you edit your post if will appear word for word. If you edit it within 2 - 10 minutes, it will have "Edited by..." after it. After 10 minutes you won't be able to edit or delete your message.
For what it's worth, grey has now punched more than a million keys into this forum comprising 13% of the content here. What an amazing contribution.
> Something needs to be done before the more experienced members of the forum become disallusioned and stop providing replies
I think this is certainly the heart of the matter. The answer is limited only by our imagination.
From your suggestions can I suggest the following preliminary battle plan:
<li> Ground rules presented and emailed to new users on signup (I like Geoff's suggestions)
<li> Improved 'in your face' search throughout
<li> A checkbox in the 'start new thread' forum that must be checked to make sure people have searched for their answer before asking
<li> Search will be reduced to 2 characters
<li> A user editiable FAQ be set up, so that people who want to contribute their best, can, knowing that it will not go to waste. The choice of software will make or break this, but I like Sawzall's suggestion of a Wikki, restricted to people with experience. |
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| Geoff |
Jason
Thanks, your 'preliminary battle plan' seems to be a move in the right direction.
My suggested ground rules were very much a first stab and I think we should encourage input from other members (maybe a new thread?) since if there is not a concensus then the rules will not be followed. I have thought of a few more possible additions since my previous post such as 'Please don't add posts that just say "Yes, I agree with UncleSam"' (though this is really covered by the 'added value' rule). I will add these to the new thread if it is created.
Geoff |
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| GRollins |
Jason,
A <i>million?</i>
Ow! Suddenly my poor, widdle, itty-bitty fingers are sore.
I'd like to add something to Geoff's suggested rules: Please don't e-mail me at home with things better handled online. Science fiction comments/questions are OK, how's the weather is OK, even shameless flattery (within reason) is OK, but please don't go asking me to design your circuit for you, or to look up MOSFET substitutions, or ask where to find big heatsinks, or...
If these things are handled here at the diy site, others can benefit from them, but if I have to do this stuff on a one-by-one basis, it gets to taking up a prodigious amount of time. And time is something I ain't got.
There are legitimate reasons to contact folks at their home e-mail address--Geoff and I have made good use of the feature, for instance--but it's getting over-used, at least in my case. I'd hate to have to take my e-mail address out of the little doohicky and go undercover.
Grey |
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| Sawzall |
I am glad that the concept of a Wikki has been received fairly well. I really think that it could be useful. While I cannot contribute as much as others, there will be a role for those of us who just work to keep it organized. It can be a great knowledge base - and will allow us to tell folks to **** with glee, since we know that the info is there and that it only takes a little hunting for the answer.
And that is really the issue: I can't spell, so a dictionary is pretty useless to me. A resource book is only as good as its index - The real value is not the information, but the ability to find it, despite how ignorant we are. |
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| GRollins |
Yes, that's me...
Grey |
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| dice45 |
| quote: | Originally posted by GRollins
Yes, that's me...
Grey |
Hello Grey,
impressive! I love good SF, is some of it available in German translation or would I have to order in the US?
Dtopic,
Congrats to your contributions here! I am not adressing at the mere count or length of posts. I mean the ethics and attitude you expose in your posts.
I thought such had be extinct on the web. I must admit, I ran away from other forums. Could not stand the mindless tedium. offensiveness and ego display anymore. Platzhirsch behaviour ("I am the biggest deer!!!") as we would call this in Germany.
Stay the way you are (improvements officially permitted :-) ) !
Dtopic,
you made a lot of good suggestions concerning University of Audio in the thread. And you are an experienced author. Suggestion: you write your University of Audio FAQ book, you have the power to include or omit what you with your wisdom think should be in the book or not. Why write nothing but SF, write a book about audio!
And yes, a section about how to learn to listen should definitely be in it.
And then, make the book beautiful and a joy to hands. And then sell it for big bucks!
Your knowledge presented with your attitude defintely is worth to pay for. I would buy your book!
A buddy of mine made such a book about famous stereo vinyl records and he sold more than a thousand copies at a price of US$ 250 which was Deutschmarks 500.- . it was very informative an in fact, it was a record order catalog, the most expensive record catolog in history.
Another buddy wrote two books about preamps and cables, sold them for US$30 each. They were only Xerox copied but very entertaining and also informative. TMK, he sold several 1000 copies.
Both guys were their own publishers.
Maybe this gets you thinking, I am waiting on your book!
Greets from someone planning something similar. |
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| Jason |
| FWIW at <a href="http://www.sitepoint.com">SitePoint</a> (my da<i>y</i> job which keeps me away from diyAudio.com!) we have recently converted <a href="http://www.webmasterbase.com/article/228">our most popular article</a> into a <a href="http://sitepoint.com/books/?bookid=PHPMSQL">book</a>, and it is selling very well. The book is printed and shipped on demand by <a href="http://www.booksurge.com">Digitz / BookSurge</a> so we can just stand back and let the magic of the web do it's thing. It's similar to a <a href="http://www.cafepress.com">cafepress</a> model, and from memory costs somewhere around $10 per book to get it printed (shipping is extra) so it provides a reduced risk entry to the publishing market. |
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| GRollins |
Bernhard,
No, I don't think any of my stuff has been translated into any foreign language. (If you find otherwise, let me know.)
Jason,
Um...so what are you saying, fella?
Grey |
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| Jason |
Me? Oh, just throwing a lead to any prospective publishers out there that:
<li>don't know where to start in terms of getting their stuff printed
<li>worry that if they go and write a book and it doesn't sell that they will be stuck with excess inventory
<li>don't want to deal publishing companies / retailers telling them that they need to ship them X copies and then if they don't sell them they will send them back
<li>might think that there is a very high price barrier to enter the publishing game
I don't know of any other services that do it, if you do please let me know. It would be good to find a print-on-demand publishing company that is as slick as cafepress.
Sorry, perhaps off topic... but what is on topic? :) |
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| dice45 |
| quote: | Originally posted by GRollins
Bernhard,
No, I don't think any of my stuff has been translated into any foreign language. (If you find otherwise, let me know.)
Jason,
Um...so what are you saying, fella?
Grey |
Hello Grey,
did I say something wrong? Sorry, this was not my intention.
BTW, Jason's hints were leading exactly in the direction my suggestion was aiming at, too.
Should I find copies of your novels in my language, wouldn't that be a copyright violation? I would tell you of course.
Hello Jason,
thanxalot for the posted links, I already investigated them, also visited distant conres :) ... exactly what I need!
Greets, |
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| GRollins |
Bernhard,
No, you didn't say anything wrong. In fact, you understood quite correctly. If you manage to find any of my stories in a language other than English, then I need to know so as to send the cops after them.
Grey |
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| jam |
Meanwhile back in the duengon at Rollins Manor, Sir Grey was hunched over his latest project. He uttered a faint cry followed by " F*#@ing current sources......."
:D
Congratulations Grey!
Jam |
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| GRollins |
And as the smoke curled from his soldering iron, he cried out,"Igor, more MOSFETs..."
Hours later, with lightning crashing about the battlements, he cackled gleefully, rubbing his hands together,"<i>IT LIVES!</i>"
Grey |
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| AudioFreak |
| Grey, If you mean your XA lives, i've got one word for you .... YIPPEE! |
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| GRollins |
Oops...sorry...didn't mean to start clamors, er, rumors. Just me 'n Igor kinda hanging out, ya know. Just us guys. Me 'n the hunchback. Nuthin' happenin' here. Pizza and beer, nuthin' special.
(<i>Pssst</i>, Igor...kick that finger up under the work bench. Not <i>that</i> finger, you fool! The other one...the one that's twitching!)
Grey |
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| walker |
I've been away for a while, just got back and found this thread, thought I'd like to put in my 2cents worth.
Congradulations, Grey on the passing of the milestone. Many thanks for all the time that you have put into this forum.
It has been because of the input from yourself, (and others) that this forum has, I believe, set a new standard on the internet. This has become a mountain of information on a subject that has in the past been driven by manufacturers and not users.
If only more groups could foster differences of opinion in a civil and informative manner similar to this site.
I take my hat off to you,
regards WALKER |
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| Jamie F |
I fully support the "University of Audio" idea and would be willing to assist in whatever way I could.
Jamie |
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| Variac |
Just had to pat Grey on the back too.
Here is my story:
Back as an undergraduate in the early 70's we weren't materialistic at all....... except for you had to have a cool stereo!!
A Norton was also a nice touch if you could afford one! But we weren't materialistic!
BUT the coolist thing I saw was a stereo that this guy had MADE.
I had to do that someday....
30 years pass and I'm cruising the web and discover the Son of Zen. The most elegant and simple design I had ever seen-I could make that!! Put up by Nelson Pass well known amp-god.
So I write him -and he writes back!!! and I get the info I need and have a blast searching the corners of the web for surplus stuff for my amp.
Still have a lot of questions and hate to keep bugging Nelson.
Then I discover diy Audio and now I have Grey and Nelson and FEThead and super BBQ ;) (Sorry Super BQ, but once that guy mentioned BBQ I constantly imagine a combo grill/son o Zen
a steak on top with perfect sear lines from the heatsinks)
and a bunch of others that have gotten me to the point of just putting the thing together.
I am now addicted to DIY. I have posted about 6 responses when I actually could help somebody. I'm into this for life...
next the pre-amp. (also one more question confirming how to wire the transformer coming shortly.)
My suggestion for the first textbook for the university:
Amp power supplies. Most of the Pass designs are simple enough that the power supply is the major issue. I am starting to see my questions being asked again by others.
There is lots of info about speakers on the web, but a lot less about amps.
If all the questions about powersupplies were culled out and combined with duplications removed, a bit of narrative to tie it together then 90% of the PS questions can just be referred to the PS book/FAQ . Include the formulas for inductance, voltage drops due to the type of filter, DCR of inductors etc.
Second FAQ: A list confirming that your particular IRC transistor is OK or what its limitations are. Everyone writes in to confirm before ordering those 100 transistors! And they seem to be asking always about one of 5 models (OK, I asked too)
Thanks all for making my dream come true (almost)
Mark |
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