| MadMax |
Hi guys Ive Just finshed making cat5 speaker cables, it was a big job as I run 3way active mains plus active sub and yes I can hear a diffrance much better than monster cable clone I was using. I want to upgrade my interconects and am looking for suggestons on DIY recipes. What are you guys out there using.
Cheers Max |
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| sianturi |
Hello MadMax....
What cable did you use? Belden 1583 or 1585? I'm wondering if I could also use Belden 1583... |
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| MadMax |
I used a BICC GENERAL 24awg verified cat5 e, this maybe made in New Zealand, Iam not sure but I think any cat5 is good, I trust others will correct if Iam wrong.
Cheers max |
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| sianturi |
According to John Risch, the insulator has some effects on the sound. That's why he recommended Belden 1585 (1583 has different insulator, and the insulator type of 1583 is not recommended by John Risch, if i'm not mistaken)
-Edwin- |
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| JOE DIRT® |
| I`m using Belden 9463....works good for me :) |
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| bigparsnip |
Hi, just to get back to the original question from the topic, I am using a cable made up of some Shark phono cable (Maplin part No XS39) with some fairly cheep endplugs. At the moment, this sounds quite good between me Cambridge D500se and Sony amp (a lot more deatailed than my freinds £30 one, but can't remeber what type that is), with a little more bass. But, I was wondering if I would see much of an inprovement in moving to a solid silver cable (Like Maplin No XS56) and some better neutrik phono plugs (ala No CC71).
If anyone has any experience with this type of cable, or silver cable in general, and the effects of better plugs, I would be interested in hearing your oppinions. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| I tried some off market solid silver wire made into a cable and it didn't sound well. OTOH, I just made my own Kimber Silver Streak cable, using 2 x TCSS and one AGSS wire and it sounds very good. So silver is not always the same and it depends on many factors. And I think that wire makes bigger difference than endplugs. |
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| Ulas |
I don't care for silver wire in interconnects or speaker cable. I find its tonal balance on the cool side.
For a couple interconnect variations using fine copper litz wire, take a look at: DIY wire recipes
I am using the Teflon version for my primary sources, phono, preamp, dac, and the polypropylene version for secondary sources, tuner, cassette, etc. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | I tried some off market solid silver wire made into a cable and it didn't sound well. |
No surprise, the cable configuration plays a big role as does the quality of the silver...same goes for copper or gold anyway.
CAT5 is a network cable that really pushes it. It can be made to sound very good for audio as Chris Venhaus has proven.
Crystalyne structure, purity, shielding etc, all play a major role.
And, more importantly...it doesn't have to cost an arm and a legg to achieve high-end results.
Cheers,;) |
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| MadMax |
| So has anyone used cat5 for interconets Iam thinking of trying just a pair no sheilding, has anyone tryed this, if so what did you think are you still using it, keep the replys coming guys Iam looking for DIY here. Any tryed RG6 ??? |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | So has anyone used cat5 for interconets Iam thinking of trying just a pair no sheilding, |
Why would you want to do away with the shielding?
Like to listen to aliens? Or just the radiostations?
Brrr,:rolleyes: |
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| MadMax |
Dosint the twisted pair give rejection of alians
Max. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Dosint the twisted pair give rejection of alians |
To some extend...and at the expense of other params...not very effectively anyway.
Cheers,;) |
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| mrfeedback |
I am using telephone wire strands (white insulation), arranged in non-directional star-quad configuration and unshielded.
I find this sounds very good indeed, and no RF pickup problems.
Be sure to use plain copper strands (no tin plating).
Eric. |
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| MadMax |
Hi Eric could you please provide more info on your interconnects, what do you mean by non directional star quad.
Cheers Max:clown: |
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| mrfeedback |
Hello Max,
To make non-directional interconnect you need a single strand of insulated wire four times the length of the interconnect (eight times for a stereo pair).
I used plain copper (no platings), white pvc insulated telephone wire.
The active consists of two strands, ditto the neutral.
Each leg goes from the source connector to the load connector and back again.
The two actives are diametrically opposite as per the diagram below, ditto the neutrals.
To make this cable, make four holes in each of two 1 inch square plates (plywood etc), each with a hole at each corner.
Fit a screw and nut through a center hole in each plate.
Fix one plate to say a vice, and the other into the chuck of a variable speed (slow) drill.
Tie one end of the wire to one corner hole at the vice end.
Run this wire through one hole of the drill end plate, across the center to the diametrically opposite hole and back to the vice end and diametrically opposite the start end wire.
Now thread this wire to one of the unused holes and back to the drill end, and then back again to the vice end, and tie off in the last hole.
At this stage, mark the active strands just in front of the plates with a marking pen.
Now take the drill and pull on the wires so that they equalise tension and are in a square configuration without any crossovers.
With the drill dead square on, rotate the chuck whilst keeping suitable tension, and spin the wires tight enough to stay together reliably.
You may need to unspin the cable a little, and get an assistant to run up and down the wires with a cloth to help form them neatly whilst doing this.
You now need to cut the wires from the plates, cut the cable in the middle, and using a continuity tested determine which wires are the actives and neutrals, strip the ends and solder them into your chosen connectors.
The star-quad arrangement reduces loop inductance, and reduces RF pickup despite no shielding.
You may like to experiment with fitting a braid (metallic or not) over the assembly, but I have not bothered.
The non-directional arrangement gives much better depth imaging to my ears, and overall the sound is friendlier, smoother, more detailed and overall more pleasant than other cables that I have heard.
This non-directional characteristic also makes Absoloute Polarity more evident, and this is a benefit in my opinion.
You may like to try wire with different insulation material, but to my ear this pvc is quite ok.
Other members recommend teflon insulation, but to my ear this gives an un-naturally hard sounding characteristic.
I hope this explains it for you, and if you try it please tell us (me) of your results.
Regards, Eric.
PS - Goto Canare for more info regarding star-quad. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Have you tried shielding, Eric?
Ciao,;) |
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| mrfeedback |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
Have you tried shielding, Eric?
Ciao,;) |
Hi Frank,
No I haven't tried shielding yet.
So far I have not had any hint of RF pickup, so I have not bothered so far.
The other day I pulled some coax out of the garage so that I can strip the shielding braid (plain copper), but have not fitted it yet.
There has been comments that if shielding is not required (because of RF), the sound can be better without it.
Do you have any experience in this ?.
Eric. |
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| MadMax |
Thanks Eric Ill be making some up and will post my resuilts when done. It will take a week or 2 as I live in the sticks and need to get some rca plugs, Iam also intrested to hear if anyone has replace there rca's with something else, if so what with and what did it sound like.
Cheers Max |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | No I haven't tried shielding yet. |
The trouble with RFI is that, unless you're equipped to measure for it, isn't all that noticeable until you do away with it.
IME, some systems are more sensitive to it than others so it's worthwhile to experiment to see what performs best.
| quote: | | There has been comments that if shielding is not required (because of RF), the sound can be better without it. |
That seems to be the general consensus, indeed.
Whenever I use shielded wire, be those coax, twinax or star Q, I connect the shield only to one end of the cable.
By doing so it doesn't carry any audio and if you put a small lead at one end experimenting with shielding/no shielding becomes easier.
A good friend of mine even shields his speakercables this way and claims an improvement in sound quality.
I wouldn't jump to conclusions but as said it's worth to at least give it a try.
Cheers,;) |
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| mrfeedback |
Hi Frank,
Yes I'll get around to it soon, and yes I would have grounded the shield at one end only (load end).
What RF effects do you notice, apart from loudly obvious breakthrough ?.
Have you tried making non-directional cables ?.
Eric. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi Eric,
| quote: | | What RF effects do you notice, apart from loudly obvious breakthrough ?. |
Radio breakthrough was never a problem for me other than with a very sensitive MC catridge headamp.
Changing the layout solved it.
YMMV.:)
What you may notice with well shielded I/C cable is a lessening of electronic hash giving a deeper, wider soundstage.
The acoustical environment of the recording venue becomes more easily discernable, all in all the music becomes more enjoyable, less electronic, if you like.
Again, this could be system/environment depending...
| quote: | | Have you tried making non-directional cables ?. |
I always pay attention to that but it's a rather time consuming business unless you buy the raw wire on a spool, of course.
BTW, plain enamelled wire (magnet wire) works very well and is cheap too.
Should be fine for a star quad...probably a bit stiff and it may require some protective sheathing.
Please, let us know what you think after your gave the shielding a try.
Cheers,;) |
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| Audiofanatic |
Hi Frank,
| quote: | | A good friend of mine even shields his speakercables this way and claims an improvement in sound quality |
I totaly agree with your friend. I'v used the Audioqwest midnight 3 and the siltech G3 and Kimber monocle XL but the best cable turned out to be the one I bought frome a friend who owns a hifi shop. It's a sliver plated shielded twisted pair cable with teflon insulation. This is the best sounding cable I'v ever listen to.
My partner does not listen very often due to fast listening fattigue caused by the extreme High-end gear I use to have.
Now she listen more often and enjoy every seccond of it.
The system: VRDS 25X, Oracle Delphi/IKEDA IT-345, ESL's all mine.
Spectral DMC 12, Plinius SA-102 From the hi-fi store. (a Friend)
If I manage to make a picture, Ill post it for you guy's.
Regards,
Audiofanatic ;) |
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| Audiofanatic |
P.S. I forgot the Shelter 901 MC !
Audiofanatic ;) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Since I'm often much nicer to animals than to people...
Copyright: Jan Allaerts.
Entirely handmade in Belgium. |
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| fdegrove |
| Copyright: Jan Allaerts. |
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| mrfeedback |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi Eric,
What you may notice with well shielded I/C cable is a lessening of electronic hash giving a deeper, wider soundstage.
The acoustical environment of the recording venue becomes more easily discernable, all in all the music becomes more enjoyable, less electronic, if you like.
Again, this could be system/environment depending...
Please, let us know what you think after your gave the shielding a try.
Cheers,;) |
I am getting a very nicely deep and wide soundstage at present (surround too), and delightful center imaging too - extensive and sensible room treatment helps all round of course.
I am living in a radio quiet environment, and running an isolation transformer (2kVA), mains filter (15A rated) and variac (3kVA).
I had my sound engineer student friend around today (he has worked for several years doing live sound - the degree course is a formality for him and he does have superbly discriminating ears), and he loves the present interconnects, and commented that there is no glare at all, and the depth and width imaging are superb.
When I told him of forum members saying that they cannot hear differences in cables he laughed his head off, and added "What, are those turkeys deaf or something ?.
The wire that I used is tin-plated (only found this out when I came to do the terminating - Doh), and to my ear just that tiny little bit dullish sounding perhaps.
The next ones will be plain copper and shielded, and I'll see what I get.
Cheers, Eric. |
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| Audiofanatic |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
Since I'm often much nicer to animals than to people...
Copyright: Jan Allaerts.
Entirely handmade in Belgium. |
Hi Frank,
What do you mean with the above?
You don't have to be nice to me;) Frank If you don't want to, aslong as you are to animals I'll be very happy. Thanks!
BTW. Nice hand made MC you have there, did you try it out / compair it to an otherone? and if so, how does it sound?
:bigeyes: Totaly ot of topic:bigeyes: sorry guys.
Audiofanatic;)
José[/list] |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | What do you mean with the above? |
My twisted way of making you drool over all that splendor....
| quote: | | BTW. Nice hand made MC you have there, did you try it out / compair it to an otherone? and if so, how does it sound? |
Sure, and not just me.
If you care to vist Jan Allaerts site:
J.ALLAERTS.
Too me personally, it's the best MC I've ever heard or had.
Just don't ask the price.:rolleyes:
I'd never heard about the Shelter cartridges, did a google and it turns out to be much appreciated by the vinyl addicts.
To get back on topic:
Has anyone compared solid core to multi-strand wire?
What are the observations?
Eric,
Our national (used to anyway) telecoms company Belgacom uses a cable that may fit the bill for you:
It uses four colourcoded solid-core copper conductors + one bare copper wire of the same diameter as the others.
Looks like 0.6mm to me but haven't measured.
The bare copperwire is probably used as a drain wire.
The insulation feels like some polyvinyl to me, I could give you the reference for it but I doubt it would be helpful...looks like a rebrand job.
Anyways, it should be easy enough to find a similar one at Belden & Co.:)
Cheers,;) |
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| Audiofanatic |
Hi Frank,
Thanks so much for telling me about the Jan Allaerts MC.
I went to google and found his site. What a guy! He makes nice art!
BTW, I've bin working and saving for more than 10 (ten) years, to buy these hifi gears second hand. I just wanted to shear my experience with you guys, I was not showing off, or give you the impresion that I have or own more than you guys.
(Ik kan heel wat hebben, ik waardeer 't oprecht)
Audiofanatic ;) |
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| mrfeedback |
Hi Frank| quote: | Has anyone compared solid core to multi-strand wire?
What are the observations? |
Yeah, in my experince, multi-strand can sound 'noisey' or 'scattered' when compared to solid strands.
This 'noise' or 'scattering' can inhibit imaging (all kinds) and add an unpleasant 'dirt' to the whole thing in my experience.
| quote: | | It uses four colourcoded solid-core copper conductors + one bare copper wire of the same diameter as the others. |
Thanks, but I am expressly using the one strand of the one colour and type of wire so that the copper and insulation are coming from the ONE common source.
I am very deliberately avoiding the variables of differing wire source ingots, and differing dielectric properties due to added dyes.
This is to preserve complete consistency and balancing (cancellation) of any directional properties, and I would say that this is well achieved in the present examples that I am currently listening to.
It will be a few days before I get to make a plain copper pvc insulated telephone wire pair, and at present I don't have any suitable gauge magnet wire, though I expect this is probably the best (most neutral) sounding.
Eric. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Yeah, in my experince, multi-strand can sound 'noisey' or 'scattered' when compared to solid strands. |
In my experience too, even for things like powercords.
Solid core sounds much more cohesive as if "cut from one piece of cloth".
Multistrand seems to suffer from a diffuse, foggy sound in comparison.
This may be due to microphony, probably diodic effects as well.
| quote: | | This is to preserve complete consistency and balancing (cancellation) of any directional properties, and I would say that this is well achieved in the present examples that I am currently listening to. |
I concur with your theory, in the case of my own cables the poliimide insulated wires are always from the same spool so that amounts to the same as you do.
| quote: | | and at present I don't have any suitable gauge magnet wire, though I expect this is probably the best (most neutral) sounding |
Take your time, I use mostly this poliimide insulator (AKA Kapton TM).
Peter Quortrop from Audionote U.K. is said to prefer polyurethane .
I haven't compared those but the Kapton is a pain to strip whereas chemicals to strip enamelled wire are much easier to work with and readily available.
Looking forward to hear your results.
Cheers,;) |
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| mrfeedback |
What diameter Kapton insulated wire are you using ?.
Eric. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | What diameter Kapton insulated wire are you using ?. |
1mm.
Mainly as speaker wire and it's silver as well.
For interconnect I use 0.6mm PTFE coated...you don't like that, I know.
I'm not sure if my friend stocks other diameters, I can ask.
If it's copper you need than that should not be any trouble, he can order that at the factory if not already in stock.
Cheers,;) |
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